Topic: The next morning, What were they thinking?

[tpe]

The morning after FNIT Jack was so hopeful. Thomas you said it, the shivering as he did the laundry in the cold of the mountain shows not just cold but dread. 'What's going to happen, he couldn't even look at me, couldn't even talk with me...."

That's why Jack's face in that confrontation with Ennis is inscrutably beautiful for me.  It cannot completely hide the apprehension and hope in his visage.    All the turmoild was internal, and we see it plain in that quiet, inscrutable face.

[tpe]

i suspect that Jack knew Ennis needed some time to digest all this. He did,nt call after him or try to stop him from leaving in any way, Yes I agree with you that it was a dreaded few hours( I'm assuming the time), thinking about facing Ennis again, Maybe he thought they'd loose their freindship over this?

It would have been a disaster, I think, had Jack pressed the issue with Ennis before the latter left in the morning to rejoin the flock.  Thank God Jack knew better.  HOw could he not.  He must have been at a loss at what to say.  "See ya for supper" is so pregnant with meaning.

[Brokeback_1]

 that was beautifully stated and poetic....just beautiful.

[tpe]

"See ya for supper."

"I'll see ya next month then."

"See ya in the mornin."



These statements by Jack and Ennis do have their own beauty, their own poetry.

The first one that breaks the silence in the morning after scene is hope and anticipation.  The second one that chokes on the post-divorce meeting is disappointment and misunderstood expectations.  The last one is a promise of love remembered, if not fulfilled.

These three statments tell the story of Ennis and Jack in a microcosm.  The morning after is indeed a milestone.  All that came after leaned on the hope that found its beginning here.

[welshwitch]

That Ennis can't bring himself to look into Jack's eyes that morning is a sign of the confusion of his feelings. In SNIT he looks at Jack directly, because by then he knows at least part of what he feels.

[aintfoolin]

I beleive Jack's "see you for supper" comment in a way releived Ennis's confusion a little by allowing him to get a inkling of where Jack;s head was at that morning .Though he rode off like a bat out of hell , It made it easier for him to approach Jack later up where he was tending the sheep. Had to be thinking" well at least he does'nt wanna kill me". And then later Jack say's "it's nobody's buisness but ours" further reinforcing  this. Jack waited, while Ennis thought it out, his patience,  a jewel among the rocks,and he saw his reward for it in SNIT.

[tpe]

Nicely elucidated, WW and aintfoolin.  Resolution was indeed achieved to a great extent in the SNIT.  The way the tension breaks even in the change in the accompanying music was so beautifully done.  A most wonderful transition from all the stress and strain of the preceding scenes that were so full of doubt and uncertainty.

[welshwitch]

Because when you  find the one you find yourself too. Ennis found himself, but didn't have the courage to acknowledge what he's found anywhere other than when he was with Jack.

[aintfoolin]

Yes he did indeed" found himself". Jack had swung the door wide open to his heart He just could'nt find the courage to walk through to the other side. Only when he was with Jack could he be his true self.It still baffles me that after SNIT Ennis still could'nt commit It was such a life-changing experience. An acknowledgement of what he wanted to be. I suppose fear from childhood trauma is to blame.When I think about the whole BBM experience Ennis had, it was Jack that taught and introduced Ennis to alot. There were alot of "firsts" for him up there but once they came down to the real world Ennis balked. Jack was willing but Ennis just was'nt able. there was to many places to hide.

[Brokeback_1]

Is this thread filled wit aspiring poets??

What lovely lovely posts, thanks for stating what you stated in the way you did....

[aintfoolin]

Brokeback , I have always been better at expreessing myself on paper + wring poetry  since grade school. Believe it or not I am not a big verbal communicator, and I appreciate your comments. I love this story so much because there is so much to relate to. Thanks for sharing yours.
 At 19 years old , I will say that these two cowboys were mature-minded and thought way beyond their years, the way they handle this thread topic is an example IMO.   Things could have turned out alot  differently, maybe even violently,  So many things could have gone wrong here, but the way they handled this very complicated and personal situation is a testament to their love ...and their maturity. Don't you think?

[tpe]

We are all poets in the face of poetry.  BBM is visual poetry, more than anything else.

The morning after scene is a perfect illustration of this:  so few words spoken, but we see a whole world of meaning.

[aintfoolin]

Yep, this film indeed inspires poetry with it's "poetry in motion" feel. So much was left to decide, so many symbols involved. so many what if's and unfinished expression. Between FNIT and SNIT left much to the imagination IMO, such as did they come down together? Was anything said over dinner? It was dark when SNIT tent happened. Did Ennis make Jack wait torturous hours  wondering what was gonna happen  before saying anything more than "one shot thing"? Did even days go by?The quiet moments spoke volumes, but my imagination still runs wild. Is there one defining moment that propeled Ennis into SNIT? He had alot of time to think , at least a day.

[welshwitch]

I wonder if it was easier to go through the routine of a day first. Traditionally you go to bed ( to sleep!) in the evening/night, when it's dark, and darkness may make it easier at this point for Ennis. In a way it looks less blatantly sexual to wait, I suppose - the ss says that only later did they have sex in the daytime/outdoors.

The morning after FNIT Ennis was hung-over and confused - the day up on the mountain gave him time to sort out his thoughts and Jack's arrival must have reassured him. By night-time they'd settled the sheep - and Ennis was bothered by the idea of not doing his job - come down, eaten. In a way they were on their own time then; what Aguirre wanted them to do was illegal anyway so not doing it was less important than it might have been.

All Jack was concerned about was how Ennis might react - once he went up to the mountain and they spoke it was evident that ennis wasn;t going to reject or attack him, which he might have considered possible.

[aintfoolin]

But don't you think that by this time even Ennis ,as concerned as he was over neglecting a job, the sheep became secondary in the  scheme of things .Other major changes were occupying his thoughts.....like his feelings for Jack and what had just transpired between them?
Indeed I agree that darkness was probably Ennis's freind. It hid alot of things in an unconcious way for him. The cover of darkness providing a sort of protective "safety" and finality to the first phase of his realizations? That being the fact that he had to admit to himself that he no doubt loved what he and Jack had done, and wanted to explore it more? It is a fascinating insight into Ennis's acceptance of who he was becoming, a pivotal moment. the step by step phases that he went through, Throwing another log into the fire as he's contemplating, maybe symbolizing the fire that that he did'nt want to let die? might be telling. finally deciding to walk into the tent the second time....but this time he needed no coaxing. Just a  strong self awareness of what he felt  and could no longer deny.We were'nt privy to the whole of the goings on in SNIT, but the next morning Ennis seemed mighty comfortable and satisfied  in a playful way, as if he'd been released.chasing Jack around that  camp. I think he had reached the full acceptance phase of himself. Too bad he could'nt hold on to that courage.  Ennis bein Ennis?  He tasks me. Eh, go figure.

[Brokeback_1]

Happy New Year!!!!

I won't be on much the next few weeks, I'm getting married in 3 days....it gets very chaotic.

Jack

[tpe]

All Jack was concerned about was how Ennis might react - once he went up to the mountain and they spoke it was evident that ennis wasn;t going to reject or attack him, which he might have considered possible.

Yes, this became apparent.  In a way, it was an indirect affirmation of the way Ennis felt.  IN spite of his look, Jack must have been immensely relieved.

[tpe]

But don't you think that by this time even Ennis ,as concerned as he was over neglecting a job, the sheep became secondary in the  scheme of things .Other major changes were occupying his thoughts.....like his feelings for Jack and what had just transpired between them?

To a certain extent, I would say yes.  I do think that Ennis was still mindful of his duties the morning after FNIT: witness his look of shame upon discovering the remains of the sheep and his killing and skinning of the cayote.  But yes, I would suppose that during the SNIT and after, all other things became secondary to him.

[tpe]

Happy New Year!!!!

I won't be on much the next few weeks, I'm getting married in 3 days....it gets very chaotic.

Jack

OT: Happy New Year, Jack.  And congratulations. 

[aintfoolin]

Happy New Year to you too Jack, if  may and congrads on your marriage!
May you always find the happiness you feel today.

[aintfoolin]

I always thought that Ennis asscoiated the discovery of the dead sheep with his remembrance of Earl and Rich as a child. Homosexual activity =death with him?Maybe this plays into his feirce, strong , stubborn, protectiveness he felt for Jack. It was essential to him that nobody found out or Jack would die. Jack was "safe" as long as they were together, but when they were apart Jack, in Ennis's mind was open and vulnerable to great harm. May be this is why he quit jobs etc., drastic measures to insure that he saw Jack in person every 2-3 months. Though he could'nt make a committment to live together, It must've worried him immensely that Jack wasn't safe in his mind.. He became "nothin and nowhere" because of it. His sacrifices?

[welshwitch]

His father's showing him the dead body suggested that society, in the form of his father, accepted the attitudes shown by the murder.

Finding the dead sheep suggested that his own activities with Jack had been wrong in whatever way he saw it.

The overall message must have appeared to him to be that homosexual activity was something that would always be followed by death. If he internalized this belief, it may account for his fears and denail of Jack's requests.

it also turned out to be true; though the death was Jack's not his. and Jack's, like the other two, was a violent and bloody death, the weak being killed by the strong.

[tpe]

I always thought that Ennis asscoiated the discovery of the dead sheep with his remembrance of Earl and Rich as a child. Homosexual activity =death with him?Maybe this plays into his feirce, strong , stubborn, protectiveness he felt for Jack. It was essential to him that nobody found out or Jack would die. Jack was "safe" as long as they were together, but when they were apart Jack, in Ennis's mind was open and vulnerable to great harm. May be this is why he quit jobs etc., drastic measures to insure that he saw Jack in person every 2-3 months. Though he could'nt make a committment to live together, It must've worried him immensely that Jack wasn't safe in his mind.. He became "nothin and nowhere" because of it. His sacrifices?

Yes, even in BBM, Death is also present. 

There is in fact a separate thread about the symbolism of the dead sheep.  The posts pretty much agree with what you said here.  But what you said about Earl and Rich must certainly be true.

I don't think Ennis regretted the act per se.  As you said, he was more worried about what it boded for the future.

[tpe]

His father's showing him the dead body suggested that society, in the form of his father, accepted the attitudes shown by the murder.

Finding the dead sheep suggested that his own activities with Jack had been wrong in whatever way he saw it.

The overall message must have appeared to him to be that homosexual activity was something that would always be followed by death. If he internalized this belief, it may account for his fears and denail of Jack's requests.

it also turned out to be true; though the death was Jack's not his. and Jack's, like the other two, was a violent and bloody death, the weak being killed by the strong.

Very well put.  This casts the connection with Earl and Rich in a stronger light. 

[aintfoolin]

I totally agree with this WW and Tpe. It also suggests of course that him exposing this  to his young son, he was teaching Ennis that this is the way he was suppose to feel about what happens when 2 men live together too. To accept it.  Like father_ like son . This did alot of damage to Ennis as a child. He destroyed something in Ennis that he desperatly needed later in life as a grown man , the ability to love and receive love without guilt or fear. Shame on him.  ( The sins of the father visited upon the son.)

[tpe]

Ennis's childhood experiences must weigh heavily on this tragedy.  Yes, this was most likely on his mind theat morning after.

[welshwitch]

And though Ennis wouldn't have known the expression, the dead sheep is a manifestation of "Et in Arcadia ego" - and maybe of the fall - death came into the world as a result of sin, and Ennis may have picked this idea up from his mother. He uses the word "sinner" in the previous night's conversation, which suggests that religious concepts, if not pressing on his attention, were certainly at the back of his mind.

[tpe]

And though Ennis wouldn't have known the expression, the dead sheep is a manifestation of "Et in Arcadia ego" - and maybe of the fall - death came into the world as a result of sin, and Ennis may have picked this idea up from his mother. He uses the word "sinner" in the previous night's conversation, which suggests that religious concepts, if not pressing on his attention, were certainly at the back of his mind.

Yes, this is true.

WW, have you seen my old post about this?

[lamusica]

"See ya for supper."

"I'll see ya next month then."

"See ya in the mornin."



These statements by Jack and Ennis do have their own beauty, their own poetry.

The first one that breaks the silence in the morning after scene is hope and anticipation.  The second one that chokes on the post-divorce meeting is disappointment and misunderstood expectations.  The last one is a promise of love remembered, if not fulfilled.

These three statments tell the story of Ennis and Jack in a microcosm.  The morning after is indeed a milestone.  All that came after leaned on the hope that found its beginning here.

The thing is, each of these quotes are really questions.  There's a tentativeness -- an unknown response --to each of them.  I see them as feelers one man puts out to the other, hoping for the right answer, but never too sure of the other's reactions.  Again, I think this speaks to the fact that they are not 100% sure of each other.  They want the other one to want them and to be with them, but there's always some doubt.

[BBM Fan]

I certainly think a sense of shame was inevitable -- shame at what he did and shame at not gurading the sheep that night as he was expected to do.  The screenplay indicates that Ennis is filled with shame when he discovers the dead sheep that morning.  I do suspect that for a person of Ennis's make-up, a sense of duty runs very strong. 

Still, I still think that the primary thing on Ennis's mind was his own identity and his feeelings for Jack.  Would he have changed his mind had he known beforehand that the flock would be under assault?  I doubt that very much.

This brings me to a related scene -- the time when they were forced to seek shelter together during the hail storm.  There are numerous antecedents in classical Greek and Roman literature of pastoral lovers seeking shelter in a grotto during a storm.  BBM is indeed filled with subtle classical allusions.  The morning after the FNIT indeed echoes similar ancient antecedents.  But we find a similar echo in the hail storm episode.  I don't doubt that during the hail storm, they spent the night making love.  Of course, the day after, they are met with disaster when they realized that the sheep drifted during the night and got entangled with another flock.  Again, a loss of face at a failure to do one's duty.  And like the morning after the FNIT, I doubt that they had very much regret. 

The parallelisms are beautifully conceived...

tpe:  I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on more "subtle classical allusions".  I know I haven't picked up on all of them.