Topic: what if Ennis never met Jack?

[KitKat]

This has probably been discussed before but my searching came up with a lot of gobble-dy gook.  I'm curious on opinions about what Ennis's life would have been like if he hadn't met Jack and had a relationship with him.  Would he have stayed with Alma, not knowing what true love was like if Alma hadn't filed for divorce?  Would she have even filed for divorce if he didn't have something on the side?  Just thinking out loud.

[NoReins]

Interesting question, KitKat.

If Ennis hadn't met Jack then I think there's every chance that he and Alma would have stayed married for their whole lives. Ennis would likely have taken a job that would have got them out of their financial hole (as opposed to staying in jobs he could quit to go off with Jack) and even if either or both of them realised that what they had wasn't true love, there was certainly affection there in the early days and without Ennis's feelings for Jack or Alma's knowledge of those feelings, their marriage would probably have remained as happy as most, especially given their love for their daughters.

However....I don't believe that Ennis would ever have been truly happy with Alma. Even if you're in the camp that believes that Ennis was "only queer for Jack" then something would still have been missing from his life because the person he was meant to be with wasn't Alma. If, like me, you believe that Ennis was gay but just kept it all buried deep down inside because of what he saw as a child, then that hole inside of him may have got bigger as time passed - I doubt he would ever have actively sought a solution to it, but who knows?

As for Alma, I have no doubt whatsoever that she loved Ennis, even after what she saw in '67. The final straw for her came much later (when she realised that they didn't go up there to fish) so I honestly feel that, with no Jack on the scene, she would have stuck with him.

[welshwitch]

I think they'd have stuck together, both of them knowing there was something missing, because of the children. Once the gilrs  were gone they'd have gone on without there being any great passion or even close connection between them. they'd have been less badly off if Ennis had taken a more regular job and wouldn't have ended up living permanently in rented accommodation perhpas, since Ennis wouldn't have had the same need not to be tied down.

However, I don't think they were ever "in love" in the great Romantic ( capital r) sense - I think it's more that mariage was conventional and expected so that's what they did. And I don't think Ennis would ever have divorced Alma - he'd have stood it because he couldn't fix it, I guess, and they'd have grown old and further apart as time passed. Ennis ould have pushed the memory of Jack and what happened on Brokeback further and further down till it became like a dream or something that happened to someone else.

Or maybe Alma would still have taken the job, met the grocer and divorced Ennis.

I don't think Ennis would have ended up happy whatever happened.

But I'm old and cynical.

[tpe]

Hello kitkat, I am sure this topic had already been discussed earlier, although I must admit that I cannot find the old thread right now.  If any of the moderators happen to find the old one, I hope you don't mind if we merge this with the previous thread.

In any case, I remember distinctly my answer in the old thread: Ennis would have married Alma and would have lived an unhappy unfulfilled life without knowing exactly the reason why.  As I had mentioned in another thread, perhaps his marriage with Alma would not have lasted anyway.

Jack really didn't changes Ennis's personality, no?  To put it in a different way, a person does not make another person turn "gay".  If there were any such leanings or predilections, it would have been inherent in the person's nature, and it would be revealed when subjected to specific circumstances.

Of course, I am aware that the above is not universally accepted by all to be true.  In the absence of definitive proof (such as genetics), their word is as good as mine.

 
 

[KitKat]

NoReins, I agree that Ennis and Alma probably would have married and stayed together.  But, as you say, even if you think that Ennis was only queer for Jack, and Alma wasn't the right person for Ennis, would Ennis have acted on a relationship outside the marriage, looking for that thing that was missing in his life? 

Welshwitch, I like the distinction you make with the "R" Romantic "in love." I don't believe that if Ennis hadn't met Jack, he would have known the difference and would have stuck it out with Alma regardless. 

TPE, if the old thread is found, please merge it with this one.  I agree that Jack didn't change Ennis's personality. He simply brought out an aspect of it that he hadn't acted upon previously.  But, if Ennis hadn't met Jack, would someone else have been able to do the same?  Or just Jack?  I agree a person does not make another person turn gay.  Would Ennis have somehow found a way to find himself in that particular circumstance with someone else? 

[tpe]

TPE, if the old thread is found, please merge it with this one.  I agree that Jack didn't change Ennis's personality. He simply brought out an aspect of it that he hadn't acted upon previously.  But, if Ennis hadn't met Jack, would someone else have been able to do the same?  Or just Jack?  I agree a person does not make another person turn gay.  Would Ennis have somehow found a way to find himself in that particular circumstance with someone else? 

Hello KitKat.  I also asked myself this many times: could there have been another one?

On one hand, it is a possibility.  If it happened with Jack, why shouldn't it happen with someone  else, assuming the circumstances are just right?

On the other hand, some of us believe in fate.  I know I do many times.  And I do believe that an opportunity that is missed once may never come again in one's lifetime. 

It is a complex alignment: to be fated for someone.  The miracle is that a lot of us do find that special one, against great odds.

 

[welshwitch]

I think there are people for whom there is "the one" and only the one. Not everyone, just some people.

Like a key fits the lock.

Sometimes the wrong key will go into a lock but turn it only if forced, or not at all.

Jack was the key and Ennis the lock. There was no other key to Ennis.

[tpe]

I think there are people for whom there is "the one" and only the one. Not everyone, just some people.

Like a key fits the lock.

Sometimes the wrong key will go into a lock but turn it only if forced, or not at all.

Jack was the key and Ennis the lock. There was no other key to Ennis.

Yes, for some people, there can be only one.  It is an opportunity of a lifetime.  It is frightening not to have a second chance.

[welshwitch]

So I think that Ennis would have lived a life in which his deepest emotions were never stirred - and he might have gone along not being happy exactly but not knowing why he wasn't either, and probably not expecting to be. Ennis wasn't the type to expect the coup de foudre to strike - he had pretty limited experience of happiness and love, and very limited experience of life.

[lamusica]

I like the term "sleepwalking through life".  I think that's what Ennis would have done without meeting Jack.  Like Thomas says, if the circumstances and people weren't exactly right, Ennis would not have found love.  He would never have known what he missed -- just shuffled through life half-alive.

[NoReins]

I like the term "sleepwalking through life".  I think that's what Ennis would have done without meeting Jack.  Like Thomas says, if the circumstances and people weren't exactly right, Ennis would not have found love.  He would never have known what he missed -- just shuffled through life half-alive.

If that's true (and I think it probably is) then maybe it's the antidote to the pain of Jack's death.

Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all

[tpe]

If that's true (and I think it probably is) then maybe it's the antidote to the pain of Jack's death.

Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all

Yes.  I think that in the end, his love was the central thing that kept him alive.  I think that even with the knowledge of what was to come, Ennis would never have repudiated his love.

[KitKat]

I think there are people for whom there is "the one" and only the one. Not everyone, just some people.

Like a key fits the lock.

Sometimes the wrong key will go into a lock but turn it only if forced, or not at all.

Jack was the key and Ennis the lock. There was no other key to Ennis.

So the general consensus would be that Ennis probably would not have a relationship with another man -- just Jack?  I don't think he would have actively sought out another man, but would he have not been attracted to another man, if an opportunity presented itself?  I suppose that would be under the Is Ennis Gay? discussion then.  On the one hand, if Ennis hadn't met Jack, he would not have known what it was like to be with a man and be in love in every sense of the word.  But what if he met Harry or Bill or Ted and had circumstance present itself? Would he have rejected Harry/Bill/Ted because he was married? Would he have rejected them because they were not Jack? Because he was "only queer for Jack"?  All of the above?

Sorry, my head has too many questions and scenarios floating around sometimes.  I hope I made some kind of sense.

[tpe]

So the general consensus would be that Ennis probably would not have a relationship with another man -- just Jack?  I don't think he would have actively sought out another man, but would he have not been attracted to another man, if an opportunity presented itself?  I suppose that would be under the Is Ennis Gay? discussion then.  On the one hand, if Ennis hadn't met Jack, he would not have known what it was like to be with a man and be in love in every sense of the word.  But what if he met Harry or Bill or Ted and had circumstance present itself? Would he have rejected Harry/Bill/Ted because he was married? Would he have rejected them because they were not Jack? Because he was "only queer for Jack"?  All of the above?

Sorry, my head has too many questions and scenarios floating around sometimes.  I hope I made some kind of sense.

It is hard to say if someone else would have succeeded in opening Ennis's heart the way Jack did.  It depends on circumstances.  If he found the same qualities in another man, then it would be logical to assume that he would have been attracted.  The question is: would the opportunity ever again arise with such an individual...

[welshwitch]

Depends whether you believe, in true romantic fashion, that there is just one - in that case Ennis has found the only one for him and wouldn't look at anyone else - or that there's more than one, in which case I suppose hypothetically given someone else who affected him as Jack did and the opportunity he might have become involved with this hypothetical man.

I'm just playing with words here - I don't believe a word of that after the second hyphen.

[lamusica]

Since nothing in the SS or film shows that Ennis was looking at men before he came upon Jack ( no pun intended!), I don't think Ennis would have gone looking for another man at any point in his life.  Had someone come along in circumstances similar to BBM, maybe, but I don't think Ennis had any idea of looking for a man.  Again, it goes back to just the right time with just the right man at just the right place -- what he found with Jack.

[tpe]

It would be hard to think of another opportunity (similar to the one that presented itself in 63) after Ennis was married to Alma... 

[lamusica]

Well, stretching the point, he might have run into another ranch-hand who may have come on to him and, given the right time and location, he might have sampled what the guy was offering.  He might have even fallen in love with the guy.  I know it's highly unlikely, but who would have thought that Ennis would fall for Jack?  Certainly no one who knew Ennis.  It's fate.

[FlwrChild]

Being the romantic that I am, I of course believe they were 'meant to be'.

But from a more practical standpoint, I'm not sure an opportunty like the summer of '63 would have presented itself to Ennis. It was a fairly unique set of circumstances. They were alone together on a secluded mountain for an extended period of time. They became friends, and were both just barely adults who had already seen a fair amount of hardship and loneliness in their lives, which made them kindred spirits in a way. There was, for Ennis especially, the safety of their setting. And of course, youth is a factor that can't be ignored. Newly experienced passion is exciting in a way that is different when you're young and just beginning to 'live' life.  And once he had hunkered down to shoulder the responsibilities of a family, Ennis would probably be much less likely to rock the boat. And his innate fears and self-criticisms would probably have nipped most opportunities in the bud. So whether he was attracted to other men over the years or not, I could see him living out his life without ever pursuing anything with any of them.

So I guess that means I agree with everyone else. Most likely Ennis would have stayed with Alma for as long as she stayed with him. And never be truly fulfilled or happy. And quite possibly never know why.

[tpe]

Thanks FlwrChild and lamusica.

lamusica, you do have a point, but it wouldn't be the same as in 63, when Ennis was stuck with Jack for months up in the mountains.  But, yes, anything is possible when love is concerned. 

FlwrChild , indeed, youth and the reassuring mountain setting had a lot to do with Ennis and jack discovering their love for each other.  The time and place is part of the magic in many a story about love lost and love found.

[welshwitch]

There's a kind of magical other-worldness about the period on the mountain, when Ennis at least is someone other than the person he is at ground level. And afterwards that's where they go back and try to relive those first months together, a not uncommon attempt but a doomed one in the end.

I have a sense that Jack is more himself up on Brokeback than elsewhere and most of the rest of the time knows it, whereas Ennis never quite acknowledges that what he was like there is a part of him whether he likes it or not.

[jacks_key]

I think there are people for whom there is "the one" and only the one. Not everyone, just some people.

Like a key fits the lock.

Sometimes the wrong key will go into a lock but turn it only if forced, or not at all.

Jack was the key and Ennis the lock. There was no other key to Ennis.

I completely agree.  That was part of the reason I chose the screen name I did.