Author Topic: about Ennis - Possible Spoilers  (Read 10905 times)

Offline gjz24

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about Ennis - Possible Spoilers
« on: Jan 23, 2006, 05:46 PM »
Hi. I have some questions about Ennis,  I believe he is straight and strange. he does not love woman or man, he only loves Jack. It that really exist in real life? It been a month after watching the movie. I almost get out of thinking about the movie, but this question keep me wondering.
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2006, 12:44 PM by tpe »

Offline tpe

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Re: about Ennis
« Reply #1 on: Jan 23, 2006, 06:13 PM »
Hi. I have some questions about Ennis,  I believe he is straight and strange. he does not love woman or man, he only loves Jack. It that really exist in real life? It been a month after watching the movie. I almost get out of thinking about the movie, but this question keep me wondering.

Hello gjz24, and welcome.

I do think in his own starnge way, Ennis did love his wife and children.  In the movie itself, it is clear from many scenes that Ennis loved Alma Jr.  exceedingly.  The love for his children, after all, are a part of the reason why Ennis' love for Jack was unfulfilled.

But Ennis' great love is indeed Jack.    We must measure this more by seeing how this love survived a lifetime IN SPITE of everything seemingly going against it.  The love was certainly sexual.  But sex was not really an issue with Ennis, since he appeared remarkably faithful to Jack all throughout.  The question then is best viewed outside the context of whether Ennis was straight or gay/bisexual.  He was in love with Jack, IN SPITE of his sex.  Ennis may not have been always comfortable embracing Jack face to face (witness the Motel scene and the 'embrace from behind' scene), but he could not help making a connection.

Ennis loved Jack IN SPITE of himself. That's the beauty and tragedy of it all.
« Last Edit: Jan 23, 2006, 06:15 PM by tpe »

Offline Toadily

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Re: about Ennis
« Reply #2 on: Jan 23, 2006, 06:17 PM »
Hi. I have some questions about Ennis,  I believe he is straight and strange. he does not love woman or man, he only loves Jack. It that really exist in real life? It been a month after watching the movie. I almost get out of thinking about the movie, but this question keep me wondering.

Hello gjz24, and welcome.

I do think in his own starnge way, Ennis did love his wife and children.  In the movie itself, it is clear from many scenes that Ennis loved Alma Jr.  exceedingly.  The love for his children, after all, are a part of the reason why Ennis' love for Jack was unfulfilled.

But Ennis' great love is indeed Jack.    We must measure this more by seeing how this love survived a lifetime IN SPITE of everything seemingly going against it.  The love was certainly sexual.  But sex was not really an issue with Ennis, since he appeared remarkably faithful to Jack all throughout.  The question then is best viewed outside the context of whether Ennis was straight or gay/bisexual.  He was in love with Jack, IN SPITE of his sex.  Ennis may not have been always comfortable embracing Jack face to face (witness the Motel scene and the 'embrace from behind' scene), but he could not help making a connection.

Ennis loved Jack IN SPITE of himself. That's the beauty and tragedy of it all.

Yes, good points.  Proulx makes a point in the famous fire hug scene that Ennis was able to freely show his love cause he was holding Jack from the back-and yes Ang Lee noted htis in Motel scene. 
"it's Love, Blockhead!"
-Pierre Marivaux  The Triumph of Love

"To love an idea is to love it a little more than one should."  -Jean Rostand

Offline tpe

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Re: about Ennis
« Reply #3 on: Jan 23, 2006, 06:37 PM »
Proulx makes a point in the famous fire hug scene that Ennis was able to freely show his love cause he was holding Jack from the back-and yes Ang Lee noted htis in Motel scene. 

Yes, every now and then, Ang Lee balances things out this way in the scenes between Ennis and Jack.  The scenes are remarkably consistent all throughout.  No wonder Gyllenhaal made the analogy with dance choreography with respect to the love scenes with Ledger.

Ennis is such a character, to say the least.

Offline Toadily

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Re: about Ennis
« Reply #4 on: Jan 23, 2006, 06:42 PM »
One thing I keep thinking is how this is the first generation that could have done this movie.
I mean I saw "The Great Escape" the other day again, with Steve McQueen and how the genre of the guy movie was so a part of American culture for so long, and McQueen is considered the modern every man type.  But it's looking so dated, ee gads. 
"it's Love, Blockhead!"
-Pierre Marivaux  The Triumph of Love

"To love an idea is to love it a little more than one should."  -Jean Rostand

Offline gjz24

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Re: about Ennis
« Reply #5 on: Jan 24, 2006, 10:54 AM »
Thanks Tpe. I knew Ennis loves his daughters and wife but the love is different form the love to Jack. I believe Jack was the first and will be last one he really love.  But just wonder Ennis is only exist in the movie not in the real life. He is so difficult to understand.

Offline tpe

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Re: about Ennis
« Reply #6 on: Jan 24, 2006, 12:43 PM »
Thanks Tpe. I knew Ennis loves his daughters and wife but the love is different form the love to Jack. I believe Jack was the first and will be last one he really love.  But just wonder Ennis is only exist in the movie not in the real life. He is so difficult to understand.

gjz24, I'm still trying to figure out if I know anybody that comes close to Ennis (his strangeness, I mean).  I suspect there ARE some people like this.  This may be hard to believe, but I think life is really stranger than fiction... 

Offline gjz24

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Re: about Ennis - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #7 on: Jan 24, 2006, 04:58 PM »
Thanks Tpe. Just think about Ennis again. and recall what he said"Because of you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm nothing...
and nowhere."  what he really mean? he is so mystic..........

Offline tpe

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Re: about Ennis - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #8 on: Jan 24, 2006, 06:17 PM »
Thanks Tpe. Just think about Ennis again. and recall what he said"Because of you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm nothing...
and nowhere."  what he really mean? he is so mystic..........


gjz24, I've had a few discussions with some friends about this troubling phrase of Ennis.  Since this is tangential to the main topic of this thread.  I will create one devoted to this particular question.  Perhaps people can share their thoughts about this enigmatic and accusatory statement...

Offline Toadily

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Re: about Ennis - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #9 on: Jan 24, 2006, 06:20 PM »
My feeling is Ennis is still in denial at this point and does blame Jack in a way. 
"it's Love, Blockhead!"
-Pierre Marivaux  The Triumph of Love

"To love an idea is to love it a little more than one should."  -Jean Rostand

Offline gjz24

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Re: about Ennis - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #10 on: Jan 25, 2006, 03:20 PM »
Again, anyone know or heard there really has a guy who likes Ennis, I mean he had and will have only one beloved Jack in his whole life.

Offline coguaro

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Re: about Ennis - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #11 on: Jan 25, 2006, 04:46 PM »
Ive much difficult to give an identity label to Ennis. I cant say if he is gay.. homosexual.. bisexual or straight. There are facts on favor and against at the same time, each of these labels.  For that on my opinion he is very different from Jack who seems to be an "organized gay man", who have clear ideas of what he want and who know how to move in his society (taking also his risks.....)
My personal point of view is that the "escaping" personality of Ennis maybe give him a central role in whole history.  In fact thinking about him we cant reduce our opinion to a definite... category... but we think about the way he is involved... (corporal reaction, aggressiveness, tenderness, anger, passion and so on..)  i mean what he feel. Ennis exprime something of essential and basic which is common to all humanity... something which is a force of the nature!!
On the top of this we found obviously his love to Jack...

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Offline Kindred

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Re: about Ennis
« Reply #12 on: Jan 25, 2006, 04:57 PM »
Thanks Tpe. I knew Ennis loves his daughters and wife but the love is different form the love to Jack. I believe Jack was the first and will be last one he really love.  But just wonder Ennis is only exist in the movie not in the real life. He is so difficult to understand.

gjz24, I'm still trying to figure out if I know anybody that comes close to Ennis (his strangeness, I mean).  I suspect there ARE some people like this.  This may be hard to believe, but I think life is really stranger than fiction... 

Could you clarify or give examples of what behavior you find strange?  I can relate to his character and can't think of anything that I thought as being strange.

As to Ennis' sexual orientation, there is evidence to support both opinions.  I think the only clear thing is that he loves Jack.  If, because Jack is a man, this makes him gay/bi then so be it.  However, I see his love for Jack as transcending gender.  He does not love Jack because he is a man.  He loves Jack because he is uniquely Jack.

Offline tpe

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Re: about Ennis
« Reply #13 on: Jan 25, 2006, 06:35 PM »
Thanks Tpe. I knew Ennis loves his daughters and wife but the love is different form the love to Jack. I believe Jack was the first and will be last one he really love.  But just wonder Ennis is only exist in the movie not in the real life. He is so difficult to understand.

gjz24, I'm still trying to figure out if I know anybody that comes close to Ennis (his strangeness, I mean).  I suspect there ARE some people like this.  This may be hard to believe, but I think life is really stranger than fiction... 

Could you clarify or give examples of what behavior you find strange?  I can relate to his character and can't think of anything that I thought as being strange.

As to Ennis' sexual orientation, there is evidence to support both opinions.  I think the only clear thing is that he loves Jack.  If, because Jack is a man, this makes him gay/bi then so be it.  However, I see his love for Jack as transcending gender.  He does not love Jack because he is a man.  He loves Jack because he is uniquely Jack.


Hello Kindred.  For some reason, I only saw your comment just now.  I apologize for not having answered sooner.  Here is what strikes me as particularly strange as far as the character of Ennis is delineated.

1.  The way the love he shares with Jack gradually hems him deeper and deeper into his own self.  I have known a number of people who have done this as a consequence of unrequited love.  But this was not the case with Ennis.  I have even known someone who became more introverted when he got deeper into a relationship -- but nothing as extreme as the introversion that Ennis develops over 20 years.

2.  He is so constant and faithful, but he is also equally non-commital.  It is very hard for me to pinpoint acquaintances who remain true and faithful to somebody in the course of 20 years, and yet refuses to do anything about it.  Because of Ennis' terrible and lonely childhood, I can understand why he is this way.  But I know of nobody in real life who is literally faithful unto death, and yet is also literally poor and stunted in the personal avowal of that love.  As Cassie said: 'I don't get you, Ennis Del Mar'. 

3.  Ennis is terrible at expressing his love most of the time, although we are in no doubt that he did love very deeply.  The great exception is that one time in Brokeback when he embraces Jack from behind -- and even then, he refuses to embrace Jack up front for fear of seeing that it is Jack who he embraces.  The same holds true for Alma and his daughters, and to some extent, to Cassie.  It is clear that he loved them in some deep or otherwise sympathetic way.  But look how he was relucant to take in his daughter when she asked him if she could stay with him.  He almost didn't attend her wedding!  He is so remote to the people he loves, and yet you do find out in the end that he DOES love them very strongly, and very deeply. 

4. He is unbelievably cautious and reckless by turn.  He is constantly afraid of being found out.  But he is reckless when he kisses Jack outside the laundrymat.  He is so reckless when he does not even attempt to use the fishing gear he has bought.  He is reckless because there are things that he tries to keep compressed into himself -- and when the lid comes off, it strikes you as so shockingly so out of balance and proportion.

These are just a few things...  I am sure there are others that other forumers may see.  It should be noted that Ledger did get into the character of Ennis so deeply that the movie character is as much his creation as Proulx's.
« Last Edit: Jan 25, 2006, 06:43 PM by tpe »

Offline Kindred

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Re: about Ennis
« Reply #14 on: Jan 25, 2006, 09:16 PM »

Hello Kindred.  For some reason, I only saw your comment just now.  I apologize for not having answered sooner.  Here is what strikes me as particularly strange as far as the character of Ennis is delineated.

1.  The way the love he shares with Jack gradually hems him deeper and deeper into his own self.  I have known a number of people who have done this as a consequence of unrequited love.  But this was not the case with Ennis.  I have even known someone who became more introverted when he got deeper into a relationship -- but nothing as extreme as the introversion that Ennis develops over 20 years.

2.  He is so constant and faithful, but he is also equally non-commital.  It is very hard for me to pinpoint acquaintances who remain true and faithful to somebody in the course of 20 years, and yet refuses to do anything about it.  Because of Ennis' terrible and lonely childhood, I can understand why he is this way.  But I know of nobody in real life who is literally faithful unto death, and yet is also literally poor and stunted in the personal avowal of that love.  As Cassie said: 'I don't get you, Ennis Del Mar'. 

3.  Ennis is terrible at expressing his love most of the time, although we are in no doubt that he did love very deeply.  The great exception is that one time in Brokeback when he embraces Jack from behind -- and even then, he refuses to embrace Jack up front for fear of seeing that it is Jack who he embraces.  The same holds true for Alma and his daughters, and to some extent, to Cassie.  It is clear that he loved them in some deep or otherwise sympathetic way.  But look how he was relucant to take in his daughter when she asked him if she could stay with him.  He almost didn't attend her wedding!  He is so remote to the people he loves, and yet you do find out in the end that he DOES love them very strongly, and very deeply. 

4. He is unbelievably cautious and reckless by turn.  He is constantly afraid of being found out.  But he is reckless when he kisses Jack outside the laundrymat.  He is so reckless when he does not even attempt to use the fishing gear he has bought.  He is reckless because there are things that he tries to keep compressed into himself -- and when the lid comes off, it strikes you as so shockingly so out of balance and proportion.

These are just a few things...  I am sure there are others that other forumers may see.  It should be noted that Ledger did get into the character of Ennis so deeply that the movie character is as much his creation as Proulx's.

Thank you for the examples.  Some comments/thoughts:

1.  Do you think he became withdrawn with Jack as well?  Or just with everyone else?  I would agree that in general he seemed to become something of a recluse.  However, I'm not sure if that applies with Jack also.  From the beginning, he seems to open up with Jack, both verbally and emotionally.  In the final reunion when we see the scenes of them riding horseback side by side, it was almost like when I see my parents walking together hand in hand.  Not much is said, but the love is obvious, there is a certain comfort level between them. 

2.  I have no doubt that Ennis loved Jack.  However, I think Ennis could not resolve the homosexual implications in his own mind.  Having the encounters out in the middle of nowhere somehow made it okay in his own mind.  I think also Ennis was very much afraid.  Afraid of what others might think and do.  Afraid of what it might do to his children.  Fear is an equally powerful emotion.

3.  I think his inability to express love results directly from his childhood.  He had a difficult childhood and was forced to grow up prematurely.  The likelihood is that he never learned how to love.  Also, there is a definite distinction between an inability to express love and an inability to love.  Ennis clearly loved those around him.  He was uncomfortable with how to express that love.  For example, I have an Italian friend who's family hugs and kisses all the time.  My family barely even shakes hands.  Its not that we don't love each other, my cultural upbringing simply is not comfortable with such displays of affection.

4.  The public kiss was very risky, given his fears.  I thought it was simply the emotion of the moment overtook him.  That was one passionate kiss!

Maybe it's because I can very much relate to his character that I don't find his behavior all that strange.

Offline Barndancer61

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Re: about Ennis - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #15 on: Jan 25, 2006, 10:43 PM »
Ok, people, I think we have to remember that these are fictional characters and that for all intents and purposes the two main characters where written as gay in order to support the main theme in the story of the struggle between two men in love in the 1960's American West.   Any gay man who lived in or grew up in the 1960's and '70's (as I have) knows full well that any attraction to your own sex had to be denied, suppressed and ignored at all costs because according to the information around you at the time, you were sick, abnormal, strange and "funny", if not menally ill, and in most places at the time you were a "criminal sex offender" and could be sent to prison or locked in an institution.   As successful as we were in that denial (people believed we were straight), even when the evidence was pretty obvious (you never dated girls, never talked about girls, etc.) most people would never have considered thinking someone as homosexual (as to consider a person homosexual was and perhaps was/still is in some circles a very serious insult).  It was equated with considering someone a thief, a swindler, mentally ill, etc.  So this is not exclusive to the Ennis' of the world.  It was a fact of life for all of us.  My god, I remember having sex with guys, or quick encounters and as soon as you were finished, up went the denial again and as if nothing happened you and the other guy would often get away from each other as quickly as possible and in so doing it wouldn't be at all uncommon to tell the guy "you know I never do this kind of thing really" or someting to that effect.  So Ennis' obvious denial should never be read to conclude that he never had an attraction for men before that night in the tent.  Remember that the character was only 19 and it would not be unusual for a gay 19 year-old whom had never been with a man before to quickly recoil when he found his arms around the guy you were bunking with, if only for fear of the reaction of the guy whom you had your arms around.  I find it portrayed in the film quite realistically, that after the initial recoil, after he realized that Jack wasn't recoiling and was approaching him rather tenderly that Ennis became comfortable with the situation and "let it happen".  Remember also (in spite of the Author's assertion in the original story that Ennis knew instinctively how to "progress" with the encouter (the actual coupling), that that is not the case in real life.  With out being too graphic, you have to have done it before in order know that spit would be an adequate lubricant in a pinch!  People --especially younger people or straight people with no frame of reference to just what these character were going through mustn't fall into the mistake of believing that the things gay people did and said in this period were true representations of what they really were feeling and experiencing.  It was always a matter of life and death to us so we had to make you think we were like you in order to live in the societies were found ourselves in.

Offline ethan

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Re: about Ennis - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #16 on: Jan 25, 2006, 10:53 PM »
Barndancer61, welcome to this forum and thanks for sharing your view with us. Your take on many aspects, especially being homosexuals in 60's and 70's, is unfortunately true. It is a great movie and helps us learn how far we have come along and where we will go next. We love Ennis and Jack so much and need to gather additional information and understand them better.

Welcome again and see you around.
Remembering Pierre (chameau) 1960-2015, a "Capricorn bro and crazy Frog Uncle from the North Pole." You are missed

Offline tpe

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Re: about Ennis
« Reply #17 on: Jan 26, 2006, 08:39 AM »
Thank you for the examples.  Some comments/thoughts:

1.  Do you think he became withdrawn with Jack as well?  Or just with everyone else?  I would agree that in general he seemed to become something of a recluse.  However, I'm not sure if that applies with Jack also.  From the beginning, he seems to open up with Jack, both verbally and emotionally.  In the final reunion when we see the scenes of them riding horseback side by side, it was almost like when I see my parents walking together hand in hand.  Not much is said, but the love is obvious, there is a certain comfort level between them. 

Hello Kindred.  Thanks a lot for sharing your comments.  The character of Ennis fascinates me as much as the character of Jack touches me.  For #1, I agree with your last statement about a love that has reached a comfort level were words become superfluous.  You know, DO I think Jack was THE exception.  Ennis became more and more withdrawn from everybody else, and he spoke less and less it seems, even to Jack.  But his silences in the presence of Jack are more a manifestation of how deep and binding the love has become over the years, even if that love was unfulfilled and both had become more world-weary and disillusioned by unrealized hopes and suspicions/recriminations. 

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2.  I have no doubt that Ennis loved Jack.  However, I think Ennis could not resolve the homosexual implications in his own mind.  Having the encounters out in the middle of nowhere somehow made it okay in his own mind.  I think also Ennis was very much afraid.  Afraid of what others might think and do.  Afraid of what it might do to his children.  Fear is an equally powerful emotion.

Yes, Ennis was certainly afraid.  I would venture to say that he was as much afraid facing up to HIMSELF as much as facing up to other people.  That, to me, is what makes him so tragic.  The fear of hating oneself is probably one of the most painful conumdrums of a live lived on the margins...

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3.  I think his inability to express love results directly from his childhood.  He had a difficult childhood and was forced to grow up prematurely.  The likelihood is that he never learned how to love.  Also, there is a definite distinction between an inability to express love and an inability to love.  Ennis clearly loved those around him.  He was uncomfortable with how to express that love.  For example, I have an Italian friend who's family hugs and kisses all the time.  My family barely even shakes hands.  Its not that we don't love each other, my cultural upbringing simply is not comfortable with such displays of affection.

Sometimes, I wonder who had gone thru a more lonely and conflicted childhood: Ennis or Jack.  Jack, of course, had his mother, and I suspect he was much better at expressing his love for Ennis precisely because his mother had already 'shown him a way'.  But Jack's father is so horrific, that I wonder if Jack was better off not having a father at all!

One aspect of the story that intrigues me is Ennis' relationship with his sister and brother -- or lack of it.  Were they at his wedding to Alma?  I wonder how much emotional support he ever got from them -- if he even got any.  The story is silent about this.  But I have one good friend who has had minimum contact with his sister ever since he realized his homosexuality in the 1950s.  His parents were also not the best role models, and they had my friend live out his childhood with his grandmother.  I think this influenced the inevitable emotional and physical break he felt with the rest of the family when his grandmother died.

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4.  The public kiss was very risky, given his fears.  I thought it was simply the emotion of the moment overtook him.  That was one passionate kiss!

Maybe it's because I can very much relate to his character that I don't find his behavior all that strange.

Well, I think a lot of us do relate to aspects of Ennis and Jack -- probably very strongly in the case of some of us.  The extremities that can be found in Ennis' character do not really stop us from being able to understand and sympathize with him.  This says a lot of the great characterization by Proulx and Ledger.  Ennis can be extreme in certain aspects, but he mirrors emotional and physical 'shards' and 'fragments' in all of us that make us see things thru the squint of his eyes and the beat of his own heart.  In this sense, the extremities that I find strange may be viewed as not that strange after all...

Thanks for sharing...
« Last Edit: Jan 26, 2006, 08:45 AM by tpe »

Offline gjz24

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Re: about Ennis - Possible Spoilers
« Reply #18 on: Jan 26, 2006, 05:06 PM »
For me, I cannot understand why Ennis cannot love anyother anymore, he is only 40 something. I remember there is a say in <sleepless in Seattle> "if you had a great love before, and you may have it again" I cannot recall the exact words.

Offline mcdeocampo1975

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Re: about Ennis
« Reply #19 on: Jan 26, 2006, 11:46 PM »
Thanks Tpe. I knew Ennis loves his daughters and wife but the love is different form the love to Jack. I believe Jack was the first and will be last one he really love.  But just wonder Ennis is only exist in the movie not in the real life. He is so difficult to understand.

gjz24, I'm still trying to figure out if I know anybody that comes close to Ennis (his strangeness, I mean).  I suspect there ARE some people like this.  This may be hard to believe, but I think life is really stranger than fiction...