Topic: Jack's death

[EnnisTwist]

Hey guys!

I was just re-watching BBM again and I noticed sth.
Have you ever thought of Jack's death not being murder or an accident? I mean what if he committed suicide. I know it seems kinda far-fetched but when you think bout it it makes just as much sense as the tire iron or accident theory. Jack was very devastated after he last met Ennis. What if the fact has finally sunk in that he won't ever have a real life with Ennis (he said that he can hardly stand it sometimes..). Another thing is that Jacks dad told Ennis his son was gonna come up and fix the ranch with another guy. This could also be something that made Jack realize in the end that, even though he could not have Ennis, he couldn't be with anyone else either..

I'd love to know what you guys think!!

ps: can somebody recommend me some nice lil sweet and fluffy ff to help me get over watching brokeback and make it all better?? 

[Tom]

I don't think so, Jack was too much of an optimist and considering the time this was set and how religious his background was I don't think he would even think along those lines.

Anyway, the accident and "killing" are both mentioned in Annie Proulx's wonderful story and nothing about suicide. No I can't agree on this idea.

[welshwitch]

No, though there's such a thing as bringing about your own death, possibly at the hands of others. What I'm suggesting is that Jack becomes increasingly more unhappy and reckless, allowing his sexual preferences to become known in a place where they will almost certainly attract disapproval and maybe violence, rather than remaining discreet and appearing as much as possible and as he's done for years a regular guy, working in the family business, with a wife and son, hobby his occasional fishing trips, all from the outside quite acceptable.

Randall is a risk in a way the Mexican prostiture wasn't, just because he's local,knows the same people as Jack and the Newsomes do, and if he and Jack spend time together is liable as Jack is to be recognized and talked about. Jack has apparently avoided such entanglements with people from his own area up till now; is it because he's so miserable about the situation with Ennis that he takes the risk of Randall and the risk of being found out, with all that may imply?

[Mars]

No, though there's such a thing as bringing about your own death, possibly at the hands of others. What I'm suggesting is that Jack becomes increasingly more unhappy and reckless, allowing his sexual preferences to become known in a place where they will almost certainly attract disapproval and maybe violence, rather than remaining discreet and appering as much as possible and as he's done for years a regular guy, working in the family business, with a wife and son, hobby his occasional fishing trips, all from the outside quite acceptable.

Randall is a risk in a way the Mexican prostiture wasn't, just because he's local,knows the same people as Jack and the Newsomes do, and if he and Jack spend time together is liable as Jack is to be recognized and talked about. Jack has apparently avoided such entanglements with people from his own area up till now; is it because he's so miserable about the situation with Ennis that he takes the risk of Randall and the risk of being found out, with all that may imply?

It's a reliable thought....

[dodoLea]

I guess the suicide option didn't ever been in A.P. mind, Jack's character is so optimist,so full of life and also so "irresponsible" for a world where Ennis is so scared of his feelings to let his life go on without doing much ...the Jack death was the only way to end the story for her (I've read it also in another forum discussion reporting an extract of the author interview) and it's for me too, and above all it don't need anything else for working .Tinking about the whole story, the way it was written, the location, the characters and their background,if she had used another end it should been an out of tune note,from a "technical" point of view there wasn't another choice.This made me to think to the end of another discussed story, in its case discussed for the "happy" end chosen by the author.I'm talking about E.M. Forster "Maurice".If we have had that end in BBM, or a similar end,it didn't worked well in A.P. story( the more I think about it the more I'm sure of it), and also in E.M Forster story that end aroused many discussions.

[tpe]

I guess the suicide option didn't ever been in A.P. mind, Jack's character is so optimist,so full of life and also so "irresponsible" for a world where Ennis is so scared of his feelings to let his life go on without doing much ...the Jack death was the only way to end the story for her (I've read it also in another forum discussion reporting an extract of the author interview) and it's for me too, and above all it don't need anything else for working .Tinking about the whole story, the way it was written, the location, the characters and their background,if she had used another end it should been an out of tune note,from a "technical" point of view there wasn't another choice.This made me to think to the end of another discussed story, in its case discussed for the "happy" end chosen by the author.I'm talking about E.M. Forster "Maurice".If we have had that end in BBM, or a similar end,it didn't worked well in A.P. story( the more I think about it the more I'm sure of it), and also in E.M Forster story that end aroused many discussions.

I tend to agree with you and WW.  I like especially WW's last sentence: Jack has apparently avoided such entanglements with people from his own area up till now; is it because he's so miserable about the situation with Ennis that he takes the risk of Randall and the risk of being found out, with all that may imply?.  Jack was taking a risk, but I don't think it was conscious suicide.  But we also should note that there is some meaure of ambiguity in Jack's end -- something quite in keeping with the nuances in the ss.

As for the ending of Maurice, perhaps Forster could have left it a bit open ended.  The fact that his end has a "happy" note is more a device used by the author to make a point about his own personal beliefs.  Perhaps it would have been more universally accessible if Forster left it to the reader's imagination.

[welshwitch]

Lureen's story about the tire exploding would also fit in with this; I can easily imagine Jack changing a wheel carelessly without taking the proper precautions ( there must be some, though I don't know as I've never done it!) or doing it hurriedly and not jacking (!!!) the wheel up properly first. the Mexico trip seems to me to show him as miserable and in some ways partly deadened by his long series of disappointments; the scene with Randall suggests the same to me. It seems logical that he becomes rackless because he has very little he values in life.

[Umi_Slash]

No, though there's such a thing as bringing about your own death, possibly at the hands of others. What I'm suggesting is that Jack becomes increasingly more unhappy and reckless, allowing his sexual preferences to become known in a place where they will almost certainly attract disapproval and maybe violence, rather than remaining discreet and appering as much as possible and as he's done for years a regular guy, working in the family business, with a wife and son, hobby his occasional fishing trips, all from the outside quite acceptable.

Randall is a risk in a way the Mexican prostiture wasn't, just because he's local,knows the same people as Jack and the Newsomes do, and if he and Jack spend time together is liable as Jack is to be recognized and talked about. Jack has apparently avoided such entanglements with people from his own area up till now; is it because he's so miserable about the situation with Ennis that he takes the risk of Randall and the risk of being found out, with all that may imply?

It's a reliable thought....

And a very creppy one too... Thinking of Jack in those last days of his life, taking risks and stuff, it´s kinda scary because he and Ennis were always very careful about their "thing"... In that case, was Ennis the one who was being careful about them??

[welshwitch]

Yes, Ennis never gave anything away to anyone after the reunion kiss and the risk he maybe took going to a nearby motel with Jack. Ennis says so little it would be hard for others to find out much about him, let alone discover his secret.

[jesseanne21]

Hey guys!

I was just re-watching BBM again and I noticed sth.
Have you ever thought of Jack's death not being murder or an accident? I mean what if he committed suicide. I know it seems kinda far-fetched but when you think bout it it makes just as much sense as the tire iron or accident theory. Jack was very devastated after he last met Ennis. What if the fact has finally sunk in that he won't ever have a real life with Ennis (he said that he can hardly stand it sometimes..). Another thing is that Jacks dad told Ennis his son was gonna come up and fix the ranch with another guy. This could also be something that made Jack realize in the end that, even though he could not have Ennis, he couldn't be with anyone else either..

I have wondered about that myself from time to time.  However, I feel Jack, no matter how bad he felt, would never take his on life.

But, anything is possbile...and we really don't know how Jack died. In the short story, AP writes "Ennis didn't know about the accident for months..."  All we have is Lureen's story (tire exploded) and Ennis' imagined fears (tire irons).  Also, "accident" is often used as a euphemism of suicide.

[dodoLea]

I agree with both of you tpe and WW. The 20 years of waiting for an Ennis decision has made him dissatisfide and reckless at the same time (“But f***-all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way.”).IMO Jack'communication to his father about going back to Lightning Flat for building "a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas." was a reaction of their last talk.It also was the same his been in Mexico nevertheless he always continued his "rendezvous" with Ennis, for this reason we continue to wonder what it could been happened if he didn't died. We can imagine everything, the worst and the best, just like Ennis done.The short story and the movie let us know only what Ennis knew about Jack's death.This make me feel so...ah, I don't know how I feel, I can't chooce the right word,neither the thesaurus could help me.
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe,but nothing could be done about it"...we well know the rest.

[welshwitch]

Give us the word in your own language if you know it and we'll try to figure out the equivalent in English. Your English is very good, BTW. And I agree that the ambiguity over Jack's death is important and affects us more than if we knew what had jhappened.

[dodoLea]

Give us the word in your own language if you know it and we'll try to figure out the equivalent in English. Your English is very good, BTW. And I agree that the ambiguity over Jack's death is important and affects us more than if we knew what had happened.

Thank you so much welshwitch      you're very kind, but it'd been hard even for you to find the right word,you know, I'm in that feeling when you'd to do something but you can't do anything cause it's "impossible", frustrating maybe it's the right word but it doesn't explain that feeling well.  :-\

[tpe]

I agree with both of you tpe and WW. The 20 years of waiting for an Ennis decision has made him dissatisfide and reckless at the same time (“But f***-all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way.”).IMO Jack'communication to his father about going back to Lightning Flat for building "a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas." was a reaction of their last talk.It also was the same his been in Mexico nevertheless he always continued his "rendezvous" with Ennis, for this reason we continue to wonder what it could been happened if he didn't died. We can imagine everything, the worst and the best, just like Ennis done.The short story and the movie let us know only what Ennis knew about Jack's death.This make me feel so...ah, I don't know how I feel, I can't chooce the right word,neither the thesaurus could help me.
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe,but nothing could be done about it"...we well know the rest.

Thinking about this more, it also occurred to me that Jack would have had no reason to pursue his plans with Randall if he consciously planned suicide, no?  And as you have said, his accouncing his plans to his parents would seem more a natural reaction to the last meeting and would seem to rule out any plans of suicide...  This is my impression.

[EnnisTwist]

I agree with both of you tpe and WW. The 20 years of waiting for an Ennis decision has made him dissatisfide and reckless at the same time (“But f***-all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way.”).IMO Jack'communication to his father about going back to Lightning Flat for building "a place and help run the ranch, some ranch neighbor a his from down in Texas." was a reaction of their last talk.It also was the same his been in Mexico nevertheless he always continued his "rendezvous" with Ennis, for this reason we continue to wonder what it could been happened if he didn't died. We can imagine everything, the worst and the best, just like Ennis done.The short story and the movie let us know only what Ennis knew about Jack's death.This make me feel so...ah, I don't know how I feel, I can't chooce the right word,neither the thesaurus could help me.
"There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe,but nothing could be done about it"...we well know the rest.

Thinking about this more, it also occurred to me that Jack would have had no reason to pursue his plans with Randall if he consciously planned suicide, no?  And as you have said, his accouncing his plans to his parents would seem more a natural reaction to the last meeting and would seem to rule out any plans of suicide...  This is my impression.

If Jack committed suicide i wouldn't say that it was planded for a long time. It would have been more a out-of-a-situation thing i guess. What if Jack really intended to go through with the Randall & Lightning Flat thing in order to quit Ennis but realized in the end that that neither thing (being with Randall and quitting Ennis) would ever work out in the end.

[tpe]

It is possible.  After all, I base my impression partly on a deleted scene, which showed Jack and Randall embracing right before Jack was murdered.  If we take into account this deleted scene, then we are led to believe (at least from the movie version) that Jack had not given up on Randall right before he died. 

[EnnisTwist]

I don't think so, Jack was too much of an optimist and considering the time this was set and how religious his background was I don't think he would even think along those lines.

Anyway, the accident and "killing" are both mentioned in Annie Proulx's wonderful story and nothing about suicide. No I can't agree on this idea.

It's obvious though that Jack pretty much lost that optimistic, carefree, hoping attitude he had when they were still up on Brokeback. It seemed to me that the small bit of hope he had when they last saw each other was crushed with Ennis' behaviour during that argument. Jack told him that he misses him so much that he can hardly stand it and its obvious that it was the same for Ennis yet still Ennis couldnt even think bout 'fixing the situation instead of standing it'. That's the part to me where Jack lost all remaining hope for ever having someting more with Ennis. I dunno how their relationship would have went on had Jack not died but I doubt that he would have mentioned a 'sweet life' with Ennis for a long time.

The tyre iron and the accident were both mentioned in the story but both from a very subjective POV. With Ennis' past conscerning Rich & Earl and his sort of paranoia he therefore had all his life it is only reasonable that he imagines Jack being murdered by guys with tyre irons.
Laureen can't be too objective either. We don't know how much / if she knew of the true relationship between Jack & Ennis but she might have her reasons for lying to Ennis..

[welshwitch]

she might also, though this is Machiavellian to a degree I don'lt think Lureen is capable of, have deliberately given the impression to Ennis that she was lying, so that his mind would jump to the possibility that she was covering up something - and because he would wonder and worry and never KNOW for certain he would suffer. So she would in that way get her own back on the man who had taken so much of Jack's love away from her. I don't think this is likely but it's an interesting way to lookl at events. Gay-bashing was an ever-present possibility in Ennis's mind and I can't imagine examples of it were unknown in Texas, or elsewhere for that matter, so it would be a real possibility.

[lamusica]

I have often wondered, too, WW, about what you suggested -- that Jack got careless about his relationships.  I think that's what happened.  Someone saw him and acted upon their sick prejudices because Jack was a bit too open about his relationship with Randall ( maybe someone else, too), and the gay bashers in the area took action.  This makes sense to me.  Otherwise, they would not have known about Jack's sexuality, and would not have had any reason to go after him.

[tpe]

Personally, that is indeed what I believe in: that Jack became careless and his end was not a suicide.

 

[welshwitch]

No, I don't think it was suicide; however, when you become careless to a dangerous degree you invite unpleasant consequences. Jack must have known what red-neck attitudes were, thus any overt display of homosexuality would endanger him. Thus my deduction that perhaps by now he just didn't care and took risks knowing the dangers attendant on them, and realising that he might become a victim of violence. Ennis's story of Rich and Earl must have remained with him; had to have, since it had affected Ennis so profoundly and was the basis for his refusal to live with Jack. He knew the dangers from way back, avoided them successfully for years; the only explanation for the attack on him ( if it happened0 was that he'd given himself away because he no longer saw any reason to take care. He'd lost whatever mattered to him and Randall, or anyone like him, wsn't going to complete hislife as Ennis had done.

[Short Leash]

I've only watched the movie a few times since borrowing it a week ago, but, when I was discussing the movie with a co-worker she commented that it was Jack's wife who had Jack killed. I didn't catch that myself, and it seems no one here has either so, I'm just wondering where she could have gotten that idea. I did seem as though she was just making up the discription about how Jack died to cover up her own guilt.

[greenfrog]

Personally, that is indeed what I believe in: that Jack became careless and his end was not a suicide.

 

I don't (personally) know about careless, but I think Jack was starting to get sick of having to hide is feelings away from the world. From that tiny flash we saw of the mechanics in the trailer, I still believe that they are the ones who beat Jack to death.  :\'( :\'( :\'(

I wish we could see that scene. Those men definately saw something that they didn't like and I think it involved both Jack and Randall.

[tpe]

I've only watched the movie a few times since borrowing it a week ago, but, when I was discussing the movie with a co-worker she commented that it was Jack's wife who had Jack killed. I didn't catch that myself, and it seems no one here has either so, I'm just wondering where she could have gotten that idea. I did seem as though she was just making up the discription about how Jack died to cover up her own guilt.

I recall that this topic was the subject of an entire thread...  Well, at least it had been discussed in a number of threads about Lureen...

[tpe]

Personally, that is indeed what I believe in: that Jack became careless and his end was not a suicide.

 

I don't (personally) know about careless, but I think Jack was starting to get sick of having to hide is feelings away from the world. From that tiny flash we saw of the mechanics in the trailer, I still believe that they are the ones who beat Jack to death.  :\'( :\'( :\'(

I wish we could see that scene. Those men definately saw something that they didn't like and I think it involved both Jack and Randall.

Yes, perhaps he did not want to care that much anymore about hiding it -- knowing that Ennis cared so much...

[welshwitch]

I sometimes toy with the idea that at the end Jack sees what constant concealment and  repression and fear have done to Ennis and decides that he's going to reject that paradigm and find a different one for his own life - and that's what leads to his relationship with Randall becoming known and to his death.

[tpe]

I sometimes toy with the idea that at the end Jack sees what constant concealment and  repression and fear have done to Ennis and decides that he's going to reject that paradigm and find a different one for his own life - and that's what leads to his relationship with Randall becoming known and to his death.

I wonder about this myself...

[welshwitch]

Of course whatever chances he takes for himself also affect Ennis - if Jack's actions in any way bring about his own death, they also condemn Ennis to regret and loneliness. But Jack has lost hope of Ennis's ever changing, so perhaps he doesn't consider him as he may have done in the past.