Topic: One Flaw in BBM?

[BBBOY]

This made me curious so I read the copy of the screenplay that I have, from the time Ennis and Alma married until they divorced.  Surprise, this scene was not in it...there was a scene where Monroe delivered groceries to Alma and a scene where Alma and Monroe are flirting in the grocery store until Ennis comes in to buy some cigarettes.  So it seems as if this scene developed during the filming or before the screenplay was finalized.  Don't know what edition of the screenplay mine was - it was dated '03, screenplays do evolve...

Damn jerasjr, I'd love to see a copy of your screenplay. All I have is the "official" version in the book.

[BBBOY]

Is that really the way it is?

I'm going to have to say no. And this is why: I think an author has a vision he/she wants to express or share. Once the work is completed and put 'out there', of course they'll hope that it will be well recieved and understood. But every story has multiple layers because every person who reads it brings his or her own personal experience and interpretation to it. There is not necessarily a 'wrong' perception of a story - it is what the reader makes of it. And I have to believe that an author would be happy that people were moved and inspired by his/her work enough to contemplate it on a deeper level. And we are obviously not just exhibiting academic curiosity when we discuss this story - it has quite clearly touched our hearts. So I have to think Annie Proulx would be very happy indeed to see the kinds of discussions her story has inspired and the way that her characters live (in various ways) in our hearts.

Well said darlin'.   

[welshwitch]

The advice you always give literature students is that they can discuss a text and say whatever they like about it, as long as they can justify what they say by reference to the text. It's also possible to extrapolate and theorize, but these are more speculative, need to be done with care, and always need to be labelled as speculation not fact. The one thing you can't do is read the terxt as you wish, and twist it to make it "prove" whatever you feel strongly about. Nor of course can you treat the characters as if they are real and have a life outside the text. By and large I think on here we base what we say on the text, movie or ss, and the speculation and extrapolation that occurs is rooted in those.

I don't subscribe to the idea that there are no wrong interpretations. I've read enough on exam papers to recognise that there are. I'll just instance the whole center taught by some feminist who said that Shakespeare marginalized women because he was part of a patriarchal culture ( yes, I know, yawn, yawn, dreary jargon instead of thought) but also that this explained why Shakespeare's women never spoke. The eg cited was Miranda in "The Tempest", their set play. This isn't a valid interpretation, it's just PC nonsense. 

[EnnisTwist]

I think too that it should have been that 'Jack waiting for him' scene.. It would make so much more sense that way.. this way that whole scene seems kinda out of place to me.

[Jennis]

  I am new here, so I tried to research if this subject had ever been discussed.  I'm sure it has, but I couldn't find it, so here goes. But I've wondered about this ever since the time of the beginning (Brokeback's release ).

   The scene where Ennis comes into the grocery store carrying the kids to give them to Alma was put in an earlier time in the movie.  Originally, it was supposed to be that Jack was waiting in the truck for Ennis---that was the reason Ennis was in such a hurry to get the kids to Alma.

  But for some reason, Ang Lee decided to put that scene in before Jack shows up, so the reason Ennis does that, is unclear.

   I love that scene---everything about it---the darling "Condiments."  and the exquisite look on Ennis face as he stares at Alma after she asks "What about my job?"

  But I really think that this is the one and only flaw in Ang Lee's vision. This scene should absolutely have been placed in its proper time---Ennis is frantic to get the kids taken care of so that he can go off with Jack.

  What do you all think?

Shelley

Shelley,
I remember reading that too.I also thought it the first time i watched the film.I didn't know the story or anything about it and for some reason i just thought Ennis was rushing in to get away to be with Jack although they were not even reunited at that stage.It just struck me.I don't know why.

Anyway,the story was put on Wranglers not long after BBM first came out.I did keep it in actual fact so it's in
one of my folders.If you can't find it in the archives over at Wranglers,i will dig it out for you.
If you are still around?

Jennis.x

[Condiments]

  I am new here, so I tried to research if this subject had ever been discussed.  I'm sure it has, but I couldn't find it, so here goes. But I've wondered about this ever since the time of the beginning (Brokeback's release ).

   The scene where Ennis comes into the grocery store carrying the kids to give them to Alma was put in an earlier time in the movie.  Originally, it was supposed to be that Jack was waiting in the truck for Ennis---that was the reason Ennis was in such a hurry to get the kids to Alma.

  But for some reason, Ang Lee decided to put that scene in before Jack shows up, so the reason Ennis does that, is unclear.

   I love that scene---everything about it---the darling "Condiments."  and the exquisite look on Ennis face as he stares at Alma after she asks "What about my job?"

  But I really think that this is the one and only flaw in Ang Lee's vision. This scene should absolutely have been placed in its proper time---Ennis is frantic to get the kids taken care of so that he can go off with Jack.

  What do you all think?

Shelley

Shelley,
I remember reading that too.I also thought it the first time i watched the film.I didn't know the story or anything about it and for some reason i just thought Ennis was rushing in to get away to be with Jack although they were not even reunited at that stage.It just struck me.I don't know why.

Anyway,the story was put on Wranglers not long after BBM first came out.I did keep it in actual fact so it's in
one of my folders.If you can't find it in the archives over at Wranglers,i will dig it out for you.
If you are still around?

Jennis.x

Hi Jennis, this is still Shelley, but I decided to change my name to "Condiments". 

Yes, I would love to know the actual story behind this change of scene. Very cool...I too always saw that scene as Ennis frantic to get to Jack---even before I ever heard of the scene rearrangement.

Condiments (the BBM fan formerly known as Shelley)

[jerasjr]

Isn't the "reason" given in the film that Ennis had to work???  It shows the time as it was - the man's work was more important than the woman's, and she was left to make the arrangements for the kids...believe it or not people that's the way it was.

[tpe]

Isn't the "reason" given in the film that Ennis had to work???  It shows the time as it was - the man's work was more important than the woman's, and she was left to make the arrangements for the kids...believe it or not people that's the way it was.

I do think the scene still works, if just to illustrate what you have said.  Also (as I mentioned previously), if is a contrast to the later scene when Ennis sacrifices potential work by going with Jack on their first fishing trip.  The implication is clear, IMO: Jack was more important than Alma as far as Ennis's time was concerned.

[Jennis]

  I am new here, so I tried to research if this subject had ever been discussed.  I'm sure it has, but I couldn't find it, so here goes. But I've wondered about this ever since the time of the beginning (Brokeback's release ).

   The scene where Ennis comes into the grocery store carrying the kids to give them to Alma was put in an earlier time in the movie.  Originally, it was supposed to be that Jack was waiting in the truck for Ennis---that was the reason Ennis was in such a hurry to get the kids to Alma.

  But for some reason, Ang Lee decided to put that scene in before Jack shows up, so the reason Ennis does that, is unclear.

   I love that scene---everything about it---the darling "Condiments."  and the exquisite look on Ennis face as he stares at Alma after she asks "What about my job?"

  But I really think that this is the one and only flaw in Ang Lee's vision. This scene should absolutely have been placed in its proper time---Ennis is frantic to get the kids taken care of so that he can go off with Jack.

  What do you all think?

Shelley

Shelley,
I remember reading that too.I also thought it the first time i watched the film.I didn't know the story or anything about it and for some reason i just thought Ennis was rushing in to get away to be with Jack although they were not even reunited at that stage.It just struck me.I don't know why.

Anyway,the story was put on Wranglers not long after BBM first came out.I did keep it in actual fact so it's in
one of my folders.If you can't find it in the archives over at Wranglers,i will dig it out for you.
If you are still around?

Jennis.x

Hi Jennis, this is still Shelley, but I decided to change my name to "Condiments". 

Yes, I would love to know the actual story behind this change of scene. Very cool...I too always saw that scene as Ennis frantic to get to Jack---even before I ever heard of the scene rearrangement.

Condiments (the BBM fan formerly known as Shelley)

Hi Shelley/Condiments

Yes,i found it.Here is what was posted on wranglers early February.

I don't know how much is true,but it's interesting stuff.Let me know what you think

Jennis.x


DVD extras?
I found this on another forum. It was an answer given in response to the question, "What happened to scenes that were in the commercial but not in the movie"(e.g. Jake shirtless standing over a stream).
I can't vouch for the truth of it, but it seems like it's the truth.:

"If you can believe it, more than 40 minutes of film did not make into the final version. The shots you are referring to are just among a few that Ang Lee felt "drew conclusions" he wanted the audience to interpret.

The shirtless shot from the bridge is neither Heath or Jake but a body double. It was shot the same day as the skinny-dipping scene. This was the two week period Gyllenhaal was missing from location and Lee shot around him.
It was meant to be from Ennis's vantage point looking at Jack. You'll notice that we never catch Ennis eyeing Jack in desire.

Some other notes:
The bar scene in which Jack meets Lureen was cut extensively.

There is also a scene where Jack encounters the "Rodeo Clown" and his buddies outside of the bar and they block his path only to let him through in laughter.

Mechanics outside of the work trailer in Signal, WY, gawk at Jack as he leaves looking for work and Ennis the second Summer in 1964.

In a strange editing maneuver, The scene in which Ennis drops off the children to Alma at the store with the explaination that he's needed immediately at work is linked to an scene where Jake and Heath are seen driving in Ennis's truck. This would be a another impromptu get together after their initial reunion. The added scenes were dropped entirely from the film but the first scene, mentioned above, would remain.

Another scene not included was an exchange between Jack and Lureen's father prior to the Thanksgiving Day blow-up. Also another of Lureen convincing her father to hire Jack.

As far as sex scenes, besides a few different angles, there was nothing else shot. "





 

[Condiments]

Hi Shelley/Condiments

Yes,i found it.Here is what was posted on wranglers early February.

I don't know how much is true,but it's interesting stuff.Let me know what you think

Jennis.x


DVD extras?
I found this on another forum. It was an answer given in response to the question, "What happened to scenes that were in the commercial but not in the movie"(e.g. Jake shirtless standing over a stream).
I can't vouch for the truth of it, but it seems like it's the truth.:

"If you can believe it, more than 40 minutes of film did not make into the final version. The shots you are referring to are just among a few that Ang Lee felt "drew conclusions" he wanted the audience to interpret.

The shirtless shot from the bridge is neither Heath or Jake but a body double. It was shot the same day as the skinny-dipping scene. This was the two week period Gyllenhaal was missing from location and Lee shot around him.
It was meant to be from Ennis's vantage point looking at Jack. You'll notice that we never catch Ennis eyeing Jack in desire.

Some other notes:
The bar scene in which Jack meets Lureen was cut extensively.

There is also a scene where Jack encounters the "Rodeo Clown" and his buddies outside of the bar and they block his path only to let him through in laughter.

Mechanics outside of the work trailer in Signal, WY, gawk at Jack as he leaves looking for work and Ennis the second Summer in 1964.

In a strange editing maneuver, The scene in which Ennis drops off the children to Alma at the store with the explaination that he's needed immediately at work is linked to an scene where Jake and Heath are seen driving in Ennis's truck. This would be a another impromptu get together after their initial reunion. The added scenes were dropped entirely from the film but the first scene, mentioned above, would remain.

Another scene not included was an exchange between Jack and Lureen's father prior to the Thanksgiving Day blow-up. Also another of Lureen convincing her father to hire Jack.

As far as sex scenes, besides a few different angles, there was nothing else shot. "

Jennis,

What a sweetheart!

I'm thrilled to read the information you found.  How cool is all that?
I especially love the things about the change of the grocery store scene, which has bothered me from my first viewing of the movie---it just didn't feel fully-realized. Ennis's level of excitement and his empassioned determination did not fit with his just getting to work!

Thank you. thank you for finding that.

Shelley (or condiments, but not ketchup)

[Jennis]

Jennis,

What a sweetheart!

I'm thrilled to read the information you found.  How cool is all that?
I especially love the things about the change of the grocery store scene, which has bothered me from my first viewing of the movie---it just didn't feel fully-realized. Ennis's level of excitement and his empassioned determination did not fit with his just getting to work!

Thank you. thank you for finding that.

Shelley (or condiments, but not ketchup)

You're welcome
I knew i kept it.lol

I know what you mean.Ennis seemed to be chomping at the bit to get away.
Most of his scenes where he was off to meet Jack had him rushing around and
couldn't get out of the door fast enough.

Jennis.x

[welshwitch]

Too afraid of giving something away once he knew he was going to meet Jack? Or too full of guilt to talk to Alma once Jack was about to re-enter his life ? There's a kid of suppressed fury, almost madness, in that look he gives Alma when he's talking about his job - it seems to be less about getting up to the ranch than something much more important. After all, he's often risked losing his job, or maybe has lost some, by dropping everything to meet Jack.