Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: manhattangirl on Jan 18, 2007, 06:30 PM
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Hi,
You may have gone over this before, but I'm new here so I have a heck of lot of questions.
Why did Ennis marry Alma? I don't think it was love, (on his part anyway), but his next logical step in his mind. Remember, His sister got married and left, and so did his brother, he was alone, Alma even mentioned that in the film. So for him it was the thing to do.
His thoughts on sex with her was interesting I thought, "if you don't want to have any of children, I'll leave you alone." Sex with woman only means babies, WOW! Compare this with the passion he showed when he was with Jack.
His employment, he had kids but never tried to do better, get a better work with more money. He'll quite his job when Jack sent him a postcard. Alma's only requests was that they move to town and live over a laundry, and go to the church social, (he gave in to one, but not the other).
He married Alma, because it was the thing to do. He was protective of Alma, but I doubt that he loved her. His whole being was centered in Jack, and even that tormented him.
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manhattangirl , I am almost sure something like this has been discussed, but I can't find any thread that deals with this topic specifically. So unless we find a similar old thread, we should let this thread stand as is. :)
I am sure that before meeting Jack, Ennis thought himself to be in love with Alma -- and most likely he was in love. I don't think he married Alma primarily out of desperation or a need to conform. But yes, the need to MARRY Alma must have something to do with what he considered the expectations of society.
He lost his parents early, and he had a miserable childhood. He must have looked forward to marriage, raising a family of his own, and finally having a sense of belonging that he didn't have.
I am also sure that marriage was also part in emulation of his brother, who helped raise him. When his brother married, he had to fend for himself, and it must have entered his mind that he should follow suit so that he finally establishes a place where he truly belongs.
I hope these thoughts make sense. They just skim the surface, I'm sure.
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He lost his father and mother together; his sister and brother have both married and he is evidently going to follow the same path. Ennis strikes me as a conventional man who simply does what other people do - you grow up, you strike out on your own, you meet a girl, get engaged, marry, have children, work to support them all.
Once he's engaged to her, he's far too conventional to break the engagement - early on he told Jack he would be getting married when he left the mountain, and as they part he repeats this. He's like a single-track train - once he starts he goes straight down the line with no possibility of deviation.
He presumably he thought he loved Alma - not until he met Jack did he experience the reality of passion. IMO he never felt passion for Alma; she was at base a Jack substitute, second best if that.The honeymoon sequence to me demonstrates just that; they're more like two kids playing, not like two lovers who can't keep their hands off each other. Affection maybe - passion no.
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I think he married Alma because it was what he was supposed to do. I think before Jack he was fine with going with the staus quo and perhaps after he thought it really was a one shot thing that he could move on from it. I'm sure he felt something for Alma but no where near what he felt for Jack. Maybe he thought that going back to life as it was pre-BBM would help him forget. I agree with WW that he is like a single track train. I also think that he wanted to re-affirm to himself that he wasn't queer- if he broke off the engagement because of Jack he'd have to face some truths as well as the inevitable questions from Alma as to why. I don't think he was forced or anything- just doing what was expected of him.
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I too agree with others. Love is such a complicated thing. It is possible that Ennis did love Alma until Jack came into his live.
We don't know what happened before. Given what we know from the movie, Ennis's love for Alma is in no comparison with his to Jack.
I was once close to engage a girl many years ago. I thought I loved her and was completely faithful to her until I met Bubu. :c)
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I was once close to engage a girl many years ago. I thought I loved her and was completely faithful to her until I met Bubu. :c)
It takes just one instance to realize where our love lies. As with you and Ennis, I don't think there was any conscious deception. Ennis must have also thought that he loved Alma above everything else. He didn't plan to fall in love with Jack.
And as in all things in life, there is some degree of momentum before the ship can change course. Ennis had thought that his relationship with Jack was simply a fluke, and that the one we had with Alma was real. How many times have we made the same mistake, and entered into something before we realized where the heart lay?
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I don't think Ennis ever equated loving Alma and loving Jack. He didn't know he was in love with Jack at that time. He knew he was gut-wrenchingly bereft when he left Jack at his truck, but LOVE? I don't think he even considered that word where Jack was concerned.
Now, Alma was a different matter. He was supposed to fall in love and get married to a nice girl. That's what men did. So, that's when he did. I think he loved Alma as far as he understood the concept of love -- which was not too fully. He could see himself living with Alma, having kids, sleeping with her, sharing life with her. If anyone had asked him, he would have said he loved her.
Jack was his buddy, a guy he worked with one summer up on BBM. They had a thing; he liked it; he liked Jack; he sometimes wished Jack were around again. But love him? At that time, I don't think so. That came later. At the reunion, his body betrayed him and he and Jack resumed what they had started and that led to love. (Just MHO.)
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Well said Lamusica :)
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It was his attempt to conform and to become a part of the community instead of a rootless ranch-hand, I suppose. But in the end it didn't work - he and Alma never made a permanent home, he lost her and the girls and ended up alone.
I think when he was 19 marriage looked like the only realistic option and one which would give him security. How ironic that instead his marriage to Alma became part of the barrier to his considering a future with Jack.
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It was his attempt to conform and to become a part of the community instead of a rootless ranch-hand, I suppose. But in the end it didn't work - he and Alma never made a permanent home, he lost her and the girls and ended up alone.
I think when he was 19 marriage looked like th only realistic option and one which would give him security. How ironic that instead his marriage to Alma became part of the barrier to his considering a future with Jack.
You are so right.
Remember in the motel, and Jack asks Ennis, "What are we gonna now?" Ennis answers "I doubt there's we can do, You see I'm stuck with what I got here..." . Look at how Ennis thought of his marriage to Alma, he didn't have much to say about anything to Jack about the last four years. How did he view those years without Jack? Empty? barren?
But the interesting thing to me, is how adaptable Ennis could be. When the marriage failed and he and Alma divorced, what was the new excuse for Ennis to use against Jack, visiting his girls, (which was rare), and "Child Support".
Ennis used what others considered as socially the right thing to do, as a weapon to keep Jack, at bay. This one complicated guy.
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I think that the most important reason for Enis to marry Alma is to convince everyone especially himself that he "ain't queer".
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Ennis used what others considered as socially the right thing to do, as a weapon to keep Jack, at bay. This one complicated guy.
Isn't that the message in this film, that we too often do what we think other expect us to do, instead of doing what we want to do.
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Isn't that the message in this film, that we too often do what we think other expect us to do, instead of doing what we want to do.
PetterG, I agree. Society wouldn't accept Ennis's feelings for or a relationship with Jack. Ennis's father made sure he understood this fact.
I think Ennis felt affection for Alma and maybe, as others have said, even loved her before Brokeback. But afterward, I think he went through with the marriage because that's what was expected and accepted. And, in a way, he was trying to suppress what he felt for Jack. But those feelings were just too strong. True love cannot be suppressed.
Del_Marvelous
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^^Great post, Del_Marvelous! ;)
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Evidently Ennis was stubbornly determined to marry Alma; he said so on the mountain, and again when parting from Jack. but I wonder if, after the cataclysm that had overwhelmed him, it also seemed like a sort of place to run to and hide - if he was married he clearly wasn't queer, but he was also indistinguishable, at least outwardly, from all the other married men around. There is a sense in which Alma, Lureen and LaShawn all fulfill the same function.
And Jack had gone, he had no idea where, so whatever had happened on the mountain had been a one-shot thing which was part of the past and from which he was safe.
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Perfectly stated, WW.
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I don't think Ennis ever equated loving Alma and loving Jack. He didn't know he was in love with Jack at that time. He knew he was gut-wrenchingly bereft when he left Jack at his truck, but LOVE? I don't think he even considered that word where Jack was concerned.
Now, Alma was a different matter. He was supposed to fall in love and get married to a nice girl. That's what men did. So, that's when he did. I think he loved Alma as far as he understood the concept of love -- which was not too fully. He could see himself living with Alma, having kids, sleeping with her, sharing life with her. If anyone had asked him, he would have said he loved her.
Jack was his buddy, a guy he worked with one summer up on BBM. They had a thing; he liked it; he liked Jack; he sometimes wished Jack were around again. But love him? At that time, I don't think so. That came later. At the reunion, his body betrayed him and he and Jack resumed what they had started and that led to love. (Just MHO.)
I think initially, Ennis mistook his budding love for Jack with physical desire. Yes, I did think that for Ennis at that point, love could only be possible between him and Alma. Having been raised in lonely and tough circumstances, it is not surprising to me that Ennis had probmens discerning where his heart lay...
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I think when he was 19 marriage looked like the only realistic option and one which would give him security. How ironic that instead his marriage to Alma became part of the barrier to his considering a future with Jack.
Yes, it did seem like the next logical step for a rootless 19 year old. But he should have known that life is never that logical when it comes to matters of the heart.
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You are so right.
Remember in the motel, and Jack asks Ennis, "What are we gonna now?" Ennis answers "I doubt there's we can do, You see I'm stuck with what I got here..." . Look at how Ennis thought of his marriage to Alma, he didn't have much to say about anything to Jack about the last four years. How did he view those years without Jack? Empty? barren?
But the interesting thing to me, is how adaptable Ennis could be. When the marriage failed and he and Alma divorced, what was the new excuse for Ennis to use against Jack, visiting his girls, (which was rare), and "Child Support".
Ennis used what others considered as socially the right thing to do, as a weapon to keep Jack, at bay. This one complicated guy.
Yes. At that point, I did feel that Ennis was partly usding his family as a reason to distance himself a bit from Jack.
Was it guilty conscienece? Did he feel that Jack was partly to balme for the divorce. Ennis probably felt sometimes that had Jack not shopwn up, he would have just have lead a "normal" (yet unfulfilled) life with Alma. To him, his life with Alma was the reality to bear, and everything else that got in the way would prove his undoing.
At this point, it was not about love for Alma; it was partly love of his daughter, but it was also a desperate desire to saty the "normal" course.
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I think that the most important reason for Enis to marry Alma is to convince everyone especially himself that he "ain't queer".
I do think this was partly the reason. Even before he met Jack, I suspect that Ennis harbored doubts about his love for Alma. After thery had met, it became imperative for Ennis to try to forget Jack, and set aside the unpleasant implications...
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Isn't that the message in this film, that we too often do what we think other expect us to do, instead of doing what we want to do.
Or do what we think others expect us to do.
I guess Ennis just wanted to have a normal quiet lif. Even if that life was largely unfulfilling, I think he would not have minded that much. But Jack changed all that...
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PetterG, I agree. Society wouldn't accept Ennis's feelings for or a relationship with Jack. Ennis's father made sure he understood this fact.
I think Ennis felt affection for Alma and maybe, as others have said, even loved her before Brokeback. But afterward, I think he went through with the marriage because that's what was expected and accepted. And, in a way, he was trying to suppress what he felt for Jack. But those feelings were just too strong. True love cannot be suppressed.
Del_Marvelous
I do suspect that Ennis loved Alma eraly on into the marriage -- or at least thought that he loved her. We can have lesser loves in our lives even if we are controlled by one great love.
Alma signified stability and normalcy to Ennis. At the very least. he must have loved her for that.
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I do suspect that Ennis loved Alma eraly on into the marriage -- or at least thought that he loved her. We can have lesser loves in our lives even if we are controlled by one great love.
Alma signified stability and normalcy to Ennis. At the very least. he must have loved her for that.
Well said; he loved her for what she symbolized, not necessarily who she really was.
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Well said; he loved her for what she symbolized, not necessarily who she really was.
Yes. he must have certainly loved her for what she stood for. Thanks, jacks_key.
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I think it entirely possible to be pushed along by the expectations of otheres and by your own assumptions into a relationship which leads to marriage although it isn't the sort of love we're talking about between Jack nd Ennis. If you've never been struck by the coup de foudre, how do you know what you're missing?
And if everyone around you nods approvingly at your plans and they're just like those of everyone else, then you feel you're doing the "right" thing - Ennis is nothing if not conventional, too, and marrying Alma is a way of fitting in.
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Yes, Ennis hated the idea of going against convention. In a way, perhaps he blamed Jack for leading him astray... After all, it wasn't Alma's fault...
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Now this is where I run into problems with the movie. Is this a story of a tortured love, or a morality play? It's like a duel movie, or a duel meaning in one movie.
Movie 1: You have the innocent virginal Ennis, who working to make money to marry his sweetheart, Alma, which he does, after his summer of sin. Works hard, have children he takes for ice cream and the fireworks, unfortunately he is led astray by the evil Jack who reenters his life, and tempts and torments him, for the next twenty years to live with him in a evil and sinful relationship. With Ennis "our hero" resisting him in the end, though he lost a lot, his home, wife, his kids he never gave in. Now free to love and mourn Jack, after Jack is laid to waste, with the knowledge resisted the temptation.
Movie 2: You have a lonely young man, trying to make his own life, and family after like everyone else. Finding a nice girl, he does what a lot of young men do, marry have kids. But when he meets Jack, and the question starts,Is this who he is? Is this what he really wants? The war with him starts. Ennis seems to sleepswalk all through his marriage with Alma, then Jack and Jack's love returns to him, and he comes to life again, like that summer in '63. The tragedy of this is that he couldn't or wouldn't acknowledge this until it was too late. if he doubted Jack's love or motives for him wanting a life with Ennis, he found the answer in Jack's bedroom.
I don't know maybe I'm not making sense to a lot of you. Ennis Del Mar is a really fascinating character to me. IMO, it's too easy to say he was just following convention, couldn't it be that the use of that convention is his way to keep him from what he wanted most, Jack. And I think he used it knowingly in fear of what he really was, and he couldn't face the idea that he was in love with a another man.
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Now this is where I run into problems with the movie. Is this a story of a tortured love, or a morality play? It's like a duel movie, or a duel meaning in one movie.
Movie 1: You have the innocent virginal Ennis, who working to make money to marry his sweetheart, Alma, which he does, after his summer of sin. Works hard, have children he takes for ice cream and the fireworks, unfortunately he is led astray by the evil Jack who reenters his life, and tempts and torments him, for the next twenty years to live with him in a evil and sinful relationship. With Ennis "our hero" resisting him in the end, though he lost a lot, his home, wife, his kids he never gave in. Now free to love and mourn Jack, after Jack is laid to waste, with the knowledge resisted the temptation.
Movie 2: You have a lonely young man, trying to make his own life, and family after like everyone else. Finding a nice girl, he does what a lot of young men do, marry have kids. But when he meets Jack, and the question starts,Is this who he is? Is this what he really wants? The war with him starts. Ennis seems to sleepswalk all through his marriage with Alma, then Jack and Jack's love returns to him, and he comes to life again, like that summer in '63. The tragedy of this is that he couldn't or wouldn't acknowledge this until it was too late. if he doubted Jack's love or motives for him wanting a life with Ennis, he found the answer in Jack's bedroom.
I don't know maybe I'm not making sense to a lot of you. Ennis Del Mar is a really fascinating character to me. IMO, it's too easy to say he was just following convention, couldn't it be that the use of that convention is his way to keep him from what he wanted most, Jack. And I think he used it knowingly in fear of what he really was, and he couldn't face the idea that he was in love with a another man.
Hello manhattangirl. As weas said in previous posts, I believe Ennis did both: he tried to stick with convention early on, but ended up using convention as a way to keep Jack at bay. Again, this is not surprising, since this happens so many times in real life and people are not so simplistic as to have only one reason for doing what they do. People do things for various reasons -- some more openly, and others surreptitiously. There is no contradiction in thinking that Ennis desired to stick to convention as well as well as use it as means to keep himself at some distance from Jack later in life.
To think of BBM as making an explicit moral statement is to misunderstand the movie completely, IMO. One of the great powers of the story/movie is that it does not pass judgement on anyone -- not on Jack, Ennis, Alma, Lureen, Aguirre, Jack Twist, Randall, etc. Depending on your point of view, BBM can speak many messages. But I do think the BBM calls each of us to feel compassion for the common humanity that all of us share with each of the characters.
It may be a story of tortured love, but it is love nonetheless. And when does love ever come easy? To love flippantly -- to love without pain or the risk of pain: that is NOT love by any other name.
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Another moralistic view, and one I have read many times, is that Ennis's and Jack's relationship is outside the law. They are both married, but are having an "affair" which, in the end, harms everybody involved. It makes no difference that they are both men. Just the fact that they are carrying on with someone other than their lawful wedded partners is enough for the moralistic right to loath this movie. Unfortunately, this is the only view some people have.
Although I don't hold with this view, I think an argument can be made that this movie is about the one great romance that comes in a person's life. Ennis and Jack are thrown together by circumstances beyond their control, are attracted, act upon that attraction, separate, but get back together again and carry on for the rest of their life until tragedy strikes.
This interpretation goes along with the by-line of the movie - "Love is a force of nature". in other words, it is out of their control. Something (nature, fate, karma) is acting upon them and they are just responding mindlessly to the impetus forced upon them.
How many more interpretations are there? Do they ever end?
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Another moralistic view, and one I have read many times, is that Ennis's and Jack's relationship is outside the law. They are both married, but are having an "affair" which, in the end, harms everybody involved. It makes no difference that they are both men. Just the fact that they are carrying on with someone other than their lawful wedded partners is enough for the moralistic right to loath this movie. Unfortunately, this is the only view some people have.
Although I don't hold with this view, I think an argument can be made that this movie is about the one great romance that comes in a person's life. Ennis and Jack are thrown together by circumstances beyond their control, are attracted, act upon that attraction, separate, but get back together again and carry on for the rest of their life until tragedy strikes.
This interpretation goes along with the by-line of the movie - "Love is a force of nature". in other words, it is out of their control. Something (nature, fate, karma) is acting upon them and they are just responding mindlessly to the impetus forced upon them.
How many more interpretations are there? Do they ever end?
Had Ennis been given a choice early on, he would have tried to resist any flowering of feeling for Jack. But like all of us, Love was beyond his control, as much as it was not in Alma's power to hold him back.
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I don't know maybe I'm not making sense to a lot of you. Ennis Del Mar is a really fascinating character to me. IMO, it's too easy to say he was just following convention, couldn't it be that the use of that convention is his way to keep him from what he wanted most, Jack. And I think he used it knowingly in fear of what he really was, and he couldn't face the idea that he was in love with a another man.
At this point I disagree - simply from my own experience, I did it, and in that period of time. 40-50 years ago was not as open it is now, no way, no how. A 19 y/o now has worlds more experience and is aware of worlds more options than at that period. A young person now would not experience or know of the limited possibilities that seemingly were the options. Am not saying that other things did not play into his decision to marry, just that they were not as primary.
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To think of BBM as making an explicit moral statement is to misunderstand the movie completely, IMO. One of the great powers of the story/movie is that it does not pass judgement on anyone -- not on Jack, Ennis, Alma, Lureen, Aguirre, Jack Twist, Randall, etc. Depending on your point of view, BBM can speak many messages. But I do think the BBM calls each of us to feel compassion for the common humanity that all of us share with each of the characters.
It may be a story of tortured love, but it is love nonetheless. And when does love ever come easy? To love flippantly -- to love without pain or the risk of pain: that is NOT love by any other name.
Well said Thomas :)
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Another moralistic view, and one I have read many times, is that Ennis's and Jack's relationship is outside the law. They are both married, but are having an "affair" which, in the end, harms everybody involved. It makes no difference that they are both men. Just the fact that they are carrying on with someone other than their lawful wedded partners is enough for the moralistic right to loath this movie. Unfortunately, this is the only view some people have.
Although I don't hold with this view, I think an argument can be made that this movie is about the one great romance that comes in a person's life. Ennis and Jack are thrown together by circumstances beyond their control, are attracted, act upon that attraction, separate, but get back together again and carry on for the rest of their life until tragedy strikes.
This interpretation goes along with the by-line of the movie - "Love is a force of nature". in other words, it is out of their control. Something (nature, fate, karma) is acting upon them and they are just responding mindlessly to the impetus forced upon them.
How many more interpretations are there? Do they ever end?
Hello manhattangirl. As weas said in previous posts, I believe Ennis did both: he tried to stick with convention early on, but ended up using convention as a way to keep Jack at bay. Again, this is not surprising, since this happens so many times in real life and people are not so simplistic as to have only one reason for doing what they do. People do things for various reasons -- some more openly, and others surreptitiously. There is no contradiction in thinking that Ennis desired to stick to convention as well as well as use it as means to keep himself at some distance from Jack later in life.
To think of BBM as making an explicit moral statement is to misunderstand the movie completely, IMO. One of the great powers of the story/movie is that it does not pass judgement on anyone -- not on Jack, Ennis, Alma, Lureen, Aguirre, Jack Twist, Randall, etc. Depending on your point of view, BBM can speak many messages. But I do think the BBM calls each of us to feel compassion for the common humanity that all of us share with each of the characters.
It may be a story of tortured love, but it is love nonetheless. And when does love ever come easy? To love flippantly -- to love without pain or the risk of pain: that is NOT love by any other name.
I'm very sorry if what I posted upset you, I don't mean to hurt anyone, I only want to talk openly about this story we all care so much about. but I won't try and "blow smoke up the you know what " either, I would like be honest and talk openly.
IMO: I wasn't trying to be moralistic when I ask is there two trains of thought in this film. we can take it on face value and not ask any questions. OK, but, sometimes there is questions to be asked, scenes you wonder about. The right and wrong of things. if there is any unseen motives, missed opportunities. That's why I love this site.
Ennis and Jack love each other, and trusted each other, It wasn't a "summer thing" it was much more than that. It lasted for twenty years, my marriage didn't last that long. but what motivated them to continue against all odds. and how did it effect them in long run?
Remember the scene in restaurant and Ennis sitting alone eating the pie. Watch it again, look at his body language see him slowly chewing, his head down. He looks as if he fading away. This a pain scene to watch, because we all know what wrong, and what is missing in his life, but he couldn't get pass that fear he has. (this goes to your thread Lamusica, unspoken moments).
All I wanted to know is at what price love, and the what happens to the lovers and the people around them.
Again I'm very sorry if I offended you.
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Don't think anyone was offended, manhattangirl - personal views are strongly held. Personally feel that we cannot look at any point in BBM without considering the period and location - it is so often overlooked in our analysis. To me BBM is a simple film, period - Ennis marrying was the logical step. But BBM is also imbued with many things left unsaid or unexplored, and so we attempt to do it.
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As Jer said, I don't think anyone was offended- we all have our own views or opinions to share- that's what this place is for. :) I like that we try to "fill in the blanks" and ask questions etc- it adds to the story for me.
In reference to your comment about why they continued for 20 years- my answer is they loved each other- plain and simple. They didn't do it solely for sex- to me you don't go through all that they went through to meet up etc for a coupla high altitude f's- it was love or as tpe said: It may be a story of tortured love, but it is love nonetheless.
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And there is a sense in which why anyone marries anyone is an unanswerable question. sometime it's obvious to those involved but not to others; sometimes others think they can see why. sometimes not. And sometimes those involved, or one of them, starts asking why they are where they are and isn't sure of the answer.
Even now it's quite possible to slide into marriage because it's what's expected of you - among my acquaintances there is a girl who wanted children but seemed to have no prospects of marriage. However, a suitable candidate was found and they married, I think a lot because both mothers, who knew each other, wanted it. The group to which they all belong were approving and the social endorsement made everyone happy at the time. I don't think either member of the couple was in love. Or is now. But they get along, most of the time, and they have a little girl, who seems to be a major link.
That's an aspect of Ennis and Alma in their early years, IMO. That he loved another man, even if he realized it before marrying Alma, was just beyond Ennis's ability to comprehend, much less deal with, while marrying her was what was expected and would be approved. In many ways love is disruptive, demanding and difficult; for Ennis loving Jack was just too much to cope with, other than "way the hell out in the middle of nowhere".
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hmmm...why did ennis marry alma? i'm asking that question myself. its obvious after that trip to brokeback mountain that ennis loves jack as much as jack loves him? there is no reason enough for him to marry alma after that even if he already promised to marry her. maybe he is a man of integrity and does not want to break his promise to her but isn't a marriage without love, a worst then not getting married at all? i guess it is ennis's natural reaction to appear normal after all that 'action' up on the mountain but still it does not justify his action. he hurt alot of ppl by doing that...including jack... :\'(
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I'm very sorry if what I posted upset you, I don't mean to hurt anyone, I only want to talk openly about this story we all care so much about. but I won't try and "blow smoke up the you know what " either, I would like be honest and talk openly.
IMO: I wasn't trying to be moralistic when I ask is there two trains of thought in this film. we can take it on face value and not ask any questions. OK, but, sometimes there is questions to be asked, scenes you wonder about. The right and wrong of things. if there is any unseen motives, missed opportunities. That's why I love this site.
Ennis and Jack love each other, and trusted each other, It wasn't a "summer thing" it was much more than that. It lasted for twenty years, my marriage didn't last that long. but what motivated them to continue against all odds. and how did it effect them in long run?
Remember the scene in restaurant and Ennis sitting alone eating the pie. Watch it again, look at his body language see him slowly chewing, his head down. He looks as if he fading away. This a pain scene to watch, because we all know what wrong, and what is missing in his life, but he couldn't get pass that fear he has. (this goes to your thread Lamusica, unspoken moments).
All I wanted to know is at what price love, and the what happens to the lovers and the people around them.
Again I'm very sorry if I offended you.
manhattangirl , why do you apologize when we should thank you are carrying this dialogue to a whole new level? Don't think that people here take differences and opinions personally -- thay had better not. ;)
Certainly I understood that you were not trying to be moralistic, and I just stated that to do so would be to miss out on BBM. It is good that you bring up this point, as I am sure many people do try to draw a moral out of everything.
Yes, Ennis looked wasted in that scene with Cassie. And we indeed know why.
I happened to be rereading yesterday night the final section of Brideshead Revisited, where Lord Marchmain lies dying. There he is described as wasting away -- because he is struggling against his fear of death.
I think the same thing can be said about Ennis -- he is wasting away because he is struggling against his fear of true love. He has been battling it all those 20 years, through his marriage and divorce with Alma and through his ever increasing sense of alienation and isolation. In the end, he himself admitted that he cannot stand it anymore. What is it that he cannot, stand.
I think it is this: a life of pretense. It is a pretense to be like other people -- to be conventional, if you will. Ennis didn't aim for anything high: he just wanted to be like everyone else. That is the reason, I think, why he pushed through with his marriage with Alma. And that is why he resisted living a good life with Jack. Even though he knew where his love lay, he was afraid, because it lay in a place that went against the grain. It is the struggle between the need to be like everybody else and his love for Jack that lies at the heart of Ennis's suffering.
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Love denied over so many years poisioned Ennis and destroyed even the affection for Alma that had led to their marriage.
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Love denied over so many years poisioned Ennis and destroyed even the affection for Alma that had led to their marriage.
Yes. The denial of love poisons the soul. No amount of pretense will keep unhappiness at bay, as in the case of Ennis's marriage with Alma.
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Thank you Tpe,
I read Brideshead a few years ago, and what you said took my breathe away, now I'm going to read Brokeback again, using my heart, this time. Hope we all keep having conversations like this.
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I look forward to more of your thoughts, manhattangirl.
In a sense, it was the next logical step, no? To drive the wooden stake straight to the heart of his "forbidden" love. Marriage to Alma was perhaps a form of emotional exorcism for Ennis. But I guess Ennis didn't realize that the heart was his Heart. The soul was his Soul. The next logical step was pretty much a call to suicide -- and a slow wasting one at that.
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Ennis believes that marraige is "normal" - it's what he asks about Jack's marriage. And he wants to be "normal".
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In a sense, it was the next logical step, no? To drive the wooden stake straight to the heart of his "forbidden" love. Marriage to Alma was perhaps a form of emotional exorcism for Ennis. But I guess Ennis didn't realize that the heart was his Heart. The soul was his Soul. The next logical step was pretty much a call to suicide -- and a slow wasting one at that.
And the pain that slow suicide cause him was too exquisite, he never stopped, he couldn't stop seeing Jack. You can say that marriage to Alma was almost a retreat from something he couldn't bare. Being with Jack, loving him, making love to him, his need for him was too overwhelming. And in Ennis' mind there some unseen force in the world outside of them, that could and would destroy them.
Marriage to Alma, was a stop-gap from that "bad thing" from happening. His intention in marrying Alma in the beginning was something he wanted to do, because he did think it was love and that's what you should do, marry, but after that summer with Jack, it was different. In Jack, he found out the meaning of love, sex, and the need for both. The conflict began.
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I do agree with you that before meeting Jack, Ennis thought he was in love with Alma. He was sincere in this belief, I suspect. He didn't know any better. His brother married, so he assumed that he should do the same. Jack complicated the comfortable illusion of marriage and love.
There is something very typical in how Ennis couldn't live without seeing Jack, and yet insisted that they live apart and lead conventional lives. How many of us here have dealt with this situation in our own lives? I suspect many of us did and many of us do. It is all too human.
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In a sense, it was the next logical step, no? To drive the wooden stake straight to the heart of his "forbidden" love. Marriage to Alma was perhaps a form of emotional exorcism for Ennis. But I guess Ennis didn't realize that the heart was his Heart. The soul was his Soul. The next logical step was pretty much a call to suicide -- and a slow wasting one at that.
I completely agree. Ennis tried to go on with his life as if that summer had never happened, as if he could erase it by marrying Alma and settling into a nice "normal" life. As if that would drive Jack out of his memory forever. And, well, we all know how that worked out.
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I completely agree. Ennis tried to go on with his life as if that summer had never happened, as if he could erase it by marrying Alma and settling into a nice "normal" life. As if that would drive Jack out of his memory forever. And, well, we all know how that worked out.
Yes.
How could he have known that he would not be able to dispel his love for Jack with his marriage with Alma? It was a one-shot thing, no? Or so he thought.
This calls to mind an old thread dealing with what would have happened to Ennis had Jack not sent him the postcard after 4 years...
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Ennis believes that marraige is "normal" - it's what he asks about Jack's marriage. And he wants to be "normal".
Alma sees them kissing, "say good bye to normal". Ennis marriage fell apart, and he didn't know why. Alma knew, there was no way she could compete, how could she. So she kept quiet, and he went on his trips, even then she wondered maybe it wasn't what she thought, she left note on the end of the fishing line, that never saw water.
We have to be fair, Alma, was caught up in something beyond her control, but unlike Ennis, she could fix it, she ended the marriage, painful, unwanted though it was she did it, and found her safe place with the supermarket guy.
Ennis was so caught up in his own pain, he couldn't see what it was doing to Alma, or even himself. He stood there looking dazed and confused at the divorce hearing. (tpe, was Ennis like Julia, harboring his little sin until it destroyed every thing around him?)
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I think Alma fell out of love with Ennis. By the time their marriage ended, she was ready to admit defeat and move on. The expression on her face at the divorce hearing is priceless. She is completely undone -- sad, mad, at her wits end. I do believe she loved him early on in the relationship and probably would have loved him throughout their lives if it hadn't been for that kiss she witnessed. The kiss and everything that happened afterward ( running off to meet Jack, never taking a vacation with her or the kids, never really being "present" in the marriage) killed that love slowly but surely. I think she is to be pitied. The grocer saved her -- reinstated her feeling of worth.
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I think Alma fell out of love with Ennis. By the time their marriage ended, she was ready to admit defeat and move on. The expression on her face at the divorce hearing is priceless. She is completely undone -- sad, mad, at her wits end. I do believe she loved him early on in the relationship and probably would have loved him throughout their lives if it hadn't been for that kiss she witnessed. The kiss and everything that happened afterward ( running off to meet Jack, never taking a vacation with her or the kids, never really being "present" in the marriage) killed that love slowly but surely. I think she is to be pitied. The grocer saved her -- reinstated her feeling of worth.
Yes, you feel unsure of yourself, especially as a woman, and this was pre-Oprah. I couldn't help but think if he had relented and taken her to that Church Social, or got that better job at the electric plant, she might have stay with him in spite of everything she saw, sad though it seemed, you can't believe what kind of concessions one can make to hold on to what little they have.
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I think Alma fell out of love with Ennis. By the time their marriage ended, she was ready to admit defeat and move on. The expression on her face at the divorce hearing is priceless. She is completely undone -- sad, mad, at her wits end. I do believe she loved him early on in the relationship and probably would have loved him throughout their lives if it hadn't been for that kiss she witnessed. The kiss and everything that happened afterward ( running off to meet Jack, never taking a vacation with her or the kids, never really being "present" in the marriage) killed that love slowly but surely. I think she is to be pitied. The grocer saved her -- reinstated her feeling of worth.
I do believe that Alma was very bitter in the end, while Ennis was sad because of the loss of the family as he knew it. Had Ennis known that it would come to an end this way, would he have married Alma in the first place? I suspect not. THis certainly was apparent with his dealings with Cassie. Once burned...
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I think he also realized the second time around that marriage could be expensive - one of the reasons for his later poverty was the years of child-support payments, but you never think of things like that when you start out. Alma I think by the end was just tired of Ennis's constant negatives and constantly struggling against the poverty for which she (rightly, to some extent) blamed him.
I think they were both very young when they married and even without the irruption of Jack might not have survived as a couple.
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I think he also realized the second time around that marriage could be expensive - one of the reasons for his later poverty was the years of child-support payments, but you never think of things like that when you start out. Alma I think by the end was just tired of Ennis's constant negatives and constantly struggling against the poverty for which she (rightly, to some extent) blamed him.
I think they were both very young when they married and even without the irruption of Jack might not have survived as a couple.
That is an interesting opinion, because I see to recall old posts wherein some members said the same thi: they believed that Ennis's and Alma's marriage was doomed even without Jack entering the picture.
A person'e true nature and true unhappiness cannot be hidden for long. I believ Ennis was fated to love Jack because of something in his nature that sought it out.
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A person'e true nature and true unhappiness cannot be hidden for long. I believ Ennis was fated to love Jack because of something in his nature that sought it out.
With him fighting that true nature, was ultimate war he raged with himself?
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With him fighting that true nature, was ultimate war he raged with himself?
Yes. I do believe that BBM is essentially Ennis's story of interior struggle. Yes, it was a war he could not win against himself. This is why he went ahead with his marriage with Alma and resisted Jack's desire for a sweet life together. My opinion. :)
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Yes. I do believe that BBM is essentially Ennis's story of interior struggle. Yes, it was a war he could not win against himself. This is why he went ahead with his marriage with Alma and resisted Jack's desire for a sweet life together. My opinion. :)
I agree, thomas, but the thing that shakes me up is that I don't think Ennis is aware of the battle within himself. That makes me wonder how often we all have battles and don't realize it. I don't think Ennis could have verbalized his feelings to anyone, including himself. I find this to be one of the pluses of the movie. Ennis's character is so finely tuned that we can all see ourselves in him. By analyzing him so closely, as we do in these discussions, we are analyzing ourselves--- our motives, our impulses, our needs, our demons, etc. Make sense?
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I agree, thomas, but the thing that shakes me up is that I don't think Ennis is aware of the battle within himself. That makes me wonder how often we all have battles and don't realize it. I don't think Ennis could have verbalized his feelings to anyone, including himself. I find this to be one of the pluses of the movie. Ennis's character is so finely tuned that we can all see ourselves in him. By analyzing him so closely, as we do in these discussions, we are analyzing ourselves--- our motives, our impulses, our needs, our demons, etc. Make sense?
It makes sense, although I would venture to say that even if Ennis may not have been fully conscious about the struggle, he nonetheless reacted almost instinctively to keep his balance: in this case, pushing away Jack and marrying Alma. His not fully understanding this struggle within himself is the source of all his angst and unhappiness.
Ennis does mirror us in this regard. We all have our own inner conflicts. Although we learn to live with them, we never fully resolve or understand most of them. If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it. That is so Ennis: stand it; don't try to understand it.
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Which is another way in which Ennis reflects the stereotypical Western man - strong, silent, stoic, never introspective, communicative or analytical. So perhaps he'd have been happier as a loner if he hadn't met alma and lived in a conventional society?
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Which is another way in which Ennis reflects the stereotypical Western man - strong, silent, stoic, never introspective, communicative or analytical. So perhaps he'd have been happier as a loner if he hadn't met alma and lived in a conventional society?
There is more to a grain of truth in Jr.'s comment to Cassie about her father: he's not the marrying kind.
I wonder too if he would have been happier alone, by himself, from the beginning. He certainly ended up that way...
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There is more to a grain of truth in Jr.'s comment to Cassie about her father: he's not the marrying kind.
I wonder too if he would have been happier alone, by himself, from the beginning. He certainly ended up that way...
he may have ended up alone but at least he felt what its like to love someone and be loved in return. in the end, thats what matter most...if he he had been alone from the beginning, the storyline would've been different. would he have met jack then? since ennis may have went on that trip as a last trip for him to be alone with nature, to say goodbye to being alone for the rest of his life. i believe that everything happens for a reason...if ennis had been alone from the beginning, it would have been worse for him. at least now without jack, he still have alma jr and jenny and not completely alone.
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Which is another way in which Ennis reflects the stereotypical Western man - strong, silent, stoic, never introspective, communicative or analytical. So perhaps he'd have been happier as a loner if he hadn't met alma and lived in a conventional society?
Additional thoughts:
It is the stereotypical Western man with a twist, no? (No pun intended.) Ennis is surprisingly complex. None of his worthy predecessors approach his angst and emotional complexity, I believe.
On the surface, he seems conventional enough, as his marriage showed. There was love in that marriage, for sure, and he did not exactly abandon Alma for good when Jack appeared. I am sure he felt the tug on both directions, and trying to go both directions only tore him apart. Such are the limits of convention.
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he may have ended up alone but at least he felt what its like to love someone and be loved in return. in the end, thats what matter most...if he he had been alone from the beginning, the storyline would've been different. would he have met jack then? since ennis may have went on that trip as a last trip for him to be alone with nature, to say goodbye to being alone for the rest of his life. i believe that everything happens for a reason...if ennis had been alone from the beginning, it would have been worse for him. at least now without jack, he still have alma jr and jenny and not completely alone.
I do agree. To expereince love made all the difference.
But if they had never met each other again after 63, would the memory of that brief summer of love sufficed? I think this was Ennis's original intentions. By marrying Alma, he aimed at a more conventional life thererafter, perhaps nourished by the remembrance of that brief unconventional love.
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I do agree. To expereince love made all the difference.
But if they had never met each other again after 63, would the memory of that brief summer of love sufficed? I think this was Ennis's original intentions. By marrying Alma, he aimed at a more conventional life thererafter, perhaps nourished by the remembrance of that brief unconventional love.
if ennis and jack never met again after '63, ennis would have pushed the memory of their time together to the back of his mind and tried convincing himself again and again that he did not felt what he did. conventional as it is to marry alma, it is not love and it is not what both of them deserve. everyone deserves to be happy and so does ennis and alma. no one should marry for any reason other than they love each other so much, they can't bear to live another day without seeing the other person--they want to see each other first thing in the morning when they wake up and the last thing they see before they sleep. that's my definition of love and that's what i see in jack and ennis's relationship but it seems that their relationship is not meant to be. gay or not, it's still love....there's no denying that
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if ennis and jack never met again after '63, ennis would have pushed the memory of their time together to the back of his mind and tried convincing himself again and again that he did not felt what he did. conventional as it is to marry alma, it is not love and it is not what both of them deserve. everyone deserves to be happy and so does ennis and alma. no one should marry for any reason other than they love each other so much, they can't bear to live another day without seeing the other person--they want to see each other first thing in the morning when they wake up and the last thing they see before they sleep. that's my definition of love and that's what i see in jack and ennis's relationship but it seems that their relationship is not meant to be. gay or not, it's still love....there's no denying that
No denying it, to be sure. It could be pushed back to some remote recess of the mind, but it can't be killed by a life of convention.
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Disregarding the SS ,which I am not aware if the following scene I refer was written,I strongly beleieve Alma and Ennis were truly in love,simply by judging their interactions between themselves during the sleding scene.
They ACTED like honeymooners in love. Ennis looked lovinly into Alma's eyes and lightly brushed the bridge of her nose in an affectionate manner. So my gut feeling is he married her because he truly felt he was in love with her.
What confuses me,according to the Claudes Place interview of Ang Lee, his opinion of Ennis sexuality is gay,in spite of the fact he believes Annie Proulx left his sexuality ambiguious.
So what purpose did it serve to provide the sledding scene?
Proulx's ambiguity does not invalidate Ang Lee's belief that Ennis was gay, of course. ;)
As is discussed in amy other threads, it was (and is) not uncommon for gays to be married and appear to have loving relationships with their wives. In the past of course, marrying was simply a logical next step that they had to do in order to pay lip service to the conventions of society. Their true feeling found expression elsewhere...
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No siree bob,it sure dosen't. However, Ang admission that Annies purpose was for Ennis sexuality to be ambiguous makes it just that... ambiguous. His opinon is also just that..his opinion His being a director of the film doesn't make his opinion hold more weight than any other.
This is true. We are left to draw our own conclusions.
By all means it's a true statement but this in of itself does not confirm without a doubt Ennis sexuality.It is also not uncommon for very happily married men to be involved with other very happily married men who satisfy both partners.
Yes, here we can only deal with possibilities. And in life, there are endless possibilities, no? As I have said many times before, the power of story and film lies in the ambiguity.
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HiAltshag:
Great pics. If Ennis found himself in the position he was in, it's on Ennis. If his wife got tired of scrubbing clothes in a sink on wash board, and may I remind you in the 1960's, and she was smart enough to get Ennis to live over a laundry, I'd would say "You Go Girlfriend", she was getting things done.
And what was this dream, he wasn't exactly a Ben Cartwright, I didn't hear him speak of a Ponderosa, or anything like that. I would say he liked moving from ranch to ranch. If he wanted his own, he would have gotten a loan, and set up his own homestead, but did he, I don't think so. If Ennis was truly driven he would have gotten father then where he finally wound up, living in a trailer, heck that was not Alma's fault, she's got a house.
He protects his family, no medals are warrented here, that is what he suppose to do.
He loved his kids, you have to say that for him, but did he love Alma? Look when we're young and we think we're in love, we sure as hell look the part. But beneath it all what was is there? When Alma and Ennis are in bed, she pulls him to her, "come here" she whispers to him, and what does he do, promptly flips her over and have his way with her, she doesn't like it or want it.
And I still say he should have taken Alma to that church social instead of watching "Starsky and Hutch", even kissing Jack at the bottom of the stairs he might have still have a home to go to.
HiAltShag, Your points are very compelling, but I like to look underneath the surface of things. It like looking in a very nice neighborhood that you dream of living in, with all the pretty houses with the white picket fences and tree lined streets. But what is really underneath? That's what I look for.
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Dear HiAltShag:
You totally flipped the question, giving it another meaning altogether, "THAT IS SO GREAT!!!!!".
To love Ennis, to truly love him, you do have to understand him and his limitations, his needs, his fears.
Remember when he told Jack when they were on Brokeback, about his life, Jack said remarked "That's more words you spoke in the past two weeks" when Ennis replied, "Hell, that's the most I've said in a year." Think about that.
What in the heck did he talk to Alma about? Did she ever talked about his goals, his dreams? Did she really know the man she loved, or was he just the man she was going to marry?
She knew how limited he was in education, did she understand that might have affected how he might have seen himself, and try assure him that he's better man then what he thinks he is?
Did she understand how limited he was in expressing his thoughts, his feeling didn't she just listen to him, and help build that confidence that let him know, the words may not be Shakespeare, but she understood them.
Did she understand the expressions on face and what they meant?
Did she show him how to make love, and not just have sex?
Did she ever tell him you don't ask if your kids want a push on a swing, but you go up and just push them.
Did she make him the priority in her life, show him that he is and most importantly make him believe it ? No, she didn't.
On this I agree with you. May be if she did love him, honestly, with open eyes, and an open heart, what could have been the possibilities?
I have another question, Do you think Jack saw the real Ennis, or was he too projecting his needs on him also?
PS: When I call you friend, I mean it in the best sense of the word, I hope we can be friends.
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Imo It was a huge mistake on Ennis's part or Jack for that matter to get married. These are matters of the heart. Ennis's heart was already claimed, SIGNED,SEALED and DELIVERED to Jack Twist. He owned it and no matter how much Alma dreamed it was'nt gonna happen for her with Ennis. I won't go so far as to say he did'nt love her, but his heart just was'nt in this marriage therefore there was no incentive to do for Alma any better than he did. No passion or emotional connection present with her. ( Hell, he thought about Jack during sex with her!) It was even more evident in the reunion scenes where Ennis's passions lie. We see Alma as what she really was to Ennis, a cover, a mask to hide behind from a closed minded and potentially dangerous society. When Jack arrived, to Ennis it was ALL Jack and Alma was left in the wind. To her credit she did try to talk him into finding better jobs , but no matter where he and Alma lived Jack Twist would remain in the picture so this marriage was doomed from the beginning really. My thoughts.
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Imo It was a huge mistake on Ennis's part or Jack for that matter to get married. These are matters of the heart. Ennis's heart was already claimed, SIGNED,SEALED and DELIVERED to Jack Twist. He owned it and no matter how much Alma dreamed it was'nt gonna happen for her with Ennis. I won't go so far as to say he did'nt love her, but his heart just was'nt in this marriage therefore there was no incentive to do for Alma any better than he did. No passion or emotional connection present with her. ( Hell, he thought about Jack during sex with her!) It was even more evident in the reunion scenes where Ennis's passions lie. We see Alma as what she really was to Ennis, a cover, a mask to hide behind from a closed minded and potentially dangerous society. When Jack arrived, to Ennis it was ALL Jack and Alma was left in the wind. To her credit she did try to talk him into finding better jobs , but no matter where he and Alma lived Jack Twist would remain in the picture so this marriage was doomed from the beginning really. My thoughts.
You're absolutely right in all you have said. But, think of the times that men were living in. to run off in the sunset hand in hand, was not an option, or so they thought. They were bound to each other more than they themselves understood, and that's the heartbreaking part of their story.
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Yes, it was very different back then compared to today, but yet still people have to hide their love away as we speak. I think they both knew what was at stake in the relationship as they both had givin up so much for it. Like an old married couple,the cost had been counted a long time ago but the results was never balanced out, equally on both sides of the scale. Back then even holding hands, let alone walk lovingly along a beach like any other couple would have been quite dangerous. Ennis was right in a sense that they would be open to ridicule and prejudice and even bodily harm and that is very unfortunate and unfair. Living on hope, wishes and assumptions does not change people's behavior and backwards thinking. I think they'd have had a better chance, ( not much better though) if they could've left Riverton,as Jack sugessted and found somewhere else to live together, maybe Mexico? And it's warm there (for Jack) with lots of ranches.( for Ennis) Perfect. But they still had options I think, and very hard choices. Unfortunatly Jack paid the cost with his life, if Ennis's assumptions were right. When will people wake up and realize that love IS a force of nature. We can't control who we fall in love with , It's just human nature. IMHO.
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Imo It was a huge mistake on Ennis's part or Jack for that matter to get married. These are matters of the heart. Ennis's heart was already claimed, SIGNED,SEALED and DELIVERED to Jack Twist. He owned it and no matter how much Alma dreamed it was'nt gonna happen for her with Ennis. I won't go so far as to say he did'nt love her, but his heart just was'nt in this marriage therefore there was no incentive to do for Alma any better than he did. No passion or emotional connection present with her. ( Hell, he thought about Jack during sex with her!) It was even more evident in the reunion scenes where Ennis's passions lie. We see Alma as what she really was to Ennis, a cover, a mask to hide behind from a closed minded and potentially dangerous society. When Jack arrived, to Ennis it was ALL Jack and Alma was left in the wind. To her credit she did try to talk him into finding better jobs , but no matter where he and Alma lived Jack Twist would remain in the picture so this marriage was doomed from the beginning really. My thoughts.
Yes, I thought tha marriages became major obstacles in the end. But I also think that withough these marriages, perhaps it would have been more difficult to conceal their meetings over the years? The marriages acted like smoke screens, and it is in keeping with what gay men had been doing for ages -- marrying in order to look normal in the eyes of society. In that sense, we probably can't blame Ennis and Jack too much for making this mistake... But a mistake it was, IMO.
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Imo It was a huge mistake on Ennis's part or Jack for that matter to get married. These are matters of the heart. Ennis's heart was already claimed, SIGNED,SEALED and DELIVERED to Jack Twist. He owned it and no matter how much Alma dreamed it was'nt gonna happen for her with Ennis. I won't go so far as to say he did'nt love her, but his heart just was'nt in this marriage therefore there was no incentive to do for Alma any better than he did. No passion or emotional connection present with her. ( Hell, he thought about Jack during sex with her!) It was even more evident in the reunion scenes where Ennis's passions lie. We see Alma as what she really was to Ennis, a cover, a mask to hide behind from a closed minded and potentially dangerous society. When Jack arrived, to Ennis it was ALL Jack and Alma was left in the wind. To her credit she did try to talk him into finding better jobs , but no matter where he and Alma lived Jack Twist would remain in the picture so this marriage was doomed from the beginning really. My thoughts.
you're absolutely right! i couldn't agree with you more especially the signed, sealed and delivered part. if ennis had just asked jack to stay after their summer up the mountain, i knew he'd agree without a question. the only thing that's stopping them from having a relationship is ennis himself....sigh...they could be sooooo happy if only ennis forget about his fears for one second and follow his heart. i was hoping that jack would stop the truck and tell ennis that he's making the biggest mistake of his life and he would live to regret it or that ennis would run after jack. seeing jack look back at ennis in the rearview mirror and doing nothing was pure torture....i started crying then.....
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In the short story Ennis recognized one thing a long while after they split up in the summer of '63 which caused his breakdown:
"Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
This was said by Ennis in the motel scene in the short story. If he didn't understand what he was feeling, his marriage to Alma was inevitable, it was the next logical step in his mind. We have to understand that he was not exactly an introspective guy. What really burns me is his battle with Jack after that. Jack's "Short leash" charge to Ennis was the most truest statement ever said. He couldn't let Jack go, but he wanted to keep his image as a "married man". What really could he have done?
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In th ss Ennis recognized one thing a long while after they split up in the summer of '63 which caused his breakdown:
"Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by a long, long while."
This was said by Ennis in the motel scene in the ss. If he didn't understand what he was feeling, his marriage to Alma was inevitable, it was the next logical step in his mind. We have to understand that he was not exactly an introspective guy. What really burns me is his battle with Jack after that. Jack's "Short leash" charge to Ennis was the most truest statement ever said. He couldn't let Jack go, but he wanted to keep his image as a "married man". What really could he have done?
Beautifully said, manhattangirl. I do think that was quite a significant statement coming from Ennis. It tells us a lot about him and how he was faighting with himself even as he went through the motions of getting married and becoming a family man. I guess this means that he had hoped that marriage would "cure" him of his love for Jack. This way, we see him view marriage as a way out of what he couldn't deal with within himself.
I don't think Ennis intentionally kept Jack on a short leash. It seemed that he had thought that both of them had to live up to their role as family men first and foremost. IMO, I think trying to have it both ways ended up not finding fulfillment in either one.
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I don't feel the short lease was intentional either, but did Ennis really want to be "cured"? Surely after even 10 years, let alone 20 he found fulfillment in this affair, although He could'nt admit to himself that he loved another man or commit totally to him openly. Seems to me he felt like he "owed" Alma in his promise to marry her even after Brokeback, but deep in his heart , it was Jack, and his daughters who gave his life meaning. Alma was forced into a role unbeknown to her until she saw the infamous kiss. Only then did she realize that Ennis was'nt in this marriage for her alone. The passion she saw in that kiss left no doubt who really had his heart. I don't really understand why she stayed as long as she did after seeing it, holding this secret in. Probably for the girls' sake, she resolved to let it go on and suffered in silenced and continued to be intimate with him. When the postcards came from Jack through the years ,she could have hid or destroyed them behind Ennis's back or SOMETHING....but she did'nt. WHY? if she had ANY desire or chance to save her marriage to Ennis. Was she really that dim? She never even tried to fight for him, not that it would have done any good. My humble opinion
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There's an element of her looking like a bird confronted by a snake and too terrified to move about Alma after that kiss. She does nothing because she doesn't know what to do, then the longer it goes on the more difficult it becomes to raise the whole thing, so she never does. At least, not until she's long gone from Ennis and has the safety of her new home, marriage, husband to rely on.
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I agree. It was only after marriage to Monroe and the security of a new home did she finally get the strength to confront Ennis -- and reluctantly, at that! Had Ennis not poked her where it hurt (about being "burned"), she probably would have not come out in the open.
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I suppose she still loved him as well, but she did have family. She had options rather than suffer alone in this. I am reminded of the scene where she comes home with the mail, goes through it to find another postcard from Jack. Here she has a chance , knowing what she knows to nip this "fishing trip" in the bud. I can't beleive she 's that naive.Maybe she feared Ennis....or even Jack. I feel so sorry for her.
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I suppose she still loved him as well, but she did have family. She had options rather than suffer alone in this. I am reminded of the scene where she comes home with the mail, goes through it to find another postcard from Jack. Here she has a chance , knowing what she knows to nip this "fishing trip" in the bud. I can't beleive she 's that naive.Maybe she feared Ennis....or even Jack. I feel so sorry for her.
Yes, I did think it was her fear of Ennis. Remember that we hear the sound of Ennis's truck when she was inspecting the postcard. That's why she put it back into the pile, no? She didn't want Ennis to know that she had seen it.
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I never noticed the truck sound. The girl needed a friend. So good advice?
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She knew what the postcard meant but she had no idea what to do about it. After all, what could she say? She knew Ennis - it's noticeable that she attacks him over Jack only when she has Monroe to protect her. I don't think she'd have risked it earlier.
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I was thinking that post-reunion, Ennis and Alma knew enough to know that the marriage was no longer the same. In a sense, I don't think Ennis didn't have to be confronted by Alma -- even if he knew that she knew, he probably wouldn't have cared to change things.
It is at this point that we know that what kept things going was the sense of family that both Ennis and Alma cherished. Why did they stay married for so long? Because it was still the logical thing to do: keep holding on to the one thing that both had wanted most dearly in the first place: a sense of belonging to a family.
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At the risk of sounding cynical, I think it was also economics. This is a society where the man goes out to work and the woman looks after the children. In the early years Alma is dependent on Ennis. He evidently resents her working despite the fact that they need the money, since he sees woman's role as that of the housewife. As long as she stays, she is that and also his camouflage. Alma, with no other options, can't challenge Ennis over Jack; she sticks with him for nearly eight years before divorcing him (I wish we knew the grounds) but by then the girls are bigger and less dependant, she has an income of her own and Monroe is there as a prospective husband.
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WW that point is absolutely not cynical. Divorce it something you have to plan, especially when you have kids. You must be sure you can be economically viable when you leave a marriage, and notice there was no mention of alimony only child support . Those eight years after the Kiss, Alma must have felt trapped, living in a home with a man she didn't know or understand. Trying to figure out does he want me or does he want to be with a man. A man, not another woman, she probably could fight against that but how could she deal with the fact her husband wants a man. Monroe gave her a job, so she had her own money, and then a life.
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I will raise a question here. Had Ennis and Alma been more "worldly" or "sophisticated", wouldn't they have suffered less in the intervening years between the reunion and the divorce? I think one of the problems here was that Alma, in her natural simplicity, continued to love Ennis and consider herself bound to him because of the children and their marriage. Her bitterness ate her up inside. She was incapabale of developing the same indifference that glazed over Lureen in the later years, no? I think this trait differentiates Lureen and Alma more than their economic disparity -- except if you choose to draw a correlation between wealth and worldliness.
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Or of course you could say that Lureen was more cynical than Alma - she got what she wanted from Jack, a son to carry on the business and a good salesman, not to mention a man who maybe didn't make many demands on her because his mind was fixed elsewhere but who was useful and presentable on social occasions. Anyway, Lureen gets her fun from watching the money mount up, using her adding machine as Jack says.
I think Alma loses interest in Ennis, who never accedes to any of her requests and opposes her working. She evidently blames him for their straitened circumstances, and she may grasp something of why he's so unkeen on getting a steady job. He appears not to want to share any leisure activities with her but always drops everything for the regular meetings with Jack. so I think it becomes obvious that he doesn't love her, and if she did love him early on, she doesn't much in the years after the reunion.
[Anyway, no-one who wears such depressing grungy cardigans is going to get any sympathy from me!]
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Or of course you could say that Lureen was more cynical than Alma - she got what she wanted from Jack, a son to carry on the business and a good salesman, not to mention a man who maybe didn't make many demands on her because his mind was fixed elsewhere but who was useful and presentable on social occasions. Anyway, Lureen gets her fun from watching the money mount up, using her adding machine as Jack says.
I think Alma loses interest in Ennis, who never accedes to any of her requests and opposes her working. She evidently blames him for their straitened circumstances, and she may grasp something of why he's so unkeen on getting a steady job. He appears not to want to share any leisure activities with her but always drops everything for the regular meetings with Jack. so I think it becomes obvious that he doesn't love her, and if she did love him early on, she doesn't much in the years after the reunion.
[Anyway, no-one who wears such depressing grungy cardigans is going to get any sympathy from me!]
I do think however that Alma should have not been more visibly hurt in the end if she no longer loved Ennis, no? Lureem certainly was in "better" shape after Jack died, although discovering the "truth" probably hurt her also.
So I would have to say that Alma still probably had some love for Ennis in the end -- just enough for it to hurt.
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These are both excellent points. I personally don't think that Lureen was as totally emotionally dependent on Jack. With a strong personality of her own, she was going to make it on her own if she had to. Probably had somewhat of a social support circle of freinds etc.. of some kind, abd would maitain somewhat of the upper hand on her life, not to mention a wealthy father who thought the world of her. She was bound to be more confident and more independent than Alma. Although, I think Lureen displayed a little bitterness later on herself, the difference in how both coped with their husbands "fishing trips" depended on culture and personal upbringing. Alma went on being the dutiful housewife, while Lureen sought solace through her work. Worlds apart, a world of difference.
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These are both excellent points. I personally don't think that Lureen was as totally emotionally dependent on Jack. With a strong personality of her own, she was going to make it on her own if she had to. Probably had somewhat of a social support circle of freinds etc.. of some kind, abd would maitain somewhat of the upper hand on her life, not to mention a wealthy father who thought the world of her. She was bound to be more confident and more independent than Alma. Although, I think Lureen displayed a little bitterness later on herself, the difference in how both coped with their husbands "fishing trips" depended on culture and personal upbringing. Alma went on being the dutiful housewife, while Lureen sought solace through her work. Worlds apart, a world of difference.
Excellent distinction, aintfoolin. Both did have different mechanisms of coping with their disappointments. Wonderful observations.
However, I think one more difference between ALma and Lureen is that in the case of Lureen and Jack, it was Lureen who first started cooling down as far as the marriage was concerned. It seems to me that Jack was a considerate husband and a loving father, even when he became "unfaithful" by his renewed relationship with Ennis. And I do think part of what prompted him to reconnect with Ennis was being treated as an outsider in his own family.
I suspect that Lureen would have drifted apart from jack even if Ennis and jack never reunited...
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Yes. I agree. Jack became just a part of Lureen's life-plan - a husband, a father, a parner in the business - but I don't think she was involved with him emotionally to any great degree after the first few years - her ties to the family, particularly her father, were too strong.
Alma, had Jack never come along, would have stuck doggedly with Ennis, I reckon, looked after the girls, got herself a job, maybe pushed ennis into something better-paid and more steady - Alma'a pretty conventional and wouldn;t have gone through a divorce unless there was some positive reason.
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Yes. I agree. Jack became just a part of Lureen's life-plan - a husband, a father, a parner in the business - but I don't think she was involved with him emotionally to any great degree after the first few years - her ties to the family, particularly her father, were too strong.
Alma, had Jack never come along, would have stuck doggedly with Ennis, I reckon, looked after the girls, got herself a job, maybe pushed ennis into something better-paid and more steady - Alma'a pretty conventional and wouldn;t have gone through a divorce unless there was some positive reason.
Lureen is certainly a peculiar case (though not that uncommon). Alma represents another group, whereby they enter marriage a bit naively and suffer the more because of it.
Jack was part of Lureen's life plan. IN a sense, Alma was part of Ennis's "logical" plan for a life.
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Ennis did'nt plan on the lasting effects of the experiences with Jack on Brokeback. I think may he tried to push tho whole summer to the back of his mind... In his logical way of thinking, I feel he thought it was the end of a enlighting, but temporary experience. He had promised Alma that he would marry her and was up on Brokeback to prepare financially for their future. While up there he had this life changing experience concerning his sexual inclinations. . Though after the summer ended Ennis explained to Jck that he was still planning to marry Alma after all. Yet Jack let Ennis know that he was coming back to find him again, even after finding Ennis's plans. Jack could'nt have said it any better when he said "Brokeback got us good" The experience solidified something in Ennis . Was'nt sure what or why or how to him. He just knew this "thing" that got him was a feeling he could'nt shake, and was'nt sure he wanted to shake it off. Alma provided an * out* for all his fears and conflicts . Marrying her would get him back to where he * belonged* in his mind, logically. The other part of him must have dying inside standing there with Jack with that *look* on his face. I'm sure some part of him anted to grab Jack and never let go again. Did he love Alma? I think on a certain level. But the feelings he harbored for Jack Twist raised the standard to a higher level than he had for her. IMO opinion he should have went with real gut feeling and stayed with Jack.
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Ennis did'nt plan on the lasting effects of the experiences with Jack on Brokeback. I think may he tried to push tho whole summer to the back of his mind... In his logical way of thinking, I feel he thought it was the end of a enlighting, but temporary experience. He had promised Alma that he would marry her and was up on Brokeback to prepare financially for their future. While up there he had this life changing experience concerning his sexual inclinations. . Though after the summer ended Ennis explained to Jck that he was still planning to marry Alma after all. Yet Jack let Ennis know that he was coming back to find him again, even after finding Ennis's plans. Jack could'nt have said it any better when he said "Brokeback got us good" The experience solidified something in Ennis . Was'nt sure what or why or how to him. He just knew this "thing" that got him was a feeling he could'nt shake, and was'nt sure he wanted to shake it off. Alma provided an * out* for all his fears and conflicts . Marrying her would get him back to where he * belonged* in his mind, logically. The other part of him must have dying inside standing there with Jack with that *look* on his face. I'm sure some part of him anted to grab Jack and never let go again. Did he love Alma? I think on a certain level. But the feelings he harbored for Jack Twist raised the standard to a higher level than he had for her. IMO opinion he should have went with real gut feeling and stayed with Jack.
In many ways, Ennis was a man of his word. I think this sense of honor and duty proved his inevitable undoing...
He thought then that he belonged to Alma, even though his heart belonged to Jack. When does duty give way to affection? When does affection give way to true love?
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I kept waiting for Jack to say" what about us?" what about what we really feel? He continued to feel this after a year had gone by and asked Aguirre of Ennis's wherabouts. He was also true to his words about" I'll be back". Back to find the man who had touched him so deeply a summer ago. Perhaps had he continued to search for Ennis that summer and found him in Riverton, Ennis would have been more receptive as he used Jack's wife and baby back in Texas for an excuse or reason not to leave his. This is of course speculation on my part. In any case this "thing" got a hold of Ennis four years later., outside, in the street with him only taking a little nervous peek around and then almost devouring Jack to Jack's suprise. Alma saw it and saw her husband as never before. Some say that Ennis veiwed the relationship * outside* himself but in this case Ennis knew exactly what he was doing. Out of control in love. Jack being another man here never factored in. He only saw Jack and felt love and a sense of gratefulness that he was finally holding the one he loved so dearly in his arms again. This is the *real* Ennis.in that reunion scene. Alma was totally forgtten the minute he saw Jack again. Judging from the kiss, this was something he craved for a long long time. His lil darlin,... his true love.
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I kept waiting for Jack to say" what about us?" what about what we really feel? He continued to feel this after a year had gone by and asked Aguirre of Ennis's wherabouts. He was also true to his words about" I'll be back". Back to find the man who had touched him so deeply a summer ago. Perhaps had he continued to search for Ennis that summer and found him in Riverton, Ennis would have been more receptive as he used Jack's wife and baby back in Texas for an excuse or reason not to leave his. This is of course speculation on my part. In any case this "thing" got a hold of Ennis four years later., outside, in the street with him only taking a little nervous peek around and then almost devouring Jack to Jack's suprise. Alma saw it and saw her husband as never before. Some say that Ennis veiwed the relationship * outside* himself but in this case Ennis knew exactly what he was doing. Out of control in love. Jack being another man here never factored in. He only saw Jack and felt love and a sense of gratefulness that he was finally holding the one he loved so dearly in his arms again. This is the *real* Ennis.in that reunion scene. Alma was totally forgtten the minute he saw Jack again. Judging from the kiss, this was something he craved for a long long time. His lil darlin,... his true love.
I had wondered why Jack hardly said anything to Ennis in the movie. Even the short story showed Jack a bit more vocal in his disappointment. I had assumed that this was done in the interest of greater understatement and subtlety.
But I guess this goes back to Jack having this understanding that the best way to deal with Ennis was not to be confrontational and abrupt. Jack probably thought that in due time, he would be able to convince Ennis to join him. Again, he underestimated Ennis's inability to cope with his fears.