Topic: Alcohol and the boys.

[tpe]

Yes it was. It would have been considerd odd not to drink in their social culture.

The "alcoholic" aspect (excessive drinking where it is seen as being a problem by the individual concerner and/or the people around them) is only implied in that Lureen said that Jack drank a lot and made jokes about whiskey springs.

Between the lines I feel Jack was a heavy drinker. Frustrated, stuck in an unhappy marriage yet with the money for drink.

There is indeed a difference between when one drinks for pleasure and when one drinks to forget.

[aintfoolin]

I'm thinking of the scene where Cassie and Ennis come to pick up Alma Jr. Well..I guess Ennis' likes to drink because they ended up where? IN THE BAR.  I've been in bars and seen young kids , not drinking but watching and listening to adult activities there with the parent. I just get this weird  uncomfortable feeling. We are all products of our enviroment, and so was Ennis and Jack.   I think they both drank to forget there lack of sucess on many levels. Their fathers probably drank heavily too. And how many beers did Ennis have while waiting for Jack in the reunion scene? Jeez, I saw at least 8. 

[tpe]

I'm thinking of the scene where Cassie and Ennis come to pick up Alma Jr. Well..I guess Ennis' likes to drink because they ended up where? IN THE BAR.  I've been in bars and seen young kids , not drinking but watching and listening to adult activities there with the parent. I just get this weird  uncomfortable feeling. We are all products of our enviroment, and so was Ennis and Jack.   I think they both drank to forget there lack of sucess on many levels. Their fathers probably drank heavily too. And how many beers did Ennis have while waiting for Jack in the reunion scene? Jeez, I saw at least 8. 

It is most probable that the great majority of people like Ennis and Jack would drink in part for leisure/recreation an in part to forget their everyday woes.  In fact, these two probably go hand in hand.  And let's not forget the social aspect of drinking...

In the scene where Ennis dances with Cassie for the first time, Cassie comments about "drunks like you, demanding beer after beer, smokin..."  Clearly, Ennis had time on his hands that afternoon and wiled away the time drinking and smoking -- apparently for the pleasure of it.  But I don't doubt that he preferred this type of liesure activity because it gave him the chance to forget his problems, rather than mope about them when he had time on his hands.

[manhattangirl]

Wait, Wait.

Don't over analyze this.   Remember this was 60's  drinking and smoking was OK,  There were commercials on TV for beer and cigarettes.   "It was OK to drink a six pack in one sitting, I worked all day, and hard too I deserve this, buzz off. "  Who in the heck was the Surgeon General, and who cared back then.   That was the way it was.  Now, today, in  the times we live, it is socially unacceptable to do this.  But this was life for them. 

There one thing  I could believe,  I could believe that Jack could have been drinking more, because of Ennis.  It has to get to you after a while to want something so much, to be so close, and still can't  have it.   Ennis, was surely Jack's one and only true love, how maddening it was for him not to have  him totally.

[tpe]

Wait, Wait.

Don't over analyze this.   Remember this was 60's  drinking and smoking was OK,  There were commercials on TV for beer and cigarettes.   "It was OK to drink a six pack in one sitting, I worked all day, and hard too I deserve this, buzz off. "  Who in the heck was the Surgeon General, and who cared back then.   That was the way it was.  Now, today, in  the times we live, it is socially unacceptable to do this.  But this was life for them. 

There one thing  I could believe,  I could believe that Jack could have been drinking more, because of Ennis.  It has to get to you after a while to want something so much, to be so close, and still can't  have it.   Ennis, was surely Jack's one and only true love, how maddening it was for him not to have  him totally.

I don't think it was just ok.  I would say that smoking and drinking as expected of men.

I do think drinking is still widely acceptable today, although heavy drinking is not particularly acceptable.  One just goes to college town bars to see how peer pressure drives drinking among the young -- it would not be seasible to have a social life there without recourse to alcohol.  And in spite of growing disapproval, I do think smoking is still fairly widespread: again, most especially among the young.

Later in life, I would think that Jack's frustrations with Ennis increased his drinking.  But even without this, I am sure he and Ennis were reasonably heavy drinkers -- and smokers.  Again, it was an acceptable leisure activity that helped them wile away the time...

 

[JT]

I really think Jack and Ennis drink beyond what was considered normal, especially Jack.  To have Laureen said "He drank a lot" meant that Jack was not just a social drinker but becoming an alcoholic.  Perhaps in one of his drunk moments that he told Laureen about Brokeback Mountain.  These two are not drinking for pleasure but to drown the pain with in.

[jacks_key]

The less sex she got - the more blonde her hair became!

That's true, isn't it?  LOL   

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

That's true, isn't it?  LOL   

Not really. At some point she gave up on hair and went over onto yellow nylon wigs. 

This is getting  !

[manhattangirl]

I really think Jack and Ennis drink beyond what was considered normal, especially Jack.  To have Laureen said "He drank a lot" meant that Jack was not just a social drinker but becoming an alcoholic.  Perhaps in one of his drunk moments that he told Laureen about Brokeback Mountain.  These two are not drinking for pleasure but to drown the pain with in.

Towards the end I also believe Jack was drinking more,  after twenty years of dealing with Ennis,  his need for him, and Ennis unwillingness to consider a life with him took a toll on him.  Lureen, knew Brokeback was important to Jack, I don't if she knew in what context or extent its importance.  But, she knew something, I think that why the coldness on the phone with Ennis.

[JT]

Towards the end I also believe Jack was drinking more,  after twenty years of dealing with Ennis,  his need for him, and Ennis unwillingness to consider a life with him took a toll on him.  Lureen, knew Brokeback was important to Jack, I don't if she knew in what context or extent its importance.  But, she knew something, I think that why the coldness on the phone with Ennis.

20 years of pleasure but also 20 years of unspeakable pain.  The sad thing was that he had no one to turn to for comfort but perhaps alcohol.  I think Laureen knew Brokeback was important to Jack but don't understand the true reason of that importance until she spoke to Ennis.

[Brokeback_1]

omg i just fgound this thread!!!!

jeesus so far as i'm concerned both both those boys needed an alcoholics anonymous meeting!!!~

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

omg i just fgound this thread!!!!

jeesus so far as i'm concerned both both those boys needed an alcoholics anonymous meeting!!!~

Its not quite that bad!

Your text "I couldn't stand it no more. So i fixed it." is very nice by the way.

JFT

[Brokeback_1]

Thank you Jack.

I put that text there because it's true, I couldn't stand it no more so I DID fix it, or rather got out of my own way and allowed change to happen after taking action. That consisted of very small steps, and those steps built and built...... One year ago I was lonely and miserable. I saw Brokeback Mountain on February 7, 2006 at 4:15 PM, was  hit over the head with a bat....and started to aloow change. Today I live in a different state, look at the Rocky mountains from my window, have a brand new [first] wife, love her to pieces and am so happy i'm afraid to say it because it might jinx it roflmao.


I really do think they needed AA meetings, Jack in particular. that boy drank like i used to drink. And remember how Lureen said 'he drank a lot'?? For a texan wife to say that, Jack had to drink like a fish. And it's logical, because he was miserable.

[tpe]

Jack must have indeed drank a lot in the end, but my impression is that he was still far off from being a dypsomaniac -- well, at least as far as the movie shows us; he was not perpetually drunk, it seems. If he were able to drive so many miles to meet Ennis and help out at his parents' ranch after that, then I would expect that he was sober enough many a time and had not lost full control over himself, like so many dypsomaniacs.

Still, if he were to attend an AA meeting, it would only reveal to us what we probably already know can't be solved just by Jack: he drank because of his frustration of not being able to get Ennis to commit to a life together. 

Drink is the symptom of a greater core problem for Jack.   Even if Jack drank less, I am sure it would not have mattered as far as his happiness was concerned.  Trying to move on with Randall tells us that Jack was far from complacent, and that his drinking did not get in the way of his search for happiness.

[Brokeback_1]

Actually tpe, I have some very good points to talk about with this, in depth. the problem is that I MUST get some sleep roflmaoooo, so please let me answer tomorrow. Jack Twist as a young person was just a heavy drinker, but as a mature adult he seems to have 'crossed the line'; in the short story AP gives some very interesting clues, and in the film AL subtley used those clues. It's quite interesting.

By the way, I haven't heard anyone say dypsomaniac in a very long time, what made you remember that term lolol???

There are many many people who can be drunks and still be functional--hold jobs, do well, function in life..... hell, i used to be one of those myself. You might find my perspective interesting!

 Until tomorrow Tom!

Jack

[tpe]

Thanks Jack, for your contributions to the discussion!  No rush.  Whenever you are ready to share your thoughts, we will be here. 

[welshwitch]

There are those who are unhappy and drink to forget it but never appear drunk - they keep an almost steady level of alcohol in their system and are never comletely sober. They also build up a tolerance and so can drink quite a lot without showing many outward effects. This is what I think Jack was most like by the end of his life.

[Brokeback_1]

Sorry it took so long for me to post here, many apologies!

Both of those boys drank too much. Sure, that's what boys did/do, yet they still drank too much. In the short story Jack at 19 tells Ennis they needed plenty of whiskey up there...and that speaks volumes. When Jack was bored, he drank. When Jack wasn't bored, he still drank. Jack from the beginning of the movie was a guy who just DRANK. They opened that bar at what, 7am? They were drinking as the waitress cleaned up for breakfast. The only time I ever did that i was still on a bender from the night before and I ended up in a 12 step program for alcohol and knew I needed one when i was THEIR age when they met. About 10% of the population becomes addicted to alcohol with their first drinks, and I think Jack Twist fell into that 10%. Conversely, Ennis--who in many fanfics is one hell of a drunk!--just falls into the category of a heavy hitter or a binge drinker. he could tie one on and not have it mean much. It seems as if he drank LESS as he grew older, while Jack drank more. Jack NEEDED the booze. When a Texas wife says 'he drank a LOT', you can take it as gospel:her husband drinks like a fish. Jack's general misery made him drink more....but I have a sneakin feeling that if he wasn't miserable he would have drank just as much, it was his excuse.

Being an abuser of alcohol does not mean a skid row drunk. Most --but not all--of the men I know in meetings managed to keep up the facade of normal living. Their families knew, their friends knew, 'but he could handle it' was the general comment. Except he couldn't handle it, Jack's and THEIR wives knew that it WAS a facade.

Jack couldn't handle his life, he hated every minute of it. His entire existence was a lie, and by the end he simply could not stand it, or himself. He drowned himself in a bottle before he drowned in his blood. You do not have to be perpetually drunk to BE a drunk; Jack was most certainly NOT a perpetual drunk---but a drunk he was, all the same.

[tpe]

Sorry it took so long for me to post here, many apologies!

Both of those boys drank too much. Sure, that's what boys did/do, yet they still drank too much. In the short story Jack at 19 tells Ennis they needed plenty of whiskey up there...and that speaks volumes. When Jack was bored, he drank. When Jack wasn't bored, he still drank. Jack from the beginning of the movie was a guy who just DRANK. They opened that bar at what, 7am? They were drinking as the waitress cleaned up for breakfast. The only time I ever did that i was still on a bender from the night before and I ended up in a 12 step program for alcohol and knew I needed one when i was THEIR age when they met. About 10% of the population becomes addicted to alcohol with their first drinks, and I think Jack Twist fell into that 10%. Conversely, Ennis--who in many fanfics is one hell of a drunk!--just falls into the category of a heavy hitter or a binge drinker. he could tie one on and not have it mean much. It seems as if he drank LESS as he grew older, while Jack drank more. Jack NEEDED the booze. When a Texas wife says 'he drank a LOT', you can take it as gospel:her husband drinks like a fish. Jack's general misery made him drink more....but I have a sneakin feeling that if he wasn't miserable he would have drank just as much, it was his excuse.

Being an abuser of alcohol does not mean a skid row drunk. Most --but not all--of the men I know in meetings managed to keep up the facade of normal living. Their families knew, their friends knew, 'but he could handle it' was the general comment. Except he couldn't handle it, Jack's and THEIR wives knew that it WAS a facade.

Jack couldn't handle his life, he hated every minute of it. His entire existence was a lie, and by the end he simply could not stand it, or himself. He drowned himself in a bottle before he drowned in his blood. You do not have to be perpetually drunk to BE a drunk; Jack was most certainly NOT a perpetual drunk---but a drunk he was, all the same.

No need for apologies, Brokeback_1.  A discussion is always welcome, but not insisted upon immediately. 

I would agree that Ennis and Jack were heavy drinkers, relatively speaking.  But I would think that they did not drink more than the average ranch hand or sheep herder up in the cold mountains.

They needed a lot of whiskey up in the mountains primarily to feel warm (again, I do realize that this is just a physiological effect and has no true bearing on the body's temperature), as the common wisdom dictated.  When Proulx listed the supplies they brough out with them, one has the distinct impression that there was nothing special about it -- it was probably standard for all herders going up the mountains.

Drink was a social activity for them.  This would be in keeping with their drinking at the bar after meeting Aguirre.  It was also a source of recreation -- a way of forgetting one's problems.  It is no mystery that the very poor throughout history have always relied on cheap alcohol for pleasure -- and the powers that be made sure that they got it, in order to keep the masses happy.  Beer was certainly what kept the builders of the Pyramids going.  "Bread and Circuses" also meant beer and cheap alcoholic beverages to the Romans.  And gin was the drink that kept the 18th century London masses at bay: "No gin, no king".  Absinthe was beloved of the Parisian poor (notably struggling artists and writers) in fin de siecle Paris. 

I do think Ennis and Jack were no different from the other people who made up their milieu.  I am not saying that they didn't drink too much.  I am simply saying that they were no different from the rest in their world.

To make my point, I note that the average college student in the US consumes enormous quantities of cheap alcoholic beverages.  We may consider each one of them as heavy drinkers, but I doubt that they were different from the rest of their peers.  And I doubt that most students after graduating ended up as dypsomaniacs, even if the thirst for beer and alcohol would prove to be life-long.

[Brokeback_1]

Well yes that's all true...but i was concentrating on one individual--although still mentioining that 'thats what boys did/do' That individual was jack. Ennis grew out of it by and large. Jack became a functional alcoholic, every sign was there.

[tpe]

I do think that Ennis drank as much as Jack.  Cassie's comment: "Drunks like you, demanding beer after beer..."

Cassie's comment in fact illustrates my point: that Ennis and Jack were not alone in their pursuit of drink.  She would have said it was a "necessity" for them.

[Brokeback_1]

I make no bones about agreeing with you Thomas: they drank the way 'everybody' did, in that world and time. Yet this doesnt detract from  the feeling that Jack was alcoholic. I asked some alcoholism counselors I know to watch Brokeback because I was curious about their professional opinion...plus, being in recovery so long, lol, I had a keen interest in the question.... To my surprise every one had already seen it. They were unanimous in that Jack showed all the symptoms of the alcoholic personality, while Ennis---and I own this surprised me--was called a 'binge drinker'. BVut all 3 professionals considered jack an alcoholic.

[Toadily]

I make no bones about agreeing with you Thomas: they drank the way 'everybody' did, in that world and time. Yet this doesnt detract from  the feeling that Jack was alcoholic. I asked some alcoholism counselors I know to watch Brokeback because I was curious about their professional opinion...plus, being in recovery so long, lol, I had a keen interest in the question.... To my surprise every one had already seen it. They were unanimous in that Jack showed all the symptoms of the alcoholic personality, while Ennis---and I own this surprised me--was called a 'binge drinker'. BVut all 3 professionals considered jack an alcoholic.

That's interesting they put Ennis in a separate catagory.  Why was that?

[Brokeback_1]

They said he drank in a different way from Jack Twist.

One said something quite interesting to me, namely Ennis was obviously a heavy hitter but more or less the sort of male who ended up drinking on weekends--witness the scene where Alma wants to go to the Church Social on a Saturday night. Ennis is drinking at home and he obviously has a buzz on. This is why it surprised me: for all intents and purposes Ennis was drinking alone. It's quite common, something millions of men do and it more or less obscured the notion that he wasn't getting very drunk, to me at least. When I drank alone I got so wasted I ended up in a 12 step program roflmao. Ennis just relaxed with some beers. All 3 said he seemed to drink to a certain point as an adult w/o loosing his faculties. MOST OF THE TIME.

The 2nd of the 3 pointed out that JT just drank. Time of day, location, etc didn't matter. All 3 brought up the morning drinking as evidenced in the scene immediately following the interview with Aguirre. Jack was starting his day off with some  beers. This is always a clear sign of alcoholism or at the very least the path to it. Ennis would not have been drinking that early if it wasn't for Jack, and even his lack of funds didn't seem to change that. Jack drank faster then Ennis in that morning scene and that too is a clue.

All 3 said jack had all the makings of an alcoholic personality from the beginning and 2 of the 3 also said he prob had not 'crossed the line' up on Brokeback. He paced himself while allowing Ennis to get drunker the night of FNIT....which brings me OT to my pet theory of Jack staying sober because he wanted Ennis that night and Ennis getting completely hammered because he wanted Jack that night, wimping out at the final moment and staying by the fire......

[welshwitch]

How interesting! It fits with my theory that Jack has an addictive personality; had he been born in another place and time I think he'd have taken drugs and probably become addicted to some. He's evidently the one who produces the spliff up on Brokeback - I can't see Ennis even knowing where to go to buy the stuff.

But in a place like childress and married to Lureen alcohol was more socially acceptable and easily obtainable, so he drank.

[tpe]

quote from tpe >>>....So you believe as the ancient Greeks did: that it is through alcohol that the gods speak to/through Mortals and that the hidden self is finally revealed...There is certainly much truth to this, also....<<<

HiYa all !!!

In regards to alcohol being so prominent throughout the film,I have a sense there's a bigger picture here then I have been able to come to grips with and I don't feel it is being over anaylized in the least.

One reason I suspect this, is the fact that Ennis and Alma's apartment isn't just above a laundromat, which has its own symbolisms and metaphors.It's connected to a "Liquor" store.You can see a huge Liquor sign displayed prominently when Ennis truck comes rushing haphazrdly into the parking space below his apartment,narriowly missing a cowboy hatted pedestrian.

Oddly, this scene reminds me of the time at the beginning when Aquires vehicle came rushing into the parking lot and narrowly missed Ennis.

That is an interesting detail.  I had not noticed that.  I did notice the Elk's Lodge, but not the liquor store...

[tpe]

I make no bones about agreeing with you Thomas: they drank the way 'everybody' did, in that world and time. Yet this doesnt detract from  the feeling that Jack was alcoholic. I asked some alcoholism counselors I know to watch Brokeback because I was curious about their professional opinion...plus, being in recovery so long, lol, I had a keen interest in the question.... To my surprise every one had already seen it. They were unanimous in that Jack showed all the symptoms of the alcoholic personality, while Ennis---and I own this surprised me--was called a 'binge drinker'. BVut all 3 professionals considered jack an alcoholic.

Hello Brokeback_1!  By a certain standard, I would say that yes, perhaps people like them can be considered alcoholic.  But I would disagree that Ennis was any less into drink than Jack.

For example: in the entire movie, we don't see Jack drunk at all!  And the only person we see totally drunk was Ennis -- at the start of the FNIT.  Upon further observation, I would claim the authorities to be in error, because the only comment that suggests that Jack drank a lot came from Lureen, and we have no way to check the veracity of her claim from any scene in the movie.  If they would also count the scenes carefully, they will see that Ennis had more scenes where he was shown drinking.  Hence, I see no particular reason from the evidence of the movie that they would claim that Jack drank more than Ennis.

To summarize, I should note that the only testimonial that Jack drank more than the ordinary was from Lureen.  By simply counting the number of scenes showing them drinking alcohol in the movie, it would appear that Ennis was the more frequent drinker, and that anything outside what we see would be speculation.

Again, this is my view of things and I understand that other people will see things differently.  That is in the nature of a discussion.  Thanks for elucidating your own point of view.

 

[aintfoolin]

Great discussion and posts! Well Jack was was'nt desperate like Jack Lemmon's character in that movie  Days of Wine and Roses, but he did drink to releive his suffering over his screwed up situation. Living with the Newsome family was no picnic in the park for him and Ennis did'nt help by refusing to commit to the sweet life he wanted. His drinking went to the heart of his unsuccesful attempts to permanently snag Ennis but I don't picture Jack as some desperate alcoholic thogh. He was able to drive the long distances several times to see Ennis without accident or falling off horses etc as if he could'nt handle the alcohol. Plus he was able to maintain a great sex life too according to the SS, even over time. He was'nt stealing ,or robbing banks or hurting anyone to get it either as true "addicts" do. No. I think he drank when things got a little much for him to deal with.Lurren? I'm very suspicious of her motives in her converstion with Ennis. She was so damn calculating and cold who the hell knows what she was up to. I beleive Jack probably did drink more at home with her , but he had a good reason. Jack was stuck btween a rock and a hard place so who could blame the guy really. This is the way I see it.

[Brokeback_1]

OT--I used to think she was a cold woman. Don't any longer.

[Edmund-Paul, The Baron of Ree]

OT--I used to think she was a cold woman. Don't any longer.

I dont think Lureen was cold to start with, life made her like that. When young she was quite vivatious - a barrel racing, mating call come-on, high speed bra removal artist! It may have been a shotgun wedding.

I think she cooled as she grew dissilusioned with life. 20 years traped in a lie with a man whos heart was on BBM and body was often in Mexico, rose stemming with Ennis or cabin building with Randall made sure of that.

The cooler she got, the blonder she got.