Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: aintfoolin on Nov 26, 2006, 02:46 PM
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I found this older thread dated back to Jan/16/o6 but I thought it was worth rehashing. Besides , my laptop crapped out on me around that time. But the events following FNIT left me with a lot of questions. I guess I just love getting inside their heads and try picking their brains apart! Now Ennis rides off as if the demons of hell are after him and finds the dead sheep, but what baffles me is when Jack appears all of a sudden up in the hills where the sheep and Ennis are.When ? how? why? and what's behind this ? My take on it is that Jack wanted to know if Ennis was still "with him" after what had just transpired between them? He had a lot of nerve to go up there in search of answers from Ennis.
What was he thinking?
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I wondered if he thought that ennis might stay up with the sheep all night - he had the pup-tent to sleep in - and couldn't bear waiting to see if he showed up in their camp.Ennis had ridden away looking pretty grim that morning - he made no response to Jack's overtures so Jack may have worried that Ennis was full of regret, or even too embarrassed to face him - when he caught up with Ennis up on the mountain it was obvious that neither quite know how to behave.
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Poor Jack. He must have felt like crap after bein dissed like this. Not a word from Ennis. Just that....that...look. I can't even find the words to describe it. He only wanted to distance himself from Jack ASAP.I;m glad that Jack did'nt try to excuse the whole thing as some kind of dreadful mistake on his part to appease Ennis. The man had courage.
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Poor Jack. He must have felt like crap after bein dissed like this. Not a word from Ennis. Just that....that...look. I can't even find the words to describe it. He only wanted to distance himself from Jack ASAP.I;m glad that Jack did'nt try to excuse the whole thing as some kind of dreadful mistake on his part to appease Ennis. The man had courage.
I think that as hurt as Jack was, he could see that Ennis was clearly a bit shaken after what had happened the night before.
The expression on his face says it all.
(https://ennisjack.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh112%2FFroglet125%2Fbrokebackmtn_0908.jpg&hash=c40c8d4f410b91a6788dc07856f4965a9da5c529)
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I think both of them were pretty shaky the next day. But Jack certainly could not read Ennis that morning when he left, and wanted to assure himself on where things stood between them. Others would have been more reluctant to stage a confrontation so soon after. BUt with the two of them alone together, they really had no choice.
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Ennis is scared because he knows hom much desires Jack and that he will never let him go for the same reason! <^( <^( <^(
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I loved the quiet way that Jack allowed Ennis to express his feelings first once he got up there. And his "nobody's business" comment assured Ennis that he would'nt judge him. This I beleive played a part in Ennis finding the courage to partake in SNIT.
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I agree, aintfollin. When Jack said it was nobody's business but theirs, that freed Ennis. Otherwise, without those words, I don't know if Ennis would have come to the tent that night. He would have been too ashamed and scared. Jack released him of the fear of others finding out about them. I love this scene.
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I loved the quiet way that Jack allowed Ennis to express his feelings first once he got up there. And his "nobody's business" comment assured Ennis that he would'nt judge him. This I beleive played a part in Ennis finding the courage to partake in SNIT.
Agreed ^f^
Ennis need assurance that there was nothing wrong with what they had done the night before, and that nobody else had to know about it.
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Yes, I loved how Jack just stayed silent and gave Ennis a chance to breathe and express himself. I think Jack's presence was good. I assume that he went up to specifically be with Ennis, but having made this gesture, remained silent -- respecting Ennis's need to express himself in his own good time. I noted that it was Ennis who approached where Jack was sitting. I suppose Jack didn't want to be overtly intrusive, ot force the issue by confronting Ennis when he reached the place where the sheep were pastured.
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You're right, it was Ennis who approaced Jack. He obviously felt that Jack deserved some expaination for his behavior that morning. He must have also felt that he was dealing with someone who was'nt easily intimidated but who really cared enough and was courageous enough to want to be near him and get some answers.I think it was one of the qualities that he admired in Jack among many. It was probably what attracted Ennis to Jack. Jack possessed alot of qualities that Ennis wished he had in himself. In this mindset Ennis was able to inch his way slowly into accepting his feelings about Jack. Although he was caught off guard Jack showed him that he did'nt have to feel ashamed of anything that happened thus propelling Ennis to take the courageous steps into SNIT.
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I believe that Ennis was hit with love for Jack like a freight train and it startled him. Their second love scene was so sweet and tender. It sealed the eternal bond between them. Even later in the film, Ennis stated that "there's no reins on this." His love for Jack was a powerful force. And that is one of the things that makes "Brokeback Mountain" so heartwrenching for me. I do not know how Ennis denied himself the "sweet life" he could have had with Jack. And, yes, when Jack mentions that sweet life, it always brings me to tears. And I do not know how Ennis managed to live after Jack was gone. Could Ennis have wondered that Jack could have still been alive had they decided to make a life together? How does any human being "stand it?" :\'( Frankly, were I Ennis, I would have seriously considered taking my own life.
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Ennis didn't have to ask Jack why we was away from camp. He perfectly understood why Jack was there: Jack needed reassurance and a gesture from Ennis on how things stood between them. It was very brave of Jack to go up to be with Ennis at that moment, and I think Ennis approached Jack because he appreciated the initiative. They came to an understamding there and then. Much of waht traspired was left unsaid and ill-defined. That suited Ennis, and if it suited Ennis, it suited Jack. It did indeed pave the way for the SNIT. It was the ratification of the "contract" made in that quiet confrontation.
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I like the way you say this tpe. I totally agree about the silent "contract" between them. Even though at this point they are still feeling their way , it's understood that there's unpoken feelings there.
Then Ennis stating that he "aint queer" Immediately clues Jack in on what Ennis's fear is: That even though they have something " going on" he does want Jack to think of him as "queer" and whatever that means in Ennis's mind. Jack chimes in with" me neither" This sort of confused me though. I guess he said it to make Ennis more comfortable ? What's up with that? I wish this convers was a little longer. Wonder if they returned to camp together? Sigh...... so many unanswered questions.
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Sorry, I meant to say that Ennis DID'NT want Jack to think of him as gay. My mistake.
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I believe that Ennis was hit with love for Jack like a freight train and it startled him. Their second love scene was so sweet and tender. It sealed the eternal bond between them. Even later in the film, Ennis stated that "there's no reins on this." His love for Jack was a powerful force. And that is one of the things that makes "Brokeback Mountain" so heartwrenching for me. I do not know how Ennis denied himself the "sweet life" he could have had with Jack. And, yes, when Jack mentions that sweet life, it always brings me to tears. And I do not know how Ennis managed to live after Jack was gone. Could Ennis have wondered that Jack could have still been alive had they decided to make a life together? How does any human being "stand it?" :\'( Frankly, were I Ennis, I would have seriously considered taking my own life.
I think I need to go tissue hunting again after reading this. :\'( :\'( :\'(
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I like the way you say this tpe. I totally agree about the silent "contract" between them. Even though at this point they are still feeling their way , it's understood that there's unpoken feelings there.
Then Ennis stating that he "aint queer" Immediately clues Jack in on what Ennis's fear is: That even though they have something " going on" he does want Jack to think of him as "queer" and whatever that means in Ennis's mind. Jack chimes in with" me neither" This sort of confused me though. I guess he said it to make Ennis more comfortable ? What's up with that? I wish this convers was a little longer. Wonder if they returned to camp together? Sigh...... so many unanswered questions.
I also thought that Jack said "Me neither" to make Ennis more comfortable. I suspect though that had the conversation been longer, things would have unraveled and that might have said things that may make them have second thoughts. In real life, we let many uncomfortable things remain quite undefined/ambiguous, because we are afraid that if we try to define them a bit better, we would be too scared.
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This is the first day of a new life for both of them - a vertiginous prospect for Ennis at least, and perhaps not one easily put into words but better left unexplored for the moment.
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I see your point . Some moments are better left alone.Ennis was probably feeling so many things at this point l We now know what was meant by the "one shot" comment, that they did have someting " going on" ....something he liked. Alot. I love and admire Jack's patience in this instance and all through this affair. His ability to *sort Ennis out* and still maintain such wonderful patience is short of miraculous.This comment could have been taken in more than one way.But Jack waited.
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Well I was brought up in Brooklyn and always thought it was really sweet of Ennis not to blow Jack's head off the next morning. As in really really sweet. He even had the rifle, but when he put it in the saddle holster you knew it would be allright. If jack had screwed ENNIS it might have been a different story.
There were very few if any things which made teenaged buds want to kill each other more then getting completely blasted & humping each other blind when I grew up. So it really was nice of Ennis not to kill Jack, when he had the weapon at hand.
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Yeah, when I first saw this scene the possiblility crossed my mind too. He also had the rifle when he came upon Jack up by the sheep. I cringed , but we know now that it was the last thing on Ennis's mind. At that point he would have killed FOR Jack instead!
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Ennis would have never killed Jack, even after FNIT, even if the riffle was shoving there. He had feelings for Jack earlier, and he probably knew that it was gonna happen sooner or later, it was just matter of time. IMO.
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Well I was brought up in Brooklyn and always thought it was really sweet of Ennis not to blow Jack's head off the next morning. As in really really sweet. He even had the rifle, but when he put it in the saddle holster you knew it would be allright. If jack had screwed ENNIS it might have been a different story.
There were very few if any things which made teenaged buds want to kill each other more then getting completely blasted & humping each other blind when I grew up. So it really was nice of Ennis not to kill Jack, when he had the weapon at hand.
Yes, when Ennis handled the rifle, I was thinking as to whether he would do something foolish. This was probably intentional -- to heighten the viewer's tension.
I don't think that Ennis would have harmed Jack at that point. After all, he wasn't forced to do what he did in FNIT.
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I'm quite glad I don;t live in Brooklyn really - if people go round blowing one another's heads off! :)
Actually when Ennis shoved the gun down into the holder( or whatever it's called) I just thought it was a symbolic replay of his actions the night before - but that's what you get for seeing symbols, often the wrong sort, all over the place.
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I think Jack knew he could'nt afford to show Ennis any fear or guilt after FNIT but he had to feel a whirlwind of emotions. especially after Ennis appearred at first to be trying to run a little "guilt trip" on Jack befor hightailing it up to the sheep. He handled the whole situation with dignity and grace IMO. His casual "see you for supper" comment tells me that he wanted to make Ennis feel that everything was alright between them...Still.
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Actually when Ennis shoved the gun down into the holder( or whatever it's called) I just thought it was a symbolic replay of his actions the night before - but that's what you get for seeing symbols, often the wrong sort, all over the place.
What an interesting thought!
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You aren't wrong at all, the film is PACKED with symbols and the one you just described was meant to do just that---as well as 2 other things.
any guesses as to what the other 2 are?? lol
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Yeah, Hunger and an excellent dessert! ;) :d)
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lmaooooo
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I thought that they just fell over and went back to sleep at first but then I nticed that Jack was wearing his coat again the next morning so I take it that Jack got up some time during the night. Also It baffles me that the way Ennis is looking at Jack while he was still sleeping, it appears that Jack may be still nude from the waist down.Am I wrong? or maybe they did it more than once? Why else would Jack still be half nude but wearing his coat? :s) ??? :-\\
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Yes. It is likely that Jack still didn't have his pants on (or at least it was still undone). I suppose he put on his jacket sometime in the night because of the cold.
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He put it back on before leaving the tent because it was cold??
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So why would'nt he button his pants back? I think they did it more than once IMO. Another thing I noticed is that one tent tie is tied up during the night, but in the morning the ties are all undone when Ennis looks outside. ??? :s)
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So why would'nt he button his pants back? I think they did it more than once IMO. Another thing I noticed is that one tent tie is tied up during the night, but in the morning the ties are all undone when Ennis looks outside. ??? :s)
What an interesting thought: that they did it more than once. And why not? For Ennis, it must have been like he fell into a tub of honey -- one cannot help but taste the sweetness more than once.
Of course, this is speculation on my part.
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Hmmm. I don't think they did it more than once and I don't think that Jack's jeans are still undone when Ennis is looking at him in the morning. I'm convinced it's more just Ennis waking up, hungover, a bit blurry about what happened the night before, realising he's in the tent with Jack...and then the memory hitting him.
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I'm quite convinved that Ennis's first thoughts are "Oh, my God, what have I done?" All the rest comes later. He looks to me as if he's going up the mountain in a grim, non-communicative mood while he sorts out his reactions and emotions.
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Hmmm. I don't think they did it more than once and I don't think that Jack's jeans are still undone when Ennis is looking at him in the morning. I'm convinced it's more just Ennis waking up, hungover, a bit blurry about what happened the night before, realising he's in the tent with Jack...and then the memory hitting him.
This pretty much matches my original thoughts, except that I did think Jack's pants remained undone. But I did think that Ennis glanced at Jack primarily because the remembrance of the previous night hit him -- and the sight of Jack sleeping next to him confirmed it.
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I'm quite convinved that Ennis's first thoughts are "Oh, my God, what have I done?" All the rest comes later. He looks to me as if he's going up the mountain in a grim, non-communicative mood while he sorts out his reactions and emotions.
It's interesting that Ennis looks at Jack without horror or distaste the morning after. It was as if he was resigned to the act. As you said, all this seemed to come later.
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He seems almost disengaged from Jack, or maybe unwilling to do or say anything until he's worked out what to do and say. His thoughts appear to be focused on himself; he alsmost seems eager to get away from Jack as quickly as possible and with as little interaction as possible. Perhaps Jack would have been less inhibited. Though of course neither of them is really capable of much abstraction and therefore must find it difficult to talk about what they can't conceptualize. Part of the tragedy is that they lack words to such a huge extent.
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When it finally dawned on him what had happened during the night his first thought was " Did anyone see us? evidenced by the way he cautiously looked outside. Then it was outside to his horse to prepare to leave. During this time I beleive he was just thinking about how he felt about what'd happened. He seemed to be in a hurry but was'nt " running " either.I don't think he was prepared for Jack's "see you for supper" comment. And he was'nt about to stick around and discuss or be questioned about it in anyway. Not yet. I think he was thinking initially that Jack had sort of tricked him on some level. Of course this thought never held water because Jack never forced him to go all the way. He had the opportunitiy to leave the tent if he wanted to at any time. I also think HE LIKED IT! To his suprise he knew he liked it but just could'nt admit it to Jack verbally.Think he admmitted that . it was the part that he knew what it meant that he could'nt handle. MO
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Yes, Ennis didn't seem prepared to meetJack that morning, no? You could almost sense a shiver in Ennis when he departs...
The scene after the departure does intrigue me. Overall, Ennis looks morose and dejected -- feeling guilty, no doubt, and brooding over his own nature. But I imagine a hint of a smile at times -- as if to confirm that he did like it.
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No doubt he felt guilty, but I like your little reference to a smile when got a private moment to himself. With all the turmoil he felt inside I think he knew what it all meant. Through Jack he found out what true love really was. It;s just too bad he could'nt express it verbally but Jack knew it anyway.
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Well of course, Ennis had just cornholed another boy his own age--out of nowhere no matter what the feelings of attraction were between them. This was an enormous shock. He was very troubled by it and very ashamed--he had placed his penis in the rear end of a friend the likes of which he had never had in his life while that friend moaned "Ennis, please f*** me, please.' [ Play FNIT on the dvd--raise the volume up as high as it can go. Over on DCF one of the threads figured out to the second where it is, but it's better if you find and listen yourself, has quite an impact!]
You think that's not goin a affect a 19 year old Wyomin boy obsessed by bein a cowboy???
Especially having his bud LIKE it??? Ennis was ashamed and shocked and everything else.
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I have NO doubt that Ennis felt some degree of shock,shame and guilt. The look on his face showed alot of things at once but one thing I did'nt see was disgust. I can't really find the words to describe that look,(maybe I just don't wanna talk about it right away? I need some time?) We can tell by what transpired afterwards what he really felt at that time and that is Ennis really liked what he and Jack had done, and wanted to learn more about this side of his sexuality with Jack Twist. And he fell in love. :*(
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I have NO doubt that Ennis felt some degree of shock,shame and guilt. The look on his face showed alot of things at once but one thing I did'nt see was disgust. I can't really find the words to describe that look,(maybe I just don't wanna talk about it right away? I need some time?) We can tell by what transpired afterwards what he really felt at that time and that is Ennis really liked what he and Jack had done, and wanted to learn more about this side of his sexuality with Jack Twist. And he fell in love. :*(
Ditto!!
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I certainly think a sense of shame was inevitable -- shame at what he did and shame at not gurading the sheep that night as he was expected to do. The screenplay indicates that Ennis is filled with shame when he discovers the dead sheep that morning. I do suspect that for a person of Ennis's make-up, a sense of duty runs very strong.
Still, I still think that the primary thing on Ennis's mind was his own identity and his feeelings for Jack. Would he have changed his mind had he known beforehand that the flock would be under assault? I doubt that very much.
This brings me to a related scene -- the time when they were forced to seek shelter together during the hail storm. There are numerous antecedents in classical Greek and Roman literature of pastoral lovers seeking shelter in a grotto during a storm. BBM is indeed filled with subtle classical allusions. The morning after the FNIT indeed echoes similar ancient antecedents. But we find a similar echo in the hail storm episode. I don't doubt that during the hail storm, they spent the night making love. Of course, the day after, they are met with disaster when they realized that the sheep drifted during the night and got entangled with another flock. Again, a loss of face at a failure to do one's duty. And like the morning after the FNIT, I doubt that they had very much regret.
The parallelisms are beautifully conceived...
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I never saw disgust with Jack on Ennis' face. Shame, yes. Confusion yes. Definately shock and a terrible guilt. But disgust? The only glimmer of it was what I took to be SELF disgust at using his friend's rear end and it did not last more then a second; it was combined with his terrible sense of guilt. He felt so awful he couldn't even look at Jack. In true Ennis fashion he took the entire burden onto HIMSELF...
nope. No disgust with jack. No disgust for the sex. But disgust at himself for getting drunk and using Jack 's rear end, using him as if he was a girl, crossing 'the line'??? Yes, so long as you take it as part of his entire package of mental self abuse that day. IMO
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Yes, he was mentally punishing himself that morning. His upbringing demaned it. It was part of being Ennis to do this IMO, but not being able to look Jack in the eyes that morning was also part of his inability to admit that he loved it and in reality wanted more of it. Maybe he thought Jack was going to require him to talk about it, which is something Ennis was not ready to do in any way shape or form. not yet anyway. When Jack appeared up where he was tending the sheep, he'd had time to digest what had happened . He was definitly conflicted about being regarded by Jack as being "queer" which was the first thing out of his mouth once he faced Jack again. His "one shot deal" comment , I feel was just what he said and beleived at the time, still trying to define his feelings about what happened between him and Jack. When we see him sitting by the fire contemplatlng joining Jack in the tent he knew then that it went deeper than the rough sex he'd had in the FNIT. By then he had feelings for Jack that he could'nt control. Jack knew this all along and acted accordingly. Without words , they both understood what was transpiring in SNIT. They had, to their surprise, fallen in love with each other.So cool. :*( MHO
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I don't know if I would use the word disgust- I think it was like aintfoolin said- his upbringing was coming into play. I think he spent his life (Pre-BBM) trying to deny who he was (I'm assuming he had some inkling during his early teenaged years) and when he woke up the next morning he was at first confused as to whether or not it really had happened and then he realized that yes it did. To "run off" is an Ennis trait- look at him going off to be alone when he was told they had to come down from the mountain. He just needed his time to process everything. I do give him huge amounts of credit for not retreating into himself though- seeing that sheep was a reminder that he was not doing his job, yes but it was a reminder of Earl and that in itself was enough for him to just close in on himself. But he talked to Jack and we all know how the rest of the summer went- so again huge credit to Ennis for confronting his past enough to be able to admit that he loved Jack (maybe not verbally but...)
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That's the thing though: he never WAS able to say the words 'I Love You' to Jack. Not once. He was incapable of saying them even during the dozy embrace later that summer.
Ennis is deeper then any of us ever thought. On another Forum we have been debating this in threads devoted to damned near every aspect of the film, book and each character; it more or less ties together in that forum's relationship thread. I would love doing that here but almost every comment would put me OT. Part of the reason it's so good there is that there is a core group of about 15-20 posters who have taken apart their every character trait only to find...more. True, it was easier after we got help from Annie Proulx, the book's author, but even that opened up new avenues to agrue over and discuss. A Quit/No Quit debate there got so learned [and wacky at times] even Annie heard about it roflmaoooo.
There were gender gaps in the analysis too--a lot of the women who see Brokeback look on it the same as if it was a hetero romance when it wasn't. It was between 2 horndog working class ranch kids who were completely unequipped to handle what they had done. Some of the gay men denied every and anything which tied it to the usual heterosexual romance. Both approached with an open mind and have come together, it's pretty amazing when you look at how people have grown the last year, or 9 months or 3 months.
This book, and this film have to be considered seperately AND together, sort of as bookends. Each is unique and each is a masterpiece, one fills out the other and it doesn't much matter [imo] which you were exposed to first. There are only 4 or 5 posters on this thread and it suffers from that. The question is HUUUGE: What were they thinking? Movie Jack is pretty easy that morning. Movie Ennis is NOT.
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I never saw disgust with Jack on Ennis' face. Shame, yes. Confusion yes. Definately shock and a terrible guilt. But disgust? The only glimmer of it was what I took to be SELF disgust at using his friend's rear end and it did not last more then a second; it was combined with his terrible sense of guilt. He felt so awful he couldn't even look at Jack. In true Ennis fashion he took the entire burden onto HIMSELF...
nope. No disgust with jack. No disgust for the sex. But disgust at himself for getting drunk and using Jack 's rear end, using him as if he was a girl, crossing 'the line'??? Yes, so long as you take it as part of his entire package of mental self abuse that day. IMO
I think Ennis knew deep down that he loved it all.
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If there is something I sense the morning after, it is the fact that Jack must have had Ennis entirely on his mind. For Jack, I don't even think there was any sense of shame, although when he shivers naked by the stream while doing the laundry, there is an unmistalable sense of dread.
Make no mistake: Jack wanted it, and he was afraid to lose it.
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Ok here's my take on this. Well I'll start by saying that I agree that Ennis is very deep. Due to his upbringing he lacks the ability to be an "outgoing'i person, just not his personality to be that way. His childhood experiences have made his deameanor withdrawn, ashamed, guilt ridden,. and they may have been two 19 year old boys but they had to grow up fast . For all the turmoil in their younger years, I think they turned out pretty good. Him not being able to say "I love you" is tied to this IMO He will almost, always wait for the other person to take the initiative in that regard. Rejection, a fearful , constant companion. It's not an act beleive me. Second women have been feeling And dealing with the same issues Jack dealt with for centuries! The names have been changed to protect the innocent but the reaction ,actions,,,, is the same. Make no mistake, women UNDERSTAND Jack and the way he dealt with Ennis. In the context of feelings, It's easy for us to know how he felt.about this man because we've lived it, not to say men don't but mature,experienced women I beleive have an" inside track " on how Jack felt from his POV. It's built in our nature to do so .Maybe gay men on these forums feel the same about this and I respect them for it But as a woman, I can only see it from that POV. Trying to get a man like Ennis to commit himself after they've been taught (sometimes threatened, to hide so much , to be ashamed of so much is a ilong difficult process , a constant battle) Most would say communication is essential, something their relationship sorely lacked , but moving on , you said that gay guys on your forum stated that women only see it from a heterro POV . I can't pretend to know their life experiences but it seems to me the conclusions are the same. They are entitled to their opinions and I respect them fully as I hope they will do mine. We don't always have to agree on everything . We can agree to disagree too Jack was able to "read" Ennis more by his actions than words. This takes careful insightfullness and a strong awareness of the other person and Jack had this down, He KNEW Ennis but he also bothered to find the WHY of him too. This allowed Jack to understand better where Ennis was coming from though it made it no less painful. Finally, You say that this thread "suffers" from only 4-5 posters. I thought people posted on a particular thread cause it interests them in some fashion right? They post because they have something to contribute to the disscussion.? Happen to like the movie version over the SS, but to each his own eh? There are some very insightful people on this thred and I myself happen to love the intimate "living room with friends" flavor it has. I don't need to listen to 40 people talkin about the same f---kin thing on a thread. Some people do and that's fine with me if that's what you like .But I don't. My two cents .Peace to ya.
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Thoughtful and insightful post, aintfoolin'. I do think Jack understood Ennis, but I do not think he ever knew exactly what Ennis would say or do. He knew him well enought to accept whatever he gave him. He realized Ennis was not predictable -- mainly because Ennis did not know himself. That's where the main difference between these two guys comes in, IMO. Jack knew EXACTLY what he wanted -- Ennis. he would do anything he could think of to get him and keep him, but nothing really worked out for him. He could not convince Ennis to live with him. Ennis, on the other hand, didn't know exactly what he wanted, or he wanted too many things. You can't have it all. He could have Jack, that's for sure, but then he would have had to give up his daughters. Ennis wasn't willing to do that. Did he maybe use them as his excuse to not live with Jack-- to not capitulate entirely to Jack? I sometimes think that is the case..
Jack is such a forceful character. Ennis, though, wanted Jack and wanted his family, too. Also, I think he really wanted respectability, and the only way he could have that was by staying true to his kids , being there when they needed him, supporting them, being in their lives. He was so ashamed of himself for loving a man, that staying true to his girls was the only thing that redeemed him in his mind. Consequently, he would go on denying Jack and giving up what he wanted with Jack as a sort of self-inflicted punishment for his "sins."
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I don't need 30 or 40 people babbling either lol who could keep up or want to, you'd never be able to absorb it all!!
The emotions may be the same but the implementation and expectations of them between men and women and between men and men aren't the same. It's really confusing sometimes, personally, because I'm not str8 and I'm not gay, I'm in the middle--which means being capable of forming an emotional attachment of equal depth with a person regardless of their gender. So I more or less either don't fit in anyone';s pidgeonhole or have to make my own and it has always been that way.They weren't two lovers traipsing through the alpine meadows picking wildflowers, they were 2 extremely confused teenaged boys when this all started; the former view drives me batty lol. I mean EDM handing the eidelweiss to JT roflmao!. IN THE BEGINNING, some women may approach from the hetero point of view but hell, look at what you're say, aintfoolin---you may think you do but sure enuff, you don't. I was talking about something else entirely lolol!!! You are approaching it with the clinical detachment of an extremely intelligent person who feels passionately about the subject. Nice to meet ya, maam!
Two pages in all this time needs to get changed <G>
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No one on this forum has had the boys traipsing through the field-when my husband first watched it he said there was no courtship between the two in the beginning- O/T but that was a man's perspective and I used almost those same exact words when trying to explain that the courtship was there but they weren't carving each others initials in a tree. ::) Anyway back to topic:
If there is something I sense the morning after, it is the fact that Jack must have had Ennis entirely on his mind. For Jack, I don't even think there was any sense of shame, although when he shivers naked by the stream while doing the laundry, there is an unmistalable sense of dread.
Make no mistake: Jack wanted it, and he was afraid to lose it.
I agree Thomas- Jack didn't know what was going through Ennis's mind at that point- he took the chance the night before, he got what he wanted and then Ennis rides off. He had a lot to dread at that point- that he could lose Ennis completely- friendship included.
Great posts aintfoolin and Lamusica O0
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Oh there was a courtship allright, an increasing domesticity, an increasing comfortability. Hell i had just such a courtship; luckily these two were quicker!!!!!
An increasing attachment: those glances by each at the other, as they rode away up to the sheep; the singing; the stories. That was a courtship if there ever was one.
The morning after FNIT Jack was so hopeful. Thomas you said it, the shivering as he did the laundry in the cold of the mountain shows not just cold but dread. 'What's going to happen, he couldn't even look at me, couldn't even talk with me...."
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i suspect that Jack knew Ennis needed some time to digest all this. He did,nt call after him or try to stop him from leaving in any way, Yes I agree with you that it was a dreaded few hours( I'm assuming the time), thinking about facing Ennis again, Maybe he thought they'd loose their freindship over this?
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I think he was so scared of the outcome he didn't know what to expect, not after the way Ennis ran away that morning. Because that's what he did, that boy RAN.
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I agree Thomas- Jack didn't know what was going through Ennis's mind at that point- he took the chance the night before, he got what he wanted and then Ennis rides off. He had a lot to dread at that point- that he could lose Ennis completely- friendship included.
I feel this to be so because I had felt many times like this in my younger days. The joy of confirming a connection is beyond all words. The crush of rejection is rewarded with the soul's bleak silence.
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The morning after FNIT Jack was so hopeful. Thomas you said it, the shivering as he did the laundry in the cold of the mountain shows not just cold but dread. 'What's going to happen, he couldn't even look at me, couldn't even talk with me...."
That's why Jack's face in that confrontation with Ennis is inscrutably beautiful for me. It cannot completely hide the apprehension and hope in his visage. All the turmoild was internal, and we see it plain in that quiet, inscrutable face.
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i suspect that Jack knew Ennis needed some time to digest all this. He did,nt call after him or try to stop him from leaving in any way, Yes I agree with you that it was a dreaded few hours( I'm assuming the time), thinking about facing Ennis again, Maybe he thought they'd loose their freindship over this?
It would have been a disaster, I think, had Jack pressed the issue with Ennis before the latter left in the morning to rejoin the flock. Thank God Jack knew better. HOw could he not. He must have been at a loss at what to say. "See ya for supper" is so pregnant with meaning.
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that was beautifully stated and poetic....just beautiful.
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"See ya for supper."
"I'll see ya next month then."
"See ya in the mornin."
These statements by Jack and Ennis do have their own beauty, their own poetry.
The first one that breaks the silence in the morning after scene is hope and anticipation. The second one that chokes on the post-divorce meeting is disappointment and misunderstood expectations. The last one is a promise of love remembered, if not fulfilled.
These three statments tell the story of Ennis and Jack in a microcosm. The morning after is indeed a milestone. All that came after leaned on the hope that found its beginning here.
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That Ennis can't bring himself to look into Jack's eyes that morning is a sign of the confusion of his feelings. In SNIT he looks at Jack directly, because by then he knows at least part of what he feels.
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I beleive Jack's "see you for supper" comment in a way releived Ennis's confusion a little by allowing him to get a inkling of where Jack;s head was at that morning .Though he rode off like a bat out of hell , It made it easier for him to approach Jack later up where he was tending the sheep. Had to be thinking" well at least he does'nt wanna kill me". And then later Jack say's "it's nobody's buisness but ours" further reinforcing this. Jack waited, while Ennis thought it out, his patience, a jewel among the rocks,and he saw his reward for it in SNIT. :c) :^^) :cr)
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Nicely elucidated, WW and aintfoolin. Resolution was indeed achieved to a great extent in the SNIT. The way the tension breaks even in the change in the accompanying music was so beautifully done. A most wonderful transition from all the stress and strain of the preceding scenes that were so full of doubt and uncertainty.
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Because when you find the one you find yourself too. Ennis found himself, but didn't have the courage to acknowledge what he's found anywhere other than when he was with Jack.
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Yes he did indeed" found himself". Jack had swung the door wide open to his heart He just could'nt find the courage to walk through to the other side. Only when he was with Jack could he be his true self.It still baffles me that after SNIT Ennis still could'nt commit It was such a life-changing experience. An acknowledgement of what he wanted to be. I suppose fear from childhood trauma is to blame.When I think about the whole BBM experience Ennis had, it was Jack that taught and introduced Ennis to alot. There were alot of "firsts" for him up there but once they came down to the real world Ennis balked. Jack was willing but Ennis just was'nt able. there was to many places to hide.
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Is this thread filled wit aspiring poets??
What lovely lovely posts, thanks for stating what you stated in the way you did....
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Brokeback , I have always been better at expreessing myself on paper + wring poetry since grade school. Believe it or not I am not a big verbal communicator, and I appreciate your comments. I love this story so much because there is so much to relate to. Thanks for sharing yours.
At 19 years old , I will say that these two cowboys were mature-minded and thought way beyond their years, the way they handle this thread topic is an example IMO. Things could have turned out alot differently, maybe even violently, So many things could have gone wrong here, but the way they handled this very complicated and personal situation is a testament to their love ...and their maturity. Don't you think?
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We are all poets in the face of poetry. BBM is visual poetry, more than anything else.
The morning after scene is a perfect illustration of this: so few words spoken, but we see a whole world of meaning.
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Yep, this film indeed inspires poetry with it's "poetry in motion" feel. So much was left to decide, so many symbols involved. so many what if's and unfinished expression. Between FNIT and SNIT left much to the imagination IMO, such as did they come down together? Was anything said over dinner? It was dark when SNIT tent happened. Did Ennis make Jack wait torturous hours wondering what was gonna happen before saying anything more than "one shot thing"? Did even days go by?The quiet moments spoke volumes, but my imagination still runs wild. Is there one defining moment that propeled Ennis into SNIT? He had alot of time to think , at least a day.
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I wonder if it was easier to go through the routine of a day first. Traditionally you go to bed ( to sleep!) in the evening/night, when it's dark, and darkness may make it easier at this point for Ennis. In a way it looks less blatantly sexual to wait, I suppose - the ss says that only later did they have sex in the daytime/outdoors.
The morning after FNIT Ennis was hung-over and confused - the day up on the mountain gave him time to sort out his thoughts and Jack's arrival must have reassured him. By night-time they'd settled the sheep - and Ennis was bothered by the idea of not doing his job - come down, eaten. In a way they were on their own time then; what Aguirre wanted them to do was illegal anyway so not doing it was less important than it might have been.
All Jack was concerned about was how Ennis might react - once he went up to the mountain and they spoke it was evident that ennis wasn;t going to reject or attack him, which he might have considered possible.
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But don't you think that by this time even Ennis ,as concerned as he was over neglecting a job, the sheep became secondary in the scheme of things .Other major changes were occupying his thoughts.....like his feelings for Jack and what had just transpired between them?
Indeed I agree that darkness was probably Ennis's freind. It hid alot of things in an unconcious way for him. The cover of darkness providing a sort of protective "safety" and finality to the first phase of his realizations? That being the fact that he had to admit to himself that he no doubt loved what he and Jack had done, and wanted to explore it more? It is a fascinating insight into Ennis's acceptance of who he was becoming, a pivotal moment. the step by step phases that he went through, Throwing another log into the fire as he's contemplating, maybe symbolizing the fire that that he did'nt want to let die? might be telling. finally deciding to walk into the tent the second time....but this time he needed no coaxing. Just a strong self awareness of what he felt and could no longer deny.We were'nt privy to the whole of the goings on in SNIT, but the next morning Ennis seemed mighty comfortable and satisfied in a playful way, as if he'd been released.chasing Jack around that camp. I think he had reached the full acceptance phase of himself. Too bad he could'nt hold on to that courage. Ennis bein Ennis? He tasks me. Eh, go figure.
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Happy New Year!!!!
I won't be on much the next few weeks, I'm getting married in 3 days....it gets very chaotic.
Jack
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All Jack was concerned about was how Ennis might react - once he went up to the mountain and they spoke it was evident that ennis wasn;t going to reject or attack him, which he might have considered possible.
Yes, this became apparent. In a way, it was an indirect affirmation of the way Ennis felt. IN spite of his look, Jack must have been immensely relieved.
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But don't you think that by this time even Ennis ,as concerned as he was over neglecting a job, the sheep became secondary in the scheme of things .Other major changes were occupying his thoughts.....like his feelings for Jack and what had just transpired between them?
To a certain extent, I would say yes. I do think that Ennis was still mindful of his duties the morning after FNIT: witness his look of shame upon discovering the remains of the sheep and his killing and skinning of the cayote. But yes, I would suppose that during the SNIT and after, all other things became secondary to him.
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Happy New Year!!!!
I won't be on much the next few weeks, I'm getting married in 3 days....it gets very chaotic.
Jack
OT: Happy New Year, Jack. And congratulations.
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Happy New Year to you too Jack, if may and congrads on your marriage!
May you always find the happiness you feel today. :cr)
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I always thought that Ennis asscoiated the discovery of the dead sheep with his remembrance of Earl and Rich as a child. Homosexual activity =death with him?Maybe this plays into his feirce, strong , stubborn, protectiveness he felt for Jack. It was essential to him that nobody found out or Jack would die. Jack was "safe" as long as they were together, but when they were apart Jack, in Ennis's mind was open and vulnerable to great harm. May be this is why he quit jobs etc., drastic measures to insure that he saw Jack in person every 2-3 months. Though he could'nt make a committment to live together, It must've worried him immensely that Jack wasn't safe in his mind.. He became "nothin and nowhere" because of it. His sacrifices?
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His father's showing him the dead body suggested that society, in the form of his father, accepted the attitudes shown by the murder.
Finding the dead sheep suggested that his own activities with Jack had been wrong in whatever way he saw it.
The overall message must have appeared to him to be that homosexual activity was something that would always be followed by death. If he internalized this belief, it may account for his fears and denail of Jack's requests.
it also turned out to be true; though the death was Jack's not his. and Jack's, like the other two, was a violent and bloody death, the weak being killed by the strong.
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I always thought that Ennis asscoiated the discovery of the dead sheep with his remembrance of Earl and Rich as a child. Homosexual activity =death with him?Maybe this plays into his feirce, strong , stubborn, protectiveness he felt for Jack. It was essential to him that nobody found out or Jack would die. Jack was "safe" as long as they were together, but when they were apart Jack, in Ennis's mind was open and vulnerable to great harm. May be this is why he quit jobs etc., drastic measures to insure that he saw Jack in person every 2-3 months. Though he could'nt make a committment to live together, It must've worried him immensely that Jack wasn't safe in his mind.. He became "nothin and nowhere" because of it. His sacrifices?
Yes, even in BBM, Death is also present.
There is in fact a separate thread about the symbolism of the dead sheep. The posts pretty much agree with what you said here. But what you said about Earl and Rich must certainly be true.
I don't think Ennis regretted the act per se. As you said, he was more worried about what it boded for the future.
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His father's showing him the dead body suggested that society, in the form of his father, accepted the attitudes shown by the murder.
Finding the dead sheep suggested that his own activities with Jack had been wrong in whatever way he saw it.
The overall message must have appeared to him to be that homosexual activity was something that would always be followed by death. If he internalized this belief, it may account for his fears and denail of Jack's requests.
it also turned out to be true; though the death was Jack's not his. and Jack's, like the other two, was a violent and bloody death, the weak being killed by the strong.
Very well put. This casts the connection with Earl and Rich in a stronger light.
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I totally agree with this WW and Tpe. It also suggests of course that him exposing this to his young son, he was teaching Ennis that this is the way he was suppose to feel about what happens when 2 men live together too. To accept it. Like father_ like son . This did alot of damage to Ennis as a child. He destroyed something in Ennis that he desperatly needed later in life as a grown man , the ability to love and receive love without guilt or fear. Shame on him. ( The sins of the father visited upon the son.) :( :c)
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Ennis's childhood experiences must weigh heavily on this tragedy. Yes, this was most likely on his mind theat morning after.
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And though Ennis wouldn't have known the expression, the dead sheep is a manifestation of "Et in Arcadia ego" - and maybe of the fall - death came into the world as a result of sin, and Ennis may have picked this idea up from his mother. He uses the word "sinner" in the previous night's conversation, which suggests that religious concepts, if not pressing on his attention, were certainly at the back of his mind.
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And though Ennis wouldn't have known the expression, the dead sheep is a manifestation of "Et in Arcadia ego" - and maybe of the fall - death came into the world as a result of sin, and Ennis may have picked this idea up from his mother. He uses the word "sinner" in the previous night's conversation, which suggests that religious concepts, if not pressing on his attention, were certainly at the back of his mind.
Yes, this is true.
WW, have you seen my old post about this?
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"See ya for supper."
"I'll see ya next month then."
"See ya in the mornin."
These statements by Jack and Ennis do have their own beauty, their own poetry.
The first one that breaks the silence in the morning after scene is hope and anticipation. The second one that chokes on the post-divorce meeting is disappointment and misunderstood expectations. The last one is a promise of love remembered, if not fulfilled.
These three statments tell the story of Ennis and Jack in a microcosm. The morning after is indeed a milestone. All that came after leaned on the hope that found its beginning here.
The thing is, each of these quotes are really questions. There's a tentativeness -- an unknown response --to each of them. I see them as feelers one man puts out to the other, hoping for the right answer, but never too sure of the other's reactions. Again, I think this speaks to the fact that they are not 100% sure of each other. They want the other one to want them and to be with them, but there's always some doubt.
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I certainly think a sense of shame was inevitable -- shame at what he did and shame at not gurading the sheep that night as he was expected to do. The screenplay indicates that Ennis is filled with shame when he discovers the dead sheep that morning. I do suspect that for a person of Ennis's make-up, a sense of duty runs very strong.
Still, I still think that the primary thing on Ennis's mind was his own identity and his feeelings for Jack. Would he have changed his mind had he known beforehand that the flock would be under assault? I doubt that very much.
This brings me to a related scene -- the time when they were forced to seek shelter together during the hail storm. There are numerous antecedents in classical Greek and Roman literature of pastoral lovers seeking shelter in a grotto during a storm. BBM is indeed filled with subtle classical allusions. The morning after the FNIT indeed echoes similar ancient antecedents. But we find a similar echo in the hail storm episode. I don't doubt that during the hail storm, they spent the night making love. Of course, the day after, they are met with disaster when they realized that the sheep drifted during the night and got entangled with another flock. Again, a loss of face at a failure to do one's duty. And like the morning after the FNIT, I doubt that they had very much regret.
The parallelisms are beautifully conceived...
tpe: I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on more "subtle classical allusions". I know I haven't picked up on all of them.
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Nicely elucidated, WW and aintfoolin. Resolution was indeed achieved to a great extent in the SNIT. The way the tension breaks even in the change in the accompanying music was so beautifully done. A most wonderful transition from all the stress and strain of the preceding scenes that were so full of doubt and uncertainty.
Does anyone know why the music from the SNIT isn't on the soundtrack? It's so beautiful! >:(
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Yes he did indeed" found himself". Jack had swung the door wide open to his heart He just couldn't find the courage to walk through to the other side. Only when he was with Jack could he be his true self.It still baffles me that after SNIT Ennis still couldn't commit It was such a life-changing experience. An acknowledgement of what he wanted to be. I suppose fear from childhood trauma is to blame.When I think about the whole BBM experience Ennis had, it was Jack that taught and introduced Ennis to alot. There were alot of "firsts" for him up there but once they came down to the real world Ennis balked. Jack was willing but Ennis just wasn't able. there was to many places to hide.
The SNIT was such a beautiful, tender scene - so much so that I can't really express how wonderful it was. Jack was so gentle with Ennis and Ennis - he finally gave in & you could see the pain, the longing and relief on his face & in his moans. :\'(
Several have expressed on this thread that it was too bad the boys couldn't/didn't express themselves verbally more. I feel the same - I wanted those words! In an interview I saw with Ang Lee, he said that there were no words - no language - that could express what they felt for each other - that it was so special & precious that there was no way to adequately articulate their feelings - their feelings/behavior were so private. After hearing that, I can certainly see why there were not a lot of words. But still - we need to dissect all the scenes & squeeze out every word we think we hear - that's what makes it so special for all of us. ^f^
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The thing is, each of these quotes are really questions. There's a tentativeness -- an unknown response --to each of them. I see them as feelers one man puts out to the other, hoping for the right answer, but never too sure of the other's reactions. Again, I think this speaks to the fact that they are not 100% sure of each other. They want the other one to want them and to be with them, but there's always some doubt.
Wonderful point, lamusica. I do think there is a tentativeness in those statements. They were grappling with each other till the very end. I think we see the struggle first in this scene.
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tpe: I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on more "subtle classical allusions". I know I haven't picked up on all of them.
Thanks, BBM Fan. I know discussions of this are scattered all about the forum. But the scene with the dead sheep in most certainly classical. The whole morning-after scene is a pivot on which Jack's demise is already foretold, or at least forshadowed, IMO.
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This is true especially if your looking at it from Ennis's point of view. Any reference to homosexual activity sets Ennis's mind back to the ingrained consequences of it which could only mean bad news to him. This is unfortunate, for it goes to the essence of his denial of his own personal feelings as well as a hendrance to Jack's wishes to establish a permanant life together.Earl and Ray? Definitly.
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This is true especially if your looking at it from Ennis's point of view. Any reference to homosexual activity sets Ennis's mind back to the ingrained consequences of it which could only mean bad news to him. This is unfortunate, for it goes to the essence of his denial of his own personal feelings as well as a hendrance to Jack's wishes to establish a permanant life together.Earl and Ray? Definitly.
What fruit therefore had you then in those things, of which you are now ashamed? For the end of them is death.
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Well said! Death, the ultimate wake up call.
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Had Ennis been less afraid of "death", perhaps he would have realized that there is such a thing as a "living death": to live without ever having loved to the full. Had an angel come down from heaven to whisper this truth into his ear as he contemplated the dead sheep, he may have seen things in a different light. But no, it was some devil that pronounced the Great Lie: Live this way and you shall die.
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Unfortunitly "the devil" was in the form of his own father. What a shame. I'm still inclined to beleive that if it were'nt for his father's terrible deed when Ennis was a small child ,the road to his sexual awakening with Jack may have been easier traveled. The fear, not only on the kid's (Ennis) face at that moment ,but what must have stayed ingrained in his concience for many years to come, destroyed any hope of him accepting his true feelings openly about his sexuality to himself or to the one he loved so dearly.
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It is fitting that the scenes under discussion are almost entirely wordless -- the only exception being the confrontation that comes before the SNIT. The inner drama occurs all in their head and in their souls. For Ennis, it certainly must be the memory of a father's warning and the accompanying lesson that illustrated the consequences. For Jack, it was the uncertainly of how Ennis felt about him and the possibility of rejection. Had these been put into words, they would surely prove to be inadequate. But what is certain is that both of them were weighing their own fears and doubts against the counterweight of their love, affection, and desires. For both, the balance was delicately maintained: hence the caution, hesitation, and deliberate obfuscation exhibited in the confrontation.
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This is true tpe. The absence of verbal communcation between them contributed to alot of their problem. Too much wishing, guessing and hoping on both their part, in this scene and throughout this film. At times Jack went on assumption alone. They kept each other in the dark about many things. What had just happened between them during the night was a very personal and and in some ways tramatic event. Neither seemed to understand exactly what it all meant for the future and neither was about to discuss it openly in a frank manner. Ennis , in particular did not like what it defined him to be in his paranoia, and always asummed the worse scenario. Jack, in my opinion probably would have been more open to talk about it and could be drawn out. By cutting off communicating, Ennis cheated Jack out of the only confidant he had.They both liked *doing it* , but were unwilling to try to define it. They were'nt sophisticates.
My 2 cents. Thanks.
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This is true tpe. The absence of verbal communcation between them contributed to alot of their problem. Too much wishing, guessing and hoping on both their part, in this scene and throughout this film. At times Jack went on assumption alone. They kept each other in the dark about many things. What had just happened between them during the night was a very personal and and in some ways tramatic event. Neither seemed to understand exactly what it all meant for the future and neither was about to discuss it openly in a frank manner. Ennis , in particular did not like what it defined him to be in his paranoia, and always asummed the worse scenario. Jack, in my opinion probably would have been more open to talk about it and could be drawn out. By cutting off communicating, Ennis cheated Jack out of the only confidant he had.They both liked *doing it* , but were unwilling to try to define it. They were'nt sophisticates.
My 2 cents. Thanks.
aintfoolin, I will even try to make a comparison between the scene where Jack goes up to where Ennis is pasturing the sheep and the scene when Jack drives to Wyoming after Ennis tells him about the divorce.
In both scenes, Jack takes the initiative and goes to Ennis. But in the first one, he is guarded and does not open the exchange of words. He makes his presence known but waits for Ennis to set the tone. In the second one, Jack is taken completely off guard. He had assumed too much and thus suffered accordingly.
Too many assumptions and dreams left not fully articulated. In the first scene, it helped, as Jack knew that Ennis was not in a position to articulate his own feelings. In the second scene, Jack had jumped to conclusions, having assumed too much from Ennis's postcard announcing the divorce.
It is amazing how such assumptions and things left unsaid initially helped them, and finally hurt them in the end. Without the leap of faith, perhaps neither of them would have connected initially. But because things left unsaid where left to fester over the years, their connection bacame more and more tenuous. Such is love and life for many of us in real life.
Sometimes, the things we leave unsaid in order to move forward come back to haunt us.
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Beautifully said tpe, as you said just that small leap of faith would be all that's required. IMO it is part of the growth process in a relationship to openly communicate, letting your likes, dislikes, desires,and limits be known to the other person in the relationship once your comfortable. This removes the "guessing game" aspects of it. Even someone as inwardly wIthdrawn as Ennis can be drawn out with the right approach and wording. Jack had the gift to do this. Each time he did'nt , he got robbed. Sometimes it takes one partner to "bring out " the other and v/v, give hope without assumptions . It shows that you care. With the secretive aspect to this affair, it would have been easy to to do this. Barring a couple slipups (Alma and Aguirre), no one knew about it anyway and they were'nt about to tell anyone , so why not simlpy talk honestly? Even when they were completly alone, on "fishing trips "we never saw them get any deeper than general surface talk. ( Jack's "I miss you so much ,I can hardly stand it") declaration was as close as it came , though it did say alot, ....UNTIL the last meeting when it all came spilling out. nearly 20 years of pent up anger ,resentment, and blame. Had they communicated more, things may have been alot different. IMHO
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It must have been painful for Jack to realize that Ennis was not growing in the relationship.
In spite of his cautiousness and tentativness immediately after the FNIT, Ennis did make such a leap of faith in at least allowing himself to express his love for Jack in a manner that went against his fears and childhood traumas. How sad it is that this opening-up did not progress as Jack had hoped.
Still, we should appreciate that given his past, it must have been a tremendous leap for Ennis to even allow/accept Jack into his inner life and realize that he himself had feeling that could not be denied. That is still the value of the morning after: that Ennis woke up from a lifetime of sleep.
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s, sure, true of the morning after FNIT, but later? I don't think Ennis ever moved on at all after this - in a way he can almost be said to have regressed. Like a lot of emotional people, Jack assumes Ennis is feeling the same emotions as he is - it takes a long time for him to realize he's quite wrong.
I'm sure that next morning Jack was full of trepidation, but also of underlying optimism - how wrong he was. Makes me start thinking about what each of them thought the other meant by the "one-shot thing" comment.
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s, sure, true of the morning after FNIT, but later? I don't think Ennis ever moved on at all after this - in a way he can almost be said to have regressed. Like a lot of emotional people, Jack assumes Ennis is feeling the same emotions as he is - it takes a long time for him to realize he's quite wrong.
I'm sure that next morning Jack was full of trepidation, but also of underlying optimism - how wrong he was. Makes me start thinking about what each of them thought the other meant by the "one-shot thing" comment.
Precisely, the start was promising. And in certain instances (as in the reunion), it looked like the stars were watching over them. But I agree that Ennis stalled, or even regressed. This I think was part of the frustration. Ennis brooding the morning after FNIT is prophetic of what was to come.
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It is a good thing that Jack went up there like they he did, otherwise Ennis would have kept him waiting all day for what he needed to know. Maybe longer. It was his way of forcing Ennis to communicate his feelings if only in some small way. I think he knew Ennis was'nt going to pour out a fit of emotion. Far from it. That just was'nt Ennis. Although, there were moments of unspoken communication on Jack's part.,an example being Jack quietly letting Ennis speak first without a lot of pressure to come up with any defined reasoning for what had happened at that time, yet silently letting Ennis know he needed answers . I think we see the beginning of this Passive/submissive aspect of their affair. Ennis setting the pace of progress... From this moment on Ennis maintained a dominant control in the relationship. My 2 cents.
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It is a good thing that Jack went up there like they he did, otherwise Ennis would have kept him waiting all day for what he needed to know. Maybe longer. It was his way of forcing Ennis to communicate his feelings if only in some small way. I think he knew Ennis was'nt going to pour out a fit of emotion. Far from it. That just was'nt Ennis. Although, there were moments of unspoken communication on Jack's part.,an example being Jack quietly letting Ennis speak first without a lot of pressure to come up with any defined reasoning for what had happened at that time, yet silently letting Ennis know he needed answers . I think we see the beginning of this Passive/submissive aspect of their affair. Ennis setting the pace of progress... From this moment on Ennis maintained a dominant control in the relationship. My 2 cents.
I perhaps would have been possible tha Ennis would not have come down to camp that night, no? Yes, Jack did good going up to where the sheep were pasturing. It sent a signal to Ennis that he (Jack) was not about to disappear.
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I perhaps would have been possible tha Ennis would not have come down to camp that night, no? Yes, Jack did good going up to where the sheep were pasturing. It sent a signal to Ennis that he (Jack) was not about to disappear.
I think you're right, tpe. Ennis was ashamed of what had occurred, & he probably would not have come down - even for more of that yummy Elk.
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I think this was also what made Jack restless: he knew enough of Ennis that if he did not take the initiative to confront him, then all may be possibly lost. Well, I think Ennis wasn't just about to bail out on Jack, given the true depth of his emotions, but Jack's sudden appearance at least put an end to Ennis's brooding.
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Ennis also may have been thinking he had hurt Jack , adding to his guilt and shame.
It was not exactly one of his most tender moments in the FNIT , though I did'nt hear Jack complaining. Jack coming to him in the pasture reassured Ennis that he was also taking responsibility for how it happened.
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I don't think Enis controilld the relationship. Jack controlled it. This is shown in the scene where they are walking to the bar before going up to BBM, after their interview with Aguirre. Jack leads, Ennis follows. Unfortunately you can't lead an unwilling horse to water and that;s what Ennis WAS in many ways, stuck in his own very narrow world of 1963 Wyoming [ I'm very glad modern cowpokes travel--they find their way around the coffeepot and see more then that handle]. Where Jack could lead, he did. Yes Ennis was the sexual top and Jack the submissive, yet in many many relationships it's the submissive one who wields ultimate control --and that's what I find here. Witnes { OT} the final argument. Jack controlled that.
The moring after i don't think Jack had a clue what to do or expect, after Ennis couldn't even look at him as he rode off, let alone speak with him.....
By the way I'm in Vienna, so if I don't answer right away that's why. Having fun on our honeymoon, meeting Wienerbrokies <G>!!!
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Viva! Brokeback 1. You are a true brokie, taking time out of your honeymoon to post! I agree that Jack led where he could,but as you said you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him commit. Ennis was stubborn as a mule. Jack is the one who kept the relationship going but Ennis controlled how far it went in a sense. He also controlled the timing of the meetings and where " every once in a while out in the middle of nowhere" and Jack submits to this out of love and a fear of loosing Ennis completly imo. If Jack had weilded the control he did have a little more forcfully he probably would have gotten more of what he wanted ( but the morning after was not the time to push Ennis and Jack knew this. ) At some point towards the end,(last meeting) he must have realized that he needed to put his foot down.. When Ennis tried to change the Aug. meeting to Nov., Jack slammed the truck door in frustration and anger and finally let Ennis have it...with both barrels. This is akin to an angry judge slamming the hammer down to regain control of his courtroom. He'd finally had enough of Ennis's stalling , paranoia ,and excuses. He was in control here for sure but why did he wait so long? Sorry, I'm *o)
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Ennis also may have been thinking he had hurt Jack , adding to his guilt and shame.
It was not exactly one of his most tender moments in the FNIT , though I did'nt hear Jack complaining. Jack coming to him in the pasture reassured Ennis that he was also taking responsibility for how it happened.
Very well put, aintfoolin. Jack certainly didn't run away from it.
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I really don't think Ennis was afraid he hurt Jack. I think he was more suprise at his reaction to Jack's overture, this is someone who was a virgin. It stunned and I think scared him. So when they on the the mountainside the discussion took place, he wanted to set the rules, more for himself, than for Jack. Jack knew this, and followed his lead.
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I really don't think Ennis was afraid he hurt Jack. I think he was more suprise at his reaction to Jack's overture, this is someone who was a virgin. It stunned and I think scared him. So when they on the the mountainside the discussion took place, he wanted to set the rules, more for himself, than for Jack. Jack knew this, and followed his lead.
I think you're right, manhattangirl. I think Ennis was embarrassed too, at what he has done. Once Jack made the first move, Ennis took over.
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No doubt that Ennis felt fear ,guilt,shame and all the emotions humanly possible after this FNIT. But what rules? I think Ennis was more concerned about being thought of by Jack as being"queer" and he wanted to let Jack know that he was'nt that way. Being "queer" , in Ennis's mind was not good. ( his childhood teachings) This is what he feared the most, that somehow Jack would think him less of a "real man" because of what happened. To Ennis it was more about HOW it happened than what actually did happen. It became personal to him. Faced with Jack's suprising seduction, he could'nt resist and he was forced to admit to himself that he was not only attracted to Jack , but he'd acted on it and liked it..ALOT. He was reassured when Jack said " it's nobody"s business but ours" thus not being judgemental of him. Jack was telling Ennis that it does'nt really matter wether he was or not, he still wanted to be freinds ( and lovers) if possible, AND that he was'nt going to put their business in the street so to speak . By this time Jack was deeply in love with Ennis and did'nt want to loose him or scare him away. On the surface Ennis's "one shot" comment can be taken literally, but he adds "got going on here". "Going on" are the key words , suggesting a continuation of the affair. Jack "got it" and waited, hopeful that Ennis would'nt deny those feelings for him , but explore them further. Jack got the answers he wanted in SNIT.... Ennis's complete surrender to them and him.
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Great point, but I'm thinking it was because of that he was setting rules, a coping mechanism for him. Who was his fight against, not Jack. The fight was always against himself and his desires. This is a man who worked successfully to cut himself off from any meaningful relationship in his life. "No Reins" I think his was good at putting reins on himself.
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Great exchange, friends. I love the idea of a coping mechanism. I think Jack was very aware that Ennis was struggling to cope with what happened between them, and that was what concerned Jack the most. You certainly see a look of extreme discomfort when we see Ennis ride away from Jack the morning after, and this certainly put a damper on Jack's spirits (as can be seen from the expression on his face.)
So yes, Jack realized that it was not a struggle between Ennis and himself. It was a struggle between Ennis and Ennis, and Jack felt helpless about it.
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tpe,
As always you go to the heart of what I'm trying to say.
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Thanks manhattangirl.
I have learned to appreciate how Jack had handled the situation in that brief exchange with Ennis up the mountain. At that point, Jack had set his heart into having Ennis -- all else seemed secondary.
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So true tpe, falling in love with Ennis was the easy part. Getting Ennis to reciprocate that love equally proved to be the harder task. Though it took a while I think Jack evenvtually realized that Ennis did love him shown more through actions more than verbal. In SNIT it became crystal clear that Ennis felt deeply for Jack . More deep than he was ready to admit to himself.
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So true tpe, falling in love with Ennis was the easy part. Getting Ennis to reciprocate that love equally proved to be the harder task. Though it took a while I think Jack evenvtually realized that Ennis did love him shown more through actions more than verbal. In SNIT it became crystal clear that Ennis felt deeply for Jack . More deep than he was ready to admit to himself.
You hit the nail on the head, aintfoolin. I do think Jack understood that Ennis loved him purely from his actions. He became a master of it, I'm sure, even though the beginning was quite tricky, as witnessed by the morning after.
How could jack have doubted after the reunion kiss? But that was 4 years later, and before that, perhaps he was unsure of how best to reciprocate.