Topic: Its All About the Women

[manhattangirl]

In exploring this story I couldn't help but wonder about the women.  These very different woman with very different lives,  loved  these men in one form or another at various point in these men lives.  Jack and Ennis were not unlovable, and that's the  point, they were loved by these very different women in different way. And these men needed these women, in one form or another.  The idea of marriage and family is very important, considering the place and time this story is told.   But when expectation runs up against reality how painful the experience could be, and there was a lot of pain to go around in  this story.   Jack and Ennis twenty year love story, drew in these woman knowingly or unknowingly in to their conflict,  their back and forth struggle, they undying need for each other.  How consuming physical and mentally that must of been and what was left for the women themselves?   

Alma,  marries Ennis, loves him, struggles with him, tries and builds a life with the man she loves, works outside the home to make ends meet.  See first hand the Kiss, she knows the truth, that sets her world reeling.  What does she do?  Nothing, what could she do.  Continues to struggle and makes ends meet.  Hoping Ennis would take a better job, recognize her efforts, continue to strive for a better life.  But watches him go on his "fishing trips", leaving her alone struggling, the resentment build within her.

Lureen, the most unpopular of the women, some members on this site thinks she might have had something to do with Jack's death, (Man!!! you guys really don't like her), but she is product of her upbringing, just like Jack and Ennis were.  She just happened to be well off.   A real Texans daddy's girl.  Spoil, smart, and knows what she wants and she wanted Jack.  The problem was it had nothing to do about Jack's sexuality, but Jack's lack of social standing, and employment.  Lureen married that "pissant that use to ride the bulls".   And she was well aware of it.  Sexually aggressive with Jack in the beginning, what could have changed over the years, the distance between them were evident but unspoken, maybe it was that third person in the bed between them? The memory of Ennis, when Jack wasn't with him? 

Cassie,  another woman who knew what she wanted and went  after it like grabbing Ennis's hand dragged him  on the dance floor.  She really never had a chance, but tried so hard to get a handle on Ennis, she had to finally ask Alma, Jr does she think her father would ever get hitched again.  the  child replied "maybe  he's not the marrying kind".  How much truth do you need?

Alma Jr., the loving daughter, who wanted a closer relationship with her father, but was kept at a distant. She wanted to live with him to be of help to him,  he of course declined, he needed the space and wanted the time to be able to be with Jack.

Mother Twist, She loved and knew her son,  and protected the most important thing he had, and in a brown paper bag gave it to Ennis, knowing he understood too.

La Shawn, yeah, the chatterbox, she also played a part, albeit unknowingly, possibly Jack's cover, if he did have something going on with Randall. 

The lives of these women was interwoven with these men,  Jack and Ennis loving each other, launching  battles, declaring surrender, hang on to the most important thing to them, the love they had for each other.  After the smoke and dust settled what was left for these women after all?       

[tpe]

Hello manhattangirl .  I won't tackle all the women in one go -- that would be too ambitious.

Between Alma, Cassie, and Lureen, I think Lureen suffered the least because she was "blessed" by the veil of indifference that took hold of her the more she got into the family business.  Not that her pain at the sense of betrayal in the end was any less, but she did not have to suffer for much of the same period in which Alma and Cassie suffered.  Alma and Cassie did care, and we measure the suffering by the depth of their commitment and love for Ennis. 

At least Alma had the consolation of both her daughters and a second husband.  Cassie was able to move on in the end, although she must have suffered a lot.  Cassie reminded me of the young Lureen -- so sure of what she wanted.  She took the initiative in "courting" Ennis.  What more proof do we need about the seriousness of her intentions.  She is perhaps the innocent victim to her love.

[welshwitch]

The worst thing for Lureen must be having to look back at her marriage again, knowing, not just suspecting, that there was someone else in Jack's life and that everything about his life in Childress was undermined by it. But she has the Newsome money and th business, which seems to be her greatest interest.

Alma I think has moved on long before the end of the story. She's ensconced in suburban bliss, with a boring husband, a bad-taste interior and a baby ( and maybe more). That's what she wanted from Ennis and didn't get - Monroe is evidently her idea of a husband. I guess she might when younger have been baffled or confused by the Ennis/Jack relationship but Alma doesn't seem to me the sort who re-examines and analyzes her life.

Cassie has evidently moved on to, more as an act of will than anything else, it appears. She strikes me as a bit like Ennis only in reverse; she couldn't stand it, so she's fixed it and found another more responsive man.

[lamusica]

I have to say it.  I like Lureen.  I, too, see her as a product of her times, place and culture.  I believe she really loved Jack, or thought she did, in the beginning, but life went on and she and Jack went their separate ways emotionally.  In her last scene speaking with Ennis on the phone, I think her tears were for everything she had and didn't have with Jack.  Regrets, as well as memories, came flooding back, causing her eyes to fill with tears.
Alma, I feel, never got over Ennis.  She knew why he never was able to commit fully to her.  She had seen "the kiss", after all.  However, the vitriol with which she questions and attacks Ennis while doing dishes after Thanksgiving dinner shows she still cared.  She still wanted answers.  She needed to hear Ennis admit he didn't love her.  She needed the truth.  Once again, though, she didn't get anything out of him but anger. 
Both of these women suffered for their love of a man who couldn't love them.  Nobody's fault!  Just a force of nature!

[tpe]

I have to say it.  I like Lureen.  I, too, see her as a product of her times, place and culture.  I believe she really loved Jack, or thought she did, in the beginning, but life went on and she and Jack went their separate ways emotionally.  In her last scene speaking with Ennis on the phone, I think her tears were for everything she had and didn't have with Jack.  Regrets, as well as memories, came flooding back, causing her eyes to fill with tears.
Alma, I feel, never got over Ennis.  She knew why he never was able to commit fully to her.  She had seen "the kiss", after all.  However, the vitriol with which she questions and attacks Ennis while doing dishes after Thanksgiving dinner shows she still cared.  She still wanted answers.  She needed to hear Ennis admit he didn't love her.  She needed the truth.  Once again, though, she didn't get anything out of him but anger. 
Both of these women suffered for their love of a man who couldn't love them.  Nobody's fault!  Just a force of nature!

I am also sympathetic to her.  She was hardier -- more steely-edged -- than Alma.  But the hardness turned into a numbing coldness a s she grew older -- fed by indifference and greed.  You are right when you say that she is very much a product of the time place and culture.  I should note that that culture remains with us even today.

She is like so many of us in this regard.  I myself am not afraid to say that, like her, I have shut many a door for "love" of a career and blinding ambition.

[lamusica]

Thomas, what do you think about Alma?  Do you think she still carried a torch for Ennis years after the divorce?  I know she goes on with her life, remarries and has another child, but just the way she acts at the Thanksgiving dinner and the anger that comes out when she speaks with Ennis about the fishing pole and her note, lead me to believe she still hurts deeply.  I translate that hurt into unrequited love.

[welshwitch]

I see it as a manifestation of wounded pride - what woman would want to face the fact that her husband loved her less than he loved another man? It's only once she's established as Munroe's wife, with a reasonable standard of living and a settled life, that she finds herself able to confront Ennis. She has known since witnessing their kiss that the relationship was more than friendship; the fishing-line trick was only confirmatory. When it worked, she did nothing about it then but moved away from Ennis, though it was eight years after the reunion when she divorced him. She's had a lot of emotions repressed inside her - when they break out they take the form of anger, but I think it's anger about the way she was treated by Ennis for so long, not because she still loves him.

[tpe]

Thomas, what do you think about Alma?  Do you think she still carried a torch for Ennis years after the divorce?  I know she goes on with her life, remarries and has another child, but just the way she acts at the Thanksgiving dinner and the anger that comes out when she speaks with Ennis about the fishing pole and her note, lead me to believe she still hurts deeply.  I translate that hurt into unrequited love.

Yes, I do think that with Alma, the damage was terrible.  I doubt that she and Ennis ever talked again after that.  I even doubt that they saw each other again (perhaps Alma Jr.'s wedding would have been the first time in years.)

I did think she loved Ennis deeply, and that her hurt was indeed one of unrequited love.  She certainly tried to put a brave face even after she knew about Ennis and Jack, but I think her holding it all back inevitably made it worse for her.  I think she was emotionally maimed for life because of this, and not even a new huisband or a new child would erase this.

Would she have grown to hate Jr. and Jenny because they would have reminded her of her failed marriage with Ennis?  I wonder?  Part of me says: probabaly not.  But who knows the twists of the human heart?

[lamusica]

I  do agree with  ww's assessment of the hurt and anger speaking when Alma finally lashes out; however, to be that emotional, there had to be love at the basis of it all -- perhaps love that has turned to hate.  I think she's the most pitiful character, but I also think she grew a lot during the duration of the film.  Just getting the divorce pointed towards the changes she had undergone where Ennis is concerned.  The first time I watched the film, I cried as much for Alma as for Ennis and Jack.  Later, after reading a lot of posts, and seeing the movie several more times and thinking about it all, I saw the enigma that is Alma and came to appreciate her complexities.

[tpe]

I  do agree with  ww's assessment of the hurt and anger speaking when Alma finally lashes out; however, to be that emotional, there had to be love at the basis of it all -- perhaps love that has turned to hate.  I think she's the most pitiful character, but I also think she grew a lot during the duration of the film.  Just getting the divorce pointed towards the changes she had undergone where Ennis is concerned.  The first time I watched the film, I cried as much for Alma as for Ennis and Jack.  Later, after reading a lot of posts, and seeing the movie several more times and thinking about it all, I saw the enigma that is Alma and came to appreciate her complexities.

I do believe in the saying that the greater the love, the greater the capacity to hate.  So many a time, we see former lovers becoming the worst of enemies.  Ennis perhaps exhibits this streak.  Again, he connects with human experience in this one.  How many of us have gone through a similar thing one way or the other?

[manhattangirl]

Ennis was "outed" twice during and after his relationship with Jack,  and  by two women closest to both men.   The Thanksgiving scene, When Alma finally confronted Ennis about the "fishing trips" and his relationship with "Jack Nasty".   The second time,  when Jack's mother put her  hand on Ennis's shoulder, and invited him to go to Jack's room.    Don't you think she knew, and understood how important Ennis was to Jack.

Two different women, two different reactions, rejection and acceptance.  Did the earth open up and swallow him whole, no.  Was he attacked and beaten to death, no.  All of Ennis's fears never came to pass, only in his head. 

Jack was gone, and he loved him, will mourn for him,  but he was beginning to realize, after losing so much,  that when some one loves you and  reaches  out for you again and again, you better grab hold of it.    And another woman in his life kept him from utter dispair, and gave him some kind of hope.    Alma, Jr., his daughter,  was that someone he didn't want to lose.  That roundup  became unimportant to him, being at her wedding was the only important thing, and maybe some sort of life can go on.   

[tpe]

Ennis was "outed" twice during and after his relationship with Jack,  and  by two women closest to both men.   The Thanksgiving scene, When Alma finally confronted Ennis about the "fishing trips" and his relationship with "Jack Nasty".   The second time,  when Jack's mother put her  hand on Ennis's shoulder, and invited him to go to Jack's room.    Don't you think she knew, and understood how important Ennis was to Jack.

Two different women, two different reactions, rejection and acceptance.  Did the earth open up and swallow him whole, no.  Was he attacked and beaten to death, no.  All of Ennis's fears never came to pass, only in his head. 

Jack was gone, and he loved him, will mourn for him,  but he was beginning to realize, after losing so much,  that when some one loves you and  reaches  out for you again and again, you better grab hold of it.    And another woman in his life kept him from utter dispair, and gave him some kind of hope.    Alma, Jr., his daughter,  was that someone he didn't want to lose.  That roundup  became unimportant to him, being at her wedding was the only important thing, and maybe some sort of life can go on.   

Was Ennis more accepting of the fact with Jack's mom?  He seemed to have been chased by demons in that confrontation scene with Alma.  I think the difference is that Jack's mom did it in a way where she had to say nothing explicit, and seemed to accept things the way they were, without judgement or a need for an explanation.  What went against Alma was that she tried to also be non-confrontational in the beginning -- chosing to ignore what she had found out.  In the case of Jack's mom, knowledge of her son and Ennis was enveloped by a quiet acceptance -- even resignation -- whereas in the case of Alma, the knowledge was like a cancer eating her up from the inside.

Jack's mom loved her son, and ALma certainly moved Ennis in the beginning?  Where was the difference?  Perhaps the difference lay in the fact that Jack's mom had to endure a lot from her husband, and she thus learned patience and resignation.  Love for her devloped quietly into something truly unconditional.

[welshwitch]

Presumbably he's her only son and she loves him for that reason. We would also probably also think that he would be easier to love than his father. and it's to some degree easier for her than for Alma - she doesn't have to live with someone she knows to be mor involved emotioanlly with someone else, let alone in a relationship that she finds both threatening and unacceptable.

The same is true of Alma Jr; it's easier to accept things that don;t impinge directly on your own life.

And of course Jack was dead by the time both women became involved with Ennis - previously Alma had been a child and had then been separated from him for some time - now she's an adult about to embark on her own life and move on.

[lamusica]

Jack's mom smiles when she touches Ennis's shoulder.  That smile says more than acceptance to me.  It tells us she was happy that someone loved her boy as much as she does.  She wasn't judgemental at all, but happy to meet the man her son loved enough to entwine and keep their shirts together in his closet.  Her little smile says it all to me.  Another non-verbal that conveys SOOOOOOO much meaning.

[chameau]

Thanks for starting this very interesting new thread manhattangirl.

About Lureen, I have nothing against her but indeed her interest was more into the familly business than saving her marriage.  I agree with the ones who said she suspected about Jack having an affair, she must have been suspecting the "fishing buddy", I mean, see her reaction when Ennis called her, her tears and the cold voice, she finally realized who Ennis was for Jack, no?

About Alma, she really loved Ennis at the beginning but was hurted real bad by what she witnessed, Ennis never kissed her like this but she kept silent for years.    she really loved Ennis until she couldn't take it anymore of the miserable life they had... I think.  Even at the thanksgiving scene, she was worry for Ennis not marrying again... did she ever stopped to love Ennis after all?  Monroe was a more "convenient" husband and made her life more comfortable but "her man" was Ennis, IMO.

About Cassie, "girls don't fall in love with fun" and her tears summarize it, she loved Ennis for sure and was still in love I guess.

Ennis was "outed" twice during and after his relationship with Jack,  and  by two women closest to both men.   The Thanksgiving scene, When Alma finally confronted Ennis about the "fishing trips" and his relationship with "Jack Nasty".   The second time,  when Jack's mother put her  hand on Ennis's shoulder, and invited him to go to Jack's room.    Don't you think she knew, and understood how important Ennis was to Jack.

Good points.  About Jack's mum:  she knew, understood and accepted how important Ennis was to Jack.

Jack's mom smiles when she touches Ennis's shoulder.  That smile says more than acceptance to me.  It tells us she was happy that someone loved her boy as much as she does.  She wasn't judgemental at all, but happy to meet the man her son loved enough to entwine and keep their shirts together in his closet.  Her little smile says it all to me.  Another non-verbal that conveys SOOOOOOO much meaning.

Not only this but her last quote:  "You come back and see us again?" says it all, Jack being alive she would have accepted Ennis as a son in law.  She knew how much Jack loved Ennis.  She was now taking Ennis as a surrogate son.

[manhattangirl]

Presumbably he's her only son and she loves him for that reason. We would also probably also think that he would be easier to love than his father. and it's to some degree easier for her than for Alma - she doesn't have to live with someone she knows to be mor involved emotioanlly with someone else, let alone in a relationship that she finds both threatening and unacceptable.

The same is true of Alma Jr; it's easier to accept things that don;t impinge directly on your own life.

And of course Jack was dead by the time both women became involved with Ennis - previously Alma had been a child and had then been separated from him for some time - now she's an adult about to embark on her own life and move on.

Alma, Jr. all throughout always tried to make a connection with her father, right up until the time she was grown.  She loved her father.  If he wanted to be more involved in her life I couldn't see her not letting it happened.  This is a man whose whole adult life was consumed by the love for one man, his lover now gone from him, finds that there is still one person who cares for him, and Alma, Jr. did.  Who else would drive out to the middle of nowhere to be with him? 

As far as Jack's mother is concern did you see the very modest, almost rundown house they lived in.  Not change since Jack was a child.  Imagine now how his personality filled that empty house, and filled her life.  It's not how many kids you have, it's the child that fills your heart with love, and yes that SOB of a father played a factor, I've know men like this in my life, and if you're strong enough manage in spite of them, to still hold on to love in whatever form is a victory, and Jack's mother is filled with that love,  no matter how simple it may have seemed. 

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

This is the first thread I've really visited where the women were discussed in depth. I'm sure there are others that were started.

I do believe that Alma loved Ennis...even after the divorce.  However, the hurt she endured came to a head during the Thanksgiving kitchen scene.  She needed to confront Ennis about what she knew of his and Jack's relationship.  I don't think she was too surprised by his reaction despite the fact that it was volatile.  I think she wanted to confront him regardless.

As for Lureen, I agree the popular assessment of her being a well off, daddy's girl.  I saw nothing in the film or short story that indicated she knew the significance of Jack and Ennis's relationship until her phone conversation with Ennis.  After all, she did pretty much say that she thought of Brokeback Mountain as a place that Jack imagined.  Lureen may have been oblivious, but she quickly did the math when she realized the place actually existed and that Ennis was part of why BBM was so special to Jack.

[manhattangirl]

HiAltshag:


Friend,

With all due respect, I wasn't talking about the larger world view, I think we are all very aware of how people can do terrible things to each other, for whatever reason, not only sexual preference, also religion, and skin color, we see every day all around the world.  It's not something that's escapes any of us, I wish is wasn't so, but it is. 

I was only speaking of the context of this story, of the women in this story, and the relationship to the men.  When I pointed out that Alma, and Jack's mother knew of the relationship of  Ennis and Jack,  I was pointing out that nothing bad happened to Ennis, he didn't  grow horns or anything like that.   He did find that rejection and also acceptance.   

[tpe]

Thanks, friends, for the wonderful posts! 

I think the women of BBM represented different microcosms on their own, no?  They were united in their own individual emotional and physical entanglements with the characters, but each of them were different in so many ways. 

[aintfoolin]

 Lureen's icy cold demeanor towards Ennis after he called her up to find out about Jack's death just gave me the chilly willys. Yes, maybe her eyes filled with tears, but not one really fell. I'm one of those who thinks she knew more than she was telling about Jack's death.  Apparently Ennis did'nt beleive her story either.Either she'd told it a million times or had "gotten the story staight with a co-conspirator" . It was SO rehearsed.
Their marriage had dissolved down to " do it over the phone " level according to Jack, so He was probably going to divorce her very soon. Motive? Born  out of suspicion of someone else?
Alma is a different story, she is the only woman here who really got totally blindsided. One minute she's a fairly happily married woman, the next minute every thing she beleived had been based on lies. She was a true victim of circumstances in this thing IMO. At Thanksgiving dinner I agree that she did want Ennis to know that she would not be fooled any longer. At last after all that time and the lies she was "suppose" to beleive were exposed , exposing or "outing" Ennis in the process. I suppose she was blaming  Jack since he was the "nasty one" who had somehow managed to "soil" Ennis and break up her marriage.  What came between her and Ennis was a summer of enlightenment with Jack on Brokeback Mountain. Ennis should have let her down easy and backed out of the wedding and allowed her many happy years  of wedded bliss with Monroe! Jack's mommy was an angel  #)of mercy. nuff said .

[tpe]

Alma is a different story, she is the only woman here who really got totally blindsided. One minute she's a fairly happily married woman, the next minute every thing she beleived had been based on lies. She was a true victim of circumstances in this thing IMO.

I agree, aintfoolin.  All of them suffered.  But I think Alma suffered most visibly, if you know what I mean. She didn't have the defense provided by a love cooling down by dint of indifference.

[manhattangirl]

Lureen's icy cold demeanor towards Ennis after he called her up to find out about Jack's death just gave me the chilly willys. Yes, maybe her eyes filled with tears, but not one really fell. I'm one of those who thinks she knew more than she was telling about Jack's death.  Apparently Ennis did'nt beleive her story either.Either she'd told it a million times or had "gotten the story staight with a conspirator" . It was SO rehear**d.
Their marriage had dissolved down to " do it over the phone " level according to Jack, so He was probably going to divorce her very soon. Motive? Born  out of suspicion of someone else?
Alma is a different story, she is the only woman here who really got totally blindsided. One minute she's a fairly happily married woman, the next minute every thing she beleived had been based on lies. She was a true victim of circumstances in this thing IMO. At Thanksgiving dinner I agree that she did want Ennis to know that she would not be fooled any longer. At last after all that time and the lies she was "suppose" to beleive were exposed , exposing or "outing" Ennis in the process. I suppose she was blaming  Jack since he was the "nasty one" who had somehow managed to "soil" Ennis and break up her marriage.  What came between her and Ennis was a summer of enlightenment with Jack on Brokeback Mountain. Ennis should have let her down easy and backed out of the wedding and allowed her many happy years  of wedded bliss with Monroe! Jack's mommy was an angel  #)of mercy. nuff said .

You certainly do not pull any punches.   Great Post.   The one thing that bothers me, woman are cast as either good or bad,   not in between,  no shades of gray. Alma had straight up evidence of the relationship, she saw  it first hand, but she of course couldn't plot to have her rival killed off, whereas, Lureen had no evidence, maybe only the mumblings of Jack when he was drinking "whiskey streams, and blue birds sing," and she still didn't understand what it meant, she could have hire a hit man.

But it was her demeanor that got folks upset when she talk to Ennis on the phone,  Why not give the right to have the cool, almost cold demeanor.   Because she didn't wail, breakdown, cry her eyes out talking to Ennis, right away we think she is a co-conspirator?     Why is it that woman can be categorized only in two ways, good or evil? 

[lachlan]

We don't have television reception in our village, but I have a dvd/vcr and often get together with friends and neighbours to watch films on it. Interestingly, I recently got a copy of "Dr Zhivago" (not the David Lean film from the '60s, but a splendidly scripted series made more recently by the BBC). It is, in essence, the story of a very noble man with a happy marriage who unexpectedly falls in love with another woman (Lara). He writes love poems about Lara and, ultimately, impregnates her. But he never looses his love for his wife Tonya. What I found interesting, from a personal perspective, is how neighbours of mine who thought of Ennis and Jack as somewhat deceitful cads who betrayed their wives felt quite differently about Dr Zhivago; as if his love for two women was noble and selfless. I believe that there's still a lingering notion that a man with more than one woman is admirable, but a man with both a woman and another man is a cheat. I've also noticed (in other places - not in my own community) that a gay person is often socially accepted as long as he's camp and flamboyant, but a man who quietly goes with other men but doesn't make an open display of the fact is perceived as threatening.

[tpe]

We don't have television reception in our village, but I have a dvd/vcr and often get together with friends and neighbours to watch films on it. Interestingly, I recently got a copy of "Dr Zhivago" (not the David Lean film from the '60s, but a splendidly scripted series made more recently by the BBC). It is, in essence, the story of a very noble man with a happy marriage who unexpectedly falls in love with another woman (Lara). He writes love poems about Lara and, ultimately, impregnates her. But he never looses his love for his wife Tonya. What I found interesting, from a personal perspective, is how neighbours of mine who thought of Ennis and Jack as somewhat deceitful cads who betrayed their wives felt quite differently about Dr Zhivago; as if his love for two women was noble and selfless. I believe that there's still a lingering notion that a man with more than one woman is admirable, but a man with both a woman and another man is a cheat. I've also noticed (in other places - not in my own community) that a gay person is often socially accepted as long as he's camp and flamboyant, but a man who quietly goes with other men but doesn't make an open display of the fact is perceived as threatening.

This is quite telling, lachlan.  And yes, I had noticed that too with a number of people.  I guess people always don't realize that they think in a box. 

In any case, it is understandable that they see the women as victims in BBM, without understanding that they are much more than that.

[welshwitch]

You can, if you want to, read both women as entrapping men, Alma by offering Ennis the prospect of a settled home and family when his own has disappeared or deserted him, Lureen by offering Jack the prospect of sex and money.This is the literary picture of woman the temptress - it goes back to Eve. You can also look at them from the opposite point of view, as woman the virgin, at least in Alma's case, the sacred mother; Lureen, whether virginal or not, also becomes a mother, and both become victims of men who betray them.

But neither is as simple as any literary paradigm suggests; you can argue that Alma ties Ennis down, lumbers him with children and childcare, nags him to give up doing what he likes and do something better paid but less suited to him, while Lureen, having secired the heir for the family business, sidelines Jack and goes hell-for-leather in pursuit of money. You can also see both women as either complicit because they know what's going on between Ennis and Jack but do nothing about it, or as too indiffernt to see the reality in front of them.

All of these are to some degree true but none is complete in itslef.

[hpv]

What I found interesting, from a personal perspective, is how neighbours of mine who thought of Ennis and Jack as somewhat deceitful cads who betrayed their wives felt quite differently about Dr Zhivago; as if his love for two women was noble and selfless. I believe that there's still a lingering notion that a man with more than one woman is admirable, but a man with both a woman and another man is a cheat.

lachlan,
You are so right about it.!
There is that double standart,  the "other " (women,gay..etc) will always be undermined.
I can add also, the diffrent approach towards much older men with a young women sometimes a teenager..is  seen quite normal if not even admired,from a males point of view only,mindyou, but in opposite situation..well you know I don't have to write it down, the laughs, disrespect, contempt, scorn, behind their backs or even to their faces. 

[manhattangirl]

You can, if you want to, read both women as entrapping men, Alma by offering Ennis the prospect of a settled home and family when his own has disappeared or deserted him, Lureen by offering Jack the prospect of sex and money.This is the literary picture of woman the temptress - it goes back to Eve. You can also look at them from the opposite point of view, as woman the virgin, at least in Alma's case, the sacred mother; Lureen, whether virginal or not, also becomes a mother, and both become victims of men who betray them.

But neither is as simple as any literary paradigm suggests; you can argue that Alma ties Ennis down, lumbers him with children and childcare, nags him to give up doing what he likes and do something better paid but less suited to him, while Lureen, having secired the heir for the family business, sidelines Jack and goes hell-for-leather in pursuit of money. You can also see both women as either complicit because they know what's going on between Ennis and Jack but do nothing about it, or as too indiffernt to see the reality in front of them.

All of these are to some degree true but none is complete in itslef.

I love your post.   So clear and so precise.  Its a kaleidescope of views you can reach.   Were they victims, or not.  Were they comsplicit in the relationships, that could be argured.   Alma slow cooking through the years after she saw the kiss.  Lureen tolerance of someone calling her husband "the pissant that use to ride the bulls", did she think of her husband in that same way?   Marriage in itself doesn't erase the real underlying feelings one may have about their spouse, it just doesn't.  We question the reason why Alma, stayed married to Ennis for so long, until the marriage self destructed, and even after that Ennis insisted on holding on to the remains, by declaring child support was his reasons not to change, and as for Lureen  she held on  until she became a widow.   

Maybe we try to hold on to what we know,  it's scary to leave that zone of knowing what you have, then going into the zone of the unknown.  Come to think of it.  It was that way for all four of them.  Until fate chose it for them.   

[tpe]

You can, if you want to, read both women as entrapping men, Alma by offering Ennis the prospect of a settled home and family when his own has disappeared or deserted him, Lureen by offering Jack the prospect of sex and money.This is the literary picture of woman the temptress - it goes back to Eve. You can also look at them from the opposite point of view, as woman the virgin, at least in Alma's case, the sacred mother; Lureen, whether virginal or not, also becomes a mother, and both become victims of men who betray them.

But neither is as simple as any literary paradigm suggests; you can argue that Alma ties Ennis down, lumbers him with children and childcare, nags him to give up doing what he likes and do something better paid but less suited to him, while Lureen, having secired the heir for the family business, sidelines Jack and goes hell-for-leather in pursuit of money. You can also see both women as either complicit because they know what's going on between Ennis and Jack but do nothing about it, or as too indiffernt to see the reality in front of them.

All of these are to some degree true but none is complete in itslef.

What an interesting point of view.

In a sense, both women started out knowing full well what they wanted, no?  This is contrast to the men, who certainly didn't know what they wanted.   I guess both men mistook the women's point of view to be their own point of view -- her world to be his world.  In each case, both were victims: she to her own fixed expectations, he for mistaking hers to be his.