Topic: Alcohol and the boys.

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

I thought it was physiological - some sort of effect of the metabolism of alcohol - may even have to go and look it up.

Yes, it is primarily physiological. You feel warmer because blood is shifted from the internaal criculation (Like the liver, kidneys and lungs) to the peripheral (hands, feet and face). If you have been a bit cold and then enter a warm room you can afford this, physiologically. Sit by the fire, rub your hands, shiver, and have a drink. No problem.

But alcohol kills if taken during a state of hypothermia. Shivering stops. What warmth there is gets redistributed and the core temperature plumets. You start to see long spiral tunnels filled with pink penguins or whatever, then loose conciouness, stop breathing and then your heart stops - basically.

All this is very off topic, but a good chance for some alcohol education!

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

I see the alcohol useage of both Ennis and Jack as being fairly normal within the social and cultural context the story is set in. The situations shown in all scenes are realistic - you cannot take the alcohol out of the story any more than the mountains or the sheep!

Jack drank a lot according to Lureen. This is not shown as such. But I feel he did a lot of drinking out of frustration.

[tpe]

What an informative discussion here.  Thanks, friends. 

[aintfoolin]

I believe it is true that everyone's metabolism is different. Jack, Prpobably had more tolerance to it than Ennis as said earlier. He had been exposed to alcohol longer an therefore his immune system could tolerate more without appearing or acting drunk. But he gave Ennis a little less than half a bottle of whiskey, prior to FNIT, (during the Water-walkin) scene. Some one who was'nt exposed to alcohol as much, I assume Ennis drank it  all cause he was totally trashed crawling around on his hands and knees! And if his drinking made him feel "warm"? it was on the inside because, as Jack warned he would "freeze his ass off"  once  the fire died out ,and he did.The bottles got bigger too as the movie went on I noticed and by the end of the film Ennis had a much better tolerance with the straight whiskey than in the beginning. The war going on inside and between them is the culprit I beleive. They drank alot.

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

Jack was pretty pissed when he was doing rodeo impressions and fell over amount the pots and pans!

The thing I notice is now much more serious everything becomes as the film progresses. Yes, they drink together, but it is more companionship and deeper conversation than foolin'.

The difference between 18 and 40 I suppose, with a dose of disillusionment.

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

I believe it is true that everyone's metabolism is different. Jack, Probably had more tolerance to it than Ennis as said earlier. He had been exposed to alcohol longer an therefore his immune system could tolerate more without appearing or acting drunk.

Actually, it is enzymes in the liver that metabolise alcohol out of the system. The immune system has little to do with it. That is more for bacteria, viruses and inflammation in the body.

Yes, there are large genetic differences in the rate at which the metabolism of alcohol occurs. Food can slow absorption. (Particularly elk and beans!)

Tolerance to alcohol tends to increase with time, but this is because of neurological factors - the brain gets accustomed to the presence of alcohol and can even show withdrawal symptoms without it in very heavy drinkers.

I have a degree in this! Does it show? No not in drinking, in the theory!

[Koka]

I believe they both had alcohol problems ( as had the majority of people living in that time, at that place ), but I personally think that when under the influence, they both were- themselves!
because we all know ( not that I'm too proud to admit it myself ) that alcohol does bring out certain things in people- or should I say OUT of people. when under the influence, all boundaries vanish and one is capable of being oneself- to the fullest ( which is sad, the fact that we are most like ourselves at times when we can't think clearly because of a...toxin! ). because one doesn't think about the consequences, one thinks only of the thing one wants and of the thing one IS at that precise moment. one doesn't give a f*** about society, about rules or boundaries, one just wants to express oneself in his or her most pure way- which is AMAZING of course. but then again, it would be so amazing, if people could 'be able' to do that when not having drunk alcohol. so from that point of view, I believe that alcohol was sort of a....push, for both jack and ennis. because think about it, I kind of doubt that any of them ( especially ennis ) would have even tried making a move that night in the tent if it hadn't been for the fact that they had both been drunk. I'm not saying that what they did was something done strictly because of alcohol, far from it, and on the contrary- they did what they really WANTED to do but probably never would have deared to do, so alcohol was there just to give them a little 'boost'  aka, it helped them express their mutual attraction for one another that night  at least I see it that way

[jerasjr]

The drinking in the film did bother me, simply because I have a family where alcohol is a problem...but putting it in the context of the time helped sort it out.  Somehow do not in the early years see any great psychological significance to it - it was like a rite of passage, as you reached a certain age, you started drinking, whether it was legal or not.  Can remember in high school going to parties located in areas outside of the city where liquor was available and going into bars as early as age 16... if you could get away with it, you did it... There was not the realization/emphasis on drinking as a societal problem.  As the years progressed, then yes can see how either could have been using alcohol as a crutch.

[aimi15]

This is a great discussion. After FNIT when Ennis goes off on his own (to contemplate), i guess he could have said to himsel it happened beacuse of the alcohol, but maybe his doubt came from knowing it wasn't down to the alcohol - yes it was a push, i agree with what you say Koka - but despite the acohol he wanted that level of intimacy with Jack. As that point possibly it was a blow to him to know deep down he couldn't blame it on being p*ssed.

Bless him. It really makes me appreciate the struggle he had within himself.

[aimi15]

The drinking in the film did bother me, simply because I have a family where alcohol is a problem...but putting it in the context of the time helped sort it out.  Somehow do not in the early years see any great psychological significance to it - it was like a rite of passage, as you reached a certain age, you started drinking, whether it was legal or not.  Can remember in high school going to parties located in areas outside of the city where liquor was available and going into bars as early as age 16... if you could get away with it, you did it... There was not the realization/emphasis on drinking as a societal problem.  As the years progressed, then yes can see how either could have been using alcohol as a crutch.

I agree with you here jerasjr - the drinking did seem right in the context of the story. It seemed natural to me that whilst they were up on the mountain they would be drinking whiskey - that could have been something to do with my own preconceptions of country/ranching life. Right or wrong it made it more authentic for me. I have to admit it was only towards the end of the film when Lureen made her 'he drank a lot' comment that i really took note of just how much had been consumed. Up to that point seeing tham both with a bottle in their hand had become natural. Weird.

[jerasjr]

It would be interesting to find out the "legal" drinking age in WY at that time - some areas tended to be more relaxed, cannot imagine them being asked for ID's to enter the bar.  Do not think that at that time there were penalties for the bars who served underage people.  Do not rememeber being asked for ID until I was well past the legal age.  That might give a clue as to the context of their culture at the time...

[welshwitch]

Evidently Annie Proulx got it right about Wyoming - at least about Wyoming in the late C20th/early C21st. The state apparently has a huge under-age drinking problem, with kids as young as 9 and 10 drinking, and it's at its worst in rural areas. there's also a problem with under-age drink-driving (?DUI? - we don;t call it that but I think Americans do) and apparently parents take the view that drinking is better than using drugs ( as if alcohol weren't one!) The legal age there now is 21, which seems high to me from my UK perspective, but I think it was/is the same in eg Nevada.

Is there some kind of link between the West and excessive drinking? Does it have anything to do with the fact that you can make your own ( illegal) alcohol, specially if you live way the hell out in the middle of nowhere? I'm thinking of moonshine.

[aintfoolin]

Thanks for setting the record straight JFT. I don't profess to be an expert on the effects of alcohol on the human body, but I'll certainly take your word for it. I appreciate your wealth of information on this thread. Thanks again.
 It's also clear that they drank for different reasons. When Jack was worried about Ennis being missing from camp after the bear incident, Jack has a bottle. Obviously he was nervous and very worried with a little anger mixed in.When Ennis gets there , Jack offers him water, but he demands whiskey instead. I guess what bothers me is their seemingly dependence on it. I think it may also have to do with culture, most 19 year olds (that I know) are strictly beer drinkers, then "graduate" to the harder stuff later. Maybe It's different in the midwestern states?( I'm on the East coast,but does'nt matter. Alcohol is abused all over the world.

[Koka]

After FNIT when Ennis goes off on his own (to contemplate), i guess he could have said to himsel it happened beacuse of the alcohol, but maybe his doubt came from knowing it wasn't down to the alcohol - yes it was a push, i agree with what you say Koka - but despite the acohol he wanted that level of intimacy with Jack.

my point exactly    ( 

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

It would be interesting to find out the "legal" drinking age in WY at that time

Yes, that would be interesting to know. Apparently, as Jack lead Ennis to a bar as soon as they has shaken hands, this was no problem in practice if not legally.

And in one of the several cut scenes, a remnant of which remains in the trailer, is the line from Jack "Well since we goin to be workin together I reckon its time we started drinkin together".

It "clicked" right away between these two men. They started out drinking together from the very outset, with both comparing childhoods, before they went up the mountain.

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

Thanks for setting the record straight JFT.

You are welcome. This is a particularly interesting thread.

[welshwitch]

It's also made me aware of hopw often we see them drinking when they're not on BBM - Jack after the rodeos, particularly the time when Lureen approaches him, at which point he appears to be drinking whiskey again, Ennis waiting for Jack to arrive in Riverton, the two of them when they go off "fishing" together, Ennis in the trailer with Alma Jr - alcohol seems to be a regular part of their lives.

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

It's also made me aware of hopw often we see them drinking when they're not on BBM - Jack after the rodeos, particularly the time when Lureen approaches him, at which point he appears to be drinking whiskey again, Ennis waiting for Jack to arrive in Riverton, the two of them when they go off "fishing" together, Ennis in the trailer with Alma Jr - alcohol seems to be a regular part of their lives.

Yes. And the thanksgiving meal with the fight afterwards, the drunken types at new year with the firework fight, the evening Alma wants to go to the church social while Ennis is surrounded by beer cans, the scenes with Randal. The scenes with Cassey too. In fact there seem to be as many scenes with alcohol as without if you go through them in your head.

[tpe]

Jack was pretty pissed when he was doing rodeo impressions and fell over amount the pots and pans!

The thing I notice is now much more serious everything becomes as the film progresses. Yes, they drink together, but it is more companionship and deeper conversation than foolin'.

The difference between 18 and 40 I suppose, with a dose of disillusionment.

So true.

[tpe]

I believe they both had alcohol problems ( as had the majority of people living in that time, at that place ), but I personally think that when under the influence, they both were- themselves!
because we all know ( not that I'm too proud to admit it myself ) that alcohol does bring out certain things in people- or should I say OUT of people. when under the influence, all boundaries vanish and one is capable of being oneself- to the fullest ( which is sad, the fact that we are most like ourselves at times when we can't think clearly because of a...toxin! ). because one doesn't think about the consequences, one thinks only of the thing one wants and of the thing one IS at that precise moment. one doesn't give a f*** about society, about rules or boundaries, one just wants to express oneself in his or her most pure way- which is AMAZING of course. but then again, it would be so amazing, if people could 'be able' to do that when not having drunk alcohol. so from that point of view, I believe that alcohol was sort of a....push, for both jack and ennis. because think about it, I kind of doubt that any of them ( especially ennis ) would have even tried making a move that night in the tent if it hadn't been for the fact that they had both been drunk. I'm not saying that what they did was something done strictly because of alcohol, far from it, and on the contrary- they did what they really WANTED to do but probably never would have deared to do, so alcohol was there just to give them a little 'boost'  aka, it helped them express their mutual attraction for one another that night  at least I see it that way

So you believe as the ancient Greeks did: that it is through alcohol that th gods speak to/through Mortals and that the hidden self is finally revealed...

There is certainly much truth to this, also.

[tpe]

The drinking in the film did bother me, simply because I have a family where alcohol is a problem...but putting it in the context of the time helped sort it out.  Somehow do not in the early years see any great psychological significance to it - it was like a rite of passage, as you reached a certain age, you started drinking, whether it was legal or not.  Can remember in high school going to parties located in areas outside of the city where liquor was available and going into bars as early as age 16... if you could get away with it, you did it... There was not the realization/emphasis on drinking as a societal problem.  As the years progressed, then yes can see how either could have been using alcohol as a crutch.

And alcohol is still used as a crutch, no?  For juveniles, this is underastandable (though not excusable).  For more mature ones, it is sad.

[tpe]

This is a great discussion. After FNIT when Ennis goes off on his own (to contemplate), i guess he could have said to himsel it happened beacuse of the alcohol, but maybe his doubt came from knowing it wasn't down to the alcohol - yes it was a push, i agree with what you say Koka - but despite the acohol he wanted that level of intimacy with Jack. As that point possibly it was a blow to him to know deep down he couldn't blame it on being p*ssed.

Bless him. It really makes me appreciate the struggle he had within himself.

As much as its use is abused, alcohol does sometimes makes one brave enough to face one's true self.

[tpe]

Thanks for setting the record straight JFT. I don't profess to be an expert on the effects of alcohol on the human body, but I'll certainly take your word for it. I appreciate your wealth of information on this thread. Thanks again.
 It's also clear that they drank for different reasons. When Jack was worried about Ennis being missing from camp after the bear incident, Jack has a bottle. Obviously he was nervous and very worried with a little anger mixed in.When Ennis gets there , Jack offers him water, but he demands whiskey instead. I guess what bothers me is their seemingly dependence on it. I think it may also have to do with culture, most 19 year olds (that I know) are strictly beer drinkers, then "graduate" to the harder stuff later. Maybe It's different in the midwestern states?( I'm on the East coast,but does'nt matter. Alcohol is abused all over the world.

Interestinmg that you mention the bear episode.  Alcohol was also used here as a palliative, no?  To dull pain -- both physical and spiritual, I would expect...

[tpe]

Yes. And the thanksgiving meal with the fight afterwards, the drunken types at new year with the firework fight, the evening Alma wants to go to the church social while Ennis is surrounded by beer cans, the scenes with Randal. The scenes with Cassey too. In fact there seem to be as many scenes with alcohol as without if you go through them in your head.

We should note that wine features in the end, when Ennis toasts Alma Jr. with cheap white wine left over from the Cassie days.

Why do I bring this up?  It was probably 2 years since Ennis broke up with Cassie, according to the screenplay.  Verily, the wine had turned to vinegar.  Christ drinking wine-vinegar on a sponge and crying out: "it is finished".

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

In fact there seem to be as many scenes with alcohol as without if you go through them in your head.

Correction - with the bear scene and Alma Jr. thak makes more scenes with alcohol than without!

[manhattangirl]

Hi,

 This is my 2 cent worth,  Ennis and Jack on the surface was a ranch hand and a cowboy,  outdoors men.  drinking was part of the life. I don't know if they  were functioning alcoholics, but it was part of them.   When Ennis was thrown from the horse, and came back to camp he was mad.  Jack was drinking because he was upset there was no dinner, only those darn beans.    Ennis said " Isn't there whiskey or somethin",   He didn't want any sissy drink like water, heck he wasn't fainting. 

On the night of their first encounter they finally opened up, like maybe two good friends in a bar,  and talking about what they believed, feeling each other out on some things.  When you go out with a friend, a lover your guard is down you're relaxed, comfortable so you open up, act silly even.   

Alcohol was just a part of their lives.

[tpe]

Hi,

 This is my 2 cent worth,  Ennis and Jack on the surface was a ranch hand and a cowboy,  outdoors men.  drinking was part of the life. I don't know if they  were functioning alcoholics, but it was part of them.   When Ennis was thrown from the horse, and came back to camp he was mad.  Jack was drinking because he was upset there was no dinner, only those darn beans.    Ennis said " Isn't there whiskey or somethin",   He didn't want any sissy drink like water, heck he wasn't fainting. 

On the night of their first encounter they finally opened up, like maybe two good friends in a bar,  and talking about what they believed, feeling each other out on some things.  When you go out with a friend, a lover your guard is down you're relaxed, comfortable so you open up, act silly even.   

Alcohol was just a part of their lives.

As with many people wit similar backgrounds, I would say.  It was a simple pleasure.

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

Hi,
Alcohol was just a part of their lives.

Yes it was. It would have been considerd odd not to drink in their social culture.

The "alcoholic" aspect (excessive drinking where it is seen as being a problem by the individual concerner and/or the people around them) is only implied in that Lureen said that Jack drank a lot and made jokes about whiskey springs.

Between the lines I feel Jack was a heavy drinker. Frustrated, stuck in an unhappy marriage yet with the money for drink.

[welshwitch]

And both on the rodeo circuit and among other salesmen and buyers, I bet drink was the norm, part of the social background. Besides which, I'd have drunk to put some distance between myself and Lureen, specially after she grew yellow plastic hair.

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

And both on the rodeo circuit and among other salesmen and buyers, I bet drink was the norm, part of the social background. Besides which, I'd have drunk to put some distance between myself and Lureen, specially after she grew yellow plastic hair.

The less sex she got - the more blonde her hair became!