Author Topic: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both  (Read 40106 times)

babytammy7

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #30 on: Mar 25, 2009, 09:42 AM »
Thanks friends.

I had wondered sometimes whether it would have been better for them to have ended their lives in the summer of 63.  

Jackster had noted whether DE was something like a dream.  But sometimes, I wonder whether it was their life after the summer of 63 that was a dream...


WOW, Thomas...You always leave me speechless. Little gorgeous post, that made me think a lot. Thank you!!  :^^)

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #31 on: Mar 25, 2009, 10:10 AM »
Thomas, that's such a good interpretation of the lives they led and how they might have viewed them. When you give up something so valuable to follow what you believe to be your duty, the life you choose can seem less real than the one that lives in your heart, especially if you have such beautiful memories to cement it.

I am reminded of a passage in a book I read last year where two people meet up after many years apart and one tells the other:

"Seeing you here is like waking from a twenty-year coma. You look around you and you find that your wife has left you, your children, whose childhood you totally missed out on, are grown men, some are married, your parents have died long ago, you have no friends, and that tiny face staring at you through goggles belongs to none other than your grandson, who's been brought along to welcome Gramps from his long sleep. Your face in the mirror is as white as Rip Van Winkle's. But here's the catch: you're still tweny years younger than those gathered around you, which is why I can be tweny-four in a second - I am twenty-four..."


He says then that he prefers to call it a parallel life because it sounds better. Jack and Ennis had to live parallel lives and in their case, they were teased occasionally along the way with little snippets of moments when they came out of their comas and back into the summer of '63.

I still haven't figured out which would be worse. To lose it all and wish for the rest of your life that you could have held onto it, but at the same time achieve some sort of closure which is in itself a form of healing? Or to be able to touch it at least now and then but thereby always have the wound exposed of knowing that that is all it can ever be? Either way, it is not at all surprising that a person would hold onto a golden memory like that as the symbol of all that the relationship meant/means to him. Because everything that comes after is really just an attempt to recapture that perfect moment in time.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline atalley

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #32 on: Mar 25, 2009, 03:53 PM »



          - maybe cowboy delmar wanted to do "it" standing up???,  like a quickie before he went off to the sheep.

holyfool...have you been smokin' the weed w/ Jack & Ennis?  LOL! ;D

Offline tpe

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #33 on: Mar 26, 2009, 07:39 AM »
I just want to share with you here an ongoing exchange about DE and the Last Confrontation in the Favorite Scenes thread.  It highlights the tight relationship between the two scenes -- and whether the DE was fact or fantasy, its emotional impact/significance in our understanding of the Last confrontation is very real:

Thanks Thomas...Thats there but they both r very much co related that I always see them 2 sides of the same coin..When Ennis breaks down in the FC and Jack comforts him, Jack is seeing where the relationship is going..So many years of pain and fears r showing up in the FC..In that moment of pain DE reminds him of one strong and emotional moment spend by both where no fears and pains were surrounding them but just true love..

Then again we see a look of Jack in FC watching Ennis leave..Jack standing there with the image of DE in his heart and the truth of FC in front of his eyes

Yes, they are different sides of the same coin.  And the contrast could not be greater. 

The interesting thing is that in the movie, we see Jack remembering this during Ennis's collapse in the Last Confrontation.  But in the short story, it seems to happen later, after Ennis had left.  Do you get the same impression? 

I think the movie's decision to embed the DE into the Last Confrontation increses the power of the latter and gives the DE more timely significance, by way of contrast.

If you don't mind.  I will also post this exchange in the thread about the DE...



Offline tpe

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #34 on: Mar 26, 2009, 07:58 AM »
WOW, Thomas...You always leave me speechless. Little gorgeous post, that made me think a lot. Thank you!!  :^^)

Thomas, that's such a good interpretation of the lives they led and how they might have viewed them. When you give up something so valuable to follow what you believe to be your duty, the life you choose can seem less real than the one that lives in your heart, especially if you have such beautiful memories to cement it.

I am reminded of a passage in a book I read last year where two people meet up after many years apart and one tells the other:

"Seeing you here is like waking from a twenty-year coma. You look around you and you find that your wife has left you, your children, whose childhood you totally missed out on, are grown men, some are married, your parents have died long ago, you have no friends, and that tiny face staring at you through goggles belongs to none other than your grandson, who's been brought along to welcome Gramps from his long sleep. Your face in the mirror is as white as Rip Van Winkle's. But here's the catch: you're still tweny years younger than those gathered around you, which is why I can be tweny-four in a second - I am twenty-four..."


He says then that he prefers to call it a parallel life because it sounds better. Jack and Ennis had to live parallel lives and in their case, they were teased occasionally along the way with little snippets of moments when they came out of their comas and back into the summer of '63.

I still haven't figured out which would be worse. To lose it all and wish for the rest of your life that you could have held onto it, but at the same time achieve some sort of closure which is in itself a form of healing? Or to be able to touch it at least now and then but thereby always have the wound exposed of knowing that that is all it can ever be? Either way, it is not at all surprising that a person would hold onto a golden memory like that as the symbol of all that the relationship meant/means to him. Because everything that comes after is really just an attempt to recapture that perfect moment in time.

Thanks Tammy and FlwrChild.

The notion of parallel lives does make sense, IMO.  I think that both of them drew from their remembrances of 63, and DE is the one supreme example.

I do feel at times that their "real" lives felt more like dreams.  I think especially of the scenes between Ennis and Alma and when Ennis was laying asphalt on the road.  One has a feeling sometimes that Ennis is dreaming -- although onecould say that it was one of those moments when we came out of the coma, as you say it.


Offline smartestsonia

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #35 on: Mar 26, 2009, 08:03 AM »
I just want to share with you here an ongoing exchange about DE and the Last Confrontation in the Favorite Scenes thread.  It highlights the tight relationship between the two scenes -- and whether the DE was fact or fantasy, its emotional impact/significance in our understanding of the Last confrontation is very real:

Thank you for adding our exchange in this topic Thomas. I have never posted here before and feel very happy that this topis is started by Jackster..

As to your question, in the SS I feel Jack got this DE impression when he watches Ennis leave..In the SS, Ennis breaks down and then is heading towards his car and Jack watches him leave....

In the film when Ennis breaks down Jack is comforting him and the next moment we see the DE..Well I feel that when DE is going on in the film (remembered by Jack) on the FC side Ennis is heading towards the car and Jack is watching him leave....Then when DE is over and they show a look of Jack watching Ennis leave in the FC, Ennis has taken the car to the end of the road by that time..

Well just an analysis.What do u think ?

Offline tpe

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #36 on: Mar 26, 2009, 08:09 AM »
Thank you for adding our exchange in this topic Thomas. I have never posted here before and feel very happy that this topis is started by Jackster..

As to your question, in the SS I feel Jack got this DE impression when he watches Ennis leave..In the SS, Ennis breaks down and then is heading towards his car and Jack watches him leave....

In the film when Ennis breaks down Jack is comforting him and the next moment we see the DE..Well I feel that when DE is going on in the film (remembered by Jack) on the FC side Ennis is heading towards the car and Jack is watching him leave....Then when DE is over and they show a look of Jack watching Ennis leave in the FC, Ennis has taken the car to the end of the road by that time..

Well just an analysis.What do u think ?

Yes, I agree with your analysis. 

I think that in the film, they intentionally embed DE in that scene.  I don't think this was really what the short story implied, but I think it was a wonderful choice.  It increases the intensity of the Last Confrontation so much at that critical point, and the meaning of the DE gets added significance.  Rather than just appearing like a remembrance after the fact, the DE is made to look like a dream.   It becomes much more than an incidental reaching out into distant memory.  Because of its placement in the Last Confrontation, we get the sense that it was very very real.

 


Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #37 on: Mar 26, 2009, 08:19 AM »
I agree with you both as to the timing of the DE. I think it's less specified in the SS but could easily be in that moment. Because we are able to visualize it in the movie (instead of reading it as a stand alone paragraph) it becomes intertwined as part of the FC scene.

And I think it's natural in that moment for Jack to pull out once again this treasured memory. At a time when their entire relationship had just been pulled out, confronted and then tucked away again, it makes perfect sense to me that this moment, as well as his rumination about how it fits in with all the rest, would be what came to Jack's mind.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #38 on: Mar 26, 2009, 11:14 AM »
I agree in that,meanwhile in S.S. the DE time is rather more ambiguous,in the movie it has a reason to be put in this moment and not in any other else...To watch this precious moment forever saved in Jack's mind and heart,precisely in the middle of the FC,is an almost violent cut that shows us how all the perfect love's dreams he had then,have broken down and turned into bitter complaints and,what's worst,the almost total renounce to their accomplishment.As a way to compare both situations for us,the viewers,or as a way to long for the lost hopes in Jack's eyes,it's absolutely meaningful and that's meaning reaches a dramatic point,precisely for this... :\'(
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #39 on: Mar 27, 2009, 08:15 AM »
You know, I woke up this morning with what I thought was a wonderful insight into this dream/reality discussion.  But just right now, I can't seem to remember what I wanted to say or to cite!   ;D

I'll try to remember it and post it as soon as it comes back to me...


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #40 on: Mar 27, 2009, 12:53 PM »
You know, I woke up this morning with what I thought was a wonderful insight into this dream/reality discussion.  But just right now, I can't seem to remember what I wanted to say or to cite!   ;D

I'll try to remember it and post it as soon as it comes back to me...
Don't worry,Thomas;you always know what to say or to cite¡.And I'm not foolin '¡  %(
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

vedrana

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #41 on: Mar 28, 2009, 03:45 PM »
I agree in that,meanwhile in S.S. the DE time is rather more ambiguous,in the movie it has a reason to be put in this moment and not in any other else...To watch this precious moment forever saved in Jack's mind and heart,precisely in the middle of the FC,is an almost violent cut that shows us how all the perfect love's dreams he had then,have broken down and turned into bitter complaints and,what's worst,the almost total renounce to their accomplishment.As a way to compare both situations for us,the viewers,or as a way to long for the lost hopes in Jack's eyes,it's absolutely meaningful and that's meaning reaches a dramatic point,precisely for this... :\'(

This is how I see DE too and I think that I've posted that, but maybe was one of the lost. Just to remind - for me DE is a very sad point in BBM coz it represents what they had and what they lost. The contract came from DE during FC is surely a killer point. From the peace to the ruffle, from the freedom to chains of fears, from the youth to the growth, from the chances to  bitterness, from the hope to disappointment, from happiness to sadness .... not to mention that the worst thing was more to come.... :\'(

Offline traveller

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #42 on: Mar 29, 2009, 04:39 PM »
You know, I woke up this morning with what I thought was a wonderful insight into this dream/reality discussion.  But just right now, I can't seem to remember what I wanted to say or to cite!   ;D

I'll try to remember it and post it as soon as it comes back to me...



That's a pity:-(

As my grandma used to say: it was probably because you looked through the window before putting down your insight (:)
The point is, we both should be in this camp.

Offline tpe

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #43 on: Mar 30, 2009, 08:41 AM »
You know, I did remember what I wanted to say.
:)

In Japanese aesthetics, there is a concept called yugen, which finds its most concrete manifestation in the Japanese Noh drama. 

Yugen can be thought of as an unveiling of something beautiful in half-light -- in a state frequently referred to as the boundary between dream and reality.  In such as state, beauty simply suggests itself, as something mysterious and elusive, and yet palpable and undeniable. 

Yugen tells us that you don't have to understand beauty completely in order to know it and feel that it is real.  As in the DE, the beauty is in its absolute power to evoke/suggest, rather than to state things emphatically in full light.

In other words, the most profound things are best "understood" in the half-light -- knowing that there are certiain things (such as love and beauty) that go beyond absolute human comprehension.





Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #44 on: Mar 30, 2009, 08:45 AM »
Thomas, that's a gorgeous philosophy and I love it! It fits absolutely perfectly with the Dozy Embrace.  :c)
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #45 on: Mar 30, 2009, 08:50 AM »
Thomas, that's a gorgeous philosophy and I love it! It fits absolutely perfectly with the Dozy Embrace.  :c)

Thanks FlwrChild.  I was gald that I remembered it over the weekend.  :) 

I had wondered sometimes before whether Ang Lee oandProulx were aware of it...


babytammy7

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #46 on: Mar 30, 2009, 09:00 AM »
You know, I did remember what I wanted to say.
:)

In Japanese aesthetics, there is a concept called yugen, which finds its most concrete manifestation in the Japanese Noh drama. 

Yugen can be thought of as an unveiling of something beautiful in half-light -- in a state frequently referred to as the boundary between dream and reality.  In such as state, beauty simply suggests itself, as something mysterious and elusive, and yet palpable and undeniable. 

Yugen tells us that you don't have to understand beauty completely in order to know it and feel that it is real.  As in the DE, the beauty is in its absolute power to evoke/suggest, rather than to state things emphatically in full light.

In other words, the most profound things are best "understood" in the half-light -- knowing that there are certiain things (such as love and beauty) that go beyond absolute human comprehension.


That was utterly beautiful, Thomas.  <^( <^( Love that idea: beauty simply suggests itself in a state as the boundary between dream and reality, elusive and yet palpable.  (t) (t) Awesome. And of course I agree with the last line: love, beauty and also hurt and suffering go beyond human comprehension. That's what I tried to explain in my posts in another thread.

Thank you so much.  :^^)

Offline tpe

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #47 on: Mar 30, 2009, 09:08 AM »
You're welcome, Tammy.  I was re-reading a favorite book the other day and somehow got a sense that the concept seemed all too familiar.  It hit me in the shower the next morning that the DE seemed to fit into it.


Offline jackster

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #48 on: Mar 30, 2009, 10:02 PM »
. . . Yugen can be thought of as an unveiling of something beautiful in half-light -- in a state frequently referred to as the boundary between dream and reality.  In such as state, beauty simply suggests itself, as something mysterious and elusive, and yet palpable and undeniable. . .

Yes thomas, I believe you have made a very appropriate analogy here, especially in regards to Annie's description of the scene:

. . . . that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come
up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some
shared and sexless hunger.

They had stood that way for a long time in front of the fire, its
burning tossing ruddy chunks of light, the shadow of their bodies a single
column against the rock. The minutes ticked by from the round watch in
Ennis's pocket, from the sticks in the fire settling into coals. Stars bit
through the wavy heat layers above the fire. . . .

She makes it perfectly clear that this is at least a twilight scene, if not darkness, illuminated only by the firelight (and their shared passion). Whether knowingly or not it seems she intended to convey the same concept of the border between a dream world and reality. You've made a wonderful insight here.

(You must have a very inspiring shower  ^-^ )
we get to drinkin' and talkin' an all

vedrana

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #49 on: Mar 31, 2009, 02:05 AM »
You know, I did remember what I wanted to say.
:)

In Japanese aesthetics, there is a concept called yugen, which finds its most concrete manifestation in the Japanese Noh drama. 

Yugen can be thought of as an unveiling of something beautiful in half-light -- in a state frequently referred to as the boundary between dream and reality.  In such as state, beauty simply suggests itself, as something mysterious and elusive, and yet palpable and undeniable. 

Yugen tells us that you don't have to understand beauty completely in order to know it and feel that it is real.  As in the DE, the beauty is in its absolute power to evoke/suggest, rather than to state things emphatically in full light.

In other words, the most profound things are best "understood" in the half-light -- knowing that there are certiain things (such as love and beauty) that go beyond absolute human comprehension.


Beautiful post, tpe!  ^f^

as much as we can apply it to DE, I'd say that it is applicable to the whole magic of BBM.

Offline tpe

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #50 on: Mar 31, 2009, 09:19 AM »
Beautiful post, tpe!  ^f^

as much as we can apply it to DE, I'd say that it is applicable to the whole magic of BBM.

Thanks loreen.  And you are right.  The dream-reality dichotomy shows itself throughout the story and the movie...


Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #51 on: Mar 31, 2009, 12:38 PM »
Especially since for them, the dream was what they found together on that mountain and the reality was the world they had to face when they came back down.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline traveller

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #52 on: Mar 31, 2009, 05:47 PM »
You know, I did remember what I wanted to say.
:)

In Japanese aesthetics, there is a concept called yugen, which finds its most concrete manifestation in the Japanese Noh drama. 

Yugen can be thought of as an unveiling of something beautiful in half-light -- in a state frequently referred to as the boundary between dream and reality.  In such as state, beauty simply suggests itself, as something mysterious and elusive, and yet palpable and undeniable. 

Yugen tells us that you don't have to understand beauty completely in order to know it and feel that it is real.  As in the DE, the beauty is in its absolute power to evoke/suggest, rather than to state things emphatically in full light.

In other words, the most profound things are best "understood" in the half-light -- knowing that there are certiain things (such as love and beauty) that go beyond absolute human comprehension.






Dear Thomas, it's absolutely beautiful and so encouraging insight that certainly applies not only to our wonderful BBM world ^f^
If I only could absorb this idea truly and deeply, it would help me to be a better person by confirming my belief in magical reality.

What is your favourite book you re-read on the evening before the "yugen morning"?
The point is, we both should be in this camp.

vedrana

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #53 on: Apr 01, 2009, 06:52 AM »
Especially since for them, the dream was what they found together on that mountain and the reality was the world they had to face when they came back down.

Moreover, coz through 20 years of their lives they never got to the stage of renewing that Brokeback dream and making it become the truth again, although that was the only thing that both dreamed of...  :(

So, the DE (a moment of a pure sexless love) become a soft pillow where Jack could lay down his head in the most excruciating moment... the moment when he was seeing Ennis of for the last time and facing the oncoming death... :(

Offline tpe

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #54 on: Apr 01, 2009, 08:45 AM »
Yes thomas, I believe you have made a very appropriate analogy here, especially in regards to Annie's description of the scene:

. . . . that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come
up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some
shared and sexless hunger.

They had stood that way for a long time in front of the fire, its
burning tossing ruddy chunks of light, the shadow of their bodies a single
column against the rock. The minutes ticked by from the round watch in
Ennis's pocket, from the sticks in the fire settling into coals. Stars bit
through the wavy heat layers above the fire. . . .

She makes it perfectly clear that this is at least a twilight scene, if not darkness, illuminated only by the firelight (and their shared passion). Whether knowingly or not it seems she intended to convey the same concept of the border between a dream world and reality. You've made a wonderful insight here.

(You must have a very inspiring shower  ^-^ )

How could I have missed your post, Jackster?!

You were right to suggest that the DE sort of belonged to a "dream category".  And I do think that Proulx wanted to suggest this borderland between dream and reality. :)


Offline tpe

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #55 on: Apr 01, 2009, 08:48 AM »
Especially since for them, the dream was what they found together on that mountain and the reality was the world they had to face when they came back down.

Or was in fact the dream the reality, and the reality, the dream?

I mean: was not a life of pretending no more real than a dream?


Offline tpe

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #56 on: Apr 01, 2009, 08:52 AM »
Dear Thomas, it's absolutely beautiful and so encouraging insight that certainly applies not only to our wonderful BBM world ^f^
If I only could absorb this idea truly and deeply, it would help me to be a better person by confirming my belief in magical reality.

What is your favourite book you re-read on the evening before the "yugen morning"?

Thanks traveller!  I think all of us strive for something like this all the time -- which is why the DE affects us the way it does... a magical reality.

The book is actually a wonderful catalogue to an exhibition at the LA County Museum of Art:  Miracles and Mischief: Noh and Kyogen Theater in Japan. 




http://www.lacma.org/art/exhibition/Past/noh/miracles.htm





Offline jackster

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #57 on: Apr 01, 2009, 10:02 AM »
Or was in fact the dream the reality, and the reality, the dream?
. . . was not a life of pretending no more real than a dream?


Thomas, your observation is exactly what inspired me to pose this thread question. Jack the dreamer, all of us as dreamers, where does fantasy end and reality begin? "When you wish upon a star . . . ." 
we get to drinkin' and talkin' an all

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #58 on: Apr 01, 2009, 05:13 PM »
Thanks traveller!  I think all of us strive for something like this all the time -- which is why the DE affects us the way it does... a magical reality.

The book is actually a wonderful catalogue to an exhibition at the LA County Museum of Art:  Miracles and Mischief: Noh and Kyogen Theater in Japan. 




http://www.lacma.org/art/exhibition/Past/noh/miracles.htm






Japanese culture. It's always seemed to be so mysterious for me that I've never made effort to know this one just a little bit.
Shame on me.
Thanks for sharing.
The point is, we both should be in this camp.

Offline traveller

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Re: Dozy Embrace – Fact, Fantasy, Both
« Reply #59 on: Apr 01, 2009, 06:34 PM »
Your "dream or reality" discussion forces me to stand up for them and the same for myself.

I wish always to see them living their reality up on the Brokeback Mountain, coming down to have their portions of misery in the bad dreams of isolation.
The point is, we both should be in this camp.