Author Topic: was ennis gay ?  (Read 666908 times)

Offline jackster

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #660 on: Mar 31, 2008, 04:24 AM »
. . . . It was a story about a man who learned about love from another man. And together, they traveled the journey of gay men living in rural America, a journey of self-discovery, courage, and compassion.

Right on, brother Andrew.  O0
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manhattangirl

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #661 on: Mar 31, 2008, 05:05 AM »
Just to re-state what I think in simpler terms:

Ennis was ambivalent before he met Jack - not gay, not straight, definitely confused, possible bi.

Jack was definitely attracted to men in summer of '63 - definitely not straight, perhaps bi, perhaps gay.

As Anne Proulx said, they entered Brokeback Mountain ambiguous about their sexuality and left as gay men.

However, Ennis always viewed himself, as not queer, and Jack was just a fishing buddy or hunting buddy. He never accepted his own love for Jack, until Cassie showed him that "Girls (and guys) don't fall in love for fun."


Even then, Ennis never really accepted himself as gay, until he found the two shirts, and realized that Jack also loved him for all those years. That's when he finally accepted who he was. That's when he became a gay man, not the gay man who would march on Pride Day, or go to gay bars, but a gay man who accepted the love of his love was a man. No more, and no less.

Brokeback Mountain was not a story about two gay men who fell in love.

It was a story about a man who learned about love from another man. And together, they traveled the journey of gay men living in rural America, a journey of self-discovery, courage, and compassion.


The acceptance of his sexuality and the acceptance of Jack's love are two different things.   Ennis would have been deemed nuts or in state of denial if he thought his time with Jack was actually just a "fishing trip"  or "hunting trip", and Jack was just his buddy.   Then what went on for twenty years was done out some of kind of sick complusion, and not love.  I think Alma took care of the sexuality thing, when she brought out in the open on Thanksgivings.

Ennis's problem was accepting Jack's love, and believing Jack love him in returned, that's what happened in Jack room, and that's what the shirts were about.  He understood he was actually loved.   

I could be wrong but just my take.

Offline jackster

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #662 on: Mar 31, 2008, 06:28 AM »
Ennis's problem was accepting Jack's love, and believing Jack loved him in returned, that's what happened in Jack room, and that's what the shirts were about. He understood he was actually loved.

I'm also of the belief that what Ennis discovered in Jack's room (via the shirts) was himself. That he loved Jack.

He loved a man. I feel this was Ennis's epiphany. JMHO
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Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #663 on: Mar 31, 2008, 07:06 AM »
Just to re-state what I think in simpler terms:

Ennis was ambivalent before he met Jack - not gay, not straight, definitely confused, possible bi.

Jack was definitely attracted to men in summer of '63 - definitely not straight, perhaps bi, perhaps gay.

As Anne Proulx said, they entered Brokeback Mountain ambiguous about their sexuality and left as gay men.

However, Ennis always viewed himself, as not queer, and Jack was just a fishing buddy or hunting buddy. He never accepted his own love for Jack, until Cassie showed him that "Girls (and guys) don't fall in love for fun."

Even then, Ennis never really accepted himself as gay, until he found the two shirts, and realized that Jack also loved him for all those years. That's when he finally accepted who he was. That's when he became a gay man, not the gay man who would march on Pride Day, or go to gay bars, but a gay man who accepted the love of his love was a man. No more, and no less.

Brokeback Mountain was not a story about two gay men who fell in love.

It was a story about a man who learned about love from another man. And together, they traveled the journey of gay men living in rural America, a journey of self-discovery, courage, and compassion.


And given my last post, I still disagree. Ennis was born gay. You don't have to know it to be it. Similarly, you don't have to grow up and be told your anatomy is of the 'male' nature, it just is.

The story is much more than Ennis' discovery or eventual acceptance of his sexuality, oh yes -- Agreed.

But the sexuality alone plays quite a role in the connection between 9 year old and 39 year old, womb and Earl, Earl and Brokeback Mountain, Jack and no Jack. He was born gay.

Per usual, just my take and finally, MHO.

 :f) ....  :c) ....  :f): psSst! Say, Harold... you got that April edition of Men on Trampolines?  ;D
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Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #664 on: Mar 31, 2008, 07:21 AM »
I'm also of the belief that what Ennis discovered in Jack's room (via the shirts) was himself. That he loved Jack.

He loved a man. I feel this was Ennis's epiphany. JMHO

Excellent. Where you believe the epiphany was that he loved a man, I believe it was that he had experienced love at all; he was staring true love in the face. The epiphany was that he was absent the true love and only just now realized that he had it. To lose love the moment you realize it exists is a boulder thrown at your head, heart, and balls, m'kay? It hurts  ;D
 :*( But seriously. I think Ennis had acknowledged his "love" for a man during the time of Brokeback, the reunion kiss. -- Not with his mind nor that of society. But inside, his emotions (him and Jack back on the mountain with the Earl flashback and Jack's hand on Ennis' cheek) had swallowed his sexual identity so to speak. And there it sit in him like undigested meat does for years. The raw peak of his revellation at the end was shaking hands with true love, and then seeing it off on a Greyhound bus driven by fate, over the edge of his personal world.
Yes, in the trailer scene with Alma Jr., he still wasn't able to express his homosexuality via talk of loving Jack. And who knows when/if Ennis will ever 'come out'. But the power of Brokeback Mountain was the moment of love. The knowing it for what it was. In my heart, this is how I believe people from every walk of life can brutally relate to the whole thing.
« Last Edit: Mar 31, 2008, 09:30 AM by orangetruck »
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Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #665 on: Mar 31, 2008, 07:23 AM »


Ennis's problem was accepting Jack's love, and believing Jack love him in returned, that's what happened in Jack room, and that's what the shirts were about.  He understood he was actually loved.   



Agreed.  :)
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Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #666 on: Mar 31, 2008, 07:51 AM »
Just to re-state what I think in simpler terms:

Ennis was ambivalent before he met Jack - not gay, not straight, definitely confused, possible bi.

Jack was definitely attracted to men in summer of '63 - definitely not straight, perhaps bi, perhaps gay.

As Anne Proulx said, they entered Brokeback Mountain ambiguous about their sexuality and left as gay men.

However, Ennis always viewed himself, as not queer, and Jack was just a fishing buddy or hunting buddy. He never accepted his own love for Jack, until Cassie showed him that "Girls (and guys) don't fall in love for fun."

Even then, Ennis never really accepted himself as gay, until he found the two shirts, and realized that Jack also loved him for all those years. That's when he finally accepted who he was. That's when he became a gay man, not the gay man who would march on Pride Day, or go to gay bars, but a gay man who accepted the love of his love was a man. No more, and no less.

Brokeback Mountain was not a story about two gay men who fell in love.

It was a story about a man who learned about love from another man. And together, they traveled the journey of gay men living in rural America, a journey of self-discovery, courage, and compassion.


I believe in the ambiguity of the story as a matter of principle.

But to be faithful to this ambiguity, I also think that we should not say that BBM was NOT a story about gay men who fell in love.  People CAN interpret it this way.  The ambiguity of the story works both ways -- and that is what makes this story so great.


Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #667 on: Mar 31, 2008, 07:54 AM »
I believe in the ambiguity of the story as a matter of principle.

But to be faithful to this ambiguity, I also think that we should not say that BBM was NOT a story about gay men who fell in love.  People CAN interpret it this way.  The ambiguity of the story works both ways -- and that is what makes this story so great.



Sometimes I can't express how much I love your input as both an intelligible moderator and film fan with an individual opinion, Thomas.  :^^)
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Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #668 on: Mar 31, 2008, 08:06 AM »
OT: Thanks orangetruck.  I think my responses are only as good as the input of other people on this thread.  I love the way people express themselves so well in this part of the forum, independent of whether we agree with each other or not.


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #669 on: Apr 01, 2008, 01:34 AM »
I believe in the ambiguity of the story as a matter of principle.

But to be faithful to this ambiguity, I also think that we should not say that BBM was NOT a story about gay men who fell in love.  People CAN interpret it this way.  The ambiguity of the story works both ways -- and that is what makes this story so great.


Agreed, but what is unique about Brokeback Mountain, compared to other gay romantic stories, from Mambo Italiano, Defying Gravity, Latter Days, etc, is the fact that Ennis, and possibly Jack, began the story as ambiguous sexually, and discover his sexually as the story develops. We the audience is pulled into his journey along with him, and lived the gut-wrenching story with him.

I agree that the same story can be interpreted at many different levels, especially great stories. I agree that there really is NOT a single right or wrong simplistic answer in literature. It is why I love coming to this forum to learn all the different views and perspectives. And I am always grateful for the friendship here.

It is what drew Ennis to Jack, and Jack to Ennis. Someone asked in another thread if Ennis sacrificed his heterosexuality for friendship and companionship. I did not have the chance to respond then, but I can say that it was not a sacrifice. It was merely a shifting of his priorities. When what Jack offers to him meant more than what society imposed on him, expected of him, Ennis went with what felt right. Love is always preferably to fear. It is why repressive measures to ensure a person's heterosexuality is foolish. First of all, it is partly genetic, and partly nurture, and partly circumstance. In Jack's case, I dare say it is more genetic. In Ennis case, I speculate that his sexuality was hanging in the balance when they met on Brokeback in '63. Jack was the key that turned the lock and released the love in Ennis. I doubt any other man, under any other circumstance could have done the job. Jack was Ennis' true love. With Jack, Ennis was gay. Without Jack, I am not so sure.

Just my own interpretation.  :c)

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Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #670 on: Apr 01, 2008, 01:49 AM »
Agreed, but what is unique about Brokeback Mountain, compared to other gay romantic stories, from Mambo Italiano, Defying Gravity, Latter Days, etc, is the fact that Ennis, and possibly Jack, began the story as ambiguous sexually, and discover his sexually as the story develops. We the audience is pulled into his journey along with him, and lived the gut-wrenching story with him.

I agree that the same story can be interpreted at many different levels, especially great stories. I agree that there really is NOT a single right or wrong simplistic answer in literature. It is why I love coming to this forum to learn all the different views and perspectives. And I am always grateful for the friendship here.

It is what drew Ennis to Jack, and Jack to Ennis. Someone asked in another thread if Ennis sacrificed his heterosexuality for friendship and companionship. I did not have the chance to respond then, but I can say that it was not a sacrifice. It was merely a shifting of his priorities. When what Jack offers to him meant more than what society imposed on him, expected of him, Ennis went with what felt right. Love is always preferably to fear. It is why repressive measures to ensure a person's heterosexuality is foolish. First of all, it is partly genetic, and partly nurture, and partly circumstance. In Jack's case, I dare say it is more genetic. In Ennis case, I speculate that his sexuality was hanging in the balance when they met on Brokeback in '63. Jack was the key that turned the lock and released the love in Ennis. I doubt any other man, under any other circumstance could have done the job. Jack was Ennis' true love. With Jack, Ennis was gay. Without Jack, I am not so sure.

Just my own interpretation.  :c)



Very unconvincing, but then I think I've heard this before. :P -- We're all in this together. 

I think that with Jack, Ennis' door was unlocked so he could experience love instead of being trapped away from it. He was gay but had been rendered fearful of that part of himself by Earl's image.
I don't see it as Ennis only being gay with Jack, that seems too preschool a perception. That's not an insult, I just think the picture isn't that superficial. Ennis' first and possibly only opportunity to absolutely love, was with Jack.

Homosexuality was genetic, imo. It was something like spontaneity in yours I guess.  :s)
Any way ya slice it that's my interpretive response to your interpretation. Established.  :cr)

Great topic we have here.   :c)
« Last Edit: Apr 01, 2008, 01:57 AM by orangetruck »
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #671 on: Apr 01, 2008, 02:01 AM »

Any way ya slice it that's my interpretive response to your interpretation. Established.  :cr)

Great topic we have here.   :c)

Interpretation is what great literature, and great art, is all about. If all movies and stories have only one interpretation, then it would be pretty boring.

  ;D  :cr)
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Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #672 on: Apr 01, 2008, 02:06 AM »
Interpretation is what great literature, and great art, is all about. If all movies and stories have only one interpretation, then it would be pretty boring.

  ;D  :cr)

Yeah!  &**)

Take the banner, I like how it states: Born from their love ... forever bound by ours.
Works a little better than: Born from their homosexuality... forever bound by society.  %&)
The latter works on one level, the former on a deeper one.
single malt scotch in rotation  $)  :c)
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Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #673 on: Apr 01, 2008, 07:15 AM »
Agreed, but what is unique about Brokeback Mountain, compared to other gay romantic stories, from Mambo Italiano, Defying Gravity, Latter Days, etc, is the fact that Ennis, and possibly Jack, began the story as ambiguous sexually, and discover his sexually as the story develops. We the audience is pulled into his journey along with him, and lived the gut-wrenching story with him.

I agree that the same story can be interpreted at many different levels, especially great stories. I agree that there really is NOT a single right or wrong simplistic answer in literature. It is why I love coming to this forum to learn all the different views and perspectives. And I am always grateful for the friendship here.

It is what drew Ennis to Jack, and Jack to Ennis. Someone asked in another thread if Ennis sacrificed his heterosexuality for friendship and companionship. I did not have the chance to respond then, but I can say that it was not a sacrifice. It was merely a shifting of his priorities. When what Jack offers to him meant more than what society imposed on him, expected of him, Ennis went with what felt right. Love is always preferably to fear. It is why repressive measures to ensure a person's heterosexuality is foolish. First of all, it is partly genetic, and partly nurture, and partly circumstance. In Jack's case, I dare say it is more genetic. In Ennis case, I speculate that his sexuality was hanging in the balance when they met on Brokeback in '63. Jack was the key that turned the lock and released the love in Ennis. I doubt any other man, under any other circumstance could have done the job. Jack was Ennis' true love. With Jack, Ennis was gay. Without Jack, I am not so sure.

Just my own interpretation.  :c)

Your interpretation is well stated.  I am sure that others share your views, even though I beg to differ in the details.  The beauty here is that Ennis's sexuality and sexual motivations can be read differently according to one's own unique insight and experience.  I never tire in saying that this question reveals more about ourselves, rather than the subject at hand.


Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #674 on: Apr 01, 2008, 07:25 AM »
Very unconvincing, but then I think I've heard this before. :P -- We're all in this together. 

I think that with Jack, Ennis' door was unlocked so he could experience love instead of being trapped away from it. He was gay but had been rendered fearful of that part of himself by Earl's image.
I don't see it as Ennis only being gay with Jack, that seems too preschool a perception. That's not an insult, I just think the picture isn't that superficial. Ennis' first and possibly only opportunity to absolutely love, was with Jack.

Homosexuality was genetic, imo. It was something like spontaneity in yours I guess.  :s)
Any way ya slice it that's my interpretive response to your interpretation. Established.  :cr)

Great topic we have here.   :c)

Personally, I do agree with you on the broader points. I do believe that Ennis was homosexual/gay, and that his conflicted personailty arose from this and what he was preconditioned to believe.

Also, I don't take gayness to connote anything stereotypical.  Society at large has made it seem that way.   This is very far from the origins of this term.

 

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #675 on: Apr 01, 2008, 09:50 AM »
Your interpretation is well stated.  I am sure that others share your views, even though I beg to differ in the details.  The beauty here is that Ennis's sexuality and sexual motivations can be read differently according to one's own unique insight and experience.  I never tire in saying that this question reveals more about ourselves, rather than the subject at hand.


Absolutely! Great art inspires us according to who we are. You said it exactly the way I feel.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #676 on: Apr 01, 2008, 09:53 AM »
Absolutely! Great art inspires us according to who we are. You said it exactly the way I feel.

Great Art inspires life.  For lesser things, it is the other way around. :)

The current topic is a rich journey into who we are...



Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #677 on: Apr 04, 2008, 02:23 AM »
Great Art inspires life.  For lesser things, it is the other way around. :)

The current topic is a rich journey into who we are...




Good point.
Anybody else wonder how Ennis' brother interpreted Earl? What would it be like for him if he'd been born gay. And if he's straight? It is interesting to consider the brother's angst or stoicism with or without the strain of hidden (or possible just stunted) sexual identity and nature. This may be headed off topic, so I'll stop. It just leaves me curious. Ennis' brother was in the scene where one image has the potential of hindering sexuality and much more. I'll bet Annie could write another successful short story on the brother's journey.
What a load of wishful thinking on my part.

But I do find this compelling..
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Offline jackster

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #678 on: Apr 04, 2008, 04:37 AM »
Good point.
Anybody else wonder how Ennis' brother interpreted Earl? What would it be like for him if he'd been born gay. . .

Interesting thought OT. If it's too OT mods will need to shoot us down. Earlier it was mentioned that little Ennis, if indeed he was "born gay" may have picked up on the entire Earl/Rich saga to a much greater degree than his non-gay brother simply because he felt an affinity for a male/male relationship even though at that young age he didn't understand what it was all about. In fact the E+R story may have turned on a light in his mind that would have otherwise been unilluminated regarding even the possibility of a male/male relationship. (I know it worked like that for me). So the question of his bro - if he had no homo inclinations, the view of Earl may have been just a dead man in a ditch, like seeing a gruesome car accident. He may not have related to it in any special way, cause the whole E+R story never really "clicked" with him. But if he was like Ennis then it might have had the same effect - or even if he wasn't gay, it might have made him more sympathetic to homo life styles later in life. Just some thoughts . . .
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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #679 on: Apr 04, 2008, 05:09 AM »
In fact the E+R story may have turned on a light in his mind that would have otherwise been unilluminated regarding even the possibility of a male/male relationship. (I know it worked like that for me). So the question of his bro - if he had no homo inclinations, the view of Earl may have been just a dead man in a ditch, like seeing a gruesome car accident. He may not have related to it in any special way, cause the whole E+R story never really "clicked" with him. But if he was like Ennis then it might have had the same effect - or even if he wasn't gay, it might have made him more sympathetic to homo life styles later in life. Just some thoughts . . .
Yeah wonderful thoughts, making me think even more about the thoughts I have often pondered. I believe you are born gay; for some that switch is automatically on and they are aware from an early age, others fight or suppress it until that special connection is made with someone of the same sex and that light in the mind is switched on; Ennis even though he would have accepted the fact about his male/male attraction still fought with it until it was too late.
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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #680 on: Apr 04, 2008, 09:54 AM »
Interesting thought OT. If it's too OT mods will need to shoot us down. Earlier it was mentioned that little Ennis, if indeed he was "born gay" may have picked up on the entire Earl/Rich saga to a much greater degree than his non-gay brother simply because he felt an affinity for a male/male relationship even though at that young age he didn't understand what it was all about. In fact the E+R story may have turned on a light in his mind that would have otherwise been unilluminated regarding even the possibility of a male/male relationship. (I know it worked like that for me). So the question of his bro - if he had no homo inclinations, the view of Earl may have been just a dead man in a ditch, like seeing a gruesome car accident. He may not have related to it in any special way, cause the whole E+R story never really "clicked" with him. But if he was like Ennis then it might have had the same effect - or even if he wasn't gay, it might have made him more sympathetic to homo life styles later in life. Just some thoughts . . .

Yes, I do think that seeing the dead Earl affected Ennis more than it affected his brother, because Ennis was indeed gay. Of course, at nine years old, Ennis didn't understand this, but I do believe that people are born gay, so it makes sense. Ennis was more horrified than his brother because deep down inside he knew something about himself. I agree with you that for Ennis's brother, it just didn't "click", but for Ennis it did, and it definitely haunted him for the rest of his life. The way he tells Jack about it, you can tell that it's a painful and frightening bad memory that just wouldn't leave him alone.

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #681 on: Apr 04, 2008, 09:56 AM »
Yes, I do think that seeing the dead Earl affected Ennis more than it affected his brother, because Ennis was indeed gay. Of course, at nine years old, Ennis didn't understand this, but I do believe that people are born gay, so it makes sense. Ennis was more horrified than his brother because deep down inside he knew something about himself. I agree with you that for Ennis's brother, it just didn't "click", but for Ennis it did, and it definitely haunted him for the rest of his life. The way he tells Jack about it, you can tell that it's a painful and frightening bad memory that just wouldn't leave him alone.

hmm it was very obviouse of this. it was most certainly the main event that sparked Ennis fear of society.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #682 on: Apr 04, 2008, 10:34 AM »
Yeah wonderful thoughts, making me think even more about the thoughts I have often pondered. I believe you are born gay; for some that switch is automatically on and they are aware from an early age, others fight or suppress it until that special connection is made with someone of the same sex and that light in the mind is switched on; Ennis even though he would have accepted the fact about his male/male attraction still fought with it until it was too late.

I think it is not a matter of being born gay or straight. The biology, the biochemistry, the genetic basis of a person being gay or bi or whatever, is not totally clear. There are indications that some parts of the brain associated with emotions are more similar being gay men and straight women, and straight men and lesbians, but there is no evidence that this is a predisposition or a cause, only that, by the time of death (because all the evidence was gather post-mortem), the brain is indeed different, indicating some biological component of sexuality. There is no surprise there.

I do agree that there is a genetic component to being gay, and I like your analogy of a switch being turned on. It is possible that the genetic component of being gay is dormant in most people, if not ALL people, and that depending on the person, the switch is more easily or more difficult to switch on. I think all we can do is speculate until more scientific evidence is gathered.

I like the continuous spectrum of latent gayness, and the disparate difficulty in switching on the latent potential. It explains a lot of empirical observation of people's sexuality and behavior. It is a simple but far-reaching theory.

To bring it back to topic, I think Ennis has more latent potential than his brother, who seem to me to be very straight in the short story, a chip off the old block, whereas Ennis seem to me to be more sensitive, at nine, and emotional. Perhaps it was his affinity to the queer old birds Earl and Rich that prompted his old man to murder Earl. Who knows for sure? The traumatic scene, however, I dare say made the switch more exposed, ready for the right person to come along. Jack was the right person, in the right place, at the right time, and did everything right. In my opinion, that is why they are soul mates, because Ennis also gave Jack what Jack needed, faith and trust and loyalty. To be pissed on and ignore most of his life, Jack was thrilled to be the center of attention of this capable rock solid cowboy. To be appreciated, to be needed, to be loved. That was what Jack needed from Ennis. That is what Ennis realized too late at the diner, when Cassie said, love is not about fun. That is when Ennis realized, he too needed Jack. That's when he began the journey of accepting himself as a gay man, even though, I still insist, that in the summer of '63, before he met Jack, Ennis was sexually ambiguous and confused. The switch could have stayed off. But then he would never be as happy as he was by the river, sending up a prayer of thanks to heaven. Or, would he? What if Cassie came along after Alma divorced him for other reason?

We can speculate all we want. The truth is, we don't know for sure.

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

athena0204

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #683 on: Apr 04, 2008, 11:00 AM »
I think it is not a matter of being born gay or straight. The biology, the biochemistry, the genetic basis of a person being gay or bi or whatever, is not totally clear. There are indications that some parts of the brain associated with emotions are more similar being gay men and straight women, and straight men and lesbians, but there is no evidence that this is a predisposition or a cause, only that, by the time of death (because all the evidence was gather post-mortem), the brain is indeed different, indicating some biological component of sexuality. There is no surprise there.

I do agree that there is a genetic component to being gay, and I like your analogy of a switch being turned on. It is possible that the genetic component of being gay is dormant in most people, if not ALL people, and that depending on the person, the switch is more easily or more difficult to switch on. I think all we can do is speculate until more scientific evidence is gathered.

I like the continuous spectrum of latent gayness, and the disparate difficulty in switching on the latent potential. It explains a lot of empirical observation of people's sexuality and behavior. It is a simple but far-reaching theory.

To bring it back to topic, I think Ennis has more latent potential than his brother, who seem to me to be very straight in the short story, a chip off the old block, whereas Ennis seem to me to be more sensitive, at nine, and emotional. Perhaps it was his affinity to the queer old birds Earl and Rich that prompted his old man to murder Earl. Who knows for sure? The traumatic scene, however, I dare say made the switch more exposed, ready for the right person to come along. Jack was the right person, in the right place, at the right time, and did everything right. In my opinion, that is why they are soul mates, because Ennis also gave Jack what Jack needed, faith and trust and loyalty. To be pissed on and ignore most of his life, Jack was thrilled to be the center of attention of this capable rock solid cowboy. To be appreciated, to be needed, to be loved. That was what Jack needed from Ennis. That is what Ennis realized too late at the diner, when Cassie said, love is not about fun. That is when Ennis realized, he too needed Jack. That's when he began the journey of accepting himself as a gay man, even though, I still insist, that in the summer of '63, before he met Jack, Ennis was sexually ambiguous and confused. The switch could have stayed off. But then he would never be as happy as he was by the river, sending up a prayer of thanks to heaven. Or, would he? What if Cassie came along after Alma divorced him for other reason?

We can speculate all we want. The truth is, we don't know for sure.



Well, I don't think of it that way, and I suppose you don't either. I don't believe that it's all just brain states, or the like or that gay men and straight women or staight men and gay women have similar emotional patterns. I believe human beings, whether male or female, gay or straight, black or white, etc, etc., have the capacity to feel the same emotions, because that is a part of being human. Emotions don't have to do with the gender or sexual orientation of the person, but rather, they depend upon the individual. For example, if a little boy plays with dolls, it doesn't mean he's gay or if he plays with trucks it doesn't mean he's straight and if a boy is more sensitive or emotional, it doesn't mean he has an affinity to be gay. Such stereotypes are meaningless and foolish, and downright stupid, if you ask me. Things like that are completely social constructs, things made up and conditoned by society, and passed off as the "norm" when they indeed are not the natural order, only a fabrication and inculcation of society. Now, about the affinity to be gay or straight, I think it's a matter of something in attraction. While I don't think there's a "gay gene"...there is something people are born with that gives them an attraction either to males or females. Maybe you're right about there being some sort of "switch" that is more likely to come on in some than others. I feel this because when I think about it, I've known since I was five or six that I'm attracted to boys, and I've heard of many gay people who say they felt some sort of attraction when they were children, so this is a strong indication that gay is not a choice, but just simply how a person is. I don't think that if you have an affinity to be gay, anything can "fix" you and make you straight, or likewise if you have an affinity to be straight, that anything can make you become gay. If more people understood this, perhaps there would be less homophobia. Now, about Ennis. You have a point there about how maybe from a young age he had a liking for Earl and Rich and that his father realized something about him and therefore killed Earl and showed him to Ennis to "scare him straight"...so to speak. I believe Ennis knew it about himself that he was gay, but just kept it hidden and repressed, until Jack came along. Jack had the right attributes to bring out the real Ennis, and not just the fact that Ennis was gay, but bring out the true emotions and feelings in Ennis that Ennis had buried inside himself for years. And if Ennis had never met Jack, it is likely that he would have kept his real self hidden and repressed for his entire life.

Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #684 on: Apr 04, 2008, 11:06 AM »
Interesting thought OT. If it's too OT mods will need to shoot us down. Earlier it was mentioned that little Ennis, if indeed he was "born gay" may have picked up on the entire Earl/Rich saga to a much greater degree than his non-gay brother simply because he felt an affinity for a male/male relationship even though at that young age he didn't understand what it was all about. In fact the E+R story may have turned on a light in his mind that would have otherwise been unilluminated regarding even the possibility of a male/male relationship. (I know it worked like that for me). So the question of his bro - if he had no homo inclinations, the view of Earl may have been just a dead man in a ditch, like seeing a gruesome car accident. He may not have related to it in any special way, cause the whole E+R story never really "clicked" with him. But if he was like Ennis then it might have had the same effect - or even if he wasn't gay, it might have made him more sympathetic to homo life styles later in life. Just some thoughts . . .

Thanks for the response, brings light to the idea.
I do find it interesting too that, given his heterosexuality, his relationship with women may be pierced. Maybe his nature to shelter his partner would be made paramount or less, his fidelity skeletal. It's hard to put a finger on a straight brother's reaction to a man made dickless for living with another man. I even get to wondering if the detail of the missing penis alone affects his sexual/romantic nature, whether that with women or men. Being gay and not having witnessed that kind of trauma, speculation indeed's as far as I go.
But I like that the thread is still moving. And I like your idea of the brother with the possible instillment of sensitivity towards homosexuality, 'specially with modernization. I think a number of us speculates it was his brother attending his and Alma's wedding. I wonder how likely it is that he himself speculated Ennis was gay, seeing as they both experienced potentially the 'same' thing as kids, and ever reads his stoic nature differently than that of himself. Although it's been going on 3 years since I read the SS before the movie came out, I can't accurately place the brother there. But wasn't he quick to move on and stoic in his own right?

Again, in the light of where they come from, I wonder if he suspects Ennis is running on empty still, predicts the marriage will fail and above anyone else, believes his brother was an Earl playing it safe.

Just some vague points but this far into it, it helps to see it from even another character's perspective.  :s)
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #685 on: Apr 04, 2008, 11:15 AM »
Well, I don't think of it that way, and I suppose you don't either. I don't believe that it's all just brain states, or the like or that gay men and straight women or staight men and gay women have similar emotional patterns. I believe human beings, whether male or female, gay or straight, black or white, etc, etc., have the capacity to feel the same emotions, because that is a part of being human. Emotions don't have to do with the gender or sexual orientation of the person, but rather, they depend upon the individual. For example, if a little boy plays with dolls, it doesn't mean he's gay or if he plays with trucks it doesn't mean he's straight and if a boy is more sensitive or emotional, it doesn't mean he has an affinity to be gay. Such stereotypes are meaningless and foolish, and downright stupid, if you ask me. Things like that are completely social constructs, things made up and conditoned by society, and passed off as the "norm" when they indeed are not the natural order, only a fabrication and inculcation of society. Now, about the affinity to be gay or straight, I think it's a matter of something in attraction. While I don't think there's a "gay gene"...there is something people are born with that gives them an attraction either to males or females. Maybe you're right about there being some sort of "switch" that is more likely to come on in some than others. I feel this because when I think about it, I've known since I was five or six that I'm attracted to boys, and I've heard of many gay people who say they felt some sort of attraction when they were children, so this is a strong indication that gay is not a choice, but just simply how a person is. I don't think that if you have an affinity to be gay, anything can "fix" you and make you straight, or likewise if you have an affinity to be straight, that anything can make you become gay. If more people understood this, perhaps there would be less homophobia. Now, about Ennis. You have a point there about how maybe from a young age he had a liking for Earl and Rich and that his father realized something about him and therefore killed Earl and showed him to Ennis to "scare him straight"...so to speak. I believe Ennis knew it about himself that he was gay, but just kept it hidden and repressed, until Jack came along. Jack had the right attributes to bring out the real Ennis, and not just the fact that Ennis was gay, but bring out the true emotions and feelings in Ennis that Ennis had buried inside himself for years. And if Ennis had never met Jack, it is likely that he would have kept his real self hidden and repressed for his entire life.

Hmm...interesting post, but I don't see how you mean about Ennis "knowing" his being gay, at nine. It is part of the problem in general when discussing this issue. There is no clear common understanding of what it means. We all know what it means for ourselves, but we all mean it differently. To me Ennis at nine was not gay, but he was probably sensitive and kind, as was his character throughout the movie. The scene with Earl only traumatized his kind soul, and made him angry, but it was only able to come out in uncontrollable episodes. The anger combined with the isolation and loneliness made him available to Jack's love.

I agree with you that stereotypes are stupid, and it is one of the greatness of Brokeback Mountain that it broke many people's stereotypes of gay men. But gay men themselves will tell you that we also harbour many stereotypes ourselves. It is part of being human. The problems come when we ignore it, and assume that they are true to life, when in fact, they are mere caricatures.

What defines gayness? Attraction? What kind of attraction? There are more questions than there are answers about Ennis.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #686 on: Apr 04, 2008, 11:20 AM »
Thanks for the response, brings light to the idea.
I do find it interesting too that, given his heterosexuality, his relationship with women may be pierced. Maybe his nature to shelter his partner would be made paramount or less, his fidelity skeletal. It's hard to put a finger on a straight brother's reaction to a man made dickless for living with another man. I even get to wondering if the detail of the missing penis alone affects his sexual/romantic nature, whether that with women or men. Being gay and not having witnessed that kind of trauma, speculation indeed's as far as I go.
But I like that the thread is still moving. And I like your idea of the brother with the possible instillment of sensitivity towards homosexuality, 'specially with modernization. I think a number of us speculates it was his brother attending his and Alma's wedding. I wonder how likely it is that he himself speculated Ennis was gay, seeing as they both experienced potentially the 'same' thing as kids, and ever reads his stoic nature differently than that of himself. Although it's been going on 3 years since I read the SS before the movie came out, I can't accurately place the brother there. But wasn't he quick to move on and stoic in his own right?

Again, in the light of where they come from, I wonder if he suspects Ennis is running on empty still, predicts the marriage will fail and above anyone else, believes his brother was an Earl playing it safe.

Just some vague points but this far into it, it helps to see it from even another character's perspective.  :s)

I think it is easy to speculate how a teenager will react to such horror. Either it was horrific as it was for Ennis, or it was fascinating, for bullies and other who have no sympathy for others. Ennis' brother used to beat Ennis a lot (in the shortstory) until Ennis learned to stand up for himself, and fought back.

I don't think there is any real loving relationship between the two, or else Ennis wouldn't be out on his own at nineteen. Or, perhaps, in rural America at that time, 19 was the age to be out on your own. I don't know.

In any case, I think his brother would be at the wedding probably, but not the best man. Then again, it's hard to say.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline orangetruck

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #687 on: Apr 04, 2008, 11:31 AM »
I think it is easy to speculate how a teenager will react to such horror. Either it was horrific as it was for Ennis, or it was fascinating, for bullies and other who have no sympathy for others. Ennis' brother used to beat Ennis a lot (in the shortstory) until Ennis learned to stand up for himself, and fought back.

I don't think there is any real loving relationship between the two, or else Ennis wouldn't be out on his own at nineteen. Or, perhaps, in rural America at that time, 19 was the age to be out on your own. I don't know.

In any case, I think his brother would be at the wedding probably, but not the best man. Then again, it's hard to say.

True. If he was the man I think he was in the background, he seemed light hearted. Not necessarily stoked about being there, but he played what was probably a typical part at a 60's wedding. Or any wedding for that matter. I have avoided them myself.  ;D

Interesting though, I of course have to wonder if Ennis' brother carried a bully kind of persona from having picked up on his father's hate, because he had earlier feelings of either homosexuality (yes, far fetched at ages under 9, but it does happen) or other sensitive friendships with other boys. Maybe as opposed to Ennis' recoil into fear of his homosexuality, the brother channels his father's hate into violence, etc?

By the way, does anyone know his brother's name? My taste buds are drying out.  :P
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

athena0204

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #688 on: Apr 04, 2008, 11:33 AM »
Hmm...interesting post, but I don't see how you mean about Ennis "knowing" his being gay, at nine. It is part of the problem in general when discussing this issue. There is no clear common understanding of what it means. We all know what it means for ourselves, but we all mean it differently. To me Ennis at nine was not gay, but he was probably sensitive and kind, as was his character throughout the movie. The scene with Earl only traumatized his kind soul, and made him angry, but it was only able to come out in uncontrollable episodes. The anger combined with the isolation and loneliness made him available to Jack's love.

I agree with you that stereotypes are stupid, and it is one of the greatness of Brokeback Mountain that it broke many people's stereotypes of gay men. But gay men themselves will tell you that we also harbour many stereotypes ourselves. It is part of being human. The problems come when we ignore it, and assume that they are true to life, when in fact, they are mere caricatures.

What defines gayness? Attraction? What kind of attraction? There are more questions than there are answers about Ennis.

I don't think a nine-year old child can understand what being gay really means. But I think he can just feel attraction, toward males that he can't explain.  Ennis was indeed sensitive and kind all his life, that was indeed his nature, and that definitely has nothing to do with the fact that he was gay, that was a completely separate part of his personality and who he was. But I think he also felt something about attraction, and of course he didn't understand it, but it was there, and perhaps expressed itself in a fascination with Earl and Rich, which his father picked up on. I don't really know what defines attraction, or if it can be explained...but I do know that stereotypes and social constructs are indeed idiotic, that human beings can't be labeled and put in boxes. Who was Ennis? Who was Jack? The bottom line is, they were both human beings, and they feel in love with each other, truly and deeply. They found what most people don't ever find in this life, this true and epic and unconditional love, and the tragedy is in that the circumstances and people they were surrounded by didn't understand, and this cruelty, ignorance, and oppression of society didn't allow them to be who they are and be together the way they were meant to. That's the message, and that's what truly matters.

Offline jackster

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Re: was ennis gay ?
« Reply #689 on: Apr 04, 2008, 12:52 PM »
By the way, does anyone know his brother's name? My taste buds are drying out.  :P

Del Mar.

Sorry, it's been a long day.  ;D  ;D  ;D
we get to drinkin' and talkin' an all