Maybe Im way off. Are you sayin the DE might not really a happen at all but was pieced together though the fog of memory and happenings over 20 years. Either way it was what stayed with him. Kept him commin back. Till the bitter end of it all.
I also see not enough evidence that DE could be a distorted or a false memory. ~)
I believe that human being can absolutely keep memory for 20 years especially the things that hit us at the time. And Jack was deeply moved by Ennis's hug and humming and all the love he felt coming from him during the DE.
The one thing that is also worthy of mentioning is that the feeling of the hug, the emotions passed from Ennis to Jack were described just through Ennis. And Jack was the one who held on to this memory. Very interesting way of introducing the scene in SS, - one is remembering the embrace, but the embrace is given through the other one's emotions. So, if we get the explanation of the DE through Ennis, that means that it was the true memory! IMHO....
Here we come back to the mirroring of their lives, feelings, fears and destiny... Anything that had risen in one, found it's reflection in other. <^(
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi139.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq313%2Fjackster545%2FDozySite.jpg&hash=01d8d91bc37e1ddc67ad66e8728c341fb51c5028)Everybody is moved by this scene, especially how it is magically transformed from Annie’s words to the screen in one of the most (some would say THE most) unforgettable visual couplings ever constructed in moviedom. There are several aspects of this scene that are intriguing to me. First, is the phenomena of memory itself - what's your best memory from 20 years ago? How accurately do you feel it would match someone else’s memory of the same emotional event? I believe trial lawyers say that eyewitness accounts of events are often the most misleading and undependable because two people seeing the same thing will describe it very differently. So here we're looking back through Jack's eyes at an event 20 years ago, during what we're told (by Lureen) to be the very happiest time in his life (summer on Brokeback), involving the most significant person in his life. A chance for his own hallucination or at least aggrandizement of events here? by Jack Twist – “Like most a Jack’s ideas . . . / where bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring” - Seems very possible to me, I’m not saying this is so mind you, but possible, given the very creative way that Annie has woven this tale and developed the mind of Jack Twist.
Secondly, there is the contridictions we're presented with between the SS and the movie regarding the nature of the DE (Dozy Embrace) events. From the SS . . .
What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger.
They had stood that way for a long time in front of the fire, its burning tossing ruddy chunks of light, the shadow of their bodies a single column against the rock. The minutes ticked by from the round watch in Ennis's pocket, from the sticks in the fire settling into coals. Stars bit through the wavy heat layers above the fire. Ennis's breath came slow and quiet, he hummed, rocked a little in the sparklight, and Jack leaned against the steady heartbeat, the vibrations of the humming like faint electricity and, standing, he fell into sleep that was not sleep but something else drowsy and tranced until Ennis, dredging up a rusty but still usable phrase from the childhood time before his mother died, said, "Time to hit the hay, cowboy. I got a go. Come on, you're sleepin on your feet like a horse," and gave Jack a shake, a push, and went off in the darkness. Jack heard his spurs tremble as he mounted, the words "See you tomorrow," and the horse's shuddering snort, grind of hoof on stone.
Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see or feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that. Let be, let be.
Annie’s said she struggled for a long time developing this incredible word picture where Jack remembers a recalcitrant but passionate Ennis (I believe she said her most difficult task of the entire story). But, in the movie, we see not one, not two, but three instances where Ennis kisses Jack, and not innocent little pecks, but passionate face-to-face, wet frontal assaults. The romantic SNIT; the knock your hat off post SNIT campsite frolic; and the super heated reunion in ‘67. In the movie Ennis had no trouble with a full frontal embrace and a real taste of Jack. The last two apparently instigated by Ennis. Ain’t no reins here.
The reunion kiss is described in the SS as a hot jolt, an almost out-of-body experience for Ennis. So I tend to think of it as possibly not “rational”, he was simply crazed with lust in that moment (almost like FNIT, huh?). But there are these other two pretty damn good kisses in the film. So what going on? The SS description of Jack’s reverie in the DE doesn’t actually match events portrayed in film. Is this discordance a problem? The difference between Jack’s memory of the DE (twenty years later) and the reality we’re shown? Do these contradictions make the DE less significant because we know Ennis’s passion not only allowed him, but also forced him to kiss Jack him face to face? And repeatedly, not only the several times we see, but by implication during other passionate moments (my interpretation).
Would the film Dozy Embrace be more powerful if it and the reunion kiss were the ONLY two moments of romantic passion we see in the film, as they are in the SS? Almost everyone wants to see more romance (me too), but I wonder if this is a case of “less is more”.
I read the whole thread with greatest interest! Since first BBM watching can't stop thinking and analysing the DE scene, looking for the interpretation that would satisfy my longing for understanding. Reading about "phenomena of memory itself" and about the discordance between Jack's memory of DE and the reality shown by film helps me to name the twinkles of insights I carry in my mind.
What if the interpretation of DE memory given in SS is not only the individual Jack's interpretation (which seems to be a fact) but also the interpretation for the certain moment in time? Time of final confrontation. For me the significant power of DE shown us only just after killing FC comes from the difference between Jack's interpretation and my own understanding of their true relations. I like Jackster recalled other passionate and definitely face-to-face moment of intimacy. They certailny were not the only ones, there was plenty of others...not recovered to us.....invisible. DE scene hit me so painfully because of the dfference between my vision of them Two and Jack's memory of that. It hurts me so much every single minute I imagine how broken and suffering Jack had to be at that time to lose his faith in Ennis's love. I wrote "love" cos for me the idea of Ennis who 'would not embrace Jack face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held" means only one - not love at all.
I've gotta go w/ Ranchand1 & Loreen on this one. I think that the Movie wasn't meant to mirror the SS, & that the DE was indeed a memory from their time on BB, & a wonderful memory at that. It's one of my favorite scenes. :gnight:
Well, I think that in spirit, the movie and the ss were very close -- especially in the matter of the DE, don't you agree? But yes, the movie is not meant simply as a mirror of the ss. I must admit that the DE seen visually (as envisioned in the movie) truly adds insight to the words on the ss.Yes I think that it was worked so well in to the film, Jack remembering that right after the FC and watching Ennis drive away. It just gets me every time :\'(
Thanks all for very interesting and thoughtful insights: thomas, ranchhand, loreen, skrzatka, atalley. Apologies for my poorly worded statement. I mixed up two issues, my main idea and question was to see if anyone felt that Annie Proulx - in the way she laid out events leading to, and even events subsequent to the mention of the DE, if she was setting the stage for making the DE possibly an invention or at least a substantial creation of Jack’s dreamy imagination. Unfortunately I also brought into the discussion the “variations” between film & SS Dozy Embrace and that kinda’ confused it. ^*()
Annie makes a point of establishing Jack a “dreamer” wanting things to be so much better than they are, maybe better than they possibly could be. “Nothin never come to my hand the right way.” And I don’t mean with just Ennis, but with life in general. As his bitter father said – “Like most a Jack’s ideas it never come to pass”.
So I’m sitting here wondering, gee, did the DE actually come to pass? We never do see or hear of it from Ennis’s view, only Jacks. Maybe this was another a Jack’s dreams, or maybe a collection of all his dreams. When you read her passage here, it is so beautiful, so impossibly beautiful . . “the shadow of their bodies a single column against the rock. The minutes ticked by from the round watch in Ennis's pocket . . “ Oh man, don’t we all wish we had one moment in our lives like that, one that stuck with us for our entire lives?
Has she turned the entire summer of ’63 up on Brokeback into the Dozy Embrace? Not that it didn’t happen, just that it happened all summer long, and especially after SNIT. It wasn’t false, anymore than our memories of childhood are false. Huh?
You grought up an interesting point Jacster. Let's assume that DE did indeed happen. Did Ennis remember it at all as something special? Did it even register the way it did with Jack?
My suspicion is that it didn't. Not that this reflected bad on Ennis. I think that Ennis just reached out to a distant memory as a matter of fact: they way we take certain childhood rituals for granted. But I think Jack saw this memory of Ennis's mom as something special -- it signified that the love that Ennis had for Jack was deep and genuine, going beyond all physical desire, as in the love of a mother for her child.
Interesting point Thomas. And I suspect you're right that Ennis didn't hold onto this memory in the same way that Jack did because Jack was clinging to that sense of a deeper, love-filled relationship during his lifetime and Ennis was still running from the idea at that time.
One can wonder just how many of those avoided memories Ennis may have conjured up after Jack was gone and he'd come to embrace their relationship as love.
Interesting point Thomas. And I suspect you're right that Ennis didn't hold onto this memory in the same way that Jack did because Jack was clinging to that sense of a deeper, love-filled relationship during his lifetime and Ennis was still running from the idea at that time.
One can wonder just how many of those avoided memories Ennis may have conjured up after Jack was gone and he'd come to embrace their relationship as love.
I was also thinking over Ennis's memory of DE. My understanding of them both tells me that maybe Jack remembered DE as something so special not only because DE was for him the sign of Ennis's deep and true love but also because in DE Ennis gave Jack what he himself probably had never had - tenderness and artless love, "the love of a mother for her child".
Looking at myself, I have to say that the memories of receiving are much stronger, than the memories of giving.
my fave scene from the movie (aside from the SNIT and reunion nuzzle
Certainly my favorite -- real or imagined. :)I'm turning around this or SNIT as my favorites.And I think it's Jack imagination,or remembrance,of something real applied in a moment when all this past happiness with a probable future ahead had turned into despair and lack of hope in their future.
I'm turning around this or SNIT as my favorites.And I think it's Jack imagination,or remembrance,of something real applied in a moment when all this past happiness with a probable future ahead had turned into despair and lack of hope in their future.
I think what differentiates DE from anything else is that is went way beyond love and desire. It really was about peace and contentment. Had Jack died there and then in 63 (assuming that it did indeed happen), I suspect that he wouldn't have minded too much.
If DE was not real, it nonetheless embodied what Jack treasured most about thier love.
Oh that's beautifully put Thomas.
And I would have to agree that this would be one of those "If I died right now I'd die happy" moments for Jack. Everything that their time on the mountain meant to him summed up in one embrace. That is indeed a moment worth holding in your memory.
Thanks friends.
I had wondered sometimes whether it would have been better for them to have ended their lives in the summer of 63.
Jackster had noted whether DE was something like a dream. But sometimes, I wonder whether it was their life after the summer of 63 that was a dream...
- maybe cowboy delmar wanted to do "it" standing up???, like a quickie before he went off to the sheep.
Thanks Thomas...Thats there but they both r very much co related that I always see them 2 sides of the same coin..When Ennis breaks down in the FC and Jack comforts him, Jack is seeing where the relationship is going..So many years of pain and fears r showing up in the FC..In that moment of pain DE reminds him of one strong and emotional moment spend by both where no fears and pains were surrounding them but just true love..
Then again we see a look of Jack in FC watching Ennis leave..Jack standing there with the image of DE in his heart and the truth of FC in front of his eyes
Yes, they are different sides of the same coin. And the contrast could not be greater.
The interesting thing is that in the movie, we see Jack remembering this during Ennis's collapse in the Last Confrontation. But in the short story, it seems to happen later, after Ennis had left. Do you get the same impression?
I think the movie's decision to embed the DE into the Last Confrontation increses the power of the latter and gives the DE more timely significance, by way of contrast.
If you don't mind. I will also post this exchange in the thread about the DE...
WOW, Thomas...You always leave me speechless. Little gorgeous post, that made me think a lot. Thank you!! :^^)
Thomas, that's such a good interpretation of the lives they led and how they might have viewed them. When you give up something so valuable to follow what you believe to be your duty, the life you choose can seem less real than the one that lives in your heart, especially if you have such beautiful memories to cement it.
I am reminded of a passage in a book I read last year where two people meet up after many years apart and one tells the other:
"Seeing you here is like waking from a twenty-year coma. You look around you and you find that your wife has left you, your children, whose childhood you totally missed out on, are grown men, some are married, your parents have died long ago, you have no friends, and that tiny face staring at you through goggles belongs to none other than your grandson, who's been brought along to welcome Gramps from his long sleep. Your face in the mirror is as white as Rip Van Winkle's. But here's the catch: you're still tweny years younger than those gathered around you, which is why I can be tweny-four in a second - I am twenty-four..."
He says then that he prefers to call it a parallel life because it sounds better. Jack and Ennis had to live parallel lives and in their case, they were teased occasionally along the way with little snippets of moments when they came out of their comas and back into the summer of '63.
I still haven't figured out which would be worse. To lose it all and wish for the rest of your life that you could have held onto it, but at the same time achieve some sort of closure which is in itself a form of healing? Or to be able to touch it at least now and then but thereby always have the wound exposed of knowing that that is all it can ever be? Either way, it is not at all surprising that a person would hold onto a golden memory like that as the symbol of all that the relationship meant/means to him. Because everything that comes after is really just an attempt to recapture that perfect moment in time.
I just want to share with you here an ongoing exchange about DE and the Last Confrontation in the Favorite Scenes thread. It highlights the tight relationship between the two scenes -- and whether the DE was fact or fantasy, its emotional impact/significance in our understanding of the Last confrontation is very real:Thank you for adding our exchange in this topic Thomas. I have never posted here before and feel very happy that this topis is started by Jackster..
Thank you for adding our exchange in this topic Thomas. I have never posted here before and feel very happy that this topis is started by Jackster..
As to your question, in the SS I feel Jack got this DE impression when he watches Ennis leave..In the SS, Ennis breaks down and then is heading towards his car and Jack watches him leave....
In the film when Ennis breaks down Jack is comforting him and the next moment we see the DE..Well I feel that when DE is going on in the film (remembered by Jack) on the FC side Ennis is heading towards the car and Jack is watching him leave....Then when DE is over and they show a look of Jack watching Ennis leave in the FC, Ennis has taken the car to the end of the road by that time..
Well just an analysis.What do u think ?
You know, I woke up this morning with what I thought was a wonderful insight into this dream/reality discussion. But just right now, I can't seem to remember what I wanted to say or to cite! ;DDon't worry,Thomas;you always know what to say or to citeˇ.And I'm not foolin 'ˇ %(
I'll try to remember it and post it as soon as it comes back to me...
I agree in that,meanwhile in S.S. the DE time is rather more ambiguous,in the movie it has a reason to be put in this moment and not in any other else...To watch this precious moment forever saved in Jack's mind and heart,precisely in the middle of the FC,is an almost violent cut that shows us how all the perfect love's dreams he had then,have broken down and turned into bitter complaints and,what's worst,the almost total renounce to their accomplishment.As a way to compare both situations for us,the viewers,or as a way to long for the lost hopes in Jack's eyes,it's absolutely meaningful and that's meaning reaches a dramatic point,precisely for this... :\'(
You know, I woke up this morning with what I thought was a wonderful insight into this dream/reality discussion. But just right now, I can't seem to remember what I wanted to say or to cite! ;D
I'll try to remember it and post it as soon as it comes back to me...
Thomas, that's a gorgeous philosophy and I love it! It fits absolutely perfectly with the Dozy Embrace. :c)
You know, I did remember what I wanted to say.
:)
In Japanese aesthetics, there is a concept called yugen, which finds its most concrete manifestation in the Japanese Noh drama.
Yugen can be thought of as an unveiling of something beautiful in half-light -- in a state frequently referred to as the boundary between dream and reality. In such as state, beauty simply suggests itself, as something mysterious and elusive, and yet palpable and undeniable.
Yugen tells us that you don't have to understand beauty completely in order to know it and feel that it is real. As in the DE, the beauty is in its absolute power to evoke/suggest, rather than to state things emphatically in full light.
In other words, the most profound things are best "understood" in the half-light -- knowing that there are certiain things (such as love and beauty) that go beyond absolute human comprehension.
. . . Yugen can be thought of as an unveiling of something beautiful in half-light -- in a state frequently referred to as the boundary between dream and reality. In such as state, beauty simply suggests itself, as something mysterious and elusive, and yet palpable and undeniable. . .
You know, I did remember what I wanted to say.
:)
In Japanese aesthetics, there is a concept called yugen, which finds its most concrete manifestation in the Japanese Noh drama.
Yugen can be thought of as an unveiling of something beautiful in half-light -- in a state frequently referred to as the boundary between dream and reality. In such as state, beauty simply suggests itself, as something mysterious and elusive, and yet palpable and undeniable.
Yugen tells us that you don't have to understand beauty completely in order to know it and feel that it is real. As in the DE, the beauty is in its absolute power to evoke/suggest, rather than to state things emphatically in full light.
In other words, the most profound things are best "understood" in the half-light -- knowing that there are certiain things (such as love and beauty) that go beyond absolute human comprehension.
Beautiful post, tpe! ^f^
as much as we can apply it to DE, I'd say that it is applicable to the whole magic of BBM.
You know, I did remember what I wanted to say.
:)
In Japanese aesthetics, there is a concept called yugen, which finds its most concrete manifestation in the Japanese Noh drama.
Yugen can be thought of as an unveiling of something beautiful in half-light -- in a state frequently referred to as the boundary between dream and reality. In such as state, beauty simply suggests itself, as something mysterious and elusive, and yet palpable and undeniable.
Yugen tells us that you don't have to understand beauty completely in order to know it and feel that it is real. As in the DE, the beauty is in its absolute power to evoke/suggest, rather than to state things emphatically in full light.
In other words, the most profound things are best "understood" in the half-light -- knowing that there are certiain things (such as love and beauty) that go beyond absolute human comprehension.
Especially since for them, the dream was what they found together on that mountain and the reality was the world they had to face when they came back down.
Yes thomas, I believe you have made a very appropriate analogy here, especially in regards to Annie's description of the scene:. . . . that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come
up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some
shared and sexless hunger.
They had stood that way for a long time in front of the fire, its
burning tossing ruddy chunks of light, the shadow of their bodies a single
column against the rock. The minutes ticked by from the round watch in
Ennis's pocket, from the sticks in the fire settling into coals. Stars bit
through the wavy heat layers above the fire. . . .
She makes it perfectly clear that this is at least a twilight scene, if not darkness, illuminated only by the firelight (and their shared passion). Whether knowingly or not it seems she intended to convey the same concept of the border between a dream world and reality. You've made a wonderful insight here.
(You must have a very inspiring shower ^-^ )
Especially since for them, the dream was what they found together on that mountain and the reality was the world they had to face when they came back down.
Dear Thomas, it's absolutely beautiful and so encouraging insight that certainly applies not only to our wonderful BBM world ^f^
If I only could absorb this idea truly and deeply, it would help me to be a better person by confirming my belief in magical reality.
What is your favourite book you re-read on the evening before the "yugen morning"?
Or was in fact the dream the reality, and the reality, the dream?
. . . was not a life of pretending no more real than a dream?
Thanks traveller! I think all of us strive for something like this all the time -- which is why the DE affects us the way it does... a magical reality.
The book is actually a wonderful catalogue to an exhibition at the LA County Museum of Art: Miracles and Mischief: Noh and Kyogen Theater in Japan.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lacma.org%2Fart%2Fexhibition%2Fcatalogthumbs%2FNoh_cataloga100x91.jpg&hash=e7d4423822f5eed94ff2564ff3ae97cf17071890)
http://www.lacma.org/art/exhibition/Past/noh/miracles.htm
Or was in fact the dream the reality, and the reality, the dream?
I mean: was not a life of pretending no more real than a dream?
Thomas, your observation is exactly what inspired me to pose this thread question. Jack the dreamer, all of us as dreamers, where does fantasy end and reality begin? "When you wish upon a star . . . ."
Japanese culture. It's always seemed to be so mysterious for me that I've never made effort to know this one just a little bit.
Shame on me.
Thanks for sharing.
Your "dream or reality" discussion forces me to stand up for them and the same for myself.
I wish always to see them living their reality up on the Brokeback Mountain, coming down to have their portions of misery in the bad dreams of isolation.
I suppose for both of them their lives away from each other felt like the dream (or nightmare) and they only truly awoke in each other's presence.
. . . . I am sure that Ang Lee is very much steeped in this POV.
Boy, would this make for some interesting conversation with Ang Lee! To get a little insight into his initial reaction to reading both the SS and Screenplay (which do you suppose he read first?). And then garner some slight view of his thinking and interpretation about the Dozy Embrace, did the he connect it's dreamy quality with the Buddist experience, maybe even subconsciously? Ang is so shy and quiet it might take a very talented person to draw him out on this. Of course this what a truly wonderful followup or expanded Blu-Ray DVD would contain. I hope I live to see it some day. And how very sad that our transforming protagonist will not be here to contribute his interpretation also. :-\\
I LOVE you recall the Buddhist beliefs because it reminds us of Ennis's and Jack's chance to overcome their karma! At the same time I am not sure if their untamed and "no reins on this one" love would fit to Buddhist calm ;)
. . . BBM itself as some expression of what is commonly called "Karmic Retribution" -- that it is not about suffering, but about realization, or the waking up from the dream of what we call "reality".
Thomas, I agree fully with your (and travellers) expression here.
What we're seeing here is the evolution (and growth) of a man.
Your posts interprating the DE and the BBM in terms of the Buddhist beliefs have been more revealing to me than I though reading them first time.
One of my worst concern after entering BBM world was the lost of my ability to be in my present. Thinking of BBM as of Karmic Retribution gives me chance to absorb its tragedy in terms of karmic "cause and effect" law which always brings hope and helps to find the sense. It is like looking for reasons of their lost happiness and believing in their evaluation.
The DE may have been the closest Jack ever got to the absolute feeling of contentment. Not happiness or sadness -- just contentment. There is a whole world of difference...I agree with you completely O0