Topic: BBM Ambiguities - A discussion (possible spoilers)

[tpe]

Anyway, i think Ennis was showing signs of being gay as a child and that is one reason why his dad made sure he saw the dead body of Earl, it makes sense, IMO. Imagine Ennis in a dress weird (and thanks for the cuddles!)

Interesting.  Perhaps this was at the back of my mind when I saw this scene, but I never really made an explicit connection. 


 

[welshwitch]

Ang Lee read the screeen-play and perhaps the short story. Diana Ossana and Larry Mc Murtry read the short story before writing the screen-play. We've all read both. Annie Proulx wrote the ss and she is the only person who knows what was in her head - all everyone else has is what is printed on the page, first in the ss and later, which though based on the ss differs from it and is theinterpretation of two people working under specific constraints.

It is impossible to be certain of anything which is not in the ss, or, if one is discussing the movie, depicted on screen. All sortsof things are left deliberately ambiguous in the ss and there is therefore no right answers to any other questions raised in our minds and those of others who have seen the movie/read the story, either. We can all form opinions, though these have to be substantiated from what is there, or hypothesize, in which case the hypothesis must be at the very least consistent with what appears. Beyond that it is simply not possible to go with any certainty, nor can one interpretation be privileged over another. What Ang Lee thin ks is no more and no less valid than what any other reader thinks. None of us can read the mind of an author - we have what we are given and that's all.

[tpe]

Ang Lee read the screeen-play and perhaps the short story. Diana Ossana and Larry Mc Murtry read the short story before writing the screen-play. We've all read both. Annie Proulx wrote the ss and she is the only person who knows what was in her head - all everyone else has is what is printed on the page, first in the ss and later, which though based on the ss differs from it and is theinterpretation of two people working under specific constraints.

It is impossible to be certain of anything which is not in the ss, or, if one is discussing the movie, depicted on screen. All sortsof things are left deliberately ambiguous in the ss and there is therefore no right answers to any other questions raised in our minds and those of others who have seen the movie/read the story, either. We can all form opinions, though these have to be substantiated from what is there, or hypothesize, in which case the hypothesis must be at the very least consistent with what appears. Beyond that it is simply not possible to go with any certainty, nor can one interpretation be privileged over another. What Ang Lee thin ks is no more and no less valid than what any other reader thinks. None of us can read the mind of an author - we have what we are given and that's all.

And I do think the author herself did not really map out everything.  She certainly had very clear ideas about the charcters and the plot, but I think even she went only so far.  She would be astounded (and perhaps not too pleased) by the way we dissect everything here in the manner of biblical commentaries, but she is realistic enough to know that the story has a life of its own, outside her original intentions.

[ethan]

welshwitch, I agree with you.

The movie is made deliberately ambiguous as it appears and they are all subject to interpretations. Yes some of them have hints that help us interpret but some don't which we need to draw our own conclusion. It also depends on how deep one can go and dig all the info to solve the puzzles. For anyone who sees the movie for the first time, there will be more ambiguity than those who have seen many times. Or even after many times, there will be still ambiguity.

IMO, the beauty of BBM is that everyone can draw its own interpretation and conclusion based on the movie, the short story, the interviews with the cast and director. Each of them is equally weighted because we are all here to discuss this great movie.

[FlwrChild]

Agreed! Which is why, although I want a special edition dvd with extra features as much as anyone,I don't want the commentary to tell us too much about certain elements of the film because I wouldn't want to deprive people of their own interpretations.
I would love to hear about the film-making process though....and the way the actors felt about their characters....and the locations....and the filming conditions....sorry OT....I'm done.

[Patriot1]

  Anyway, i think Ennis was showing signs of being gay as a child and that is one reason why his dad made sure he saw the dead body of Earl, it makes sense, IMO. Imagine Ennis in a dress weird (and thanks for the cuddles!)

And do you also believe, as Ennis said, that because he was showing signs of being gay his father might have killed Earl just so he could show his son what happens to queers?

[Patriot1]

Patriot1 - don't think I made myself totally clear there. I think Mrs Twist knew exactly who Ennis was and what he was to Jack, as well as knowing all about the shirts. I've read that thread you mentioned and posted in it to that effect. All I meant by mentioning this is that the movie perhaps doesn't make it completely clear for some people.

I suppose what you say could be true. But you know, if anyone saw this scene and did not realize Mom Twist knew who Ennis was, that she loved him for loving her son, that she knew Ennis' heart was breaking as much as hers and that she knew of the shirts and their significance, well, they should just stop going to the movies.

In very few words and through facial expressions and hand gestures this brilliant actress told me all those things, and more. Is it really possible there could be people who didn't get it? How sad if there are.  :\'(

[Patriot1]

Ang Lee read the screeen-play and perhaps the short story. Diana Ossana and Larry Mc Murtry read the short story before writing the screen-play. We've all read both. Annie Proulx wrote the ss and she is the only person who knows what was in her head - all everyone else has is what is printed on the page, first in the ss and later, which though based on the ss differs from it and is theinterpretation of two people working under specific constraints.

It is impossible to be certain of anything which is not in the ss, or, if one is discussing the movie, depicted on screen. All sortsof things are left deliberately ambiguous in the ss and there is therefore no right answers to any other questions raised in our minds and those of others who have seen the movie/read the story, either. We can all form opinions, though these have to be substantiated from what is there, or hypothesize, in which case the hypothesis must be at the very least consistent with what appears. Beyond that it is simply not possible to go with any certainty, nor can one interpretation be privileged over another. What Ang Lee thin ks is no more and no less valid than what any other reader thinks. None of us can read the mind of an author - we have what we are given and that's all.

I agree with practically everything you have said here.  But, we have to remember this Forum, or this board "Characters, Quotes and Scenes" is about the movie. We can certainly use the ss as a reference to help support one position or another but the ss is secondary to the movie here. We all know that visual story tellers rarely stick to the story. Brokeback Mountain is one of those that stuck to it more than most.  However, Annie Proulx said in and interview ( I can never find things when I want them!) that (and I am paraphrasing here) she never thought she would ever say this but she believed the movie outdid the author of the story. This told me that Ang Lee, and I suppose to an extent Larry and Diana, had seen Annie's story and told it in a much better way than she herself did. So, we do not have Ang Lee reading her story and trying to put her thought into a film, he embellished her thoughts. The movie is only based on the ss by Annie Proulx. It is not a literal interpretation of the ss and therefore what the author intended in her story is not necessarily what the visual story teller intended his story to be.

So, when the visual story teller, in this case Ang Lee, says a scene meant such and so, that is what it meant while we are discussing the movie. He is telling the story.  If we go over to the board that discusses the ss, then it is what Annie Proulx says it is. She was telling the story.

We must learn to separate the two except where they mesh, and even then, we must be very careful.

[FulOfSadness]

  Anyway, i think Ennis was showing signs of being gay as a child and that is one reason why his dad made sure he saw the dead body of Earl, it makes sense, IMO. Imagine Ennis in a dress weird (and thanks for the cuddles!)

And do you also believe, as Ennis said, that because he was showing signs of being gay his father might have killed Earl just so he could show his son what happens to queers?

I forgot that Ennis's dad probably killed Earl :-[ yeah i guess that makes perfect sense. I don't think he would go so far to kill his own son (ecspecially at such a young and encourgaeble age) so he killed another 'queer' to show what happens if yer gay

[chameau]

Patriot1 - don't think I made myself totally clear there. I think Mrs Twist knew exactly who Ennis was and what he was to Jack, as well as knowing all about the shirts. I've read that thread you mentioned and posted in it to that effect. All I meant by mentioning this is that the movie perhaps doesn't make it completely clear for some people.

I agree, Mrs. Twist compassion and love is obvious, she knew who Ennis was to Jack, she knew about the shirts.

[Patriot1]

  Anyway, i think Ennis was showing signs of being gay as a child and that is one reason why his dad made sure he saw the dead body of Earl, it makes sense, IMO. Imagine Ennis in a dress weird (and thanks for the cuddles!)

And do you also believe, as Ennis said, that because he was showing signs of being gay his father might have killed Earl just so he could show his son what happens to queers?

I forgot that Ennis's dad probably killed Earl :-[ yeah i guess that makes perfect sense. I don't think he would go so far to kill his own son (ecspecially at such a young and encourgaeble age) so he killed another 'queer' to show what happens if yer gay

My word!!!!!!!!!!!!!  The thought of someone taking another person's life just so you can have an example to show your son is the most frightening thing I can think of.

[welshwitch]

My feeling is that Ennis's father was a redneck with similar friends who would regard killing a queer as a means of cleaning up the area - wouldn't see it primariily as a means to frighten his sons. Showing them the body was just a (to him) happy by-product. Ennis clearly isn't sure that his father was involved but equally clealy thinks he's capable of it, and the flashback sequence doesn't give any clues as to his expression when he sees the body, or whether it's the first time he's seen it or is, as it were, coming back tothe scene of the crime.

[FulOfSadness]

I just watched the ending again last night, and i've changed my mind, i think Jack's mom DID know about the shirts. I know to most of you it was obvious, but i needed another viewing (of course i later cried my eyes out at the ending, still having chest pains from this damn movie) Anyway, they way she looks, and almost smiles when Ennis shows her the shirts, it looks like she knew, so i think she knew about the shirts now

[tpe]

I just watched the ending again last night, and i've changed my mind, i think Jack's mom DID know about the shirts. I know to most of you it was obvious, but i needed another viewing (of course i later cried my eyes out at the ending, still having chest pains from this damn movie) Anyway, they way she looks, and almost smiles when Ennis shows her the shirts, it looks like she knew, so i think she knew about the shirts now

I don't think it's obvious.  Personally, I reached this conclusion onlt after the 3rd viewing in the theatre.  I suspect most peopel who watched the movie once did not arrive at this conclusion.

[Patriot1]

I just watched the ending again last night, and i've changed my mind, i think Jack's mom DID know about the shirts. I know to most of you it was obvious, but i needed another viewing (of course i later cried my eyes out at the ending, still having chest pains from this damn movie) Anyway, they way she looks, and almost smiles when Ennis shows her the shirts, it looks like she knew, so i think she knew about the shirts now

I don't think it's obvious.  Personally, I reached this conclusion onlt after the 3rd viewing in the theatre.  I suspect most peopel who watched the movie once did not arrive at this conclusion.

I am certainly glad I am not most people.  There was only one reason she sent Ennis to Jack's room...the shirts.  What, she wanted Ennis to see Jack's harmonica boxes on the shelf?   

By the way, did you take a survey to come to that conclusion?

Just picking on you TPE.   

[welshwitch]

I think I came away the first time I saw the m ovie with - as Heath said once - more questions than answers and without having noticed all sorts of things I saw later. I didn't altogether see the scene where Jack's mother sends Ennis to his room as anything other thanher assuming that he would like to see theplace his friends spent his time when he was young - people's rooms show so much about them. It didn't hit me till later that she must have known about the shirts, worked out at least part of their significance then realized theat Ennis was the one whom Jack had loved and who loved Jack.

[stephan]

Thanks for suggesting this topic of discussion, Patriot1.
(And btw, congratulations on 2000 posts  )

For me, the fact that the story of Jack and ennis is not filmed as if everything were crystal clear, with unquestionable lines separating black from white, is what makes BBM stand out as close to real life. Every single character - Jack, Ennis, Lureen, Alma, the Twists Sr., Monroe - shows that one can take a lifetime to "define" his or her own personal identity.

I agree that Ennis's behaviour isn't so much ambiguous as human. He LOVES Jack, and yet hurts him. Nothing new under the sun.

[tpe]

I just watched the ending again last night, and i've changed my mind, i think Jack's mom DID know about the shirts. I know to most of you it was obvious, but i needed another viewing (of course i later cried my eyes out at the ending, still having chest pains from this damn movie) Anyway, they way she looks, and almost smiles when Ennis shows her the shirts, it looks like she knew, so i think she knew about the shirts now

I don't think it's obvious.  Personally, I reached this conclusion onlt after the 3rd viewing in the theatre.  I suspect most peopel who watched the movie once did not arrive at this conclusion.

I am certainly glad I am not most people.  There was only one reason she sent Ennis to Jack's room...the shirts.  What, she wanted Ennis to see Jack's harmonica boxes on the shelf?   

By the way, did you take a survey to come to that conclusion?

Just picking on you TPE.   

Interestingly enough, I did -- in the BBM discussion I helped lead in late May (see related thread).  But the participants were more perceptive than the average theatregoer. 

[jesseanne21]

  Anyway, i think Ennis was showing signs of being gay as a child and that is one reason why his dad made sure he saw the dead body of Earl, it makes sense, IMO. Imagine Ennis in a dress weird (and thanks for the cuddles!)

And do you also believe, as Ennis said, that because he was showing signs of being gay his father might have killed Earl just so he could show his son what happens to queers?

I forgot that Ennis's dad probably killed Earl :-[ yeah i guess that makes perfect sense. I don't think he would go so far to kill his own son (ecspecially at such a young and encourgaeble age) so he killed another 'queer' to show what happens if yer gay

My word!!!!!!!!!!!!!  The thought of someone taking another person's life just so you can have an example to show your son is the most frightening thing I can think of.

My feeling is that Ennis's father was a redneck with similar friends who would regard killing a queer as a means of cleaning up the area - wouldn't see it primariily as a means to frighten his sons. Showing them the body was just a (to him) happy by-product. Ennis clearly isn't sure that his father was involved but equally clealy thinks he's capable of it, and the flashback sequence doesn't give any clues as to his expression when he sees the body, or whether it's the first time he's seen it or is, as it were, coming back tothe scene of the crime.

I don't believe that Ennis' dad showed him Earl's body because Ennis showed signs of being gay.  It was just the culture they lived in. 

In the ss, when Ennis explains to Jack about the punch their last day on Brokeback, Ennis tells Jack about his father's advice to him when Ennis' older brother K.E. was constantly picking on Ennis.  Ennis' father's advice was "you gotta take him unawares, don't say nothin to him, make him feel some pain, get out fast and keep doin it until he takes the message.  NOTHING LIKE HURTIN SOMEBODY TO MAKE HIM HEAR GOOD."

Anyway, in the U.S. after the Civil War (1866) to about 1968 there were 4,700+ DOCUMENTED (documented as in newspaper stories) lynchings in 46 of the 50 United States. Estimates of non-documented lynchings run two or three times the documented ones.

Of those 4,700+ approximately 3,500+ were African Americans in the southern/cotten states (Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Florida, Louisiana, Texas).  There is a book, "Without Sanctuary" written about African American lynchings (but not all the lynchings were African American).  Most of the book consists of picture postcards made from photographs taken at lynchings and then MAILED to friends and relatives!!!!! 

Lynchings were quite often a community affiar.  People would often bring their children. 

[tpe]

My feeling is that Ennis's father was a redneck with similar friends who would regard killing a queer as a means of cleaning up the area - wouldn't see it primariily as a means to frighten his sons. Showing them the body was just a (to him) happy by-product. Ennis clearly isn't sure that his father was involved but equally clealy thinks he's capable of it, and the flashback sequence doesn't give any clues as to his expression when he sees the body, or whether it's the first time he's seen it or is, as it were, coming back tothe scene of the crime.

I don't believe that Ennis' dad showed him Earl's body because Ennis showed signs of being gay.  It was just the culture they lived in. 

In the ss, when Ennis explains to Jack about the punch their last day on Brokeback, Ennis tells Jack about his father's advice to him when Ennis' older brother K.E. was constantly picking on Ennis.  Ennis' father's advice was "you gotta take him unawares, don't say nothin to him, make him feel some pain, get out fast and keep doin it until he takes the message.  NOTHING LIKE HURTIN SOMEBODY TO MAKE HIM HEAR GOOD."

Anyway, in the U.S. after the Civil War (1866) to about 1968 there were 4,700+ DOCUMENTED (documented as in newspaper stories) lynchings in 46 of the 50 United States. Estimates of non-documented lynchings run two or three times the documented ones.

Of those 4,700+ approximately 3,500+ were African Americans in the southern/cotten states (Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Florida, Louisiana, Texas).  There is a book, "Without Sanctuary" written about African American lynchings (but not all the lynchings were African American).  Most of the book consists of picture postcards made from photographs taken at lynchings and then MAILED to friends and relatives!!!!! 

Lynchings were quite often a community affiar.  People would often bring their children. 

jesseanne21, do you think that Ennis's father had a hand in the murder?

Documentation of hate crimes against gays and other "deviants" are probably less well documented, no? 

There were sodomy laws that certainly equated gay activity to criminal activity.  I know that in Chicago in the 20th century, most of the clandestine gay bars prior to the late 1960s were establishments run by the mob (the mafia).  I am told that such was the case with the other large cities in the US.  In any case, I am quite sure that police records contain reasonably well kept documentation concerning suspected individuals.  But I would be a fool to assume that people did not sometimes take matters into their own hands, especially where organized crime is concerned.

[welshwitch]

I'm pretty certain that there were areas where gay-bashing was thought less a crime than a moral imperative. Ennis's father evidently thinks it's a good moral lesson to show two school-age boys the mutilated dead bodyof a gay rancher. I wonder how much things have changed? Overtly of course they have but covertly?

[jesseanne21]

jesseanne21, do you think that Ennis's father had a hand in the murder?

Documentation of hate crimes against gays and other "deviants" are probably less well documented, no? 

There were sodomy laws that certainly equated gay activity to criminal activity.  I know that in Chicago in the 20th century, most of the clandestine gay bars prior to the late 1960s were establishments run by the mob (the mafia).  I am told that such is the case with the other large cities in the US.  In any case, I am quite sure that police records contain reasonably well kept documentation concerning suspected individuals.  But I would be a fool to assume that people did not sometimes take matters into their own hands, especially where organized crime is concerned.

TPE, I think you're right that hate crimes against gays and other "deviants" were probably less well documented. 

Also, as far as Ennis' father having a hand in Earl's murder, Ennis thought he might have, so that's good enough for me.  However, he did not necessarily  have to participate to find out about Earl's death  and take his sons to show them the body. Bodies of lynching victims were typically left where they died as a lesson to others.  In the 1940s-1950s, singer Billie Holiday performed a song in her shows called "Strange Fruit" which speaks about the bodies of dead African Americans that SHE HAD SEEN  literally hanging from trees in the south as they toured for their show.

Just an FYI -  The US Supreme Court Ruled that sodomy laws (i.e., homosexuality) was unconstitutional on June 26, 2003.

In Wyoming in the 1950s  sodomy (between man/woman and/or man/man) was AGAINST THE LAW and punishable by fines and/or imprisonment.  The Wyoming law against sodomy was repealed in 1977.

[tpe]

jesseanne21, do you think that Ennis's father had a hand in the murder?

Documentation of hate crimes against gays and other "deviants" are probably less well documented, no? 

There were sodomy laws that certainly equated gay activity to criminal activity.  I know that in Chicago in the 20th century, most of the clandestine gay bars prior to the late 1960s were establishments run by the mob (the mafia).  I am told that such is the case with the other large cities in the US.  In any case, I am quite sure that police records contain reasonably well kept documentation concerning suspected individuals.  But I would be a fool to assume that people did not sometimes take matters into their own hands, especially where organized crime is concerned.

TPE, I think you're right that hate crimes against gays and other "deviants" were probably less well documented. 

Also, as far as Ennis' father having a hand in Earl's murder, Ennis thought he might have, so that's good enough for me.  However, he did not necessarily  have to participate to find out about Earl's death  and take his sons to show them the body. Bodies of lynching victims were typically left where they died as a lesson to others.  In the 1940s-1950s, singer Billie Holiday performed a song in her shows called "Strange Fruit" which speaks about the bodies of dead African Americans that SHE HAD SEEN  literally hanging from trees in the south as they toured for their show.

Just an FYI -  The US Supreme Court Ruled that sodomy laws (i.e., homosexuality) was unconstitutional on June 26, 2003.

In Wyoming in the 1950s  sodomy (between man/woman and/or man/man) was AGAINST THE LAW and punishable by fines and/or imprisonment.  The Wyoming law against sodomy was repealed in 1977.

Thanks jesseanne21.  I admit that when I saw the quote you cited from the ss, the thought of Ennis's dad doing this appears much more plausible.  I don't think I really considered it seriously before.

[welshwitch]

Ennis's father is certainly part of the macho " violence is the first resort" culture that Ennis sometimes seems a part of, the same culture that tears him apart when he realises he's not the stereotypical macho straight man. It seems to me not improbable that in other circumstances Ennis could have been as violent as his father - perhaps it's just as well t hat he has only daighters ?

[WyMe]

Ennis's father is certainly part of the macho " violence is the first resort" culture that Ennis sometimes seems a part of, the same culture that tears him apart when he realises he's not the stereotypical macho straight man. It seems to me not improbable that in other circumstances Ennis could have been as violent as his father - perhaps it's just as well t hat he has only daighters ?


What an interesting point - how would Ennis have brought up a son?

[tpe]

Ennis's father is certainly part of the macho " violence is the first resort" culture that Ennis sometimes seems a part of, the same culture that tears him apart when he realises he's not the stereotypical macho straight man. It seems to me not improbable that in other circumstances Ennis could have been as violent as his father - perhaps it's just as well t hat he has only daighters ?


What an interesting point - how would Ennis have brought up a son?

Yes, quite interesting.  Would he have remained affectionate, but distant?  Such was the case with his daughters...

[jesseanne21]

I'm pretty certain that there were areas where gay-bashing was thought less a crime than a moral imperative. Ennis's father evidently thinks it's a good moral lesson to show two school-age boys the mutilated dead bodyof a gay rancher. I wonder how much things have changed? Overtly of course they have but covertly?

Hi, Welshwitch - I was talking about BBM with some of my coworkers and one guy (he's a lawyer) said he thought  Ennis' father's intention in showing the boys Earl's dead body was to show them they were safe and that the parents of the community were watching out for their children.  It's a FATHER thing.

[welshwitch]

Not the kind of fathers I know - or would want to know. Traumatising/terrifying your children seems to me an odd way of showing them that they're safe. I can see the general idea - show tham that daddy is there to drive away the monsters - but showing them the mangled remains seems to me a step too far.

[greenfrog]

Not the kind of fathers I know - or would want to know. Traumatising/terrifying your children seems to me an odd way of showing them that they're safe. I can see the general idea - show tham that daddy is there to drive away the monsters - but showing them the mangled remains seems to me a step too far.

A very big step too far. Seeing Earl lying in the ditch, scarred Ennis for life.

[tpe]

Not the kind of fathers I know - or would want to know. Traumatising/terrifying your children seems to me an odd way of showing them that they're safe. I can see the general idea - show tham that daddy is there to drive away the monsters - but showing them the mangled remains seems to me a step too far.

A very big step too far. Seeing Earl lying in the ditch, scarred Ennis for life.

Could it be akin to some morbid rite of passage?  Seeing a corpse, and a brutally murdered one at that...

A lot of people do have a morbid fascination with death and sin.  Perhaps this was mixed in with the moralizing element.  Ambiguous, at best...