Author Topic: so I'm confused... (Read 17966 times)

Jakesbro2007 · « **on:** Nov 18, 2006, 11:31 PM »

After watching the movie numerous amounts of times, here is my question. Did Jack's parents know about him and Ennis? Did Jacks wife know about them? I just kind of started thinking of that, due to their reactions that I started recognizing. Thanks!

NoReins · « **Reply #1 on:** Nov 20, 2006, 09:06 AM »

Hi Jakesbro2007

I don't think there are definitive answers to those questions....some things can maybe be implied from the things they say or do, but in the end it's mostly subjective. There are discussions on both topics to be found on here...maybe someone can provide you with links to those threads

For what it's worth, I think Jack's parents had some idea that their son may have been gay and I think his mum knew that Ennis was the person Jack loved after Ennis found the shirts and brought them back down the stairs. I think she had known they were there and had an idea of the story behind them...Ennis taking them confirmed that the other shirt was his and therefore he was Jack's "other half"

As for Lureen, again I think she may have had some inkling, possibly from knowing the truth about the way Jack died (or possibly not...I'm unsure about that!) but she didn't know about Ennis until he told her that Jack and him had met on Brokeback. At that point, she put 2 and 2 together - Jack's favourite place...they met there...he was always so happy when he was going to meet Ennis...and realised not only who Ennis had been to Jack but also that it predated her relationship with Jack.

That's my two pence worth, anyway!

tpe · « **Reply #2 on:** Nov 20, 2006, 09:19 AM »

Hello, Jakesbro2007. There are old threads dealing with both Jack's mom and his dad and whether they knew or not. My first impulse is to merge this thread with some of the older ones, but I don't recall if both have been discussed in one thread. I will have to check.

In any case, I direct you to these older threads and hope you will find the lively discussions there helpful.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #3 on:** Nov 20, 2006, 03:58 PM »

I think Jack's mom knew due to conversation she and Jack had that we were not privy to earlier or she figured it out from seeing the shirts hidden in the closet. When she invited Ennis to check out Jack's room she knew they were there for Ennis to discover. When he came back downstairs with them, she seemed satisfied that her plan had worked and immediatly grabbed the bag to put them into for Ennis. The looks exchanged between her and Ennis were telling. Apparently Jack had said something earlier to clue the old man onto him , he stated he knew about Brokeback. but I'm not sure. Lureen was'nt dumb, She had to at least suspect after seeing her husband leaving 2-3 times a year to go "fishing" with the same guy in another STATE. for 20 years but I'm not sure althogh she did question Jack about why Ennis never came to Texas to fish sometimes. Would have made me suspisious. When Ennis called her after Jack's death she knew that he was a real person that existed in her husband's life for a long long time. She had to equate Ennis with Brokeback and Jack's request to have his ashes spread there.

tpe · « **Reply #4 on:** Nov 21, 2006, 08:34 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Nov 20, 2006, 03:58 PM

I think Jack's mom knew due to conversation she and Jack had that we were not privy to earlier or she figured it out from seeing the shirts hidden in the closet. When she invited Ennis to check out Jack's room she knew they were there for Ennis to discover. When he came back downstairs with them, she seemed satisfied that her plan had worked and immediatly grabbed the bag to put them into for Ennis. The looks exchanged between her and Ennis were telling. Apparently Jack had said something earlier to clue the old man onto him , he stated he knew about Brokeback. but I'm not sure. Lureen was'nt dumb, She had to at least suspect after seeing her husband leaving 2-3 times a year to go "fishing" with the same guy in another STATE. for 20 years but I'm not sure althogh she did question Jack about why Ennis never came to Texas to fish sometimes. Would have made me suspisious. When Ennis called her after Jack's death she knew that he was a real person that existed in her husband's life for a long long time. She had to equate Ennis with Brokeback and Jack's request to have his ashes spread there.

John Twist did say "I know where Brokeback Mountain is..." and then follows it by a harsh remark about Jack's choice of not wanting to be buried in the family plot.

There are many ways to interprest this. One of course is the literal statement itself -- that John Twist truly did not realize the significance of BBM and what it stood for. Another interpreation that you seem to hint at is that John Twist fully realized the significance, so that his follow-up statement becomes one of bitterness with respect to Jack being "different", being "special".

I had personally leaned more on the first interprestation, but I am sympathetic to the second one. I am of the school that believes John Twist's remarks worked on at least 2 levels. Whether he intended this or not is part of the powerful ambiguity of the story itself.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #5 on:** Nov 21, 2006, 05:00 PM »

I agree . It was left open to interperet what John Sr meant by saying he knew where BBM was I think it in reply to Ennis requesting the ashes so he could take them to the mountain and spread them there perJack's request. What he knew and when he knew about details about Ennis's relation to Jack remains unknown. He did realize that Jack was very close to Ennis though in some way. Him also mentioning bringing "another fella up here" maybe gives a clue. Don't know.I 'm sure Mrs. Twist knew though.

tpe · « **Reply #6 on:** Nov 21, 2006, 06:46 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Nov 21, 2006, 05:00 PM

I agree . It was left open to interperet what John Sr meant by saying he knew where BBM was I think it in reply to Ennis requesting the ashes so he could take them to the mountain and spread them there perJack's request. What he knew and when he knew about details about Ennis's relation to Jack remains unknown. He did realize that Jack was very close to Ennis though in some way. Him also mentioning bringing "another fella up here" maybe gives a clue. Don't know.I 'm sure Mrs. Twist knew though.

I do suspect that John Twist somehow knew just how special Ennis was to Jack. Jack's statements about bringing Ennis back with him and living together must have struck John Twist as singular. He probably understood the subtext of it all.

welshwitch · « **Reply #7 on:** Nov 22, 2006, 10:25 AM »

IMO Jaohn Twost was jealous of everything about Jack. the "I know where BBM is" could be simply a staement of fact - he knows its geographical location, but I tend to think it also has a wider meaning - to his father BBM is like sugar Candy Mountain or Oz, one of Jack's unattainable fantasies. That ties up with Jack's perceived wish to be different - his father sees him as thinking himself better than them. He seems to see the mentions of ennis and the reference to Randall as just more fantasy, whether or not he's aware of the significance of the fact that it's two men Jack wants to bring home with him. I'm sure there's a part of John Twist that's glad Jack died with alll his promise unfullfilled and the things he wanted unachieved.

Lureen? I think she's yoo self-centered and money-focused to care, as long as Jack keeps up appearances.

These are not introspective or intellectual characters, prone to reflection and self-analysis. They are just trying ot get through life as best they can.

tpe · « **Reply #8 on:** Nov 22, 2006, 11:47 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Nov 22, 2006, 10:25 AM

IMO Jaohn Twost was jealous of everything about Jack. the "I know where BBM is" could be simply a staement of fact - he knows its geographical location, but I tend to think it also has a wider meaning - to his father BBM is like sugar Candy Mountain or Oz, one of Jack's unattainable fantasies. That ties up with Jack's perceived wish to be different - his father sees him as thinking himself better than them. He seems to see the mentions of ennis and the reference to Randall as just more fantasy, whether or not he's aware of the significance of the fact that it's two men Jack wants to bring home with him. I'm sure there's a part of John Twist that's glad Jack died with alll his promise unfullfilled and the things he wanted unachieved.

Lureen? I think she's yoo self-centered and money-focused to care, as long as Jack keeps up appearances.

These are not introspective or intellectual characters, prone to reflection and self-analysis. They are just trying ot get through life as best they can.

Yes, there is more than one level of meaning in that very scene. It is fascinating to see and understand after repeated viewings...

Audrey twist · « **Reply #9 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 07:58 AM »

EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN JACK AND ENNIS But THEY PEFERRED BE SILENT

tpe · « **Reply #10 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 08:37 AM »

Quote from: Audrey twist on Nov 28, 2006, 07:58 AM

EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN JACK AND ENNIS But THEY PEFERRED BE SILENT

Audrey twist, so you do think Ennis was justified in his suspicion that a lot more poeple knew about their proclivities? It is possible that some poeple in Riverton knew, but this is pure speculation on my part. It depends on whether Alma told other people about them. Alma most certainly knew... But I don't know if she would have told other poeple, and if she did tell Monroe, I tend to think that Monroe would have kept it to himself.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #11 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 08:46 AM »

Aside friom Ennis and Jack, 3 people knew for sure . Alma, Aguirre,and Jack's mommy! that's all.

tpe · « **Reply #12 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 08:51 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Nov 28, 2006, 08:46 AM

Aside friom Ennis and Jack, 3 people knew for sure . Alma, Aguirre,and Jack's mommy! that's all.

For sure, these 3 knew. Lureen probably knew -- in the end.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #13 on:** Nov 28, 2006, 10:25 AM »

I feel she had to in the end.

tpe · « **Reply #14 on:** Nov 29, 2006, 10:10 AM »

Athough I know this is disputed, I have a feeling that Jack's father also knew. And I though Ennis realized that the father -- as well as the mother -- knew.

welshwitch · « **Reply #15 on:** Nov 29, 2006, 02:05 PM »

I'm sure John Twist " knew" but didn't want to acknowledge, even to himself, that he had a gay son. His mother knew but he was her son and she accepted him as he was. Lureen relalized during the phone-call - i reckon up till then if she suspected she repressed the idea and pushed it well down into her mind. People in Riverton must surely have gossipped - why would Alma divorce Ennis? There was no obvious cause and their marriage must have been much like many more - kids, money problems, etc. If Monroe had been the proximate cause, that would surely have done him no good in a small place like that - wouldn't he have been seen as a home-wrecker?

aintfoolin · « **Reply #16 on:** Nov 29, 2006, 02:19 PM »

If he did'nt know before Ennis got there, the fact that Ennis showed up there to get the ashes should have given him a blatant clue. The exchanges between his wife and Ennis+ with Ennis walking tearfully past him with the shirts should have left no doubt. Somehow I get the feeling that if Ennis and him could've spent more time together John Sr. may have come to like Ennis or at least called a truce to the bitterness . + he could have used Ennis's knowledge about ranch work and animals. Would have to eveventually admit that if his son had to be gay, Jack had made a good choice in this man. . If only .....Just my humble opinion.

tpe · « **Reply #17 on:** Nov 30, 2006, 11:46 AM »

If only this was recognized: that Jack had chosen well.

Jakesbro2007 · « **Reply #18 on:** Dec 31, 2006, 03:35 PM »

Hey you guys, and mostly gals. lol. Thanks for the replys about this topic. Sorry it has taken me a while to get back to you, if you only understood how slow my computer is. Thanks again.

tpe · « **Reply #19 on:** Jan 02, 2007, 10:10 AM »

Thanks, also, Jakesbro2007.

Confusion is not a bad thing if it leads to insightful discussion.

Mars · « **Reply #20 on:** Jan 03, 2007, 08:08 AM »

I guess both of Jack's parents knew of the special relationship
with Ennis. And I guess Jack's homosexuality was in knowledge of
his wife...at the end she knew Jack had another love even when he married
her! And I think, beyond Alma, Alma Jr. too could have understood
something more of his beloved father.

tpe · « **Reply #21 on:** Jan 03, 2007, 08:11 AM »

Quote from: Mars on Jan 03, 2007, 08:08 AM

I guess both of Jack's parents knew of the special relationship
with Ennis. And I guess Jack's homosexuality was in knowledge of
his wife...at the end she knew Jack had another love even when he married
her! And I think, beyond Alma, Alma Jr. too could have understood
something more of his beloved father.

I agree with this. IMO, Jack and Ennis probably realized this, also (in the case of Jack and Lureen, probably at the very end of their marriage).

richie · « **Reply #22 on:** Jan 05, 2007, 05:08 AM »

Jack's parents both knew Jack had a special buddy, though I don't believe they ever discussed the subject with each other. Neither of them thought him gay, because, he wasn't. This was all buddy stuff, and buddy love, which is way different from what gay folk want to make it out to be. Neither Ennis nor Jack was gay - in that sense of the word. Sure they had homosexual relations, but 'gay'? don't make me laugh

tpe · « **Reply #23 on:** Jan 05, 2007, 08:34 AM »

Quote from: richie on Jan 05, 2007, 05:08 AM

Jack's parents both knew Jack had a special buddy, though I don't believe they ever discussed the subject with each other. Neither of them thought him gay, because, he wasn't. This was all buddy stuff, and buddy love, which is way different from what gay folk want to make it out to be. Neither Ennis nor Jack was gay - in that sense of the word. Sure they had homosexual relations, but 'gay'? don't make me laugh

OT: The issue of whether Jack and/or Ennis is gay is a subject of 2 separate threads. There is a whole range of opinions about this in the many posts and counter-posts contained therein.

For the record, my opinion is that both were gay, and that Jack's parents (for sure, his mother) knew that their son was gay.

richie · « **Reply #24 on:** Jan 05, 2007, 01:06 PM »

hey TPE, cool short comment. Can you lead me to where this issue was discussed. I got a different definition to you buddy. No insult meant. Rich

tpe · « **Reply #25 on:** Jan 05, 2007, 04:02 PM »

Quote from: richie on Jan 05, 2007, 01:06 PM

hey TPE, cool short comment. Can you lead me to where this issue was discussed. I got a different definition to you buddy. No insult meant. Rich

Hello Rich. Ennis's is discussed in the following thread:

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=832.0

Jack's, here:

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=5981.0

I bumped them up for convenience.

lamusica · « **Reply #26 on:** Jan 05, 2007, 07:14 PM »

I don't want to be OT here, but the question of Jack's dad came up right above. I think he knew. I think that is why his tone of voice with Ennis was so cruel, sharp, and negative. Also, he seldom makes eye contact with Ennis. He knows and he wants Ennis to know he knows. The mother just stood there, watching her husband and Ennis. She was scared to death of what her husband might say to him. I really do think she and her husband had discussed Jack's "friendship" with Ennis and recognized it was more than "buddies". I use the word "discussed" loosely, since I don't think she ever got to say much -- just listened to her old man and did what he told her to do. There was no doubt that Jack's ashes were going into the family plot. The old man had said that's the way it would be and that's that.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #27 on:** Jan 06, 2007, 02:45 AM »

I hope that Richie reads the others threads and takes another good hard long look at SNIT, the Reunion scene, and The scene where Ennis visits Jack's parents after his death. Just one of these scenes speak volumes about how deep the feelings go in this relationship , but when you combine just these 3 scenes from the movie ,this is way beyond just buddy stuff my freind ,or even buddy love. It's deeper than sex or interpretations of degrees of gayness. It's human love between two people who happen to be men and their struggle against society to be true to themselves and each other. I love the dicussion and reading others fascinating views. I've learned alot. My humble opinion.Thanks

Mars · « **Reply #28 on:** Jan 06, 2007, 05:07 AM »

You're most welcome aintfoolin and thanks
for your contribution.