Topic: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both

[FlwrChild]

Or was in fact the dream the reality, and the reality, the dream?

I mean: was not a life of pretending no more real than a dream?

I suppose for both of them their lives away from each other felt like the dream (or nightmare) and they only truly awoke in each other's presence.

[tpe]

Thomas, your observation is exactly what inspired me to pose this thread question. Jack the dreamer, all of us as dreamers, where does fantasy end and reality begin? "When you wish upon a star . . . ." 

By starting this thread, you have asked very deep questions, Jackster.  And I do feel that Proulx and Ang Lee were very much aware of them and tried to evoke them in the ss and the movie.

[tpe]

Japanese culture. It's always seemed to be so mysterious for me that I've never made effort to know this one just a little bit.
Shame on me.
Thanks for sharing.

Your "dream or reality" discussion forces me to stand up for them and the same for myself.

I wish always to see them living their reality up on the Brokeback Mountain, coming down to have their portions of misery in the bad dreams of isolation.

I suppose for both of them their lives away from each other felt like the dream (or nightmare) and they only truly awoke in each other's presence.

Thanks traveller and flwrchild.

I think this element of dream-reality is very much present in all of Buddhism, which considers all "reality" to be an illusion and that the dream in no more real than reality itself (and is sometimes more real, because we are lifted above the material world.)  I am sure that Ang Lee is very much steeped in this POV.

And YES: they awoke in the presence of the other! 

[jackster]

. . . .  I am sure that Ang Lee is very much steeped in this POV.

Boy, would this make for some interesting conversation with Ang Lee! To get a little insight into his initial reaction to reading both the SS and Screenplay (which do you suppose he read first?). And then garner some slight view of his thinking and interpretation about the Dozy Embrace, did the he connect it's dreamy quality with the Buddist experience, maybe even subconsciously? Ang is so shy and quiet it might take a very talented person to draw him out on this. Of course this what a truly wonderful followup or expanded Blu-Ray DVD would contain. I hope I live to see it some day. And how very sad that our transforming protagonist will not be here to contribute his interpretation also. 

[traveller]

I LOVE you recall the Buddhist beliefs because it reminds us of Ennis's and Jack's chance to overcome their karma! At the same time I am not sure if their untamed and "no reins on this one" love would fit to Buddhist calm

[tpe]

Boy, would this make for some interesting conversation with Ang Lee! To get a little insight into his initial reaction to reading both the SS and Screenplay (which do you suppose he read first?). And then garner some slight view of his thinking and interpretation about the Dozy Embrace, did the he connect it's dreamy quality with the Buddist experience, maybe even subconsciously? Ang is so shy and quiet it might take a very talented person to draw him out on this. Of course this what a truly wonderful followup or expanded Blu-Ray DVD would contain. I hope I live to see it some day. And how very sad that our transforming protagonist will not be here to contribute his interpretation also. 

Oh God -- even a commentary by Ang Lee would be priceless!  I wish that someday, he would write down the thoughts and motivations surrounding his work -- BBM, most of all, and the DE in particular.  I wouldn't be surprised if he does bring up something close to what we have been discussing here. 

I also think we have indeed missed the chance.  I don't think we will ever know much of Heath's thoughts about the creation of BBM.  But the remaining cast and crew can still shed some light into this -- especially in the important scenes such as the DE...

[tpe]

I LOVE you recall the Buddhist beliefs because it reminds us of Ennis's and Jack's chance to overcome their karma! At the same time I am not sure if their untamed and "no reins on this one" love would fit to Buddhist calm

You hit the nail on the head.  In other discussions, I have noted that you can possibly interpret the tragedy of BBM as a Buddhist moral on the illusionary nature of life and love. 

And IMO, you can make an interpretation of the DE and BBM itslef as some expression of what is commonly called "Karmic Retribution"  -- that it not about suffering but about realization, or the waking up from the dream of what we call "relaity".

[jackster]

. . .  BBM itself as some expression of what is commonly called "Karmic Retribution"  -- that it is not about suffering, but about realization, or the waking up from the dream of what we call "reality".

Thomas, I agree fully with your (and travellers) expression here.
What we're seeing here is the evolution (and growth) of a man.

[traveller]

Your posts interprating the DE and the BBM in terms of the Buddhist beliefs have been more revealing to me than I though reading them first time.
One of my worst concern after entering BBM world was the lost of my ability to be in my present. Thinking of BBM as of Karmic Retribution gives me chance to absorb its tragedy in terms of karmic "cause and effect" law which always brings hope and helps to find the sense. It is like looking for reasons of their lost happiness and believing in their evaluation.

[tpe]

Thomas, I agree fully with your (and travellers) expression here.
What we're seeing here is the evolution (and growth) of a man.

And like growth, it can be painful at times... 

[tpe]

Your posts interprating the DE and the BBM in terms of the Buddhist beliefs have been more revealing to me than I though reading them first time.
One of my worst concern after entering BBM world was the lost of my ability to be in my present. Thinking of BBM as of Karmic Retribution gives me chance to absorb its tragedy in terms of karmic "cause and effect" law which always brings hope and helps to find the sense. It is like looking for reasons of their lost happiness and believing in their evaluation.

Viewed from this vantage point, we can see the final scenes of BBM with a certain dispassion, which is to free oneself of pain.  (It approaches the Greek ideal of katharsis in this regard.)  To be sure, the "passionless" love in the DE is the mirror by which we want to remember both of them forever.

 

[athena0204]

Well when you truly love someone as much as Jack loved Ennis, time cannot do anything to the memories. I don't find anything odd about Jack remembering that moment so vividly. I believe there were many things and times about Ennis he remembered vividly over the years, the dozy embrace was just one of them and was shown in the story and the film because it happened at the time they had first fallen in love, at the beginning, when everything could have been just like that always. It is shown at their last meeting before Jack leaves this world because Jack is looking back at the past two decades, looking at how painful it's been to be apart from Ennis for most of the time, living only for those few times a year they could be together, looking back and regretting the time they'd lost and the sadness they'd been through, he remembered that summer when everything seemed possible, when he had so much hope of life being like this, always. It's no surprise he had such vivid memories of his time together with Ennis, true love is remarkable and extraordinary like that. I believe Ennis had his own memories of them being together too. In the last scene where he hugs the shirts, it feels like all the memories of two decades are flooding through his mind and he's overwhelmed with emotion and his immense and deep love for Jack.

[myprivatejack]

I think DE was somehow magnified in Jack's mind precisely for meaning such a great and cruel contrast between what they were living then and in the moment they had the LC.And I'd add between how they were living then and while Jack was remembering it; when they were in BBM,they felt free,in love,with all the strength to face the whole rest of the world,that,on the other side,was far away from them.After LC,on the contrary,they had finished all their strength,because the world,the society has won them and made them feel slave of their environment and,sometimes,of their own feelings-specially in Ennis case-.When the difference between what the moments we lived from illusions and hopes and the moments we lived from memories is so brutal,all of us tend to hang us on our old dreams,these hopes that have turned into bitter truths.And in the middle,there's always some fantasy we put on them,because we need to believe everything was better still than it was.Even if BBM moments were paradise on Earth for both of them... :\'(

[tpe]

The DE may have been the closest Jack ever got to the absolute feeling of contentment.  Not happiness or sadness -- just contentment.  There is a whole world of difference...

Thanks Athena and MPJ.

[hpv]

The DE may have been the closest Jack ever got to the absolute feeling of contentment.  Not happiness or sadness -- just contentment.  There is a whole world of difference...

I agree with you completely 

[tpe]

Thanks hpv!