Topic: Thoughts on Ennis's Divorce

[LuvJackNasty]

I was watching the divorce scene and I started to wonder if things would have been different for the boys had Ennis not gotten divorced.
I think the end would have sadly been the same, regardless, but I'm wondering if the strain of the relationship would have been lessened. To me this is a very pivotal point for Jack- he got a big smackdown by not only being rejected by Ennis but in realizing that he could no longer lie to himself that it was Alma/the girls keeping Ennis from living the sweet life. There was no longer anyway for Jack to deny the truth. This is where Jack started to self destruct, IMO. He went to Mexico to gain some control and every meeting with Ennis was tainted with this knowledge that Ennis either didn't want that life together or was too scared to have it- possibly a combination of both. It may have made him push more for that sweet life- calling Ennis out- on subsequent meetings.

I could see how he misinterpretted the postcard- that was their sole form of communication- to set up meetings etc. I know in the SS it says Ennis called Jack and I never could figure out why Jack didn't just ask him- maybe he didn't want the answer, maybe he was too dumbstruck and ecstatic
that his dream was within his grasp that it was inconceivable to him that it wasn't going to happen.

I guess what I'm getting at is do you think the divorce play a big role in the wear and tear or was that just inevitable? Did it speed it up?

[tpe]

This is an interesting question: whether maintaining the status quo would have changed anything.

Interesting to think that Ennis STAYING married to Alma could have alleviated Jack's situation.  Personally, I think it MAY have prolonged Jack's hope.  The reason for this is what you have already mentioned: the first trip to Mexico after the misunderstood signals coming from Ennis.  I agree that that was a turning point for Jack.  It was not because of this fiasco per se, but I think after his divorce, Ennis became much more paranoid an cautious.  Had he and Alma maintained a level of indiference to each other and stayed married (as in the case of Jack and Lureen), Ennis would have probably remained more open to the idea of meeting Jack many times dutring the year.  I think that the divorce heightened Ennis's feeling of guilt and shame -- and that affected his dealing with Jack adversely.

Nevertheless, the divorce probably will not change the end.  The main reason is Ennis.  With or without the divorce, Ennis remains a deeply conflicted man wrestling with his own interior demons.  This was bound to have an effect on his relationship with Jack one way or the other.

 

[FlwrChild]

Absolutely! I hadn't given it any thought before but I do think that the events following the divorce revealed certain truths to Jack that he might have been protected from otherwise. He always seemed to tread very carefully with what he said to Ennis and was wise enough not to push the envelope too much after the reunion trip. Perhaps the strain of the long distance, secret relationship and the infrequent meetings would still not have been so heartbreaking for him if he could have held onto the idea that Ennis would be his comletely if not for his responsibilities to his wife and family.

[tpe]

Absolutely! I hadn't given it any thought before but I do think that the events following the divorce revealed certain truths to Jack that he might have been protected from otherwise. He always seemed to tread very carefully with what he said to Ennis and was wise enough not to push the envelope too much after the reunion trip. Perhaps the strain of the long distance, secret relationship and the infrequent meetings would still not have been so heartbreaking for him if he could have held onto the idea that Ennis would be his comletely if not for his responsibilities to his wife and family.

The irony was that Ennis was probably his in the place that mattered the most...  Before and after the divorce...

[welshwitch]

The divorce clearly shifted the balance. Before it both had wives, families, jobs - after it Ennis had lost his wife, his children were largely out of his reach, except for once a month,  and he'd never been committed to one job;indeed in the early days he's just given up on one, seen Jack, then gone back to a different one. But he knew that Jack wasn't committed to Lureeen and never had been - the time after the first reunion told him that. Jack might have told himself that Ennis wasn't committed to Alm in the sens eof loving her, but felt he had to stay for the sake of the girls, though to believe that he'd have to be pretty good at seeing only what he wanted to.

Once the divorce was over, Ennis had no reason not to leave Riverton and go wherever with Jack, and incidentally it was by this time 1975 and things must have changed to some degree even in the society Ennis was so afraid of. So Jack was forced to confront the fact that Ennis had probably been using Alma and the girls as an excuse but even once they were out of the picture was never going to commit to Jack on a permanent basis.

Every meeting between then and the final one must have been colored by that knowledge - Jack settled for what he could get for another eight years, but it must have had a corrosive effect on him.

[FlwrChild]

The irony was that Ennis was probably his in the place that mattered the most...  Before and after the divorce...

I hope some part of Jack knew that in his heart....

[tpe]

I hope some part of Jack knew that in his heart....

I think he did.  The divorce didn't really matter in the long run.  This one did.

[LuvJackNasty]

Thanks for the comments. I do think that the end would have been the same regardless of the divorce and over time the long distance etc that Flwrchild cited would have eventually taken it's toll.

WW- bringing up the first reunion made me think of something else- that's when Ennis told Jack about Earl- so Jack knew why Ennis was so guarded, but I think the divorce scene and Ennis getting weird with the truck in the distance really opened Jack's eyes to just how deeply that fear ran. I think this is one of those scenes where the one tag line "There are truths you can't deny" fits in so well.

Thomas- I agree- Jack knew deep down inside, in his heart, that Ennis loved him. 

[tpe]

One cannot underestimate, nonetheless, the devastating effect the divorce fiasco had on Jack.   It broke his heart, and we know how much that hurts.

 

[welshwitch]

Jachad already been humiliated so often - by his father, by Jimbo, by Lureen and the Newsomes - now it was Ennis doin the same thing to him. The divorce was theoe thing he thought could change everything, but it didn't. so even when Alma was out of the picture, Ennis's fears were still stronger than his love, and Jack knew it.

[tpe]

Jachad already been humiliated so often - by his father, by Jimbo, by Lureen and the Newsomes - now it was Ennis doin the same thing to him. The divorce was theoe thing he thought could change everything, but it didn't. so even when Alma was out of the picture, Ennis's fears were still stronger than his love, and Jack knew it.

Yes, I think the divorce incident was a humiliation that came from a very unexpected quarter.  That was why it cut so deep.

[FlwrChild]

Yes, I think the divorce incident was a humiliation that came from a very unexpected quarter.  That was why it cut so deep.

Where do you turn when the person you think is your oasis knocks all your dreams to the dirt?

For Jack, I guess....Mexico. :\'(

[aintfoolin]

I suppose going to Mexico was a form of self-abuse from Jack. He was hurt, humiliated and angry at the lack of Ennis's support for the ideals that inspired Jack to come to him. His hopes were so high after the divorce that he drove all that way, cause he thought Ennis was finally his at last. This shoot-down IMO propelled Jack into a spur-of-the moment downward spiral to Mexico.  And I don't feel it had as much to do with sex as had to do with regaining some sense of real feelng with a human touch.Ennis's suprising disregard must have left him numb. A roll in the hay with a Mexican hustler solved nothing  in the deeper sense but he was "getting back" at Ennis, yet punishing himself in the process for being so vulnerable to Ennis 's control. The "how could I have been so blind" syndrome.

[tpe]

Absolutely! I hadn't given it any thought before but I do think that the events following the divorce revealed certain truths to Jack that he might have been protected from otherwise. He always seemed to tread very carefully with what he said to Ennis and was wise enough not to push the envelope too much after the reunion trip. Perhaps the strain of the long distance, secret relationship and the infrequent meetings would still not have been so heartbreaking for him if he could have held onto the idea that Ennis would be his comletely if not for his responsibilities to his wife and family.

[additional thoughts:]

Jack made the mistake of putting himself in a very vulnerable position, and he lost it. He is quite careful other times not to do this.  I think the only other time was his final decision to go ahead with Randall -- and we know how that ended.
THis is why the divorce scene was so critical: Jack relaxed his guard when he felt he was at the moment of truimph.  He miscalculated, and received the mortal wound that was to kill him years later.  And by that time, there was no Holy Grail, no Parsifal, to save the wounded Amfortas.

[tpe]

I suppose going to Mexico was a form of self-abuse from Jack. He was hurt, humiliated and angry at the lack of Ennis's support for the ideals that inspired Jack to come to him. His hopes were so high after the divorce that he drove all that way, cause he thought Ennis was finally his at last. This shoot-down IMO propelled Jack into a spur-of-the moment downward spiral to Mexico.  And I don't feel it had as much to do with sex as had to do with regaining some sense of real feelng with a human touch.Ennis's suprising disregard must have left him numb. A roll in the hay with a Mexican hustler solved nothing  in the deeper sense but he was "getting back" at Ennis, yet punishing himself in the process for being so vulnerable to Ennis 's control. The "how could I have been so blind" syndrome.

On Jack's face as he entered the alleyway, you can see both doom and determination.  I don't think if came easy for him.  But anger and humiliation has a way of fortifying us -- even if we move in a direction that hurts us deep inside.

[FlwrChild]

On Jack's face as he entered the alleyway, you can see both doom and determination.  I don't think if came easy for him.  But anger and humiliation has a way of fortifying us -- even if we move in a direction that hurts us deep inside.

So true. And so very well said.

[tpe]

In the face of humiliation and hurt, people become reckless.  Jack was no different.  He is like each and everyone of us.

[FlwrChild]

This is why he affects us so strongly.

[tpe]

Yes, the divorce fiasco breaks my heart.

When we surrender a part of ourselves and get rejected, it wounds us in a way that goes beyond physical.  Jack starts to die starting from this scene.

[LuvJackNasty]

Yes, the divorce fiasco breaks my heart.

When we surrender a part of ourselves and get rejected, it wounds us in a way that goes beyond physical.  Jack starts to die starting from this scene.

Great posts- I couldn't agree more- it becomes so multi-layered emotion wise.

[tpe]

Thanks LJN.  I do look at this scene as the starting point when Jack's hope of a sweet life begins to die.

In a way, I do think going to Mexico and doing what he did was meant to act as a sort of balm to staunch the bleeding, if you know what I mean.  It acted as a temporary salve to ease the pain on a mortal wound.  I doubt that Jack realized then that the wound was mortal, but all he could do was to try to forget.  And like getting drunk, immediate and casual gratification of one's desires  is often times used to hide and forget a deeper problem of the heart.

[welshwitch]

There's also the "Well, if he doesn't want me someone else will" aspect, as though Jack is trying to revenge himself on Ennis.

in the mean time, though, being a divorce must have made Ennis stigmatized to some degree in Riverton, I'd have thought, and he makes it worse by deliberately isolating himself and cutting himself off, not just from Jack but from the society he lived in. It's almost as if he's determined to make himself a reject and can't cope with Jack's post-divorce appearance and apparent willingness to change everything.

Ennis reminds me of a hermit crab pulling back into his shell.

[tpe]

There's also the "Well, if he doesn't want me someone else will" aspect, as though Jack is trying to revenge himself on Ennis.

in the mean time, though, being a divorce must have made Ennis stigmatized to some degree in Riverton, I'd have thought, and he makes it worse by deliberately isolating himself and cutting himself off, not just from Jack but from the society he lived in. It's almost as if he's determined to make himself a reject and can't cope with Jack's post-divorce appearance and apparent willingness to change everything.

Ennis reminds me of a hermit crab pulling back into his shell.

So true: there must be an aspect of revenge here: getting back at Ennis.

And as in many forms of love-revenge, we only end up hurting ourselves in the long run.

[aintfoolin]

Putting the peddle to he metal and heading to Mexico was akin to Ennis's wall punching. The helplessness to control his actions to do something rash is human. No, he had no wall to punch, but he did use the means he did have. Armed with a sense of low-self esteem and rejection caused  by humiliation he set out to "fix" Ennis , "breaking" himself in the process. He  is a study in human frailty.  His crying in the truck totally broke my heart. I could've  caused Ennis serious bodily harm in this scene for hurting Jack like this. He had such high hopes.

[tpe]

Putting the peddle to he metal and heading to Mexico was akin to Ennis's wall punching. The helplessness to control his actions to do something rash is human. No, he had no wall to punch, but he did use the means he did have. Armed with a sense of low-self esteem and rejection caused  by humiliation he set out to "fix" Ennis , "breaking" himself in the process. He  is a study in human frailty.  His crying in the truck totally broke my heart. I could've  caused Ennis serious bodily harm in this scene for hurting Jack like this. He had such high hopes.

Perfect correspondence!  I cannot agree more.  I find this beautiful, aintfoolin.  Perfection.  Indeed, it was sheer helplessness in the face of the a love that is stymied.   It is an illustration of human frailty that we can all relate to and empathize with.

[jesseanne21]

This is an interesting question: whether maintaining the status quo would have changed anything.

Interesting to think that Ennis STAYING married to Alma could have alleviated Jack's situation.  Personally, I think it MAY have prolonged Jack's hope. The reason for this is what you have already mentioned: the first trip to Mexico after the misunderstood signals coming from Ennis.  I agree that that was a turning point for Jack.  It was not because of this fiasco per se, but I think after his divorce, Ennis became much more paranoid an cautious.  Had he and Alma maintained a level of indiference to each other and stayed married (as in the case of Jack and Lureen), Ennis would have probably remained more open to the idea of meeting Jack many times dutring the year.  I think that the divorce heightened Ennis's feeling of guilt and shame -- and that affected his dealing with Jack adversely.

Nevertheless, the divorce probably will not change the end.  The main reason is Ennis.  With or without the divorce, Ennis remains a deeply conflicted man wrestling with his own interior demons.  This was bound to have an effect on his relationship with Jack one way or the other. 

I agree with you, TPE.  I think the divorce heightened Ennis' feelings of guilt and shame and then he COULDN'T see his way clear to live with Jack. 

I think, though, that Jack was still willing to accept Ennis' choice and see him whenever he could.  One of the saddest moments for me in the movie (I watched it again last night) was during their last meeting when Jack says to Ennis, "All this time and you still ain't found nobody else to marry?"  I took that to mean, that even if Ennis married again, Jack expected that his relationship with Ennis would remain the same.   

The argument Ennis and Jack had the next morning (their last meeting) was (to me) was more about 'never enough time' together and Ennis making his work more important than his time with Jack.

[tpe]

I agree with you, TPE.  I think the divorce heightened Ennis' feelings of guilt and shame and then he COULDN'T see his way clear to live with Jack. 

I think, though, that Jack was still willing to accept Ennis' choice and see him whenever he could.  One of the saddest moments for me in the movie (I watched it again last night) was during their last meeting when Jack says to Ennis, "All this time and you still ain't found nobody else to marry?"  I took that to mean, that even if Ennis married again, Jack expected that his relationship with Ennis would remain the same.   

The argument Ennis and Jack had the next morning (their last meeting) was (to me) was more about 'never enough time' together and Ennis making his work more important than his time with Jack.

Well said, jesseanne21.  You tie it in with the larger picture of Jack, and this we sometime forget.  Jack tried his best to accommodate anything that would work for him and Ennis.  He compromised so much and for so long.  Even the divorce scene did not destroy this, as painful as it is to him, I'm sure. 

We tend to think sometimes that Jack had unrealistic hopes.  This is certainly not fair.  He was more than reasonable in his expectations.  He wanted things to work out so badly.  And besides, was a wish for a sweet life a foolish thing?  Many of us do this and live it in our lives.

If there is anything else to be said, was can say that Jack was strong.  Yes, he was week in some things, but to survive the mortal blow of the divorce fiasco is to his great credit.  Many of us would have just died or moved on...
He did neither -- a least for more than a decade after...

[LuvJackNasty]

Thanks LJN.  I do look at this scene as the starting point when Jack's hope of a sweet life begins to die.

In a way, I do think going to Mexico and doing what he did was meant to act as a sort of balm to staunch the bleeding, if you know what I mean.   It acted as a temporary salve to ease the pain on a mortal wound.  I doubt that Jack realized then that the wound was mortal, but all he could do was to try to forget.  And like getting drunk, immediate and casual gratification of one's desires  is often times used to hide and forget a deeper problem of the heart.

Putting the peddle to he metal and heading to Mexico was akin to Ennis's wall punching. The helplessness to control his actions to do something rash is human. No, he had no wall to punch, but he did use the means he did have. Armed with a sense of low-self esteem and rejection caused  by humiliation he set out to "fix" Ennis , "breaking" himself in the process. He  is a study in human frailty.  His crying in the truck totally broke my heart. I could've  caused Ennis serious bodily harm in this scene for hurting Jack like this. He had such high hopes.

Aintfoolin' your post brought tears to my eyes.  :\'(

Thomas I know what you mean. I still see Mexico as a means of him taking control- not necessarily a screw you to Ennis but more of a way to be in charge. It breaks my heart even more to think that he had to resort to that to feel "wanted" and know that he wasn't going to be rejected.

[aintfoolin]

Ennis really did'nt leave Jack any direction to go in, but Jack's own fear of loosing him  and the girls being there , IMO contributed to his not just expressing his disappointment in the whole  screwed up situation right then and there.  Yes, he was willing to give up everything for this moment.  I love this  emotional scene for it's excellent acting, but maybe I should skip it in the future because The things I wanted to tell Ennis  are  not good.  He had no resonable excuse for acting like he had no dog in this fight...  could've handled this alot better ,had he been THINKING.  Ennis had options here.  He no longer had the every day distraction of living with Alma, and I agree he became more and more paranoid ..... He tasks me something awful here.
I think I saw a thread  somewhere.about the anger directed at Ennis in this film. Maybe I should go there. thanks.

[FlwrChild]

Ennis really did'nt leave Jack any direction to go in, but Jack's own fear of loosing him  and the girls being there , IMO contributed to his not just expressing his disappointment in the whole  screwed up situation right then and there.  Yes, he was willing to give up everything for this moment.  I love this  emotional scene for it's excellent acting, but maybe I should skip it in the future because The things I wanted to tell Ennis  are  not good.  He had no resonable excuse for acting like he had no dog in this fight...  could've handled this alot better ,had he been THINKING.  Ennis had options here.  He no longer had the every day distraction of living with Alma, and I agree he became more and more paranoid ..... He tasks me something awful here.
I think I saw a thread  somewhere.about the anger directed at Ennis in this film. Maybe I should go there. thanks.

I completely agree. And I've been in a relationship where I kept a lot of things to myself to maintain the balance and not rock the boat. Jack always took his cues from Ennis and acted accordingly. This, combined with his utter heartbreak at finding the situation was not what he thought left him little option but to turn and run. As always (though ironically he never knew it), Ennis held all the cards here.