Author Topic: The next morning, What were they thinking? (Read 53273 times)

tpe · « **Reply #30 on:** Dec 07, 2006, 09:25 AM »

Yes. It is likely that Jack still didn't have his pants on (or at least it was still undone). I suppose he put on his jacket sometime in the night because of the cold.

Brokeback_1 · « **Reply #31 on:** Dec 07, 2006, 06:46 PM »

He put it back on before leaving the tent because it was cold??

aintfoolin · « **Reply #32 on:** Dec 10, 2006, 03:49 AM »

So why would'nt he button his pants back? I think they did it more than once IMO. Another thing I noticed is that one tent tie is tied up during the night, but in the morning the ties are all undone when Ennis looks outside.

tpe · « **Reply #33 on:** Dec 13, 2006, 12:03 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Dec 10, 2006, 03:49 AM

So why would'nt he button his pants back? I think they did it more than once IMO. Another thing I noticed is that one tent tie is tied up during the night, but in the morning the ties are all undone when Ennis looks outside.

What an interesting thought: that they did it more than once. And why not? For Ennis, it must have been like he fell into a tub of honey -- one cannot help but taste the sweetness more than once.

Of course, this is speculation on my part.

NoReins · « **Reply #34 on:** Dec 14, 2006, 04:32 AM »

Hmmm. I don't think they did it more than once and I don't think that Jack's jeans are still undone when Ennis is looking at him in the morning. I'm convinced it's more just Ennis waking up, hungover, a bit blurry about what happened the night before, realising he's in the tent with Jack...and then the memory hitting him.

welshwitch · « **Reply #35 on:** Dec 14, 2006, 09:23 AM »

I'm quite convinved that Ennis's first thoughts are "Oh, my God, what have I done?" All the rest comes later. He looks to me as if he's going up the mountain in a grim, non-communicative mood while he sorts out his reactions and emotions.

tpe · « **Reply #36 on:** Dec 14, 2006, 11:18 AM »

Quote from: NoReins on Dec 14, 2006, 04:32 AM

Hmmm. I don't think they did it more than once and I don't think that Jack's jeans are still undone when Ennis is looking at him in the morning. I'm convinced it's more just Ennis waking up, hungover, a bit blurry about what happened the night before, realising he's in the tent with Jack...and then the memory hitting him.

This pretty much matches my original thoughts, except that I did think Jack's pants remained undone. But I did think that Ennis glanced at Jack primarily because the remembrance of the previous night hit him -- and the sight of Jack sleeping next to him confirmed it.

tpe · « **Reply #37 on:** Dec 14, 2006, 11:21 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Dec 14, 2006, 09:23 AM

I'm quite convinved that Ennis's first thoughts are "Oh, my God, what have I done?" All the rest comes later. He looks to me as if he's going up the mountain in a grim, non-communicative mood while he sorts out his reactions and emotions.

It's interesting that Ennis looks at Jack without horror or distaste the morning after. It was as if he was resigned to the act. As you said, all this seemed to come later.

welshwitch · « **Reply #38 on:** Dec 14, 2006, 01:55 PM »

He seems almost disengaged from Jack, or maybe unwilling to do or say anything until he's worked out what to do and say. His thoughts appear to be focused on himself; he alsmost seems eager to get away from Jack as quickly as possible and with as little interaction as possible. Perhaps Jack would have been less inhibited. Though of course neither of them is really capable of much abstraction and therefore must find it difficult to talk about what they can't conceptualize. Part of the tragedy is that they lack words to such a huge extent.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #39 on:** Dec 15, 2006, 08:42 AM »

When it finally dawned on him what had happened during the night his first thought was " Did anyone see us? evidenced by the way he cautiously looked outside. Then it was outside to his horse to prepare to leave. During this time I beleive he was just thinking about how he felt about what'd happened. He seemed to be in a hurry but was'nt " running " either.I don't think he was prepared for Jack's "see you for supper" comment. And he was'nt about to stick around and discuss or be questioned about it in anyway. Not yet. I think he was thinking initially that Jack had sort of tricked him on some level. Of course this thought never held water because Jack never forced him to go all the way. He had the opportunitiy to leave the tent if he wanted to at any time. I also think HE LIKED IT! To his suprise he knew he liked it but just could'nt admit it to Jack verbally.Think he admmitted that . it was the part that he knew what it meant that he could'nt handle. MO

tpe · « **Reply #40 on:** Dec 15, 2006, 09:23 AM »

Yes, Ennis didn't seem prepared to meetJack that morning, no? You could almost sense a shiver in Ennis when he departs...

The scene after the departure does intrigue me. Overall, Ennis looks morose and dejected -- feeling guilty, no doubt, and brooding over his own nature. But I imagine a hint of a smile at times -- as if to confirm that he did like it.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #41 on:** Dec 15, 2006, 09:27 PM »

No doubt he felt guilty, but I like your little reference to a smile when got a private moment to himself. With all the turmoil he felt inside I think he knew what it all meant. Through Jack he found out what true love really was. It;s just too bad he could'nt express it verbally but Jack knew it anyway.

Brokeback_1 · « **Reply #42 on:** Dec 16, 2006, 08:32 PM »

Well of course, Ennis had just cornholed another boy his own age--out of nowhere no matter what the feelings of attraction were between them. This was an enormous shock. He was very troubled by it and very ashamed--he had placed his penis in the rear end of a friend the likes of which he had never had in his life while that friend moaned "Ennis, please f*** me, please.' [ Play FNIT on the dvd--raise the volume up as high as it can go. Over on DCF one of the threads figured out to the second where it is, but it's better if you find and listen yourself, has quite an impact!]

You think that's not goin a affect a 19 year old Wyomin boy obsessed by bein a cowboy???

Especially having his bud LIKE it??? Ennis was ashamed and shocked and everything else.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #43 on:** Dec 18, 2006, 05:33 AM »

I have NO doubt that Ennis felt some degree of shock,shame and guilt. The look on his face showed alot of things at once but one thing I did'nt see was disgust. I can't really find the words to describe that look,(maybe I just don't wanna talk about it right away? I need some time?) We can tell by what transpired afterwards what he really felt at that time and that is Ennis really liked what he and Jack had done, and wanted to learn more about this side of his sexuality with Jack Twist. And he fell in love.

Twisted · « **Reply #44 on:** Dec 18, 2006, 05:36 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Dec 18, 2006, 05:33 AM

I have NO doubt that Ennis felt some degree of shock,shame and guilt. The look on his face showed alot of things at once but one thing I did'nt see was disgust. I can't really find the words to describe that look,(maybe I just don't wanna talk about it right away? I need some time?) We can tell by what transpired afterwards what he really felt at that time and that is Ennis really liked what he and Jack had done, and wanted to learn more about this side of his sexuality with Jack Twist. And he fell in love.

Ditto!!

tpe · « **Reply #45 on:** Dec 18, 2006, 11:09 AM »

I certainly think a sense of shame was inevitable -- shame at what he did and shame at not gurading the sheep that night as he was expected to do. The screenplay indicates that Ennis is filled with shame when he discovers the dead sheep that morning. I do suspect that for a person of Ennis's make-up, a sense of duty runs very strong.

Still, I still think that the primary thing on Ennis's mind was his own identity and his feeelings for Jack. Would he have changed his mind had he known beforehand that the flock would be under assault? I doubt that very much.

This brings me to a related scene -- the time when they were forced to seek shelter together during the hail storm. There are numerous antecedents in classical Greek and Roman literature of pastoral lovers seeking shelter in a grotto during a storm. BBM is indeed filled with subtle classical allusions. The morning after the FNIT indeed echoes similar ancient antecedents. But we find a similar echo in the hail storm episode. I don't doubt that during the hail storm, they spent the night making love. Of course, the day after, they are met with disaster when they realized that the sheep drifted during the night and got entangled with another flock. Again, a loss of face at a failure to do one's duty. And like the morning after the FNIT, I doubt that they had very much regret.

The parallelisms are beautifully conceived...

Brokeback_1 · « **Reply #46 on:** Dec 18, 2006, 03:25 PM »

I never saw disgust with Jack on Ennis' face. Shame, yes. Confusion yes. Definately shock and a terrible guilt. But disgust? The only glimmer of it was what I took to be SELF disgust at using his friend's rear end and it did not last more then a second; it was combined with his terrible sense of guilt. He felt so awful he couldn't even look at Jack. In true Ennis fashion he took the entire burden onto HIMSELF...

nope. No disgust with jack. No disgust for the sex. But disgust at himself for getting drunk and using Jack 's rear end, using him as if he was a girl, crossing 'the line'

Yes, so long as you take it as part of his entire package of mental self abuse that day. IMO

aintfoolin · « **Reply #47 on:** Dec 18, 2006, 04:45 PM »

Yes, he was mentally punishing himself that morning. His upbringing demaned it. It was part of being Ennis to do this IMO, but not being able to look Jack in the eyes that morning was also part of his inability to admit that he loved it and in reality wanted more of it. Maybe he thought Jack was going to require him to talk about it, which is something Ennis was not ready to do in any way shape or form. not yet anyway. When Jack appeared up where he was tending the sheep, he'd had time to digest what had happened . He was definitly conflicted about being regarded by Jack as being "queer" which was the first thing out of his mouth once he faced Jack again. His "one shot deal" comment , I feel was just what he said and beleived at the time, still trying to define his feelings about what happened between him and Jack. When we see him sitting by the fire contemplatlng joining Jack in the tent he knew then that it went deeper than the rough sex he'd had in the FNIT. By then he had feelings for Jack that he could'nt control. Jack knew this all along and acted accordingly. Without words , they both understood what was transpiring in SNIT. They had, to their surprise, fallen in love with each other.So cool.

MHO

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #48 on:** Dec 18, 2006, 10:16 PM »

I don't know if I would use the word disgust- I think it was like aintfoolin said- his upbringing was coming into play. I think he spent his life (Pre-BBM) trying to deny who he was (I'm assuming he had some inkling during his early teenaged years) and when he woke up the next morning he was at first confused as to whether or not it really had happened and then he realized that yes it did. To "run off" is an Ennis trait- look at him going off to be alone when he was told they had to come down from the mountain. He just needed his time to process everything. I do give him huge amounts of credit for not retreating into himself though- seeing that sheep was a reminder that he was not doing his job, yes but it was a reminder of Earl and that in itself was enough for him to just close in on himself. But he talked to Jack and we all know how the rest of the summer went- so again huge credit to Ennis for confronting his past enough to be able to admit that he loved Jack (maybe not verbally but...)

Brokeback_1 · « **Reply #49 on:** Dec 18, 2006, 10:34 PM »

That's the thing though: he never WAS able to say the words 'I Love You' to Jack. Not once. He was incapable of saying them even during the dozy embrace later that summer.

Ennis is deeper then any of us ever thought. On another Forum we have been debating this in threads devoted to damned near every aspect of the film, book and each character; it more or less ties together in that forum's relationship thread. I would love doing that here but almost every comment would put me OT. Part of the reason it's so good there is that there is a core group of about 15-20 posters who have taken apart their every character trait only to find...more. True, it was easier after we got help from Annie Proulx, the book's author, but even that opened up new avenues to agrue over and discuss. A Quit/No Quit debate there got so learned [and wacky at times] even Annie heard about it roflmaoooo.

There were gender gaps in the analysis too--a lot of the women who see Brokeback look on it the same as if it was a hetero romance when it wasn't. It was between 2 horndog working class ranch kids who were completely unequipped to handle what they had done. Some of the gay men denied every and anything which tied it to the usual heterosexual romance. Both approached with an open mind and have come together, it's pretty amazing when you look at how people have grown the last year, or 9 months or 3 months.

This book, and this film have to be considered seperately AND together, sort of as bookends. Each is unique and each is a masterpiece, one fills out the other and it doesn't much matter [imo] which you were exposed to first. There are only 4 or 5 posters on this thread and it suffers from that. The question is HUUUGE: What were they thinking? Movie Jack is pretty easy that morning. Movie Ennis is NOT.

tpe · « **Reply #50 on:** Dec 19, 2006, 09:11 AM »

Quote from: Brokeback_1 on Dec 18, 2006, 03:25 PM

I never saw disgust with Jack on Ennis' face. Shame, yes. Confusion yes. Definately shock and a terrible guilt. But disgust? The only glimmer of it was what I took to be SELF disgust at using his friend's rear end and it did not last more then a second; it was combined with his terrible sense of guilt. He felt so awful he couldn't even look at Jack. In true Ennis fashion he took the entire burden onto HIMSELF...

nope. No disgust with jack. No disgust for the sex. But disgust at himself for getting drunk and using Jack 's rear end, using him as if he was a girl, crossing 'the line' Yes, so long as you take it as part of his entire package of mental self abuse that day. IMO

I think Ennis knew deep down that he loved it all.

tpe · « **Reply #51 on:** Dec 19, 2006, 09:16 AM »

If there is something I sense the morning after, it is the fact that Jack must have had Ennis entirely on his mind. For Jack, I don't even think there was any sense of shame, although when he shivers naked by the stream while doing the laundry, there is an unmistalable sense of dread.

Make no mistake: Jack wanted it, and he was afraid to lose it.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #52 on:** Dec 19, 2006, 09:56 AM »

Ok here's my take on this. Well I'll start by saying that I agree that Ennis is very deep. Due to his upbringing he lacks the ability to be an "outgoing'i person, just not his personality to be that way. His childhood experiences have made his deameanor withdrawn, ashamed, guilt ridden,. and they may have been two 19 year old boys but they had to grow up fast . For all the turmoil in their younger years, I think they turned out pretty good. Him not being able to say "I love you" is tied to this IMO He will almost, always wait for the other person to take the initiative in that regard. Rejection, a fearful , constant companion. It's not an act beleive me. Second women have been feeling And dealing with the same issues Jack dealt with for centuries! The names have been changed to protect the innocent but the reaction ,actions,,,, is the same. Make no mistake, women UNDERSTAND Jack and the way he dealt with Ennis. In the context of feelings, It's easy for us to know how he felt.about this man because we've lived it, not to say men don't but mature,experienced women I beleive have an" inside track " on how Jack felt from his POV. It's built in our nature to do so .Maybe gay men on these forums feel the same about this and I respect them for it But as a woman, I can only see it from that POV. Trying to get a man like Ennis to commit himself after they've been taught (sometimes threatened, to hide so much , to be ashamed of so much is a ilong difficult process , a constant battle) Most would say communication is essential, something their relationship sorely lacked , but moving on , you said that gay guys on your forum stated that women only see it from a heterro POV . I can't pretend to know their life experiences but it seems to me the conclusions are the same. They are entitled to their opinions and I respect them fully as I hope they will do mine. We don't always have to agree on everything . We can agree to disagree too Jack was able to "read" Ennis more by his actions than words. This takes careful insightfullness and a strong awareness of the other person and Jack had this down, He KNEW Ennis but he also bothered to find the WHY of him too. This allowed Jack to understand better where Ennis was coming from though it made it no less painful. Finally, You say that this thread "suffers" from only 4-5 posters. I thought people posted on a particular thread cause it interests them in some fashion right? They post because they have something to contribute to the disscussion.? Happen to like the movie version over the SS, but to each his own eh? There are some very insightful people on this thred and I myself happen to love the intimate "living room with friends" flavor it has. I don't need to listen to 40 people talkin about the same f---kin thing on a thread. Some people do and that's fine with me if that's what you like .But I don't. My two cents .Peace to ya.

lamusica · « **Reply #53 on:** Dec 19, 2006, 12:13 PM »

Thoughtful and insightful post, aintfoolin'. I do think Jack understood Ennis, but I do not think he ever knew exactly what Ennis would say or do. He knew him well enought to accept whatever he gave him. He realized Ennis was not predictable -- mainly because Ennis did not know himself. That's where the main difference between these two guys comes in, IMO. Jack knew EXACTLY what he wanted -- Ennis. he would do anything he could think of to get him and keep him, but nothing really worked out for him. He could not convince Ennis to live with him. Ennis, on the other hand, didn't know exactly what he wanted, or he wanted too many things. You can't have it all. He could have Jack, that's for sure, but then he would have had to give up his daughters. Ennis wasn't willing to do that. Did he maybe use them as his excuse to not live with Jack-- to not capitulate entirely to Jack? I sometimes think that is the case..
Jack is such a forceful character. Ennis, though, wanted Jack and wanted his family, too. Also, I think he really wanted respectability, and the only way he could have that was by staying true to his kids , being there when they needed him, supporting them, being in their lives. He was so ashamed of himself for loving a man, that staying true to his girls was the only thing that redeemed him in his mind. Consequently, he would go on denying Jack and giving up what he wanted with Jack as a sort of self-inflicted punishment for his "sins."

Brokeback_1 · « **Reply #54 on:** Dec 19, 2006, 06:02 PM »

I don't need 30 or 40 people babbling either lol who could keep up or want to, you'd never be able to absorb it all!!

The emotions may be the same but the implementation and expectations of them between men and women and between men and men aren't the same. It's really confusing sometimes, personally, because I'm not str8 and I'm not gay, I'm in the middle--which means being capable of forming an emotional attachment of equal depth with a person regardless of their gender. So I more or less either don't fit in anyone';s pidgeonhole or have to make my own and it has always been that way.They weren't two lovers traipsing through the alpine meadows picking wildflowers, they were 2 extremely confused teenaged boys when this all started; the former view drives me batty lol. I mean EDM handing the eidelweiss to JT roflmao!. IN THE BEGINNING, some women may approach from the hetero point of view but hell, look at what you're say, aintfoolin---you may think you do but sure enuff, you don't. I was talking about something else entirely lolol!!! You are approaching it with the clinical detachment of an extremely intelligent person who feels passionately about the subject. Nice to meet ya, maam!

Two pages in all this time needs to get changed <G>

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #55 on:** Dec 19, 2006, 11:21 PM »

No one on this forum has had the boys traipsing through the field-when my husband first watched it he said there was no courtship between the two in the beginning- O/T but that was a man's perspective and I used almost those same exact words when trying to explain that the courtship was there but they weren't carving each others initials in a tree.

Anyway back to topic:

Quote

Quote from: tpe on Dec 19, 2006, 09:16 AM

If there is something I sense the morning after, it is the fact that Jack must have had Ennis entirely on his mind. For Jack, I don't even think there was any sense of shame, although when he shivers naked by the stream while doing the laundry, there is an unmistalable sense of dread.

Make no mistake: Jack wanted it, and he was afraid to lose it.

I agree Thomas- Jack didn't know what was going through Ennis's mind at that point- he took the chance the night before, he got what he wanted and then Ennis rides off. He had a lot to dread at that point- that he could lose Ennis completely- friendship included.

Great posts aintfoolin and Lamusica

Brokeback_1 · « **Reply #56 on:** Dec 20, 2006, 04:35 AM »

Oh there was a courtship allright, an increasing domesticity, an increasing comfortability. Hell i had just such a courtship; luckily these two were quicker!!!!!
An increasing attachment: those glances by each at the other, as they rode away up to the sheep; the singing; the stories. That was a courtship if there ever was one.

The morning after FNIT Jack was so hopeful. Thomas you said it, the shivering as he did the laundry in the cold of the mountain shows not just cold but dread. 'What's going to happen, he couldn't even look at me, couldn't even talk with me...."

aintfoolin · « **Reply #57 on:** Dec 20, 2006, 07:02 AM »

i suspect that Jack knew Ennis needed some time to digest all this. He did,nt call after him or try to stop him from leaving in any way, Yes I agree with you that it was a dreaded few hours( I'm assuming the time), thinking about facing Ennis again, Maybe he thought they'd loose their freindship over this?

Brokeback_1 · « **Reply #58 on:** Dec 20, 2006, 07:44 AM »

I think he was so scared of the outcome he didn't know what to expect, not after the way Ennis ran away that morning. Because that's what he did, that boy RAN.

tpe · « **Reply #59 on:** Dec 20, 2006, 08:28 AM »

Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Dec 19, 2006, 11:21 PM

I agree Thomas- Jack didn't know what was going through Ennis's mind at that point- he took the chance the night before, he got what he wanted and then Ennis rides off. He had a lot to dread at that point- that he could lose Ennis completely- friendship included.

I feel this to be so because I had felt many times like this in my younger days. The joy of confirming a connection is beyond all words. The crush of rejection is rewarded with the soul's bleak silence.