Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: Patriot1 on Aug 10, 2006, 05:35 PM
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Many people believe Brokeback Mountain is full of ambiguities. I have started this thread in the hopes you will tell us what you think in the movie is ambiguous and then we can discuss them to see if in fact they really are.
Who is first?
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All the issues surrounding the manner of Jack's death, whether the flashback is merely Ennis's imaginings or is what happened, and what Lureen knew or didn't as evidenced by the phone call and even, though I've not seen this raised anywhere, whethr Jack's parents bought the exploding tire story - all these are ambiguities.
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Whether or not Jack's parents - in particular his mum (mom) - knew that he was gay and knew who Ennis was to Jack.
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Thanks Patriot1 for starting this interesting discusssion.
Echoing ejr, I do think Ennis as a character is ambiguous, if not equiviocal. He is interesting in so many ways, and often times hard to read in certain scenes in the movie or sections in the short story. The last dream sequence in the ss is quite beautiful in its presentation of split meanings. I really think that dream ending is one of the most beautiful and heart-breaking parts of the ss.
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Aguirre's character is ambiguous too - was he a homophobic voyeuristic bigot who liked to have power over people, or just a hard-headed businesswman who didn't give a toss as long as he got all his sheep back safely from the mountain and made money as a result?Did he know/suspect anything about Jack after the previous summer or did this year's evnts crystallize his suspioions? Did he want to save money by bringing them off the mountain a month early, was he concerned for their safety or was he acting out of prejudice, spite or even jealousy after what he's seen?
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I think Ennis' character could be considered ambiguous.
1. Does he actually love Jack for 20 years and not realize it until after Jack is dead and its too late / or is Ennis, as it often seems, one of those selfish people who can simply take it or leave it as long as their need is met
- he enjoyed sex with Jack but was satisfied with one or two high altitude F's once or twice a year, seemingly unconcerned with Jack's needs, keeping him on a short leash. And when Jack wasn't around for the first 4 yrs Ennis could be satisfied just wringing it out thinking about him but not being bothered trying to find him, again did he love Jack or just want his need met.
2. Does he want to be a good husband and father / or again does he just think of himself.
- he enjoyed or was willing to put up with his life with Alma, his needs and wants were being met. He went away on his "fishing" trips a couple times a year, but never a vacation with Alma and the girls. Ennis didn't like Alma working extra but wouldn't try for better jobs himself, just low paying ranch jobs that he could quit when he wanted to head up to the mountains. Told Alma when she took on an extra shift that no one would be eating supper unless she was serving it. He gave up sex with Alma when she wanted him to use protection and he said no to that. He could take it or leave it or just wring it out, his need was met.
3. And talk about serving it, Cassie was putting it on a plate, but she had some problems he didn't want. So he could put the blocks to her if he felt the need or could leave her alone too.
4. He claimed to love his little girls but didn't try to see them much, after Alma confronts him, until they had the sense and years to get away from her. When Alma Jr. asks if she can come live with him, Oh he's not set up for that and sure isn't willing to try to get set up for it either. Might cramp his style. The court ordered support but don't ask anything else of him. Again concerned father or selfish loner.
I like Ennis and have compassion for him but there is more than one way to view the things he does.
Poor Ennis, let me defend him here. I think of Ennis as emotionally crippled. He has been raised believing that homosexuality is wrong, something that you can get killed for. Then all of the sudden he is thrust into this situation where he starts to have these feelings, feelings he's never had for anyone much less another man. Up on the mountain he can justify it, nobody knows what is going on. But once they come down he feels he has no choice in the matter. He can't pursue a life with Jack. It goes against everything he was taught as a child. So he does what he thinks he has to do, marries Alma and has children.He doesn't try to contact Jack because he is desperately trying to make those feelings go away. Of course his feelings for Jack never go away, they were too strong to be denied. I think he tried to be a good husband and father, but once Jack came back in the picture he was too torn emotionally to be able to give much to Alma or the girls. I think Ennis felt he had no other choice but to have a couple of high altitude f****ks once or twice a year. What else could he do. He cannot reconcile within himself that it would be OK to have a life with Jack. I don't think he was ever intentionally selfish. He was confused and torn up inside and in the end he let everyone down. To me this is the point of the movie that the hatred and intolerance Ennis was taught as a child destroys everything. It sure destroyed Ennis's chances of happiness. I don't think Ennis's character is ambiguous. Heartbreakingly sad maybe.
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camellia, I like your take on Ennis. Very nicely written. :)
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There's the whole ambiguity of Alma Jr's " Maybe Daddy's not the marryin' kind," too, which raises the question of whether she's saying this to get rid of Cassie or whether she knows about Ennis and is trying to warn her.
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I wonder if ambiguity is just another way of expressing conflict? Ennis is a conflicted man, as is Jack's dad, and Alma. They all have two sides to them and the sides war on a regular basis. Sometimes one side wins; at other times, the other side wins. I think that's why we can't pin them down unequivocally. Again, that's what makes this movie so interesting to talk about nine months after its release and well into the future.
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I wonder if ambiguity is just another way of expressing conflict? Ennis is a conflicted man, as is Jack's dad, and Alma. They all have two sides to them and the sides war on a regular basis. Sometimes one side wins; at other times, the other side wins. I think that's why we can't pin them down unequivocally. Again, that's what makes this movie so interesting to talk about nine months after its release and well into the future.
I do agree that in those instances when we can't seem to pin them down, the characters (particularly Ennis) are the most interesting...
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I think Ennis' character could be considered ambiguous.
1. Does he actually love Jack for 20 years and not realize it until after Jack is dead and its too late / or is Ennis, as it often seems, one of those selfish people who can simply take it or leave it as long as their need is met
- he enjoyed sex with Jack but was satisfied with one or two high altitude F's once or twice a year, seemingly unconcerned with Jack's needs, keeping him on a short leash. And when Jack wasn't around for the first 4 yrs Ennis could be satisfied just wringing it out thinking about him but not being bothered trying to find him, again did he love Jack or just want his need met.
Ok, I am about to do it again and will probably get 60 posts yelling at me again.
I think Ennis knew he loved Jack. I think Ennis knew he loved Jack as his best and only true friend. Someone he could deal with on a man to man basis, could talk to openly, for the first time in this life. I think Ennis loved Jack as two best buddies can love each other. I think Ennis loved that he not only could be satisfied with this man to man love and companionship but also loved the fact that he could have great sex with him away from prying eyes. Do I believe that Ennis was in love[/u] with Jack prior to finding the shirts, perhaps yes, perhaps no, but I do not think he knew he was in love, if he was at all, until he found the shirts. And, I think Diana's statement during an interview is more than sufficient proof of what I say.
Diana Ossana: "And then he goes up to Jack’s room and he finds his old shirt hanging tucked inside Jack’s, and he realizes how much that man loved him—how deeply he loved him from the get-go."
So it is Ossana, the woman who is telling a story based on a ss, A woman who should no what the story is about, that says Ennis never knew how much Jack loved him until Ennis finds the shirts. Up to that point Ennis just thinks they are two guys that have a very special bond and who can have sex together, but they ain't queer.
If you look at the movie through those eyes everything falls into place. Could you turn your lover away after he drove 14 hours to see you? I couldn't. But I could turn a friend away if I felt I needed to; especially when I wasn't expecting him. And when Jack says, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.", look at Ennis' face. He looks into the fire as if he was thinking, why would you miss me that much, and doesn't say anything. It makes sence if you accept that at this point Ennis doesn't know jack is in love with him. He just thinks they are best buddies.
As for Ennis and Jack's needs, I don't think he knew about Jack's needs. Jack was 'normal' and was getting sex at home from his wife. Jack told him so when they were at the river washing dishes. Remember, Jack said he wasn't queer so there was no reason to believe Jack had some special need that Ennis didn't have.
There isn't a selfish bone in Ennis' body. If there were, I am sure that one of the actors, screenwriters or Ang Lee would have said so or at the least hinted to it during some interview. They did not.
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All the issues surrounding the manner of Jack's death, whether the flashback is merely Ennis's imaginings or is what happened, and what Lureen knew or didn't as evidenced by the phone call and even, though I've not seen this raised anywhere, whethr Jack's parents bought the exploding tire story - all these are ambiguities.
Sorry, I don't see any ambiguity here either.
When you say "flashback" I assume you are talking about Jack's death scene and not the dozy embrace that others have referred to as the flashback scene. There is no ambiguity because Ang Lee said it was obvious Lureen was lying to Ennis. And if she was lying then he had to have been killed.
Also, the credits to the movie list Jack's murderers. The scene was just cut out.
What Lureen did or did not know when Ennis called is not ambiguous. First Ang Lee said it was obvious she was lying, second she wasn't reading it from the death certificate or police report. She was relating a story she made up in her head. Maybe the sheriff helped her make up a story, but that is pure speculation. What is not speculation or ambiguous is that she was not telling the truth. Lurene Twist knew exactly how here husband died and probably why he was murdered and that is why she made up the exploding tire story.
Her words and her little sounds during that telephone conversation told me that not only did she know Jack was murdered and why, but when Ennis told her Brokeback was where he and Jack herded sheep together, she then realized that Ennis was his first true love and not her and that was why Jack loved Brokeback. And we also have to remember that Jack wanted his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback, not half of them, but all of them and Lureen was the first person to defy Jack's wishes by burying half of them there in Texas.
And why did Lureen tell Ennis to contact Jack's parents about scattering the other half? Could it be because she now hated Ennis for being Jack's first and true love and that she already knew Jack's father was not going to scatter them but bury them in the family plot? Is that why she told Ennis to contact them in such a sarcastic way? Was she hoping Ennis would go up there and be crushed by Jack's father also?
There is no ambiguity in whether Jack's parents bought the tire exploding story because we never learned what they were told. Didn't matter to the story. But, I hope Lureen was a decent enough person to have told them half the truth, that Jack was murdered. But, we don't know what they were told so there is no ambiguity. All we do know is that Jack is dead and Mom Twist knew that Ennis del Mar was the love of Jack's life for 20 years and that she was sympathetic toward him and kind to him.
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Whether or not Jack's parents - in particular his mum (mom) - knew that he was gay and knew who Ennis was to Jack.
Oh NO, NO, NO!!!!! No ambiguity at all there. She knew who Ennis del Mar was and what he meant to Jack and that in Jack's room there was something Ennis would want to find and take.
There is an excellent thread about what Mom Twist knew. I hope you are up to reading all of it.
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=2458.0
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Thanks Patriot1 for starting this interesting discusssion.
Echoing ejr, I do think Ennis as a character is ambiguous, if not equiviocal. He is interesting in so many ways, and often times hard to read in certain scenes in the movie or sections in the short story. The last dream sequence in the ss is quite beautiful in its presentation of split meanings. I really think that dream ending is one of the most beautiful and heart-breaking parts of the ss.
I agree the dream scene from the ss is very nice although I wouldn't say it had split meanings. But this is a discussion of the movie and I did not find Ennis to be ambiguous at all. Frustrating yes but not ambiguous.
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Well, Patriot, I'm going to have to say that is a matter of opinion. For a few reasons.
First, as to the credits, you have to call the characters something whether they were part of an actual event or imagined one.
Second, as to any of Ang Lee's statements, we always have to be careful here. Because it's apocryphal (even if he is the director)and we should look as much as possible to the movie itself for our answers. Plus, even if we assume that Lureen was lying about some aspect of her story, we have no way of knowing how much or of knowing what the truth really is. For all we know, she could have been lying and what really happened is that he was abducted by aliens (ridiculous, I know, but it goes to point).
And finally, you ask good questions about Lureen's motives and feelings. I don't know but I tend to try to give her the benefit of the doubt. I guess I'm just an old softie. :)
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Alma's actions after witnessing the reunion kiss are ambiguous.
Was she really so naive that she just thought this was ' hello buddy long time no see '. Lord knows she never got a kiss like that.
Or did she realize that her total world would fall apart and she wouldn't be able to cope on her own with two little girls if she said anything. "She saw what she saw" . That look on her face was shock. She chose to close the door and say nothing for years. She never confronted Ennis until she felt secure with the Riverton grocer.
I don't see any ambiguity here either. She saw Jack and Ennis kissing. The look on her face told me she was not thinking this was a " ' hello buddy long time no see ' "kiss. But, she also did not know at that point that Ennis would be seeing Jack 2 times a year and would not be taking a vacation with her and the girls but would be taking it with Jack. When she finally did realize what was going on (the note in the tackle box) she knew she had to get away from Ennis but was not yet ready. So she started working extra shift to get closer to Monroe and start something there. Actually t was already started in Monroe's heart. When she was ready and knew she wouldn't be alone trying to raise the girls, she divorced Ennis. No ambiguity there. It is plain.
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Ok, I am about to do it again and will probably get 60 posts yelling at me again.
I think Ennis knew he loved Jack. I think Ennis knew he loved Jack as his best and only true friend. Someone he could deal with on a man to man basis, could talk to openly, for the first time in this life. I think Ennis loved Jack as two best buddies can love each other. I think Ennis loved that he not only could be satisfied with this man to man love and companionship but also loved the fact that he could have great sex with him away from prying eyes. Do I believe that Ennis was in love[/u] with Jack prior to finding the shirts, perhaps yes, perhaps no, but I do not think he knew he was in love, if he was at all, until he found the shirts. And, I think Diana's statement during an interview is more than sufficient proof of what I say.
Diana Ossana: "And then he goes up to Jack’s room and he finds his old shirt hanging tucked inside Jack’s, and he realizes how much that man loved him—how deeply he loved him from the get-go."
So it is Ossana, the woman who is telling a story based on a ss, A woman who should no what the story is about, that says Ennis never knew how much Jack loved him until Ennis finds the shirts. Up to that point Ennis just thinks they are two guys that have a very special bond and who can have sex together, but they ain't queer.
If you look at the movie through those eyes everything falls into place. Could you turn your lover away after he drove 14 hours to see you? I couldn't. But I could turn a friend away if I felt I needed to; especially when I wasn't expecting him. And when Jack says, "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it.", look at Ennis' face. He looks into the fire as if he was thinking, why would you miss me that much, and doesn't say anything. It makes sence if you accept that at this point Ennis doesn't know jack is in love with him. He just thinks they are best buddies.
As for Ennis and Jack's needs, I don't think he knew about Jack's needs. Jack was 'normal' and was getting sex at home from his wife. Jack told him so when they were at the river washing dishes. Remember, Jack said he wasn't queer so there was no reason to believe Jack had some special need that Ennis didn't have.
There isn't a selfish bone in Ennis' body. If there were, I am sure that one of the actors, screenwriters or Ang Lee would have said so or at the least hinted to it during some interview. They did not.
I know you won't believe this, but I agree with you on this post. I have always felt that "being in love" was different to Jack and to Ennis. Jack longed for Ennis -- wanted to live with him, work with him, be with him forever. Nothing ambiguous about that. However, Ennis, did not want the same thing. I do not mean to belittle what he feels for Jack, because I think this kind of friendship is beautiful and fulfilling in itself. The ambiguity comes in when you consider that two people in a relationship do not feel the same thing. It has often been observed that in any relationship one always loves MORE than the other. ( I subscribe to that, myself.)
Now, my big question is: What is the difference between "loving" someone and "Being in love" with them? This question could be a thread all by itself. I am sure we have as many opinions about this as there are members of this forum. I have often wondered about this distinction and whether there really is one.
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I know I'm really stretching a point for this one but even John C. Twist's actions could be ambiguous.
Is he really the hard nosed SOB we are led to believe or, does he refuse to let Ennis scatter Jack's cremains on Brokeback because even though he couldn't show or verbalize it he did truly love his son, a father's love. Now he realizes if he lets Ennis do this, the only physical remains of his son will be gone. This may be his futile attempt to keep "Family" together for eternity in the "Family Plot". Although Jack told Ennis there was no way to please his old man there was a strong bond there and this is shown in the fact that Jack returned home a couple times a year to help him "fix gates (symbolic for mend fences with his father) and mow and all". He may not have told Jack his rodeo secrets or watched him ride but he did put him on the woolies when he was a little kid, starting a lifelong mutual intrest between father and son. Or he may have refused Ennis because he sees a last chance to do something for Jack himself, afterall he says "I know where Brokeback Mountain is". Although he says this angrily his type of person would never let their softer side show fearing that it would be taken as weakness.
A hard hearted father may be explained more in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE6AxKZRZjc
ejr, there was a thread about John Twist that was excellent. In fact, there were two threads and the were combined (merged) and now I can not find it. But in there I expressed some of the very thoughts you do here. I just do not believe John Twist was all that bad. And I believed he did love his son even if he didn't know how to show it.
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There's the whole ambiguity of Alma Jr's " Maybe Daddy's not the marryin' kind," too, which raises the question of whether she's saying this to get rid of Cassie or whether she knows about Ennis and is trying to warn her.
Gads! We are bring up things from great old threads that I can not now find for some reason.
Alma Jr. suspected something was going on with him and Jack. I believe the consensus was that there was no ambiguity in what she was saying to Cassie. She did not want to see here father in another relationship that was going to fail.
As it turned out, Ennis saw it couldn't work either so he ended it.
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OKay, time to clear my mind ;D
Jack's death-He could of been murdered or he could of died in an accident. Laureen did indeed sound cold (movie, and in SS its mentioned) I'm about 60/40 on this, in favor of murder. I, i can't think about it too much :\'(
"You May be a sinner but i ain't yet had an opportunity"-My favorite Ennis quote (next to 'Jack, I swear' and 'Well, why don't you') I think Ennis is saying that obviously he is a virgin (he hasn't sinned yet) but also he could be pointing at homosexuality. (I havn't slept with a guy yet, so i'm sin free) I think its the first idea about him being a virgin.
Jack's Mother particitpation-Okay, this might be long. Did she know Jack was gay, IMO Yes. Did she know Jack had the two shirts? IMO NO. I think she wanted Ennis to go into the Jack's room as a sweet reminder **CRIES** god this is too much for me....
I noticed her reaction to Ennis when he brings the shirts back down is almost like she knew, but i think with her nod of "okay" i think she ment "Okay, i know he was special to you, and you want something to remember him by" thats just me, though.
Jack quiting Ennis- i think Jack was going to move on without Ennis, :\'( god this is too much, damn you whoever made this ;D I think Jack might of went to see Ennis in November, but he was going back to Randell anyway. Randell was a moderate replacement for a man Jack loved dearly (Ennis, duh) and though Jack would still go on the fishing trips with Ennis, he wouldn't be there mentally. Ennis denying Jack's feelings probably tore him limb from limb, sure he would try to act like 'happy jack' but IMO he would only being thinking about what they could of had, and not what they still had (if Jack hadn't of died) DAMN YOU ORIGINAL POSTER!!!!! **CRIES**
WAS ENNIS GAY? -I think Ennis wasn't a very sexual man growing up. His strict father probably would beat it out of him as a young boy. Ennis probably showed early signs of homosexuality (whether it be cross dressing, or playing with barbies, etc.) and he was beaten till he stopped. He grew up with his head permnently bent down, fearing any kind of sexual advancement made by anyone, male or female. I think Ennis was closeted, but his homosexuality wasn't concious in his mind, if any of you get what I'm saying.
Jack a Virgin- was Jack a virgin when he met Ennis? IMO no ;D
ENNIS AND JACK:LOVE OR LUST?- i pity the fool who thinks it is lust, its love, Ennis cries over his dead LOVER. Jack wanted to move in with his LOVER. Ennis and Jack were LOVERS. Not only did they have vicious Animal sex, but they also talked like best friends (BF that sleep together, thats what they are IMO)
i think thats it :8
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Well, Patriot, I'm going to have to say that is a matter of opinion. For a few reasons.
First, as to the credits, you have to call the characters something whether they were part of an actual event or imagined one.
Second, as to any of Ang Lee's statements, we always have to be careful here. Because it's apocryphal (even if he is the director)and we should look as much as possible to the movie itself for our answers. Plus, even if we assume that Lureen was lying about some aspect of her story, we have no way of knowing how much or of knowing what the truth really is. For all we know, she could have been lying and what really happened is that he was abducted by aliens (ridiculous, I know, but it goes to point).
And finally, you ask good questions about Lureen's motives and feelings. I don't know but I tend to try to give her the benefit of the doubt. I guess I'm just an old softie. :)
We all know there was a scene cut from the movie because Ang Lee couldn't find a place to put it where it wouldn't disrupt the story. We also know it was the scene where Jack outs himself to the garage mechanics who eventually kill him. If that scene had been left in there would be no doubt Jack was murdered. Instead, Ang Lee chose to make Lureen talk to Ennis in such a way as to let us know she is not telling the truth. He also chose to put in Jacks death scene. There is no indication in the movie if this is Lureen thinking of how Jack died or if it is Ennis imagining how Jack died or if, it is in fact how Jack died.
As for going to the movie itself for our answers, the director is the visual story teller. What is in the movie he visualized, shot and put into the finished product. If he says she lied then she lied and that is what he was trying to show. Now I will agree a lesser director may not always be able to show what he wants to come across but I would never put Ang Lee into that category. He is brilliant. He says she is lying, When I saw the movie (before hearing him) I took it she was lying (for numerous reasons).
No FlwrChild, I don't think aliens were involved. We didn't see any saucers anywhere. :8
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I know you won't believe this, but I agree with you on this post. I have always felt that "being in love" was different to Jack and to Ennis. Jack longed for Ennis -- wanted to live with him, work with him, be with him forever. Nothing ambiguous about that. However, Ennis, did not want the same thing. I do not mean to belittle what he feels for Jack, because I think this kind of friendship is beautiful and fulfilling in itself. The ambiguity comes in when you consider that two people in a relationship do not feel the same thing. It has often been observed that in any relationship one always loves MORE than the other. ( I subscribe to that, myself.)
Now, my big question is: What is the difference between "loving" someone and "Being in love" with them? This question could be a thread all by itself. I am sure we have as many opinions about this as there are members of this forum. I have often wondered about this distinction and whether there really is one.
*Patriot1 faints* :8 :8 :8 :8 :8
Yes, there could be a separate thread for the meaning of being IN LOVE and loving someone. I believe there is a huge difference.
I could love you, maybe even to the point of putting my own life in danger for you but I surely do not want to live with you or have your baby. I am not in love with you.
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OKay, time to clear my mind ;D
Jack's death-He could of been murdered or he could of died in an accident. Laureen did indeed sound cold (movie, and in SS its mentioned) I'm about 60/40 on this, in favor of murder. I, i can't think about it too much :'(
"You May be a sinner but i ain't yet had an opportunity"-My favorite Ennis quote (next to 'Jack, I swear' and 'Well, why don't you') I think Ennis is saying that obviously he is a virgin (he hasn't sinned yet) but also he could be pointing at homosexuality. (I havn't slept with a guy yet, so i'm sin free) I think its the first idea about him being a virgin.
Jack's Mother particitpation-Okay, this might be long. Did she know Jack was gay, IMO Yes. Did she know Jack had the two shirts? IMO NO. I think she wanted Ennis to go into the Jack's room as a sweet reminder **CRIES** god this is too much for me....
I noticed her reaction to Ennis when he brings the shirts back down is almost like she knew, but i think with her nod of "okay" i think she ment "Okay, i know he was special to you, and you want something to remember him by" thats just me, though.
Jack quiting Ennis- i think Jack was going to move on without Ennis, :'( god this is too much, damn you whoever made this ;D I think Jack might of went to see Ennis in November, but he was going back to Randell anyway. Randell was a moderate replacement for a man Jack loved dearly (Ennis, duh) and though Jack would still go on the fishing trips with Ennis, he wouldn't be there mentally. Ennis denying Jack's feelings probably tore him limb from limb, sure he would try to act like 'happy jack' but IMO he would only being thinking about what they could of had, and not what they still had (if Jack hadn't of died) DAMN YOU ORIGINAL POSTER!!!!! **CRIES**
WAS ENNIS GAY? -I think Ennis wasn't a very sexual man growing up. His strict father probably would beat it out of him as a young boy. Ennis probably showed early signs of homosexuality (whether it be cross dressing, or playing with barbies, etc.) and he was beaten till he stopped. He grew up with his head permnently bent down, fearing any kind of sexual advancement made by anyone, male or female. I think Ennis was closeted, but his homosexuality wasn't concious in his mind, if any of you get what I'm saying.
Jack a Virgin- was Jack a virgin when he met Ennis? IMO no ;D
ENNIS AND JACK:LOVE OR LUST?- i pity the fool who thinks it is lust, its love, Ennis cries over his dead LOVER. Jack wanted to move in with his LOVER. Ennis and Jack were LOVERS. Not only did they have vicious Animal sex, but they also talked like best friends (BF that sleep together, thats what they are IMO)
i think thats it :8
As the original poster I am sorry I made you cry. *Patriot1 cuddles and soothes FulOfSadness.*[/b]
WOW! On some of these you sure did use your imagination!! :8 :8 :8
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OKay, time to clear my mind ;D
Jack's death-He could of been murdered or he could of died in an accident. Laureen did indeed sound cold (movie, and in SS its mentioned) I'm about 60/40 on this, in favor of murder. I, i can't think about it too much :'(
"You May be a sinner but i ain't yet had an opportunity"-My favorite Ennis quote (next to 'Jack, I swear' and 'Well, why don't you') I think Ennis is saying that obviously he is a virgin (he hasn't sinned yet) but also he could be pointing at homosexuality. (I havn't slept with a guy yet, so i'm sin free) I think its the first idea about him being a virgin.
Jack's Mother particitpation-Okay, this might be long. Did she know Jack was gay, IMO Yes. Did she know Jack had the two shirts? IMO NO. I think she wanted Ennis to go into the Jack's room as a sweet reminder **CRIES** god this is too much for me....
I noticed her reaction to Ennis when he brings the shirts back down is almost like she knew, but i think with her nod of "okay" i think she ment "Okay, i know he was special to you, and you want something to remember him by" thats just me, though.
Jack quiting Ennis- i think Jack was going to move on without Ennis, :'( god this is too much, damn you whoever made this ;D I think Jack might of went to see Ennis in November, but he was going back to Randell anyway. Randell was a moderate replacement for a man Jack loved dearly (Ennis, duh) and though Jack would still go on the fishing trips with Ennis, he wouldn't be there mentally. Ennis denying Jack's feelings probably tore him limb from limb, sure he would try to act like 'happy jack' but IMO he would only being thinking about what they could of had, and not what they still had (if Jack hadn't of died) DAMN YOU ORIGINAL POSTER!!!!! **CRIES**
WAS ENNIS GAY? -I think Ennis wasn't a very sexual man growing up. His strict father probably would beat it out of him as a young boy. Ennis probably showed early signs of homosexuality (whether it be cross dressing, or playing with barbies, etc.) and he was beaten till he stopped. He grew up with his head permnently bent down, fearing any kind of sexual advancement made by anyone, male or female. I think Ennis was closeted, but his homosexuality wasn't concious in his mind, if any of you get what I'm saying.
Jack a Virgin- was Jack a virgin when he met Ennis? IMO no ;D
ENNIS AND JACK:LOVE OR LUST?- i pity the fool who thinks it is lust, its love, Ennis cries over his dead LOVER. Jack wanted to move in with his LOVER. Ennis and Jack were LOVERS. Not only did they have vicious Animal sex, but they also talked like best friends (BF that sleep together, thats what they are IMO)
i think thats it :8
As the original poster I am sorry I made you cry. *Patriot1 cuddles and soothes FulOfSadness.*[/b]
WOW! On some of these you sure did use your imagination!! :8 :8 :8
WHat do you mean by that ^*) I thought this was my best post on ennisjack.com yet :-[
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FulOfSadness, I loved this post! And agreed with most of it. I can't bring myself to say that Jack gave up on Ennis - he would have been there in November and beyond (just my stubborn romantic). But I thought the rest was spot on. Don't know if Ennis had ever felt homosexual stirrings during his youth or not. But either way, the idea of it was certainly beat out of him (one way or another) by his father. Thanks for sharing. :)
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FulOfSadness, I loved this post! And agreed with most of it. I can't bring myself to say that Jack gave up on Ennis - he would have been there in November and beyond (just my stubborn romantic). But I thought the rest was spot on. Don't know if Ennis had ever felt homosexual stirrings during his youth or not. But either way, the idea of it was certainly beat out of him (one way or another) by his father. Thanks for sharing. :)
I feel appreciated! O0
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As the original poster I am sorry I made you cry. *Patriot1 cuddles and soothes FulOfSadness.*[/b]
WOW! On some of these you sure did use your imagination!! :8 :8 :8
What do you mean by that ^*) I thought this was my best post on ennisjack.com yet :-[
Do you see the little laughing men next to my sentence? That means it was a joke.
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I feel appreciated! O0
Oh sure, I cuddle and soothe you and I get an angry face. Geeezzz, see if I cuddle you again. :8
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I feel appreciated! O0
Oh sure, I cuddle and soothe you and I get an angry face. Geeezzz, see if I cuddle you again. :8
::) Anyway, i think Ennis was showing signs of being gay as a child and that is one reason why his dad made sure he saw the dead body of Earl, it makes sense, IMO. Imagine Ennis in a dress ^-^ weird (and thanks for the cuddles!)
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Whether or not Jack's parents - in particular his mum (mom) - knew that he was gay and knew who Ennis was to Jack.
Oh NO, NO, NO!!!!! No ambiguity at all there. She knew who Ennis del Mar was and what he meant to Jack and that in Jack's room there was something Ennis would want to find and take.
There is an excellent thread about what Mom Twist knew. I hope you are up to reading all of it.
http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=2458.0
Patriot1 - don't think I made myself totally clear there. I think Mrs Twist knew exactly who Ennis was and what he was to Jack, as well as knowing all about the shirts. I've read that thread you mentioned and posted in it to that effect. All I meant by mentioning this is that the movie perhaps doesn't make it completely clear for some people.
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::) Anyway, i think Ennis was showing signs of being gay as a child and that is one reason why his dad made sure he saw the dead body of Earl, it makes sense, IMO. Imagine Ennis in a dress ^-^ weird (and thanks for the cuddles!)
Interesting. Perhaps this was at the back of my mind when I saw this scene, but I never really made an explicit connection.
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Ang Lee read the screeen-play and perhaps the short story. Diana Ossana and Larry Mc Murtry read the short story before writing the screen-play. We've all read both. Annie Proulx wrote the ss and she is the only person who knows what was in her head - all everyone else has is what is printed on the page, first in the ss and later, which though based on the ss differs from it and is theinterpretation of two people working under specific constraints.
It is impossible to be certain of anything which is not in the ss, or, if one is discussing the movie, depicted on screen. All sortsof things are left deliberately ambiguous in the ss and there is therefore no right answers to any other questions raised in our minds and those of others who have seen the movie/read the story, either. We can all form opinions, though these have to be substantiated from what is there, or hypothesize, in which case the hypothesis must be at the very least consistent with what appears. Beyond that it is simply not possible to go with any certainty, nor can one interpretation be privileged over another. What Ang Lee thin ks is no more and no less valid than what any other reader thinks. None of us can read the mind of an author - we have what we are given and that's all.
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Ang Lee read the screeen-play and perhaps the short story. Diana Ossana and Larry Mc Murtry read the short story before writing the screen-play. We've all read both. Annie Proulx wrote the ss and she is the only person who knows what was in her head - all everyone else has is what is printed on the page, first in the ss and later, which though based on the ss differs from it and is theinterpretation of two people working under specific constraints.
It is impossible to be certain of anything which is not in the ss, or, if one is discussing the movie, depicted on screen. All sortsof things are left deliberately ambiguous in the ss and there is therefore no right answers to any other questions raised in our minds and those of others who have seen the movie/read the story, either. We can all form opinions, though these have to be substantiated from what is there, or hypothesize, in which case the hypothesis must be at the very least consistent with what appears. Beyond that it is simply not possible to go with any certainty, nor can one interpretation be privileged over another. What Ang Lee thin ks is no more and no less valid than what any other reader thinks. None of us can read the mind of an author - we have what we are given and that's all.
And I do think the author herself did not really map out everything. She certainly had very clear ideas about the charcters and the plot, but I think even she went only so far. She would be astounded (and perhaps not too pleased) by the way we dissect everything here in the manner of biblical commentaries, but she is realistic enough to know that the story has a life of its own, outside her original intentions.
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welshwitch, I agree with you.
The movie is made deliberately ambiguous as it appears and they are all subject to interpretations. Yes some of them have hints that help us interpret but some don't which we need to draw our own conclusion. It also depends on how deep one can go and dig all the info to solve the puzzles. For anyone who sees the movie for the first time, there will be more ambiguity than those who have seen many times. Or even after many times, there will be still ambiguity.
IMO, the beauty of BBM is that everyone can draw its own interpretation and conclusion based on the movie, the short story, the interviews with the cast and director. Each of them is equally weighted because we are all here to discuss this great movie.
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Agreed! Which is why, although I want a special edition dvd with extra features as much as anyone,I don't want the commentary to tell us too much about certain elements of the film because I wouldn't want to deprive people of their own interpretations. :)
I would love to hear about the film-making process though....and the way the actors felt about their characters....and the locations....and the filming conditions....sorry OT....I'm done. ::)
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::) Anyway, i think Ennis was showing signs of being gay as a child and that is one reason why his dad made sure he saw the dead body of Earl, it makes sense, IMO. Imagine Ennis in a dress ^-^ weird (and thanks for the cuddles!)
And do you also believe, as Ennis said, that because he was showing signs of being gay his father might have killed Earl just so he could show his son what happens to queers?
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Patriot1 - don't think I made myself totally clear there. I think Mrs Twist knew exactly who Ennis was and what he was to Jack, as well as knowing all about the shirts. I've read that thread you mentioned and posted in it to that effect. All I meant by mentioning this is that the movie perhaps doesn't make it completely clear for some people.
I suppose what you say could be true. But you know, if anyone saw this scene and did not realize Mom Twist knew who Ennis was, that she loved him for loving her son, that she knew Ennis' heart was breaking as much as hers and that she knew of the shirts and their significance, well, they should just stop going to the movies.
In very few words and through facial expressions and hand gestures this brilliant actress told me all those things, and more. Is it really possible there could be people who didn't get it? How sad if there are. :\'(
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Ang Lee read the screeen-play and perhaps the short story. Diana Ossana and Larry Mc Murtry read the short story before writing the screen-play. We've all read both. Annie Proulx wrote the ss and she is the only person who knows what was in her head - all everyone else has is what is printed on the page, first in the ss and later, which though based on the ss differs from it and is theinterpretation of two people working under specific constraints.
It is impossible to be certain of anything which is not in the ss, or, if one is discussing the movie, depicted on screen. All sortsof things are left deliberately ambiguous in the ss and there is therefore no right answers to any other questions raised in our minds and those of others who have seen the movie/read the story, either. We can all form opinions, though these have to be substantiated from what is there, or hypothesize, in which case the hypothesis must be at the very least consistent with what appears. Beyond that it is simply not possible to go with any certainty, nor can one interpretation be privileged over another. What Ang Lee thin ks is no more and no less valid than what any other reader thinks. None of us can read the mind of an author - we have what we are given and that's all.
I agree with practically everything you have said here. But, we have to remember this Forum, or this board "Characters, Quotes and Scenes" is about the movie. We can certainly use the ss as a reference to help support one position or another but the ss is secondary to the movie here. We all know that visual story tellers rarely stick to the story. Brokeback Mountain is one of those that stuck to it more than most. However, Annie Proulx said in and interview ( I can never find things when I want them!) that (and I am paraphrasing here) she never thought she would ever say this but she believed the movie outdid the author of the story. This told me that Ang Lee, and I suppose to an extent Larry and Diana, had seen Annie's story and told it in a much better way than she herself did. So, we do not have Ang Lee reading her story and trying to put her thought into a film, he embellished her thoughts. The movie is only based on the ss by Annie Proulx. It is not a literal interpretation of the ss and therefore what the author intended in her story is not necessarily what the visual story teller intended his story to be.
So, when the visual story teller, in this case Ang Lee, says a scene meant such and so, that is what it meant while we are discussing the movie. He is telling the story. If we go over to the board that discusses the ss, then it is what Annie Proulx says it is. She was telling the story.
We must learn to separate the two except where they mesh, and even then, we must be very careful.
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::) Anyway, i think Ennis was showing signs of being gay as a child and that is one reason why his dad made sure he saw the dead body of Earl, it makes sense, IMO. Imagine Ennis in a dress ^-^ weird (and thanks for the cuddles!)
And do you also believe, as Ennis said, that because he was showing signs of being gay his father might have killed Earl just so he could show his son what happens to queers?
I forgot that Ennis's dad probably killed Earl :-[ yeah i guess that makes perfect sense. I don't think he would go so far to kill his own son (ecspecially at such a young and encourgaeble age) so he killed another 'queer' to show what happens if yer gay
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Patriot1 - don't think I made myself totally clear there. I think Mrs Twist knew exactly who Ennis was and what he was to Jack, as well as knowing all about the shirts. I've read that thread you mentioned and posted in it to that effect. All I meant by mentioning this is that the movie perhaps doesn't make it completely clear for some people.
I agree, Mrs. Twist compassion and love is obvious, she knew who Ennis was to Jack, she knew about the shirts.
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::) Anyway, i think Ennis was showing signs of being gay as a child and that is one reason why his dad made sure he saw the dead body of Earl, it makes sense, IMO. Imagine Ennis in a dress ^-^ weird (and thanks for the cuddles!)
And do you also believe, as Ennis said, that because he was showing signs of being gay his father might have killed Earl just so he could show his son what happens to queers?
I forgot that Ennis's dad probably killed Earl :-[ yeah i guess that makes perfect sense. I don't think he would go so far to kill his own son (ecspecially at such a young and encourgaeble age) so he killed another 'queer' to show what happens if yer gay
My word!!!!!!!!!!!!! The thought of someone taking another person's life just so you can have an example to show your son is the most frightening thing I can think of.
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My feeling is that Ennis's father was a redneck with similar friends who would regard killing a queer as a means of cleaning up the area - wouldn't see it primariily as a means to frighten his sons. Showing them the body was just a (to him) happy by-product. Ennis clearly isn't sure that his father was involved but equally clealy thinks he's capable of it, and the flashback sequence doesn't give any clues as to his expression when he sees the body, or whether it's the first time he's seen it or is, as it were, coming back tothe scene of the crime.
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I just watched the ending again last night, and i've changed my mind, i think Jack's mom DID know about the shirts. I know to most of you it was obvious, but i needed another viewing (of course i later cried my eyes out at the ending, still having chest pains from this damn movie) Anyway, they way she looks, and almost smiles when Ennis shows her the shirts, it looks like she knew, so i think she knew about the shirts now :)
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I just watched the ending again last night, and i've changed my mind, i think Jack's mom DID know about the shirts. I know to most of you it was obvious, but i needed another viewing (of course i later cried my eyes out at the ending, still having chest pains from this damn movie) Anyway, they way she looks, and almost smiles when Ennis shows her the shirts, it looks like she knew, so i think she knew about the shirts now :)
I don't think it's obvious. Personally, I reached this conclusion onlt after the 3rd viewing in the theatre. I suspect most peopel who watched the movie once did not arrive at this conclusion.
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I just watched the ending again last night, and i've changed my mind, i think Jack's mom DID know about the shirts. I know to most of you it was obvious, but i needed another viewing (of course i later cried my eyes out at the ending, still having chest pains from this damn movie) Anyway, they way she looks, and almost smiles when Ennis shows her the shirts, it looks like she knew, so i think she knew about the shirts now :)
I don't think it's obvious. Personally, I reached this conclusion onlt after the 3rd viewing in the theatre. I suspect most peopel who watched the movie once did not arrive at this conclusion.
I am certainly glad I am not most people. There was only one reason she sent Ennis to Jack's room...the shirts. What, she wanted Ennis to see Jack's harmonica boxes on the shelf? ;D
By the way, did you take a survey to come to that conclusion?
Just picking on you TPE. :8
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I think I came away the first time I saw the m ovie with - as Heath said once - more questions than answers and without having noticed all sorts of things I saw later. I didn't altogether see the scene where Jack's mother sends Ennis to his room as anything other thanher assuming that he would like to see theplace his friends spent his time when he was young - people's rooms show so much about them. It didn't hit me till later that she must have known about the shirts, worked out at least part of their significance then realized theat Ennis was the one whom Jack had loved and who loved Jack.
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Thanks for suggesting this topic of discussion, Patriot1.
(And btw, congratulations on 2000 posts O0 )
For me, the fact that the story of Jack and ennis is not filmed as if everything were crystal clear, with unquestionable lines separating black from white, is what makes BBM stand out as close to real life. Every single character - Jack, Ennis, Lureen, Alma, the Twists Sr., Monroe - shows that one can take a lifetime to "define" his or her own personal identity.
I agree that Ennis's behaviour isn't so much ambiguous as human. He LOVES Jack, and yet hurts him. Nothing new under the sun.
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I just watched the ending again last night, and i've changed my mind, i think Jack's mom DID know about the shirts. I know to most of you it was obvious, but i needed another viewing (of course i later cried my eyes out at the ending, still having chest pains from this damn movie) Anyway, they way she looks, and almost smiles when Ennis shows her the shirts, it looks like she knew, so i think she knew about the shirts now :)
I don't think it's obvious. Personally, I reached this conclusion onlt after the 3rd viewing in the theatre. I suspect most peopel who watched the movie once did not arrive at this conclusion.
I am certainly glad I am not most people. There was only one reason she sent Ennis to Jack's room...the shirts. What, she wanted Ennis to see Jack's harmonica boxes on the shelf? ;D
By the way, did you take a survey to come to that conclusion?
Just picking on you TPE. :8
Interestingly enough, I did -- in the BBM discussion I helped lead in late May (see related thread). But the participants were more perceptive than the average theatregoer. ;)
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::) Anyway, i think Ennis was showing signs of being gay as a child and that is one reason why his dad made sure he saw the dead body of Earl, it makes sense, IMO. Imagine Ennis in a dress ^-^ weird (and thanks for the cuddles!)
And do you also believe, as Ennis said, that because he was showing signs of being gay his father might have killed Earl just so he could show his son what happens to queers?
I forgot that Ennis's dad probably killed Earl :-[ yeah i guess that makes perfect sense. I don't think he would go so far to kill his own son (ecspecially at such a young and encourgaeble age) so he killed another 'queer' to show what happens if yer gay
My word!!!!!!!!!!!!! The thought of someone taking another person's life just so you can have an example to show your son is the most frightening thing I can think of.
My feeling is that Ennis's father was a redneck with similar friends who would regard killing a queer as a means of cleaning up the area - wouldn't see it primariily as a means to frighten his sons. Showing them the body was just a (to him) happy by-product. Ennis clearly isn't sure that his father was involved but equally clealy thinks he's capable of it, and the flashback sequence doesn't give any clues as to his expression when he sees the body, or whether it's the first time he's seen it or is, as it were, coming back tothe scene of the crime.
I don't believe that Ennis' dad showed him Earl's body because Ennis showed signs of being gay. It was just the culture they lived in.
In the ss, when Ennis explains to Jack about the punch their last day on Brokeback, Ennis tells Jack about his father's advice to him when Ennis' older brother K.E. was constantly picking on Ennis. Ennis' father's advice was "you gotta take him unawares, don't say nothin to him, make him feel some pain, get out fast and keep doin it until he takes the message. NOTHING LIKE HURTIN SOMEBODY TO MAKE HIM HEAR GOOD."
Anyway, in the U.S. after the Civil War (1866) to about 1968 there were 4,700+ DOCUMENTED (documented as in newspaper stories) lynchings in 46 of the 50 United States. Estimates of non-documented lynchings run two or three times the documented ones.
Of those 4,700+ approximately 3,500+ were African Americans in the southern/cotten states (Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Florida, Louisiana, Texas). There is a book, "Without Sanctuary" written about African American lynchings (but not all the lynchings were African American). Most of the book consists of picture postcards made from photographs taken at lynchings and then MAILED to friends and relatives!!!!!
Lynchings were quite often a community affiar. People would often bring their children.
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My feeling is that Ennis's father was a redneck with similar friends who would regard killing a queer as a means of cleaning up the area - wouldn't see it primariily as a means to frighten his sons. Showing them the body was just a (to him) happy by-product. Ennis clearly isn't sure that his father was involved but equally clealy thinks he's capable of it, and the flashback sequence doesn't give any clues as to his expression when he sees the body, or whether it's the first time he's seen it or is, as it were, coming back tothe scene of the crime.
I don't believe that Ennis' dad showed him Earl's body because Ennis showed signs of being gay. It was just the culture they lived in.
In the ss, when Ennis explains to Jack about the punch their last day on Brokeback, Ennis tells Jack about his father's advice to him when Ennis' older brother K.E. was constantly picking on Ennis. Ennis' father's advice was "you gotta take him unawares, don't say nothin to him, make him feel some pain, get out fast and keep doin it until he takes the message. NOTHING LIKE HURTIN SOMEBODY TO MAKE HIM HEAR GOOD."
Anyway, in the U.S. after the Civil War (1866) to about 1968 there were 4,700+ DOCUMENTED (documented as in newspaper stories) lynchings in 46 of the 50 United States. Estimates of non-documented lynchings run two or three times the documented ones.
Of those 4,700+ approximately 3,500+ were African Americans in the southern/cotten states (Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Florida, Louisiana, Texas). There is a book, "Without Sanctuary" written about African American lynchings (but not all the lynchings were African American). Most of the book consists of picture postcards made from photographs taken at lynchings and then MAILED to friends and relatives!!!!!
Lynchings were quite often a community affiar. People would often bring their children.
jesseanne21, do you think that Ennis's father had a hand in the murder?
Documentation of hate crimes against gays and other "deviants" are probably less well documented, no?
There were sodomy laws that certainly equated gay activity to criminal activity. I know that in Chicago in the 20th century, most of the clandestine gay bars prior to the late 1960s were establishments run by the mob (the mafia). I am told that such was the case with the other large cities in the US. In any case, I am quite sure that police records contain reasonably well kept documentation concerning suspected individuals. But I would be a fool to assume that people did not sometimes take matters into their own hands, especially where organized crime is concerned.
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I'm pretty certain that there were areas where gay-bashing was thought less a crime than a moral imperative. Ennis's father evidently thinks it's a good moral lesson to show two school-age boys the mutilated dead bodyof a gay rancher. I wonder how much things have changed? Overtly of course they have but covertly?
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jesseanne21, do you think that Ennis's father had a hand in the murder?
Documentation of hate crimes against gays and other "deviants" are probably less well documented, no?
There were sodomy laws that certainly equated gay activity to criminal activity. I know that in Chicago in the 20th century, most of the clandestine gay bars prior to the late 1960s were establishments run by the mob (the mafia). I am told that such is the case with the other large cities in the US. In any case, I am quite sure that police records contain reasonably well kept documentation concerning suspected individuals. But I would be a fool to assume that people did not sometimes take matters into their own hands, especially where organized crime is concerned.
TPE, I think you're right that hate crimes against gays and other "deviants" were probably less well documented.
Also, as far as Ennis' father having a hand in Earl's murder, Ennis thought he might have, so that's good enough for me. However, he did not necessarily have to participate to find out about Earl's death and take his sons to show them the body. Bodies of lynching victims were typically left where they died as a lesson to others. In the 1940s-1950s, singer Billie Holiday performed a song in her shows called "Strange Fruit" which speaks about the bodies of dead African Americans that SHE HAD SEEN literally hanging from trees in the south as they toured for their show.
Just an FYI - The US Supreme Court Ruled that sodomy laws (i.e., homosexuality) was unconstitutional on June 26, 2003.
In Wyoming in the 1950s sodomy (between man/woman and/or man/man) was AGAINST THE LAW and punishable by fines and/or imprisonment. The Wyoming law against sodomy was repealed in 1977.
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jesseanne21, do you think that Ennis's father had a hand in the murder?
Documentation of hate crimes against gays and other "deviants" are probably less well documented, no?
There were sodomy laws that certainly equated gay activity to criminal activity. I know that in Chicago in the 20th century, most of the clandestine gay bars prior to the late 1960s were establishments run by the mob (the mafia). I am told that such is the case with the other large cities in the US. In any case, I am quite sure that police records contain reasonably well kept documentation concerning suspected individuals. But I would be a fool to assume that people did not sometimes take matters into their own hands, especially where organized crime is concerned.
TPE, I think you're right that hate crimes against gays and other "deviants" were probably less well documented.
Also, as far as Ennis' father having a hand in Earl's murder, Ennis thought he might have, so that's good enough for me. However, he did not necessarily have to participate to find out about Earl's death and take his sons to show them the body. Bodies of lynching victims were typically left where they died as a lesson to others. In the 1940s-1950s, singer Billie Holiday performed a song in her shows called "Strange Fruit" which speaks about the bodies of dead African Americans that SHE HAD SEEN literally hanging from trees in the south as they toured for their show.
Just an FYI - The US Supreme Court Ruled that sodomy laws (i.e., homosexuality) was unconstitutional on June 26, 2003.
In Wyoming in the 1950s sodomy (between man/woman and/or man/man) was AGAINST THE LAW and punishable by fines and/or imprisonment. The Wyoming law against sodomy was repealed in 1977.
Thanks jesseanne21. I admit that when I saw the quote you cited from the ss, the thought of Ennis's dad doing this appears much more plausible. I don't think I really considered it seriously before.
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Ennis's father is certainly part of the macho " violence is the first resort" culture that Ennis sometimes seems a part of, the same culture that tears him apart when he realises he's not the stereotypical macho straight man. It seems to me not improbable that in other circumstances Ennis could have been as violent as his father - perhaps it's just as well t hat he has only daighters ?
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Ennis's father is certainly part of the macho " violence is the first resort" culture that Ennis sometimes seems a part of, the same culture that tears him apart when he realises he's not the stereotypical macho straight man. It seems to me not improbable that in other circumstances Ennis could have been as violent as his father - perhaps it's just as well t hat he has only daighters ?
What an interesting point - how would Ennis have brought up a son?
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Ennis's father is certainly part of the macho " violence is the first resort" culture that Ennis sometimes seems a part of, the same culture that tears him apart when he realises he's not the stereotypical macho straight man. It seems to me not improbable that in other circumstances Ennis could have been as violent as his father - perhaps it's just as well t hat he has only daighters ?
What an interesting point - how would Ennis have brought up a son?
Yes, quite interesting. Would he have remained affectionate, but distant? Such was the case with his daughters...
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I'm pretty certain that there were areas where gay-bashing was thought less a crime than a moral imperative. Ennis's father evidently thinks it's a good moral lesson to show two school-age boys the mutilated dead bodyof a gay rancher. I wonder how much things have changed? Overtly of course they have but covertly?
Hi, Welshwitch - I was talking about BBM with some of my coworkers and one guy (he's a lawyer) said he thought Ennis' father's intention in showing the boys Earl's dead body was to show them they were safe and that the parents of the community were watching out for their children. It's a FATHER thing.
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Not the kind of fathers I know - or would want to know. Traumatising/terrifying your children seems to me an odd way of showing them that they're safe. I can see the general idea - show tham that daddy is there to drive away the monsters - but showing them the mangled remains seems to me a step too far.
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Not the kind of fathers I know - or would want to know. Traumatising/terrifying your children seems to me an odd way of showing them that they're safe. I can see the general idea - show tham that daddy is there to drive away the monsters - but showing them the mangled remains seems to me a step too far.
A very big step too far. Seeing Earl lying in the ditch, scarred Ennis for life.
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Not the kind of fathers I know - or would want to know. Traumatising/terrifying your children seems to me an odd way of showing them that they're safe. I can see the general idea - show tham that daddy is there to drive away the monsters - but showing them the mangled remains seems to me a step too far.
A very big step too far. Seeing Earl lying in the ditch, scarred Ennis for life.
Could it be akin to some morbid rite of passage? Seeing a corpse, and a brutally murdered one at that...
A lot of people do have a morbid fascination with death and sin. Perhaps this was mixed in with the moralizing element. Ambiguous, at best...
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It's also frightfully literal-minded. Being queer is a sin akin to murder, and perpetrators are best destroyed.This guy has been destroyed; if you act like him, the same will happen to you.
Comes out of a moralisitic culture that sets a fairly low value on life and a very high value on conformity with prevailing social mores.
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WOW, today was my first day of school, so i went to bed earlier. Well at 12:30 AM i woke up and i couldn't go back to sleep (I have to get up for school at 6:00 am!) anyways i was thinking about Brokeback, and i just lost it. I don't know if it was mixed feelings with my nervousness, but I literally cried all night, just thinking about that picture of Brokeback Mountain on Ennis's closet. Its so sad, because thats when they were young and happy, and they had no fear in the world. Here i go again crying. :\'( this movie has f***ed me up (sorry for the language, but really its appopriate this time) I couldn't stop crying, so i stayed up all night, not getting any sleep for school in the morning. Brokeback has ruined any chance of a normal living for me now :8 . I kinda like it, but god, i was so depressed last night, it was too overwhelming. In my signature, the lyrics from SOLITUDE, well, i cried at that part, when i tried to listen to music. Brokeback is too much fer me, it should be illegal for people as young as me to watch this film, because if it effects them even as half as it has done to me (i'm 16 yrs. old) than idk how'll they'll be okay to go on with school, and everything in between
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WOW, today was my first day of school, so i went to bed earlier. Well at 12:30 AM i woke up and i couldn't go back to sleep (I have to get up for school at 6:00 am!) anyways i was thinking about Brokeback, and i just lost it. I don't know if it was mixed feelings with my nervousness, but I literally cried all night, just thinking about that picture of Brokeback Mountain on Ennis's closet. Its so sad, because thats when they were young and happy, and they had no fear in the world. Here i go again crying. :\'( this movie has f***ed me up (sorry for the language, but really its appopriate this time) I couldn't stop crying, so i stayed up all night, not getting any sleep for school in the morning. Brokeback has ruined any chance of a normal living for me now :8 . I kinda like it, but god, i was so depressed last night, it was too overwhelming. In my signature, the lyrics from SOLITUDE, well, i cried at that part, when i tried to listen to music. Brokeback is too much fer me, it should be illegal for people as young as me to watch this film, because if it effects them even as half as it has done to me (i'm 16 yrs. old) than idk how'll they'll be okay to go on with school, and everything in between
Sometimes, I also can't make out whether I am happier or more sad, post-BBM. But whatever the ambivalence in our feelings for being totally consumed by this film and story, I think I know that we are a bit richer for the experience.
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I just realized i posted this in the wrong section
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Not really - it's actually in the right section, because it's all about ambiguity. Are we better off for reacting as we do, or would our lives be easier if we didn't feel so affected by the movie?
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Not really - it's actually in the right section, because it's all about ambiguity. Are we better off for reacting as we do, or would our lives be easier if we didn't feel so affected by the movie?
Good question, welshwitch.
I also find myself stymied, time and time again, when people ask me why I love BBM (the movie) so much. I can't sort out an answer, because the reasons run through too many different rivers for me to sum up. All the ambiguities that we love, how do you sort them out to "briefly" explain where the power of BBM comes from??
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Good question, welshwitch.
I also find myself stymied, time and time again, when people ask me why I love BBM (the movie) so much. I can't sort out an answer, because the reasons run through too many different rivers for me to sum up. All the ambiguities that we love, how do you sort them out to "briefly" explain where the power of BBM comes from??
I agree. I hit upon the same problem myself. A lot of people who have seen the movie once seem to have missed a lot of the subtleties and hence are not comfortable with the ambiguities. A typical reaction I encounter is that the movie/story is ill-formed or an incomplete torso at best. I find this typical of the summer blockbuster crowd who likes their endings tied up neatly...
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BBM is too quiet, mostly, and too slow-moving, on the surface at least, to appeal to the multiplex blockbuster crowd - not enolugh CGI and noise and car-crash-type violence. It's subtle - the movement is often psychological not physical and the important issues aren;t speele out in fluorescent block capitals - there's also so much unspoken "dialogue" so that you have to listen and extrapolate - deduce too, as a lot of what happens is less than obvious.
It's the difference between fast food and Michelin-starred cooking, taking time to make and appreciate, complex and multi-layered.
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Good question, welshwitch.
I also find myself stymied, time and time again, when people ask me why I love BBM (the movie) so much. I can't sort out an answer, because the reasons run through too many different rivers for me to sum up. All the ambiguities that we love, how do you sort them out to "briefly" explain where the power of BBM comes from??
I agree. I hit upon the same problem myself. A lot of people who have seen the movie once seem to have missed a lot of the subtleties and hence are not comfortable with the ambiguities. A typical reaction I encounter is that the movie/story is ill-formed or an incomplete torso at best. I find this typical of the summer blockbuster crowd who likes their endings tied up neatly...
Welshwitch and TPE - I agree with you both...most people seem to like movies that they forget about as soon as they leave the theater. They want a neat, happy ending and real life just ain't like that. I love that thoughts about BBM wake me up in the middle of the night and scenes from the movie come back to me without any prompting. The movie haunts me...it's amazing.
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Welshwitch and TPE - I agree with you both...most people seem to like movies that they forget about as soon as they leave the theater. They want a neat, happy ending and real life just ain't like that. I love that thoughts about BBM wake me up in the middle of the night and scenes from the movie come back to me without any prompting. The movie haunts me...it's amazing.
Agreed! <^(
But try explaining why to the uninitiated in just a couple of sentences ... doubt it can be done. :-\\ We've LaShawned to the tune of close to a quarter million posts ... and still haven't said it all.
I get tongue-tied trying to answer the question "why BBM?" to non-brokies. It's easy with the CGI type films, as welshwitch says. People understand "Oh me like big bang explosion".
They don't always understand "I love that I have to really think hard and feel hard and could spend hours shifting through the layers of a single sentence to get at the richness beneath".
You get a cross-eyed reaction, usually, you say something like that to the average movie goer.
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Welshwitch and TPE - I agree with you both...most people seem to like movies that they forget about as soon as they leave the theater. They want a neat, happy ending and real life just ain't like that. I love that thoughts about BBM wake me up in the middle of the night and scenes from the movie come back to me without any prompting. The movie haunts me...it's amazing.
Yes, for me, the movies that are most memorable are those that are the most haunting. And those that haunt me are those that don't tie all the knots. It is like the space between dreaming and waking -- you do not question, and yet much remains unknown.