Topic: Oprah's question: "Did Lureen know?"

[welshwitch]

I feel a lot of sympathy for her - she had an overbearing father, an unassertive mother, a kid who turned out to have problems and a husband who was in love with not just someone else but another man. In addition she had all the aggro between her husband and her father. She'd evidently been brought up in a money-oriented family so it's not surprising she turned her attention to running the business - what else could she do?

And she met Jack in an environment where he ( briefly) shone, and he was new and different and gorgeous ( though that's Jake not Jack). I bet her father wanted her to marry and would probably have liked her to marry the son of some good-old-boy friend of his. Jack must have looked a better prospect.

She did talk to Ennis, and she did have to keep it together while she was lying her socks off and at the same time realising exactly who Ennis was and what he'd been to Jack.

[mrskutz]

Ok,  after just reading the full thread, and going with my gut....

Laureen knew, and I believe she even SUSPECTED when he was searching for his parka,hence, the questioning....and his answers too were not to convincing.

I think she She did put the final pieces together during the phone call.

She became "cold as snow" and filled up with tears, because she was talking to this "very important man" in Jack life for the FIRST TIME EVER, and she had to deliver her rote speech about his death.

Now, did Laureen actually know he was beaten to death? and if he was, why?  I'm not so sure.  I'm still trying to piece that together.

But I believe she suspected he was homoexual, and she was  actually talking to "his other love."

[gimmejack]

Lets not forget the conversation at the dinner table when Lureen questions why husbands don't ever want to dance with their wives...she sarcastically questions..."Why do you think that is Jack?"  SHE KNEW

[rane99]

Oh, she knew!!  She was a smart cookie.  The tone in her voice said it all

[welshwitch]

The more I watch the thing, the more it seems to me that long before Jack's death she must have "known" inwardly but not said anything/acknowledged what she knew, because it was unspecific. Once she hears what Ennis says during the phone-call, it all falls into place. She must also have noticed other things too - if Jack was involved with Randall for some time, that would have been hard to hide since Randall lived and worked near.She never met ennis, so in a sense he was unreal to her and could be ignored to a degree, as we all ignore uncomforable things if we can.

[Patriot1]

The more I watch the thing, the more it seems to me that long before Jack's death she must have "known" inwardly but not said anything/acknowledged what she knew, because it was unspecific.

What in the movie, Welshwitch, gave you the impression Lureen knew about Jack and Ennis? I can only remember 4 times we see Lureen after she and Jack get married.

One is when the two men were in her office calling Jack a pissant and Lureen doesn't even defend Jack. She never even said, hey fellas. That is my husband your are talking about. She just goes back to work.

Another is at Thanksgiving when she sits there and giggles to herself because Jack just told her old man off.

Another is when Jack is in her office looking for his blue parker and they "kiss." She didn't seem concerned Jack and Ennis were getting together as much as she seemed "concerned" that it was always Jack driving 28 hours round trip.

And the only other time I remember her is at the dance when Jack asked another man's wife to dance instead of her.

To me, none of those scenes showed she knew or even suspected. Was there something else I might have missed?

[NoReins]

I don't think there's anything obvious in the movie that suggests that Lureen knew. We know from some of the things that Jack says that their marriage isn't full and happy any more (if it really ever was) but the only time we see Lureen as anything less than content with Jack is at the dance when she says "husbands don't never seem to want to dance with their wives"....despite the fact that there are many husbands and wives up dancing. She obviously means only that Jack never wants to dance with her....and maybe that is some hint that she knows that something isn't "normal" about their relationship?

Having said all that, though, I do firmly believe that she knew, or at least strongly suspected, that Jack and Ennis were more than friends - and all the things that Ennis says during the phone call just fill in the gaps for her, letting her know where they met, how long their relationship lasted etc.

[KillRoy1972]

She knew...

I believe Jack told her himself when he came back from BBM and after that left her with that other man. to start that new ranch.

She knew he was gay on the phone with Ennis.

It was probably a very heated up fight between Lureen and Jack, and he probably said something like 'all those times I went fishing and hunting, We did not fish or hunt, but got drunk and had sex'

When Ennis tells her about BBM and that they were herding sheep back in '63, she is hurt. At that point she hears from Ennis Jack knew he was gay, even before he maried her. She is confronted with the reality her marriage was fake.

When Ennis says 'I sure am sorry, we was good friends' her expression is priceless.

After that she gets bitter... I feel at this point she does not want anything to do anymore with jack, Ennis, their homosexuality or even Jacks parrents. And that is why she tells Ennis to go to Jack parrents with the famous 'about the ashes I mean' line...

Now, I also believe Lureen knows about the killing of Jack. I believe she is behind the killing in some way.

But I'm pretty radical about that i guess

[Patriot1]

Having said all that, though, I do firmly believe that she knew, or at least strongly suspected, that Jack and Ennis were more than friends - and all the things that Ennis says during the phone call just fill in the gaps for her, letting her know where they met, how long their relationship lasted etc.

Well NoReins.....there has to be something in the movie that makes you believe she suspected.  I mean, we just can't makes things up.  By the time Ennis called her she knew about Jack and after talking to Ennis she knew a whole lot more. But I just don't see any indication at all she suspected during their marriage.

[NoReins]

Having said all that, though, I do firmly believe that she knew, or at least strongly suspected, that Jack and Ennis were more than friends - and all the things that Ennis says during the phone call just fill in the gaps for her, letting her know where they met, how long their relationship lasted etc.

Well NoReins.....there has to be something in the movie that makes you believe she suspected.  I mean, we just can't makes things up.  By the time Ennis called her she knew about Jack and after talking to Ennis she knew a whole lot more. But I just don't see any indication at all she suspected during their marriage.

I think maybe I didn't express myself very well. I think you're right that she knew about Jack, and she knew he went off on "fishing trips" with Ennis so I guess I just thought she may have suspected something because of that. It's not something that's shown - it's just a feeling.

One other thing that may be a slight hint - but may be more because Anne Hathaway believed that Lureen knew - is the way she says "You're the fishin' buddy or the huntin' buddy - I know that". I guess to me it sounds a little like there's a kind of hidden "but I know Jack didn't fish or hunt" at the end of it - but, like I say, that could be Anne Hathaway's take on Lureen shining through.

Ach, ahdunno

[CrimsonSky]

The more I watch the thing, the more it seems to me that long before Jack's death she must have "known" inwardly but not said anything/acknowledged what she knew, because it was unspecific.

What in the movie, Welshwitch, gave you the impression Lureen knew about Jack and Ennis? I can only remember 4 times we see Lureen after she and Jack get married.

One is when the two men were in her office calling Jack a pissant and Lureen doesn't even defend Jack. She never even said, hey fellas. That is my husband your are talking about. She just goes back to work.

Another is at Thanksgiving when she sits there and giggles to herself because Jack just told her old man off.

Another is when Jack is in her office looking for his blue parker and they "kiss." She didn't seem concerned Jack and Ennis were getting together as much as she seemed "concerned" that it was always Jack driving 28 hours round trip.

And the only other time I remember her is at the dance when Jack asked another man's wife to dance instead of her.

To me, none of those scenes showed she knew or even suspected. Was there something else I might have missed?

Obviously I can't speak for welshwitch, but personally I think that all those scenes you mention feature little hints that together, over the years, would have made Lureen at least suspect, if not know for sure.

The scene in the office, unless I've totally misinterpreted it, the two guys were implying that Jack was gay, with the comments about how he used to try, to ride the bulls. It always makes me think of the scene with Jimbo, where he says something similar, and also the line from the Motel scene in the ss, about Jack "riding more than just bulls". Like I said, it may just be that something's got "lost in translation", but I thought "riding the bulls" was an euphemism for having sex, or at least trying to, with men

The Thanksgiving scene, when LD says about Bobby growing up to be a man, he obviously doesn't think Jack is a "real" man,and is implying he's gay, and however much Lureen enjoyed seeing Jack stand up to LD, she must have wondered if there was some truth in what LD was saying.

The blue parka scene, I think Lureen is fishing (If you'll excuse the pun :-[ ) for information about Ennis, asking why he can't come to Texas and fish,she wants to know what's so special about this guy that Jack's prepared to drive all that way just to sit around fishing, when they could presumably do that anywhere there's a river When she says about the new tractor coming in that week, it reminds me of Alma warning Ennis he could get fired for taking off with Jack after the Motel scene, trying to keep him home by reminding him of his responsibilities.Of course there's a difference, in that Alma knew what the fishing trip was really about, so I suppose it could just be that Lureen was annoyed form a business point of view, but I get the feeling there was more to it than that, I don't know what exactly, female intuition, maybe?

I think if you add all that up, and add the fact that the physical side of their relationship was practically non-existent by the time they meet Randall and LaShawn (I'm guessing that was the case from the reunion onwards), and the fact that Lureen had to make all the moves when she first met Jack, I can't see how she could have not suspected. I don't think she realised untuil the phone call, just how strong the bond between Ennis and Jack was,but I definitely think she already knew that Jack was gay, and that his "fishing buddy" was more than just  that.   

[welshwitch]

I'd go along with what CrimsonSky says - Jack and Lureen have to have been married for something like seventeen years, and evenin the moive, where we don;t see much of them together, there are various hints - there must have been others that we don't see, since the movie doesn't focus on their story. And I can't imagine living in the same house as someone and not having some idea about them, specially when other people made odd comments. Randall has only just met Jack but he has no problem picking up the vibes; others could easily have done the same.

[Patriot1]

The more I watch the thing, the more it seems to me that long before Jack's death she must have "known" inwardly but not said anything/acknowledged what she knew, because it was unspecific.

What in the movie, Welshwitch, gave you the impression Lureen knew about Jack and Ennis? I can only remember 4 times we see Lureen after she and Jack get married.

One is when the two men were in her office calling Jack a pissant and Lureen doesn't even defend Jack. She never even said, hey fellas. That is my husband your are talking about. She just goes back to work.

Another is at Thanksgiving when she sits there and giggles to herself because Jack just told her old man off.

Another is when Jack is in her office looking for his blue parker and they "kiss." She didn't seem concerned Jack and Ennis were getting together as much as she seemed "concerned" that it was always Jack driving 28 hours round trip.

And the only other time I remember her is at the dance when Jack asked another man's wife to dance instead of her.

To me, none of those scenes showed she knew or even suspected. Was there something else I might have missed?

Obviously I can't speak for welshwitch, but personally I think that all those scenes you mention feature little hints that together, over the years, would have made Lureen at least suspect, if not know for sure.

The scene in the office, unless I've totally misinterpreted it, the two guys were implying that Jack was gay, with the comments about how he used to try, to ride the bulls. It always makes me think of the scene with Jimbo, where he says something similar, and also the line from the Motel scene in the ss, about Jack "riding more than just bulls". Like I said, it may just be that something's got "lost in translation", but I thought "riding the bulls" was an euphemism for having sex, or at least trying to, with men

The Thanksgiving scene, when LD says about Bobby growing up to be a man, he obviously doesn't think Jack is a "real" man,and is implying he's gay, and however much Lureen enjoyed seeing Jack stand up to LD, she must have wondered if there was some truth in what LD was saying.

The blue parka scene, I think Lureen is fishing (If you'll excuse the pun :-[ ) for information about Ennis, asking why he can't come to Texas and fish,she wants to know what's so special about this guy that Jack's prepared to drive all that way just to sit around fishing, when they could presumably do that anywhere there's a river When she says about the new tractor coming in that week, it reminds me of Alma warning Ennis he could get fired for taking off with Jack after the Motel scene, trying to keep him home by reminding him of his responsibilities.Of course there's a difference, in that Alma knew what the fishing trip was really about, so I suppose it could just be that Lureen was annoyed form a business point of view, but I get the feeling there was more to it than that, I don't know what exactly, female intuition, maybe?

I think if you add all that up, and add the fact that the physical side of their relationship was practically non-existent by the time they meet Randall and LaShawn (I'm guessing that was the case from the reunion onwards), and the fact that Lureen had to make all the moves when she first met Jack, I can't see how she could have not suspected. I don't think she realised untuil the phone call, just how strong the bond between Ennis and Jack was,but I definitely think she already knew that Jack was gay, and that his "fishing buddy" was more than just  that.   

CrimsonSky, you brought up some points that made me think. So, I went to the movie and watch the 4 scenes again, 4 or 5 times. Except for one of them, I still can not see anything in the movie that indicated Lureen suspected. Lets start with the two men in her office.

One says, Ain't that the guy who use to ride the bulls. The other says, he use to try.  Ok, so he wasn't very good at bull riding. But he did win a buckle and we did see him win the day he met Lureen. Even Jack sort of admitted he wasn't very good when he told Ennis the Army wouldn't take him because he was too busted up.  But were the two men suggesting Jack was queer?

I don't suppose people outside of the US get to see much of rodeos but it takes a fearless man to ride the bulls and broncos. Even if you are gay you got to be a man to get onto the back of 1500 to 2000 pounds of bucking beef; beef that can stomp on your head in a second. More than a few men die every year riding the bulls. These two men know that. And the fact is many men try and fail at riding. So were they trying to suggest Jack was gay?  I just can't see it.  Even in my prime you couldn't get me to sit on the back of a bull in a tiedown pen and I was a pretty adventurous person. I admire rodeo riders. And some of them are pretty good looking hunks. Oops, 

What disturbs me most about this scene is Lureen.  It was obvious the two men didn't come from or around Childress or they would have known Lureen and Jack were married. Perhaps that is why they made their remarks in front of Lureen. But Lureen never tried to stick up for her husband. She was already at the stage where she didn't care about him. All she had to say was three words; that is my husband, and she would have humiliated them. Instead, she just goes back to her work.

Now, as for the two men using "riding the bulls" as a euphemism for having sex with men.  That is a very good point. But, Jack must have been a little whore approaching every man he met in order to have gotten that reputation.  And what about Lureen? In 1960's  and 70's Texas I don't think homosexuality was talked about very much and definately not in front of a young woman. Would she have understood the euphemism if she heard it?

The Thanksgiving scene; L.D. sure was referring to Jack when he made his "grow up to be a man" remark. But Jack proved he was a man by standing up to the old Stud Duck and telling him he would kick his ass into next week if he didn't shut up and sit down. What did the old Stud Duck do, he shut up, tucked his tail between his legs and sat down like a little boy who had just had his ears boxed by his father. I think we saw who the man was there.

And for you ladies who think watching football makes a man out of you. I am here to tell you that watching big calves, big thighs and big arms on men wearing skin tight pants is a little faggots dream......an old faggots dream also.   

The blue parka; well, I don't think Lureen cared that Jack and Ennis were going to be together as much as she was concerned it was always Jack paying the cost of going up there. I think she was trying to squeeze another zero out of the numbers. I mean look, it was ok if Ennis came down there and they went fishing.

Back in the 70's there was a shortage of gasoline and it was expensive. Could it be that is all Lureen was concerned about?

But you know, there is something else that makes no sense about Lureen complaining about it always being Jack to go to Wyoming. Lureen knew Jack would visit his family while up there. How could he visit his family with Ennis coming down to Texas? No, had to be that extra zero she was trying to find.

My word! The things you can think of that are so  . Why did Jack never bring his family up to see his parents?  I would think that would be one of the first things he would do. Here pop, I am a man and here is my family. And I make a good living and they live in luxury compared to you, you old son of a ......  Maybe he loved his father too much to do that to him. Hell, Jack could even have brought his family and a ton of groceries up to visit his parents while he and Ennis went fishing.

Ok, ok back on topic.

There is only one scene left CrimsonSky, and I just might give you a point here.

It seems to be a big deal that men don't want to dance with their wives, or Jack doesn't want to dance with Lureen. Lureen could have noticed that Jack and Randall were engaged in an awful lot of eye contact and smiles. Suppose Lureen's question, "Why do you think men don't want to dance with their wives." the word dance was a euphemism for have sex with. Could Lureen have suspected something watching these two men eyeballing each other all night and smiling? Possibly.

Or, was Lureen just trying to save face in front of these other people and trying to get Jack to dance with her to make the others think their marriage was normal? Either way, Jack sure put her down by asking Chatty Kathy to dance instead of her. The ultimate putdown in front of strangers.

But because of the possible euphemism and that euphemism coming from Lureen herself, I am going to give you a point there CrimsonSky. But, if she did suspect at this point, and it is a big if, this is the first point at which she suspected.

OMG, and if she did suspect, and it was with Randall who lived in Texas, could this reopen the "Did Lureen have Jack killed" thread? Imagine, Jack taking of a week or two with Randall AND Ennis, plus weekends with Randall. What was left for Lureen?

There is only one thing more that you mentioned that I would like to comment on. The back seat of the car.
Jack saw an opportunity to marry into a wealthy family and to be comfortable himself.  Lureen saw a man her father wouldn't approve of and to get back at him did what she could to get pregnant knowing her father would make Jack marry her which would have been a double blow to him.

Of course, she could have already heard the rumors about Jack and this would have been yet another thorn into her father's side. But, I am convinced she WANTED to get pregnant in the back seat of that car. For, whatever reasons.

[CrimsonSky]

CrimsonSky, you brought up some points that made me think. So, I went to the movie and watch the 4 scenes again, 4 or 5 times. Except for one of them, I still can not see anything in the movie that indicated Lureen suspected. Lets start with the two men in her office.

One says, Ain't that the guy who use to ride the bulls. The other says, he use to try.  Ok, so he wasn't very good at bull riding. But he did win a buckle and we did see him win the day he met Lureen. Even Jack sort of admitted he wasn't very good when he told Ennis the Army wouldn't take him because he was too busted up.  But were the two men suggesting Jack was queer?

I don't suppose people outside of the US get to see much of rodeos but it takes a fearless man to ride the bulls and broncos. Even if you are gay you got to be a man to get onto the back of 1500 to 2000 pounds of bucking beef; beef that can stomp on your head in a second. More than a few men die every year riding the bulls. These two men know that. And the fact is many men try and fail at riding. So were they trying to suggest Jack was gay?  I just can't see it.  Even in my prime you couldn't get me to sit on the back of a bull in a tiedown pen and I was a pretty adventurous person. I admire rodeo riders. And some of them are pretty good looking hunks. Oops, 

What disturbs me most about this scene is Lureen.  It was obvious the two men didn't come from or around Childress or they would have known Lureen and Jack were married. Perhaps that is why they made their remarks in front of Lureen. But Lureen never tried to stick up for her husband. She was already at the stage where she didn't care about him. All she had to say was three words; that is my husband, and she would have humiliated them. Instead, she just goes back to her work.

Now, as for the two men using "riding the bulls" as a euphemism for having sex with men.  That is a very good point. But, Jack must have been a little whore approaching every man he met in order to have gotten that reputation.  And what about Lureen? In 1960's  and 70's Texas I don't think homosexuality was talked about very much and definately not in front of a young woman. Would she have understood the euphemism if she heard it?

The Thanksgiving scene; L.D. sure was referring to Jack when he made his "grow up to be a man" remark. But Jack proved he was a man by standing up to the old Stud Duck and telling him he would kick his ass into next week if he didn't shut up and sit down. What did the old Stud Duck do, he shut up, tucked his tail between his legs and sat down like a little boy who had just had his ears boxed by his father. I think we saw who the man was there.

And for you ladies who think watching football makes a man out of you. I am here to tell you that watching big calves, big thighs and big arms on men wearing skin tight pants is a little faggots dream......an old faggots dream also.   

The blue parka; well, I don't think Lureen cared that Jack and Ennis were going to be together as much as she was concerned it was always Jack paying the cost of going up there. I think she was trying to squeeze another zero out of the numbers. I mean look, it was ok if Ennis came down there and they went fishing.

Back in the 70's there was a shortage of gasoline and it was expensive. Could it be that is all Lureen was concerned about?

But you know, there is something else that makes no sense about Lureen complaining about it always being Jack to go to Wyoming. Lureen knew Jack would visit his family while up there. How could he visit his family with Ennis coming down to Texas? No, had to be that extra zero she was trying to find.

My word! The things you can think of that are so  . Why did Jack never bring his family up to see his parents?  I would think that would be one of the first things he would do. Here pop, I am a man and here is my family. And I make a good living and they live in luxury compared to you, you old son of a ......  Maybe he loved his father too much to do that to him. Hell, Jack could even have brought his family and a ton of groceries up to visit his parents while he and Ennis went fishing.

Ok, ok back on topic.

There is only one scene left CrimsonSky, and I just might give you a point here.

It seems to be a big deal that men don't want to dance with their wives, or Jack doesn't want to dance with Lureen. Lureen could have noticed that Jack and Randall were engaged in an awful lot of eye contact and smiles. Suppose Lureen's question, "Why do you think men don't want to dance with their wives." the word dance was a euphemism for have sex with. Could Lureen have suspected something watching these two men eyeballing each other all night and smiling? Possibly.

Or, was Lureen just trying to save face in front of these other people and trying to get Jack to dance with her to make the others think their marriage was normal? Either way, Jack sure put her down by asking Chatty Kathy to dance instead of her. The ultimate putdown in front of strangers.

But because of the possible euphemism and that euphemism coming from Lureen herself, I am going to give you a point there CrimsonSky. But, if she did suspect at this point, and it is a big if, this is the first point at which she suspected.

OMG, and if she did suspect, and it was with Randall who lived in Texas, could this reopen the "Did Lureen have Jack killed" thread? Imagine, Jack taking of a week or two with Randall AND Ennis, plus weekends with Randall. What was left for Lureen?

There is only one thing more that you mentioned that I would like to comment on. The back seat of the car.
Jack saw an opportunity to marry into a wealthy family and to be comfortable himself.  Lureen saw a man her father wouldn't approve of and to get back at him did what she could to get pregnant knowing her father would make Jack marry her which would have been a double blow to him.

Of course, she could have already heard the rumors about Jack and this would have been yet another thorn into her father's side. But, I am convinced she WANTED to get pregnant in the back seat of that car. For, whatever reasons.

Hi Patriot1 I read your post, then watched the scenes again, and although I have to say I can't see any reason why your interpretations wouldn't be correct, I also can't see anything that categorically proves that mine are incorrect either, then again, there is no "right" or "wrong" of interpretating anything in the movie, I'm happy to agree to disagree with you,and accept we all see things differently

There is one thing I want to clarify though, I'll be the first to admit that what I know about rodeo-ing you could write on the back of a postage stamp, but I do realise bull-riding takes a lot of guts. I wasn't suggesting for one second that being gay makes someone any less of a man (I wouldn't fancy the pants off Jack if that was the case ), what I meant was that to people like the guys in the office, or LD,if someone is gay, that automatically over-rides everything else, they can't see past that, and that person becomes a lesser being in their eyes, it doesn't matter how many bulls a bloke can ride, or how many ignorant a**holes he can order to sit down,
Something else that I thought about is, how come the guys recognised Jack anyway? They must have both seen countless bull-riders over the years, and Jack hadn't been rodeoing for a few years by then, so what was it about him that made him so memorable (I'm guessing that for the two guys it wasn't his charm and good looks ) Maybe Jack didn't approach every man in the country, but I don't think Jimbo was a one-off either, and regardless of the numbers, Jack wasn't exactly discreet, what with the barman witnessing the whole thing, then Jimbo telling his friends, I can see how there could have been rumours about Jack.(and maybe, if the guys in the office had heard rumours about Jack, they might have also mentinoned it in front of LD, not realising he was Jack's father-in-law, and that's what put the idea in LD's head?).  Anyway, that's just my gut feeling, from my first viewing, every time the guy says "he used to try", the image that springs to my mind isn't Jack falling off the bull, it's Jack getting knocked back by Jimbo
 Maybe Lureen doesn't react because she's too busy thinking about what they've said and what it means about Jack, to me it looks like she's thinking "does he mean what I think he means?" ie that Jack could be gay, but then she decides to ignore it, and carry on with what she's doing. I take your point about homosexuality not being talked about in those days, but surely most people would at least be aware that it existed, if only cause the Bible says it's a sin   In any case, there's obviously something wrong with the marriage, as she doesn't stick up for Jack. Maybe she's feeling bitter and resentful that Jack's become emotionally and physically distant from her, and she just thinks "why should I act like a proper wife, when he doesn't act like a proper husband?", or maybe it was just that the two guys were important big-money clients and she didn't want to antagonise them and maybe lose money for the business... There as many interpretations as there are viewers, I guess, and that's one of the things I love about this film

Oh, and as for Lureen's reasons for wanting to get pregnant, my guess is biology! What woman in her right mind wouldn't want Jack to father her children?!      

[welshwitch]

It also occurs to me thay Jack, when he originally arrived in Texas, was an outsider - we hear the announcer at the rodeo say "From all the way up in Lightning flat, Wyoming. He may not be a totally successful bull-rider, but he wins at least once in front of the Childress crwod then he gets the ( according to him) prettiest girl in childress, and one who's father is known to be well off. There might be an element of  jealousy in all this - Jack may have been talked about as this cheeky so-and-so who came from God knows where and walked off with the local rich girl. Even if Lureenknew or suspected about Jack, there's nothing to say that she would have passed it on - would she have told LD?? And if he heard gossip or suspected something, more likely surely that he'd keep it to himself till he could get his redneck buddies involved, maybe - why would he talk about it to Lureen?

[proulxfan]

Crimson Sky,

It's nice to see another member here comfirm my recently acquired interpretation of the line: '"Didn't that pissant used to ride the bulls?"  "He used to try."' It seemed to me a way the screenwriters used to get the reference to Jack's "riding more than bulls" into the film without access to a narrator to make that comment. And the spin the second man puts on the word "try" does make me think immediately of Jimbo's brushoff. I think these scenes are meant to suggest that Jack is more open about his sexuality than Ennis and that this created danger for him in his rural Texas environment, where gossip would be bound to follow him.
 As to what Lureen knew and when she knew it, I believe she had to have had suspicions about Jack, for the reasons mentioned above, early on, but that Ennis's revelation about his summer on Brokeback with Jack may have finally confirmed it for her. Certainly it drove home the point that Jack's meetings with Ennis were more than flings. One generally asks to have one's ashes spread in a place that has maximum emotional significance, and she confirms Jack says it's his favorite place. Now she knows that drinking was not the source of its importance for Jack. Ennis was.

[aintfoolin]

Did she know? Let's see she's married to the guy for almost 20 years, He goes off on "fishing trips" with some guy every year 2 or 3 times a year. Guy NEVER comes to Texas to meet the fam. The fact that these trips are'nt shared with anyone else,just the one guy for 20 years?  She finds out from Ennis that BB mountain is a real place where he and Jack spent a summer together.      I think Lureen was a smart enough woman to put the pieces of this puzzle together especially after the phone call from Ennis after Jack's death. I think she knew As always,IMHO.

[welshwitch]

It hadn't occurred to me before,aintfoolin, but of course going off with the same guy "fishing" several times a year would e an odd thiong to do if you never fished alone or with others, or even at all, the rest of the time. It must have been pretty obvious to Lureen for a long time that the friend Jack met while fishing was someone pretty special/important to Jack.

[erica loves jack]

i think she knew.

i dont think jack was the kind of person who could keep such a meaningful and important fact about who he was a secret forever... especially to the woman he was married to, in love or not. he would seem like the type of guy who would keep it inside for an amount of time but then he just wouldnt be able to live the lie anymore and not 'own up' to the fact that he loved another man so deeply. i mean, ennis was such a huge part of jack's heart, i just cant emagine jack keeping it inside for all that time. after all, he was the emotionally open one of the two. i dont know, i just dont think he could live without letting her know the thruth of his love for ennis... even if he just told her the basics, atleast he'd feel like he could live his life a little more truly and openly. it had to be killing him inside. i just cant emagine the pain. i'm sure he tried to drink himself to sleep night after night, trying to escape the lingering thoughts of how deeply he cared for and was hurt by ennis.

[tpe]

i think she knew.

i dont think jack was the kind of person who could keep such a meaningful and important fact about who he was a secret forever... especially to the woman he was married to, in love or not. he would seem like the type of guy who would keep it inside for an amount of time but then he just wouldnt be able to live the lie anymore and not 'own up' to the fact that he loved another man so deeply. i mean, ennis was such a huge part of jack's heart, i just cant emagine jack keeping it inside for all that time. after all, he was the emotionally open one of the two. i dont know, i just dont think he could live without letting her know the thruth of his love for ennis... even if he just told her the basics, atleast he'd feel like he could live his life a little more truly and openly. it had to be killing him inside. i just cant emagine the pain. i'm sure he tried to drink himself to sleep night after night, trying to escape the lingering thoughts of how deeply he cared for and was hurt by ennis.

Hello erica loves jack.  So do you think that Jack was totally wrong about their marriage being "normal and all"?  I find this fascinating.  Could he have been hiding the truth from Ennis, or did he really believe that this is so?

So hard to read Jack in may of the scenes.  He can be quite mysterious too.

[erica loves jack]

i think he and lureen had as normal of a relationship as they could, with jack being gay and all. i mean, you can see in the thanksgiving scene, he is a husband and father. but then again, like jack told ennis later on, they could have their relationship over the phone. so obviously they were husband and wife and cared for their son and lived together, but they didnt love each other and show affection. it seemed like they were a routine kind of couple. they were married but lived their own lives kind of. jack put himself in a heck of a sucky situation. it's very very sad.

.....and then i think of what it would have been like if he and ennis had gotten their own cow and calf operation... how different their lives would be.


tpe, when you say 'Could he have been hiding the truth from Ennis, or did he really believe that this is so?' what do you mean??

[greenfrog]

Did she know? Let's see she's married to the guy for almost 20 years, He goes off on "fishing trips" with some guy every year 2 or 3 times a year. Guy NEVER comes to Texas to meet the fam. The fact that these trips are'nt shared with anyone else,just the one guy for 20 years?  She finds out from Ennis that BB mountain is a real place where he and Jack spent a summer together.      I think Lureen was a smart enough woman to put the pieces of this puzzle together especially after the phone call from Ennis after Jack's death. I think she knew As always,IMHO.

Great post aintfoolin.  My theory as to whether or not Lureen knew is . . .

If I can't see it it's not happening.

I think deep down she knew, but didn't want to believe it and /or she wouldn't believe it unless she could see it with her own two eyes.

I hope that made sense.

[welshwitch]

I agree. there are things that it's difficult to face, specially if you have no idea how to deal with them. i think Lureen just didn't ask herself any awkward questions. Jack and she were in effect business partners, hence Jack's comment about the marriage that they could do over the phone, and as long as what he did was kept well away from her I think she chose not to look too deeply into it.

[tpe]

I was inspired by some comments made by MG over at the Randall thread.

I have gradually come to suspect that Lureen probably knew more about Jack's preferences, but did nothing because she had become indifferent.

I found it suggestive that whereas Ennis was shown in several love scenes with Alma, we never really see Jack and Lureen this way after the "making out in the car" scene before they were married.

Did Lureen suspect/know about Jack preferring men?  I know this may lead to some speculation, but we might as well ask the question.

Was Lureen in fact all business in the later years, or did she use the business to hide a rather unpleasant understanding about Jack and her marriage?

[tpe]

I had realized that this old thread was close enough to my discussion about Lureen being all business as a way of hiding from herself an unpleasant fact.

I have merged my topic with this one.  Good to resurrect this thread...

[lamusica]

Well NoReins.....there has to be something in the movie that makes you believe she suspected.  I mean, we just can't makes things up.  By the time Ennis called her she knew about Jack and after talking to Ennis she knew a whole lot more. But I just don't see any indication at all she suspected during their marriage.

I agree with you, Patriot.  I can see nothing in her vocal inflections or facial expressions that indicate she knows.  In the scenes you mentioned above a few posts, I detect nothing held in.  I don't think she suspects anything.  Remember, Jack also visits his parents' place when he goes up to see Ennis.  I think that fact deflects what could overwise have become suspicion.  It's only natural her husband wants to spend a little time with his folks, no?  Well, I'm not even too sure she catches on during the phone call.  Her tears and coldness could just be a reflection of what she was feeling -- perhaps of regret for what she might have been able to do to make their marriage better, but didn't do.  Just MHO. but I think her smarts had more to do with business; she didn't put any real effort into her marriage, her husbnad, or her child.  I doubt if she was too in tune with them.

[keren_b]

Did she know? Let's see she's married to the guy for almost 20 years, He goes off on "fishing trips" with some guy every year 2 or 3 times a year. Guy NEVER comes to Texas to meet the fam. The fact that these trips are'nt shared with anyone else,just the one guy for 20 years?  She finds out from Ennis that BB mountain is a real place where he and Jack spent a summer together.      I think Lureen was a smart enough woman to put the pieces of this puzzle together especially after the phone call from Ennis after Jack's death. I think she knew As always,IMHO.

This post sums up pretty much what I think. Mind you, although I think Lureen figured it out during her phone conversation with Ennis, I'm not sure she knew all along. Still, his fishing trips must've made her wonder, what's so special about this guy that Jack is willing to take these incredibly long trips 2-3 times a year just to see him. Her question to Jack in the "blue parka" scene indicates that she's been thinking about it. She must have realized that this "friend" is very special to Jack for him to do that.

Now, Jack tells her that he wants his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback Mountain. He tells her it's his favorite place in the world. And then she finds out that he spent a summer on Brokeback with Ennis back in '63 and it all adds together - Ennis is the reason for the long trips all these years, Ennis is the reason why Brokeback is such a special place to Jack. Like aintfoolin says, Lureen is a smart woman. Even if she hasn't known until now, now she knows.

[welshwitch]

The more I think about it, the more I think she "knew" but didn't want to know, rather like Ennis "knows" about his feelings for Jack and what they say about him but doesn't want to know. there are several people in this story busily avoiding asking the questions they don't want to hear the answers to.

[lamusica]

I think Lureen is a scrappy little thing, judging from the first time she sees Jack and gets him in the backseat of the car. She's not shy or retiring in the least.  That's why I think she did not suspect the real relationship between j and E.  She would have come out swinging.  She wasn't like Alma -- one who could keep it all inside.  Lureen, I believe, would have faced Jack down and, as we say in the mid-west, "threw her butt around".  She may have gone so far as to divorce him on the spot.  I just don't think her personality ( what we know of it) would let her look the other way or live in suspicion and not confront Jack. I think she was too proud to live that way.  She deserved better and knew it.
       I don't think it's so weird to have a long-distance friend you visit -- especially since, as Jack explained to Lureen, Ennis's truck couldn't have stood a trip to Texas, so Jack had to do the travelling.  Even when Lureen is fussing about Jack always being the one who has to go to Ennis, she's not upset about it.  She just mentions it as something that didn't seem "fair" to her.  They should both share the expense and time of traveling.  i don't think she is ever hinting that they shouldn't visit one another.  She seems cool with that situation.  It's just that the onus is always on Jack to do the driving.

[tpe]

Thanks lamuisica, keren, and WW for voicing out your opinions here.

I am sympathetic to what WW pointed out -- that she sort of knew but refused to know.  But I also understand that the movie gives very little indication that she did know.

Personally, I think Jack's death may have revealed to her something about her husband, so I would say that she probably knew something upon Jack's demise and right before the call from Ennis.  Ennis's call revealed to her Jack's true love, I suppose.  At the very least, Lureen probably had to face the reality after Jack died.