Author Topic: Ennis' Fierce and Possessive Love for Jack - Spoilers (Read 77325 times)

tpe · « **Reply #60 on:** Apr 03, 2006, 05:12 PM »

Quote from: aimi15 on Apr 03, 2006, 04:25 PM

Quote from: pierralex on Apr 03, 2006, 04:22 PM
Quote from: dalemidex on Apr 03, 2006, 03:52 PM

I've often wondered just what Ennis is feeling when he gets up the morning after the first tent scene. Anyone care to speculate?

In my opinion the first thing he think about is : "whao my head, what a fu**ing headache!", and then " uh? why my pants are down? Oh I remember." Then he needs to flee from talking with jack.
As he rides going on find the sheeps, I think he must think a little like this :

it was stange
I liked it
I don't have to, he's a man
he's the best mate I've ever had
it's not good
he's so cute and nice
I marry alma in few months
I've never felt better than when I'm with him
what does he thinks?
I really loved it tonight
what does he think of me?
I'd like to do it again
We're dead if someone learns it
I want to hold him in my arms
I'm supposed to be with a girl and have cildren, not to go with a guy
he started all tonight, maybe he wants more too
my dad would kill me without any hesitation
and what if...
I don't even have to think about it

I ain't queer. I need him.

How touching :'(

Yes, very moving.

frances · « **Reply #61 on:** Apr 03, 2006, 05:26 PM »

That's sooo beautiful, Pierralex.

Merci!

christie wood · « **Reply #62 on:** Apr 04, 2006, 05:10 PM »

Quote from: pierralex on Apr 03, 2006, 04:22 PM

Quote from: dalemidex on Apr 03, 2006, 03:52 PM

I've often wondered just what Ennis is feeling when he gets up the morning after the first tent scene. Anyone care to speculate?

In my opinion the first thing he think about is : "whao my head, what a fu**ing headache!", and then " uh? why my pants are down? Oh I remember." Then he needs to flee from talking with jack.
As he rides going on find the sheeps, I think he must think a little like this :

it was stange
I liked it
I don't have to, he's a man
he's the best mate I've ever had
it's not good
he's so cute and nice
I marry alma in few months
I've never felt better than when I'm with him
what does he thinks?
I really loved it tonight
what does he think of me?
I'd like to do it again
We're dead if someone learns it
I want to hold him in my arms
I'm supposed to be with a girl and have children, not to go with a guy
he started all tonight, maybe he wants more too
my dad would kill me without any hesitation
and what if...
I don't even have to think about it

I ain't queer. I need him.

That is fantastic! So well described. I can just hear Ennis saying all this in his head, can you?

n061857 · « **Reply #63 on:** Apr 05, 2006, 08:02 AM »

Christie, You spoke about how Ennis's shooting of the elk was indicative of his love for Jack in one way. I also see another reason. Ennis is a man who plays by the rules. We see him here clearly breaking the rules for Jack by poaching. Maybe, this is the first situation in which he defies society for Jack?

Stephen · « **Reply #64 on:** Apr 05, 2006, 08:27 AM »

a great insight! Thank you. And yet another reminder of the infinite depths of this film BBM.

christie wood · « **Reply #65 on:** Apr 05, 2006, 08:37 AM »

Quote from: n061857 on Apr 05, 2006, 08:02 AM

Christie, You spoke about how Ennis's shooting of the elk was indicative of his love for Jack in one way. I also see another reason. Ennis is a man who plays by the rules. We see him here clearly breaking the rules for Jack by poaching. Maybe, this is the first situation in which he defies society for Jack?

Oh my gosh, yes! I never thought of it like that before, but you are so right. He even said to Jack "we're supposed to look after the sheep, not eat them" didn't he? And then there he was, going against that completely by shooting the elk. After all, he really didn't have to. They could have survived on beans until the next grocery pick up, even though Jack probably would have moaned. It wasn't like they were starving. So for Ennis to do that, it's a big step for him, and it certainly is a step closer to going further into their developing intimate relationship.

Thanks nancy for bringing that up!!!

dalemidex · « **Reply #66 on:** Apr 05, 2006, 08:53 AM »

Kudos for that excellent observation! Ennis is NOT a rule-breaker, but he clearly did here for Jack.

Just another sign that Ennis, from very early on, felt something serious for Jack. Not to swerve into the "who fell in love first' thread which I've seen here or elsewhere, but more and more I think it was Ennis.

n061857 · « **Reply #67 on:** Apr 05, 2006, 08:57 AM »

Quote from: dalemidex on Apr 05, 2006, 08:53 AM

Kudos for that excellent observation! Ennis is NOT a rule-breaker, but he clearly did here for Jack.

Just another sign that Ennis, from very early on, felt something serious for Jack. Not to swerve into the "who fell in love first' thread which I've seen here or elsewhere, but more and more I think it was Ennis.

I'm so glad you said that. Me, too.

This forum has been invaluable to me in allowing me to see things through Jack's viewpoint. I am so much like Ennis, that I sometimes have trouble understanding Jack to the degree that others do. It's great that others understand Jack so well, that they allow me to see him through their eyes.

Stephen · « **Reply #68 on:** Apr 05, 2006, 09:22 AM »

a wonderful response, n061857! You help me to realize that through this forum I've gained new insights and empathy with every perspective that is posted! And with every detail in the film that is observed, I find depth where I had too casually glanced before!

n061857 · « **Reply #69 on:** Apr 05, 2006, 10:14 AM »

True, Stephen. I feel so blessed to have been able to share ideas with such a vast multitude of intelligient people, who each brings with them their own set of insights based on their experiences, professions, interests, varying cultures, etc.. I remember when I first saw this film, I had so many questions. I didn'y know what to do with them. I went on the Annie Proulx website, thinking that I would have to write to her not expecting a response - and I found a link here. I thank God every day for this website and all the wonderful people on it.

chameau · « **Reply #70 on:** Apr 05, 2006, 10:16 AM »

Thanks for your great postings but we all now are a bit off topic maybe?

n061857 · « **Reply #71 on:** Apr 05, 2006, 10:18 AM »

Sorry, Chameau!

Stephen · « **Reply #72 on:** Apr 05, 2006, 10:19 AM »

Yes! And you just reminded me that I went through the same process! I was so overloaded with feelings and questions and melancholy from BBM that I rushed to Annie Proulx's site hoping to find some salvation there or to just write her agent to get some of the burden off my chest....and there was the ennisjack address.....and here we are: "let the stars shine through...." And where are these words from?

Stephen · « **Reply #73 on:** Apr 05, 2006, 10:23 AM »

Yes, to stay on topic: It's Ennis' fierce love, especially when he threatens Jack's life with the south of the border threat, that really through me when I first saw the film! In fact, I was in shock hearing these words coming from Ennis at what turns out to be his last meeting with Jack.

christie wood · « **Reply #74 on:** Apr 05, 2006, 04:34 PM »

Quote from: Stephen on Apr 05, 2006, 10:23 AM

Yes, to stay on topic: It's Ennis' fierce love, especially when he threatens Jack's life with the south of the border threat, that really through me when I first saw the film! In fact, I was in shock hearing these words coming from Ennis at what turns out to be his last meeting with Jack.

Yes, Stephen, it was so hard to hear them especially after he says what Mexico has "for boys like you". But we know WHY he says this - his unbridled love for Jack, and ultimate jealousy that is out of his control. He cannot bear to think of Jack with another man, but he knows deep down that it's down to him that Jack ever went to Mexico in the first place. If Ennis had allowed himself to love Jack in the way he deserved to be, Mexico would never have been a place for Jack to visit.

This fierce and possessive love of Ennis's is so frustrating too. Jack drops everything to be with Ennis - we know this, as the heartbreaking post-divorce scene shows - and yet Ennis is still able to hurt Jack with words and actions.

Ginevra · « **Reply #75 on:** Apr 06, 2006, 09:47 AM »

Quote from: christie wood on Apr 05, 2006, 04:34 PM

and yet Ennis is still able to hurt Jack with words and actions.

Ennis hurts HIMSELF more. Jack knows it.

donnaread · « **Reply #76 on:** Apr 06, 2006, 12:03 PM »

Quote from: Ginevra on Apr 06, 2006, 09:47 AM

Quote from: christie wood on Apr 05, 2006, 04:34 PM
and yet Ennis is still able to hurt Jack with words and actions.

Ennis hurts HIMSELF more. Jack knows it.

Absolutely...Jack DOES know that Ennis is hurting himself more...who always comforts who? Even after Ennis has verbally attacked Jack about Mexico,Jack is ready to forgive and comfort Ennis when he says "I'm nothin', I'm nowhere"And continues to hold on to him even when Ennis says "Get the f**k off me"...he holds Ennis anyway and says "Damn you Ennis." Jack knows that Ennis is his own worse enemy. And I think that Jack realizes that although he may go with other men himself, Ennis doesn't...that it has always been just Jack for Ennis.

Stephen · « **Reply #77 on:** Apr 06, 2006, 01:25 PM »

And to think we wouldn't even know of Ennis's fierce love for Jack if , after Ennis tells him to lighten up, Jack had not gotten into his diatribe of "this is******of an unsatisfactory situation....". Isn't this fierce love domonstrated only in this breath-taking last scene between the two?

n061857 · « **Reply #78 on:** Apr 06, 2006, 05:48 PM »

Quote from: Stephen on Apr 05, 2006, 10:23 AM

Yes, to stay on topic: It's Ennis' fierce love, especially when he threatens Jack's life with the south of the border threat, that really through me when I first saw the film! In fact, I was in shock hearing these words coming from Ennis at what turns out to be his last meeting with Jack.

I was also so shocked. I thought I had heard it incorrectly and had to listen very intently the second time. Now that is jealousy and possessiveness.

n061857 · « **Reply #79 on:** Apr 06, 2006, 05:52 PM »

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Donne Reed.

Stephen, Isn't it interesting that Ennis needs to be in an emotional collapse to get to the point where he can share these feelings?

Stephen · « **Reply #80 on:** Apr 07, 2006, 07:13 AM »

Yes, and to think it took nearly 20 years to get to this point; and it took nearly as long for Alma, also near emotional collapse, to confront Ennis! And in both cases, Ennis makes the threats! His confrontations with Alma and with Jack were for me the two most unexpected and powerful scenes, and continue to take my breath away after many viewings.

n061857 · « **Reply #81 on:** Apr 07, 2006, 07:29 PM »

These two scenes in addition to the alleyway collapse take my breath away also. There is something about a big strong powerful man crumbling that obviously intensifies the emotion. If I were to crumble like that, noone would even notice! Ha!

Rønnaug · « **Reply #82 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 01:44 PM »

Just need to post so I'll find this again...

SO many things to think about

aintfoolin · « **Reply #83 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 02:48 PM »

I aree. the last scene of them together in the argument , when Jack confesses Mexico to Ennis. ("I did once"), His jealousy of that encounter enrages Ennis to the point of threating violence towards Jack. This is a fierce and possesive love to the max.The look on his face and the stare down WHEW! But Jack stands his ground though,I would'nt have wanted to face that look . NO WAY.

hpv · « **Reply #84 on:** Jul 12, 2006, 03:18 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jul 12, 2006, 02:48 PM

I aree. the last scene of them together in the argument , when Jack confesses Mexico to Ennis. ("I did once"), His jealousy of that encounter enrages Ennis to the point of threating violence towards Jack. This is a fierce and possesive love to the max.The look on his face and the stare down WHEW! But Jack stands his ground though,I would'nt have wanted to face that look . NO WAY.

I totally agree,here, it's the equal force that balance all this,becouse if a woman got that push like Ennis pushed Jack she would be flying down,not just falling....

welshwitch · « **Reply #85 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 05:43 AM »

If we're talking about " possessive", I think the only time Ennis shows he's possessive is after Jack's admitted that he's been to Mexico - that's what the threat comes from, because he hates what Jack's done when he's thought of Jack as his although they're apart most of the time. It's always been a one-shot thing for him, and he's assumed, I think, that it's been the same for Jack - he doesn't at any point till the visit to the Twist ranch know about Randall. I don't include alma, Lureen and Cassie in this because they're an irrelevance to the central Jack/Ennis relationship.

NoReins · « **Reply #86 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 06:09 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jul 13, 2006, 05:43 AM

If we're talking about " possessive", I think the only time Ennis shows he's possessive is after Jack's admitted that he's been to Mexico - that's what the threat comes from, because he hates what Jack's done when he's thought of Jack as his although they're apart most of the time. It's always been a one-shot thing for him, and he's assumed, I think, that it's been the same for Jack - he doesn't at any point till the visit to the Twist ranch know about Randall. I don't include alma, Lureen and Cassie in this because they're an irrelevance to the central Jack/Ennis relationship.

I think you're right. As long as Ennis thinks that Jack is only cheating on him with women everything is ok, but as soon as he finds out that Jack has been with other men two things happen. Firstly, he gets possessive, angry because he wants Jack to be his and his alone. But the scarier thing that happens is that his ingrained homophobia comes out too - as long as it's only the two of them then Ennis can continue to believe that it's a one shot thing and that he's not queer, but if Jack has been with other men then he must be queer which would, in turn, either mean that Ennis was too, or at least that he has feelings for a queer man instead of just for his friend.

Hmmm. I think I may have wandered slightly off topic there, but I think the two things are impossible to separate.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #87 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 06:33 AM »

This is an excellent point! Ennis seems to retreat back to his old thinking with his comment"boys like you". As if he's saying it's only Jack who's queer, not him too.

tpe · « **Reply #88 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 06:42 AM »

I have always wondered how far back did Ennis know about Jack's Mexico trips. From the movie, it looked like it was only during the last meeting. From the short story, it is plausible that he knew about Jack's excursions to Mexico before this, because it may have been included in what Proulx calls those things that were left unsaid for a long time between them (or something like this). Nonetheless, I suppose so long as things remained unspoken, then perhaps Ennis could have tolerated all this. Perhaps what drove him to jelous rage in the end was the temerity of Jack to bring it all out in the open...

Not sure...

aintfoolin · « **Reply #89 on:** Jul 13, 2006, 07:02 AM »

It also shows that Jack has given some thought about these "unspoken things" to me .When he says "I did once" he is nodding as if he wanted to answer Ennis question { better idea? }. to let Ennis know he's had a better idea for awhile now. I think this contributes to Ennis jealousy and rage. His demeanor when He said that was daring to Ennis. IMHO.