Topic: Jack's impression of Alma

[tpe]

So you do think Jack resented her very much -- even after the divorce.  After all, she still loomed large in Ennis's excuses in the form of their daughters and his duty to them.  Alma had custody of them, so that she still dictated the compass of Enis's life in a very real sense.

Jack certainly had all the reasons to resent Alma.  And yet, other than that one statement "You and Alma...", I did not think Jack revealed such feelings to Ennis.  I guess it remained an unmentionable...

[welshwitch]

When Jack made that "that's a life" Ennis immediately defended Alma. "This ain't her fault." If you're involved in an affair ( which is what Ennis is) without your husband/wife having done anything to justify your other involvement ( except being, through no fault of their own, the wrong person) , you suffer from guilt. ennis knows what he's doing and knows he's betraying Alma. Thus when she's attacked he leaps to her defence out of guilt. Jack sees this and retreats - he doesn't mention Alma again because whatever he says will be the wrong thing. But underneath he must resent the hold she has over Ennis - the girls, and the need for money to pay child-support, so that Ennis can;t even think of saving for a place of his own.

Sure, if LD comes up with enough to set them up that would be OK if it happens and if Ennis wants to be the poor relation in the partnership, and he may not want to. Alma has put him in this position - why wouldn't Jack resent her? I would.

[Philchel]

Don't forget Ennis said that it's because of Jack that he was confronted to such situation, so he probably didn't really know feeling for a man before meeting Jack.
That's why I think he really loved Alma and was OK with his life (didn't know better).
I don't think Jack sees Alma as an obstacle or 'controlling Ennis'; it's just Ennis not being able to change live.  I respect a lot Alma who finally takes the decision to leave Ennis, knowing she still loves him a lot (must not have been easy at that time/place to be a divorcing woman).

[aintfoolin]

I'm assuming alot here but I bet that over the years Jack often thought about where Ennis and he would be if Ennis had'nt married Alma in the first place. I bet he thought that things would be so much easier if only he could.ve convinced Ennis not marry her, and a part of him resented her even more. In the scene at the end ehere they argue Jack speaks of what could've been " a place of our own" etc.... he finnally voiced his frustration at Ennis himself and rightfully so. Ennis had been the main culprit in all this by not accepting the fact that he was in love with Jack in the first place.

[Philchel]

Do you think so ?

Even if Ennis would have been free he probably would not have accepted a 'relationship', since even if this are his feeling he still finds them 'unnatural/unacceptable'.  What he saw as a young boy (and probably his relationship with his father - which I can just guess) being the main reason.
Even when already divorced he could still have accepted Jack's offer to move to Texas, but he didn't.
There are so many people like Ennis still today, caught in a 'woman-man' relation and no gutts to go for their real love ... and they indeed are the main source of their 'suffering', but easy to say when you are not in that situation where 'taking the risk' could cost you a lot ...

[aintfoolin]

Yes, this is so true. For Ennis to "come out " as far as he did ( the reunion kiss) with Jack was a strech for him. He was so Inward with his feelins partly due to his childhood nightmare of Earl and Ray, imposed on him by his father. As a child being shaped and molded to conform to a culture that stifled emotions in men, he withdrew. This is where Jack was so important to him and his life . Highspirted, outgoing, and aggressive Ennis saw in Jack a man who went after what he wanted.  unlike himself, not afraid to take chances, even though  they did'nt pay off a lot of  the time.

Jack's handling of rejection did'nt shut him down like it did Ennis whereas Ennis's idea of dealing with rejection was turning it inward into himself and he went off somewhere and brooded and sulked over it alone. Punishing himself came easy for him. Being with Jack comforted him I beleive because he knew Jack would'nt reject him no matter how much he punished and hated himself. This is very evident after FNIT. Jack knew and understood Ennis very well.

Following the divorce even Jack, with all his hopefullness began to realized that Ennis was going to be a harder nut to crack than even he thought possible. Alma was now out of the picture and yet he still could'nt completly break Ennis, But because of his love for em, he still did'nt give up. Regrettably he went to Mexico seeking the sexual comforting he needed from Ennis that weekend , and maybe promises of a new life for both.. He was also mad as hell and this was a way to punish Ennis for rejecting him. I wanted to slap some sense into Ennis during this scene.ARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!  How in the hell could anyone turn this dream down with such a cutie.  Crazy! and Unfortunate. Shit , I'm rambling again.   My 2 cents.                         

[tpe]

Wonderful exchange.

Although I personally feel that Jack could NOT have liked Alma, I do agree that Alma was not the main stumbling block -- she was a symptom of the main problem: Ennis's trauma and fears.

And I do think that she did indeed love him, and endured so much because of that love.  It left her embittered.  It probably left her broken inside.

[welshwitch]

You're a romantic; I'm not, over Alma at least. I reckon Jack's impression of her was pretty much of what she was and I think she stayed with Ennis because she had no alternative - when she found one she left him.

[aintfoolin]

Ala had no way of knowing what was gonna happen . No doubt she was hurt in this.

[tpe]

You're a romantic; I'm not, over Alma at least. I reckon Jack's impression of her was pretty much of what she was and I think she stayed with Ennis because she had no alternative - when she found one she left him.

Apologies: I read my last post and realized a typo.  I personally believe that Jack could NOT have liked Alma.  I edited the said post.

[EnnisTwist]

I dunno what Jack expected Alma to be like but i think he was rather surprised to find a nice and normal looking girl and I think he would have gotten along quite well with her under different circumstances.

Concerning that 'you and Alma, that's a life?' comment i think Jack was judging and seeing it from his and Laureens perspective (meaning his life with Laureen was no life and it's gotta be the same for Ennis)

[welshwitch]

I think, having seen Alma and where and how she and Ennis live, he's implying that living with Alma can't begin to compare with what Ennis could have if they shared a life with each other. His marriageis pretty much a formality, but from what he's seen of Ennis's, and the way Ennis has left his family whenever possible to be with him, his only problem being how to fit that in wwith his job - he never mentions alma and the girls - I reckon Jack thinks Ennis's marriage is as much an empty shell as his own.

[carbyville]

I'm assuming alot here but I bet that over the years Jack often thought about where Ennis and he would be if Ennis had'nt married Alma in the first place. I bet he thought that things would be so much easier if only he could.ve convinced Ennis not marry her, and a part of him resented her even more. In the scene at the end ehere they argue Jack speaks of what could've been " a place of our own" etc.... he finnally voiced his frustration at Ennis himself and rightfully so. Ennis had been the main culprit in all this by not accepting the fact that he was in love with Jack in the first place.

I agree with this. In the idealistic mind of Jack Twist, initially it was Alma that stood in the way of his relationship with Ennis. Naturally he resented her. It wasn't until the scene after the divorce when Jack finally realizes that it wasn't Alma standing in the way, it was Ennis himself.

[tpe]

I'm assuming alot here but I bet that over the years Jack often thought about where Ennis and he would be if Ennis had'nt married Alma in the first place. I bet he thought that things would be so much easier if only he could.ve convinced Ennis not marry her, and a part of him resented her even more. In the scene at the end ehere they argue Jack speaks of what could've been " a place of our own" etc.... he finnally voiced his frustration at Ennis himself and rightfully so. Ennis had been the main culprit in all this by not accepting the fact that he was in love with Jack in the first place.

I agree with this. In the idealistic mind of Jack Twist, initially it was Alma that stood in the way of his relationship with Ennis. Naturally he resented her. It wasn't until the scene after the divorce when Jack finally realizes that it wasn't Alma standing in the way, it was Ennis himself.

Yes, I do think Jack only gradually realized that Alma was a symptom, and not the root of the problem.