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Author Topic: Why did he come back with Jack?  (Read 15081 times)

Offline FulOfSadness

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Why did he come back with Jack?
« on: Sep 20, 2006, 07:11 PM »
Okay, right before the SNIT, Ennis is in camp, when he is supposed to be up with the sheep. Why did he come back with Jack if he 'ain't queer' and he wasn't looking for something? I think, as i much don't want to admit it, is that Ennis does not come to Jack out of the blue. I think him and Jack kind of accepted that they were going to be butt buddies, before Ennis feels 'hungry for love' and then waltzes on into the tent. In the SS, Proulx points out that during one coupling, is when Jack/Ennis say "This is a one shot thing we got going on here", and etc. this means they were already 'together' when they said this. So now, though i don't want to think it, i guess the SNIT really isn't as sad as i had thought, because Ennis wasn't really contridicting himself, he was just following their 'sex that they don't talk about' Am i making sense?
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Offline BBBOY

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #1 on: Sep 20, 2006, 08:33 PM »
FoS, you ask a very good question here. In the SS the boys make their statements that they aren't queer and then proceed to have sex all summer. Ms. Proulx is a Mistress of understated words. The movie had to flesh it out to everyone's advantage. The whole movie is just an expansion of who and what these two boys were and what they had to face. I think it's easy to imagine how the SS Ennis must have felt the morning after FINT. He was appalled at what had happened, but at the same time must have been confused at his own feelings and responses. At some point he had to come to terms, in a small part, with exactly what he was feeling. The movie simply shows the conflict and turmoil he was going through and then the resolution in the SNIT. Ennis still has not accepted who he is, but he has accepted what he wants. He was in the camp for supper, but couldn't leave. The power of the love was already in control. IMHO.
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There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline FulOfSadness

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #2 on: Sep 20, 2006, 08:52 PM »
Quote from: BBBOY on Sep 20, 2006, 08:33 PM
FoS, you ask a very good question here. In the SS the boys make their statements that they aren't queer and then proceed to have sex all summer. Ms. Proulx is a Mistress of understated words. The movie had to flesh it out to everyone's advantage. The whole movie is just an expansion of who and what these two boys were and what they had to face. I think it's easy to imagine how the SS Ennis must have felt the morning after FINT. He was appalled at what had happened, but at the same time must have been confused at his own feelings and responses. At some point he had to come to terms, in a small part, with exactly what he was feeling. The movie simply shows the conflict and turmoil he was going through and then the resolution in the SNIT. Ennis still has not accepted who he is, but he has accepted what he wants. He was in the camp for supper, but couldn't leave. The power of the love was already in control. IMHO.

I see...
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"The bitterest tears shed over graves are for words left unsaid and deeds left undone."
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Offline BBBOY

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #3 on: Sep 20, 2006, 09:34 PM »
Quote from: FulOfSadness on Sep 20, 2006, 08:52 PM
Quote from: BBBOY on Sep 20, 2006, 08:33 PM
FoS, you ask a very good question here. In the SS the boys make their statements that they aren't queer and then proceed to have sex all summer. Ms. Proulx is a Mistress of understated words. The movie had to flesh it out to everyone's advantage. The whole movie is just an expansion of who and what these two boys were and what they had to face. I think it's easy to imagine how the SS Ennis must have felt the morning after FINT. He was appalled at what had happened, but at the same time must have been confused at his own feelings and responses. At some point he had to come to terms, in a small part, with exactly what he was feeling. The movie simply shows the conflict and turmoil he was going through and then the resolution in the SNIT. Ennis still has not accepted who he is, but he has accepted what he wants. He was in the camp for supper, but couldn't leave. The power of the love was already in control. IMHO.

I see...

I know what it is like to be 16 and gay, with no way to let it out. I know what it is like to be 19 and then 22. At least you can talk about it now, here. I had no place to turn to and no one to look to. It still sucks, I'm sure, but have hope.
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There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline chameau

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #4 on: Sep 20, 2006, 09:41 PM »
(OT) Well said Rick, I'm 100% with you on that one  O0, end of (OT)
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Offline BBBOY

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #5 on: Sep 20, 2006, 09:43 PM »
Quote from: chameau on Sep 20, 2006, 09:41 PM
(OT) Well said Rick, I'm 100% with you on that one  O0, end of (OT)

end of ot.  O0
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There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline tpe

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #6 on: Sep 21, 2006, 07:23 AM »


This echoes real life, IMO: in that we never always do what we say we do; we are never always the person that we say we are or would want to believe that we are.

The human mind and the human heart can be so compartmentalized.  They are contradictions, but they allow us to live our lives in a way that we can stand it.



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Offline welshwitch

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #7 on: Sep 21, 2006, 09:13 AM »
Reminds me of the quotation."We all live lives of quiet desperation," partly because we know what is expected of us or what we expect of ourself but often do something else; if what we should do and what we want to do come into conflict, we often do the latter than feel a sense of guilt that we didn't do the formere. This is the conflict mirrored in Ennis's actions at this point.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #8 on: Sep 21, 2006, 03:17 PM »
Quote from: welshwitch on Sep 21, 2006, 09:13 AM
Reminds me of the quotation."We all live lives of quiet desperation," partly because we know what is expected of us or what we expect of ourself but often do something else; if what we should do and what we want to do come into conflict, we often do the latter than feel a sense of guilt that we didn't do the formere. This is the conflict mirrored in Ennis's actions at this point.

I believe so.  We also see this in Jack.  They are so human in this regard.  Contradictions are left unresolved...

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Offline BBBOY

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #9 on: Sep 21, 2006, 09:13 PM »
Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Thank you Annie Proulx.
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There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

greenfrog

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #10 on: Sep 21, 2006, 09:20 PM »
Quote from: BBBOY on Sep 21, 2006, 09:13 PM
Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Thank you Annie Proulx.

Ditto  ^f^
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Offline tpe

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #11 on: Sep 22, 2006, 06:58 AM »
Quote from: greenfrog on Sep 21, 2006, 09:20 PM
Quote from: BBBOY on Sep 21, 2006, 09:13 PM
Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved. Thank you Annie Proulx.

Ditto  ^f^

Sometimes, it is better this way, because you do get the sense that life not always ties up very neatly -- especially where one's individual actions are concerned.  Many of the other characters, besides Ennis, also exhibit this kind of seemingly contradictory behavior. 

In any case, Ennis probably justified everything by a need for intimacy and that it would only last for one summer.  It probably genuinely surprised him that his feeling remained strong after that -- most especially in the Reunion scene/kiss.  It appeared to me that the kiss was unplanned  and spontaneous.  He must have been just as surprised as Jack...

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Offline FulOfSadness

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #12 on: Sep 22, 2006, 05:53 PM »
I understand the whole 'longing for love' which makes the SNIT one of the saddest moments in the movie, i just didn't get why he was at camp when he was suppose to be up with the sheep
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Offline CrimsonSky

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #13 on: Sep 22, 2006, 06:36 PM »
Quote from: FulOfSadness on Sep 22, 2006, 05:53 PM
I understand the whole 'longing for love' which makes the SNIT one of the saddest moments in the movie, i just didn't get why he was at camp when he was suppose to be up with the sheep

I think he just went for supper, even if he never wanted to see Jack again, he still had to eat, and he'd left in too much of a hurry to have breakfast that morning ::) I think they finished eating and Jack went to bed, leaving it up to Ennis if he followed him or not, Jack knew it was something Ennis had to figure out for himself, without feeling that Jack was putting pressure on him.Also that way, if Ennis decided to leave,Jack wouldn't have to go through any awkward "see you for breakfast" scene, like the previous morning,cause he would've been heartbroken if he had to watch Ennis ride away from him again :\'( He must have been feeling sick with nerves, lying there wondering what Ennis was going to do, then the relief and the joy of seeing Ennis approaching the tent, seeing how scared and nervous he was, but realising that despite all that, Ennis was there, and his longing for Jack was strong enough for him to overcome his fears (well, for the time being anyway)...Sorry, I'm rambling again, just thinking about SNIT makes me lose it :-[   
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There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Offline chameau

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #14 on: Sep 22, 2006, 06:40 PM »
It's very well explicated Crimsonsky and there's nothing to be sorry.  I cannot watch SNIT without cring...  :-\\
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Offline CrimsonSky

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #15 on: Sep 22, 2006, 07:03 PM »
Quote from: chameau on Sep 22, 2006, 06:40 PM
It's very well explicated Crimsonsky and there's nothing to be sorry.  I cannot watch SNIT without cring...  :-\\

Thank you :) SNIT just brings out so many feelings and emotions in the boys, it's an emotional rollercoaster to watch,but at the same time, I can't help watching it again and again, it's the most beautiful scene from any film I've ever seen, not that I'm a big movie buff, but still... <^( Here I go again, time to hit the hay now I think! :-[
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There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Offline FulOfSadness

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #16 on: Sep 22, 2006, 07:20 PM »
yeah, the SNIT is my third favorite scene. (only behind The nostalgia scene (shirt smelling) and the ending, both surpass the SNIT in sadness, IMO, but its a great scene as well) I love too many scenes in the movie, but this is my third favorite. All the inarticualteable sadness/longing... its too much.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #17 on: Sep 23, 2006, 05:01 PM »
Quote from: FulOfSadness on Sep 22, 2006, 05:53 PM
I understand the whole 'longing for love' which makes the SNIT one of the saddest moments in the movie, i just didn't get why he was at camp when he was suppose to be up with the sheep

I think it was because he knew what he wanted that night, and was so mortified to realize how he felt...

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Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #18 on: Sep 26, 2006, 05:34 AM »
Ennis could'nt accept what he was  feeling after FNIT. He knew he felt something , and it felt good.Everything Ennis had ever been taught growing up went against these feelings he had for Jack. He felt he was'nt suppose to feel good about it,or even be allowed to feel good about it.Deeply ingrained were his homophobic teachings." you know I aint queer" Whatever "queer" meant to Ennis at that moment was'nt a good thing, but the oneshot remark got drowned out by those "things that Jack did or said. He probably thought at some point or came to terms with the part of him that had to admit his father was  wrong for feeling the way he did about "queers" because here was Jack Twist, Kind,patient,loving, funny compassionate and .......queer. And he was masculine just like he was.
, not exacally what Ennis expected a queer man to be. Yes, he was confused when he entered that tent, but a part of him was changed and open to whatever this man had to offer. He soon grew protective towards Jack and their "friendship" , and with Jack's wonderful patience guided Ennis into a loving relationship. IMHO ,I saw an unexpectd suprise in both their eyes that this could actually be happening to them both.

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Offline tpe

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #19 on: Sep 26, 2006, 06:46 AM »
Quote from: aintfoolin on Sep 26, 2006, 05:34 AM
Ennis could'nt accept what he was  feeling after FNIT. He knew he felt something , and it felt good.Everything Ennis had ever been taught growing up went against these feelings he had for Jack. He felt he was'nt suppose to feel good about it,or even be allowed to feel good about it.Deeply ingrained were his homophobic teachings." you know I aint queer" Whatever "queer" meant to Ennis at that moment was'nt a good thing, but the oneshot remark got drowned out by those "things that Jack did or said. He probably thought at some point or came to terms with the part of him that had to admit his father was  wrong for feeling the way he did about "queers" because here was Jack Twist, Kind,patient,loving, funny compassionate and .......queer. And he was masculine just like he was.
, not exacally what Ennis expected a queer man to be. Yes, he was confused when he entered that tent, but a part of him was changed and open to whatever this man had to offer. He soon grew protective towards Jack and their "friendship" , and with Jack's wonderful patience guided Ennis into a loving relationship. IMHO ,I saw an unexpectd suprise in both their eyes that this could actually be happening to them both.

I do think Jack spoke in whispers and was unusually gentle during the SNIT in order not to startle or scare Ennis.  He understood that any abrupt motions like the one in the FNIT would have disturbed Ennis.  Ennis was ceertainly thinking things out up to the last moment before he entered the tent.  In the SNIT, Jack indeed showed patience and an understanding of Ennis's inner doubts.

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Offline FulOfSadness

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #20 on: Sep 26, 2006, 06:14 PM »
I think Jack was very gentle for all the same reasons. What a beautiful moment. Another message possibly derived from BBM is that nothing ends up the way you planned it (Jack dies, Ennis is gay, even though his father forced that hate into him, and Ennis is bereft.) So sad that they could only love on Brokeback Mountain :X
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Offline ksxks

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #21 on: Sep 26, 2006, 06:55 PM »
Quote from: CrimsonSky on Sep 22, 2006, 06:36 PM
Quote from: FulOfSadness on Sep 22, 2006, 05:53 PM
I understand the whole 'longing for love' which makes the SNIT one of the saddest moments in the movie, i just didn't get why he was at camp when he was suppose to be up with the sheep

I think he just went for supper, even if he never wanted to see Jack again, he still had to eat, and he'd left in too much of a hurry to have breakfast that morning ::) I think they finished eating and Jack went to bed, leaving it up to Ennis if he followed him or not, Jack knew it was something Ennis had to figure out for himself, without feeling that Jack was putting pressure on him.Also that way, if Ennis decided to leave,Jack wouldn't have to go through any awkward "see you for breakfast" scene, like the previous morning,cause he would've been heartbroken if he had to watch Ennis ride away from him again :\'( He must have been feeling sick with nerves, lying there wondering what Ennis was going to do, then the relief and the joy of seeing Ennis approaching the tent, seeing how scared and nervous he was, but realising that despite all that, Ennis was there, and his longing for Jack was strong enough for him to overcome his fears (well, for the time being anyway)...Sorry, I'm rambling again, just thinking about SNIT makes me lose it :-[   

Just reading your thinking about SNIT has me all...melted inside.

kathy
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Offline BBBOY

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Re: Why did he come back with Jack?
« Reply #22 on: Sep 26, 2006, 09:14 PM »
Quote from: CrimsonSky on Sep 22, 2006, 06:36 PM
Sorry, I'm rambling again, just thinking about SNIT makes me lose it :-[   

Ramble away.............you make good sense.  O0
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There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.
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