Author Topic: Why did Ennis marry Alma? Was It Love or the next Logical Step. (Read 55846 times)

manhattangirl · « **on:** Jan 18, 2007, 06:30 PM »

Hi,

You may have gone over this before, but I'm new here so I have a heck of lot of questions.

Why did Ennis marry Alma? I don't think it was love, (on his part anyway), but his next logical step in his mind. Remember, His sister got married and left, and so did his brother, he was alone, Alma even mentioned that in the film. So for him it was the thing to do.

His thoughts on sex with her was interesting I thought, "if you don't want to have any of children, I'll leave you alone." Sex with woman only means babies, WOW! Compare this with the passion he showed when he was with Jack.

His employment, he had kids but never tried to do better, get a better work with more money. He'll quite his job when Jack sent him a postcard. Alma's only requests was that they move to town and live over a laundry, and go to the church social, (he gave in to one, but not the other).

He married Alma, because it was the thing to do. He was protective of Alma, but I doubt that he loved her. His whole being was centered in Jack, and even that tormented him.

tpe · « **Reply #1 on:** Jan 18, 2007, 07:10 PM »

manhattangirl , I am almost sure something like this has been discussed, but I can't find any thread that deals with this topic specifically. So unless we find a similar old thread, we should let this thread stand as is.

I am sure that before meeting Jack, Ennis thought himself to be in love with Alma -- and most likely he was in love. I don't think he married Alma primarily out of desperation or a need to conform. But yes, the need to MARRY Alma must have something to do with what he considered the expectations of society.

He lost his parents early, and he had a miserable childhood. He must have looked forward to marriage, raising a family of his own, and finally having a sense of belonging that he didn't have.

I am also sure that marriage was also part in emulation of his brother, who helped raise him. When his brother married, he had to fend for himself, and it must have entered his mind that he should follow suit so that he finally establishes a place where he truly belongs.

I hope these thoughts make sense. They just skim the surface, I'm sure.

welshwitch · « **Reply #2 on:** Jan 19, 2007, 11:00 AM »

He lost his father and mother together; his sister and brother have both married and he is evidently going to follow the same path. Ennis strikes me as a conventional man who simply does what other people do - you grow up, you strike out on your own, you meet a girl, get engaged, marry, have children, work to support them all.

Once he's engaged to her, he's far too conventional to break the engagement - early on he told Jack he would be getting married when he left the mountain, and as they part he repeats this. He's like a single-track train - once he starts he goes straight down the line with no possibility of deviation.

He presumably he thought he loved Alma - not until he met Jack did he experience the reality of passion. IMO he never felt passion for Alma; she was at base a Jack substitute, second best if that.The honeymoon sequence to me demonstrates just that; they're more like two kids playing, not like two lovers who can't keep their hands off each other. Affection maybe - passion no.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #3 on:** Jan 19, 2007, 11:12 PM »

I think he married Alma because it was what he was supposed to do. I think before Jack he was fine with going with the staus quo and perhaps after he thought it really was a one shot thing that he could move on from it. I'm sure he felt something for Alma but no where near what he felt for Jack. Maybe he thought that going back to life as it was pre-BBM would help him forget. I agree with WW that he is like a single track train. I also think that he wanted to re-affirm to himself that he wasn't queer- if he broke off the engagement because of Jack he'd have to face some truths as well as the inevitable questions from Alma as to why. I don't think he was forced or anything- just doing what was expected of him.

ethan · « **Reply #4 on:** Jan 19, 2007, 11:20 PM »

I too agree with others. Love is such a complicated thing. It is possible that Ennis did love Alma until Jack came into his live.

We don't know what happened before. Given what we know from the movie, Ennis's love for Alma is in no comparison with his to Jack.

I was once close to engage a girl many years ago. I thought I loved her and was completely faithful to her until I met Bubu.

tpe · « **Reply #5 on:** Jan 22, 2007, 11:01 AM »

Quote from: ethan on Jan 19, 2007, 11:20 PM

I was once close to engage a girl many years ago. I thought I loved her and was completely faithful to her until I met Bubu.

It takes just one instance to realize where our love lies. As with you and Ennis, I don't think there was any conscious deception. Ennis must have also thought that he loved Alma above everything else. He didn't plan to fall in love with Jack.

And as in all things in life, there is some degree of momentum before the ship can change course. Ennis had thought that his relationship with Jack was simply a fluke, and that the one we had with Alma was real. How many times have we made the same mistake, and entered into something before we realized where the heart lay?

lamusica · « **Reply #6 on:** Jan 27, 2007, 09:14 PM »

I don't think Ennis ever equated loving Alma and loving Jack. He didn't know he was in love with Jack at that time. He knew he was gut-wrenchingly bereft when he left Jack at his truck, but LOVE? I don't think he even considered that word where Jack was concerned.
Now, Alma was a different matter. He was supposed to fall in love and get married to a nice girl. That's what men did. So, that's when he did. I think he loved Alma as far as he understood the concept of love -- which was not too fully. He could see himself living with Alma, having kids, sleeping with her, sharing life with her. If anyone had asked him, he would have said he loved her.
Jack was his buddy, a guy he worked with one summer up on BBM. They had a thing; he liked it; he liked Jack; he sometimes wished Jack were around again. But love him? At that time, I don't think so. That came later. At the reunion, his body betrayed him and he and Jack resumed what they had started and that led to love. (Just MHO.)

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #7 on:** Jan 27, 2007, 09:21 PM »

Well said Lamusica

welshwitch · « **Reply #8 on:** Jan 27, 2007, 10:24 PM »

It was his attempt to conform and to become a part of the community instead of a rootless ranch-hand, I suppose. But in the end it didn't work - he and Alma never made a permanent home, he lost her and the girls and ended up alone.

I think when he was 19 marriage looked like the only realistic option and one which would give him security. How ironic that instead his marriage to Alma became part of the barrier to his considering a future with Jack.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #9 on:** Jan 28, 2007, 11:42 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jan 27, 2007, 10:24 PM

It was his attempt to conform and to become a part of the community instead of a rootless ranch-hand, I suppose. But in the end it didn't work - he and Alma never made a permanent home, he lost her and the girls and ended up alone.

I think when he was 19 marriage looked like th only realistic option and one which would give him security. How ironic that instead his marriage to Alma became part of the barrier to his considering a future with Jack.

You are so right.

Remember in the motel, and Jack asks Ennis, "What are we gonna now?" Ennis answers "I doubt there's we can do, You see I'm stuck with what I got here..." . Look at how Ennis thought of his marriage to Alma, he didn't have much to say about anything to Jack about the last four years. How did he view those years without Jack? Empty? barren?

But the interesting thing to me, is how adaptable Ennis could be. When the marriage failed and he and Alma divorced, what was the new excuse for Ennis to use against Jack, visiting his girls, (which was rare), and "Child Support".

Ennis used what others considered as socially the right thing to do, as a weapon to keep Jack, at bay. This one complicated guy.

Liana · « **Reply #10 on:** Jan 28, 2007, 01:31 PM »

I think that the most important reason for Enis to marry Alma is to convince everyone especially himself that he "ain't queer".

Petter Gusten · « **Reply #11 on:** Jan 28, 2007, 02:21 PM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on Jan 28, 2007, 11:42 AM

Ennis used what others considered as socially the right thing to do, as a weapon to keep Jack, at bay. This one complicated guy.

Isn't that the message in this film, that we too often do what we think other expect us to do, instead of doing what we want to do.

Del_Marvelous · « **Reply #12 on:** Jan 28, 2007, 04:40 PM »

Quote from: PetterG on Jan 28, 2007, 02:21 PM

Isn't that the message in this film, that we too often do what we think other expect us to do, instead of doing what we want to do.

PetterG, I agree. Society wouldn't accept Ennis's feelings for or a relationship with Jack. Ennis's father made sure he understood this fact.

I think Ennis felt affection for Alma and maybe, as others have said, even loved her before Brokeback. But afterward, I think he went through with the marriage because that's what was expected and accepted. And, in a way, he was trying to suppress what he felt for Jack. But those feelings were just too strong. True love cannot be suppressed.

Del_Marvelous

jacks_key · « **Reply #13 on:** Jan 28, 2007, 04:52 PM »

^^Great post, Del_Marvelous!

welshwitch · « **Reply #14 on:** Jan 28, 2007, 06:14 PM »

Evidently Ennis was stubbornly determined to marry Alma; he said so on the mountain, and again when parting from Jack. but I wonder if, after the cataclysm that had overwhelmed him, it also seemed like a sort of place to run to and hide - if he was married he clearly wasn't queer, but he was also indistinguishable, at least outwardly, from all the other married men around. There is a sense in which Alma, Lureen and LaShawn all fulfill the same function.

And Jack had gone, he had no idea where, so whatever had happened on the mountain had been a one-shot thing which was part of the past and from which he was safe.

lamusica · « **Reply #15 on:** Jan 28, 2007, 06:19 PM »

Perfectly stated, WW.

tpe · « **Reply #16 on:** Jan 29, 2007, 09:04 AM »

Quote from: lamusica on Jan 27, 2007, 09:14 PM

I don't think Ennis ever equated loving Alma and loving Jack. He didn't know he was in love with Jack at that time. He knew he was gut-wrenchingly bereft when he left Jack at his truck, but LOVE? I don't think he even considered that word where Jack was concerned.
Now, Alma was a different matter. He was supposed to fall in love and get married to a nice girl. That's what men did. So, that's when he did. I think he loved Alma as far as he understood the concept of love -- which was not too fully. He could see himself living with Alma, having kids, sleeping with her, sharing life with her. If anyone had asked him, he would have said he loved her.
Jack was his buddy, a guy he worked with one summer up on BBM. They had a thing; he liked it; he liked Jack; he sometimes wished Jack were around again. But love him? At that time, I don't think so. That came later. At the reunion, his body betrayed him and he and Jack resumed what they had started and that led to love. (Just MHO.)

I think initially, Ennis mistook his budding love for Jack with physical desire. Yes, I did think that for Ennis at that point, love could only be possible between him and Alma. Having been raised in lonely and tough circumstances, it is not surprising to me that Ennis had probmens discerning where his heart lay...

tpe · « **Reply #17 on:** Jan 29, 2007, 09:06 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Jan 27, 2007, 10:24 PM

I think when he was 19 marriage looked like the only realistic option and one which would give him security. How ironic that instead his marriage to Alma became part of the barrier to his considering a future with Jack.

Yes, it did seem like the next logical step for a rootless 19 year old. But he should have known that life is never that logical when it comes to matters of the heart.

tpe · « **Reply #18 on:** Jan 29, 2007, 09:11 AM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on Jan 28, 2007, 11:42 AM

You are so right.

Remember in the motel, and Jack asks Ennis, "What are we gonna now?" Ennis answers "I doubt there's we can do, You see I'm stuck with what I got here..." . Look at how Ennis thought of his marriage to Alma, he didn't have much to say about anything to Jack about the last four years. How did he view those years without Jack? Empty? barren?

But the interesting thing to me, is how adaptable Ennis could be. When the marriage failed and he and Alma divorced, what was the new excuse for Ennis to use against Jack, visiting his girls, (which was rare), and "Child Support".

Ennis used what others considered as socially the right thing to do, as a weapon to keep Jack, at bay. This one complicated guy.

Yes. At that point, I did feel that Ennis was partly usding his family as a reason to distance himself a bit from Jack.

Was it guilty conscienece? Did he feel that Jack was partly to balme for the divorce. Ennis probably felt sometimes that had Jack not shopwn up, he would have just have lead a "normal" (yet unfulfilled) life with Alma. To him, his life with Alma was the reality to bear, and everything else that got in the way would prove his undoing.

At this point, it was not about love for Alma; it was partly love of his daughter, but it was also a desperate desire to saty the "normal" course.

tpe · « **Reply #19 on:** Jan 29, 2007, 09:16 AM »

Quote from: Liana on Jan 28, 2007, 01:31 PM

I think that the most important reason for Enis to marry Alma is to convince everyone especially himself that he "ain't queer".

I do think this was partly the reason. Even before he met Jack, I suspect that Ennis harbored doubts about his love for Alma. After thery had met, it became imperative for Ennis to try to forget Jack, and set aside the unpleasant implications...

tpe · « **Reply #20 on:** Jan 29, 2007, 09:20 AM »

Quote from: PetterG on Jan 28, 2007, 02:21 PM

Isn't that the message in this film, that we too often do what we think other expect us to do, instead of doing what we want to do.

Or do what we think others expect us to do.

I guess Ennis just wanted to have a normal quiet lif. Even if that life was largely unfulfilling, I think he would not have minded that much. But Jack changed all that...

tpe · « **Reply #21 on:** Jan 29, 2007, 09:23 AM »

Quote from: Del_Marvelous on Jan 28, 2007, 04:40 PM

PetterG, I agree. Society wouldn't accept Ennis's feelings for or a relationship with Jack. Ennis's father made sure he understood this fact.

I think Ennis felt affection for Alma and maybe, as others have said, even loved her before Brokeback. But afterward, I think he went through with the marriage because that's what was expected and accepted. And, in a way, he was trying to suppress what he felt for Jack. But those feelings were just too strong. True love cannot be suppressed.

Del_Marvelous

I do suspect that Ennis loved Alma eraly on into the marriage -- or at least thought that he loved her. We can have lesser loves in our lives even if we are controlled by one great love.

Alma signified stability and normalcy to Ennis. At the very least. he must have loved her for that.

jacks_key · « **Reply #22 on:** Jan 29, 2007, 09:33 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Jan 29, 2007, 09:23 AM

I do suspect that Ennis loved Alma eraly on into the marriage -- or at least thought that he loved her. We can have lesser loves in our lives even if we are controlled by one great love.

Alma signified stability and normalcy to Ennis. At the very least. he must have loved her for that.

Well said; he loved her for what she symbolized, not necessarily who she really was.

tpe · « **Reply #23 on:** Jan 29, 2007, 09:39 AM »

Quote from: jacks_key on Jan 29, 2007, 09:33 AM

Well said; he loved her for what she symbolized, not necessarily who she really was.

Yes. he must have certainly loved her for what she stood for. Thanks, jacks_key.

welshwitch · « **Reply #24 on:** Jan 29, 2007, 12:59 PM »

I think it entirely possible to be pushed along by the expectations of otheres and by your own assumptions into a relationship which leads to marriage although it isn't the sort of love we're talking about between Jack nd Ennis. If you've never been struck by the coup de foudre, how do you know what you're missing?

And if everyone around you nods approvingly at your plans and they're just like those of everyone else, then you feel you're doing the "right" thing - Ennis is nothing if not conventional, too, and marrying Alma is a way of fitting in.

tpe · « **Reply #25 on:** Jan 29, 2007, 03:47 PM »

Yes, Ennis hated the idea of going against convention. In a way, perhaps he blamed Jack for leading him astray... After all, it wasn't Alma's fault...

manhattangirl · « **Reply #26 on:** Jan 29, 2007, 08:17 PM »

Now this is where I run into problems with the movie. Is this a story of a tortured love, or a morality play? It's like a duel movie, or a duel meaning in one movie.

Movie 1: You have the innocent virginal Ennis, who working to make money to marry his sweetheart, Alma, which he does, after his summer of sin. Works hard, have children he takes for ice cream and the fireworks, unfortunately he is led astray by the evil Jack who reenters his life, and tempts and torments him, for the next twenty years to live with him in a evil and sinful relationship. With Ennis "our hero" resisting him in the end, though he lost a lot, his home, wife, his kids he never gave in. Now free to love and mourn Jack, after Jack is laid to waste, with the knowledge resisted the temptation.

Movie 2: You have a lonely young man, trying to make his own life, and family after like everyone else. Finding a nice girl, he does what a lot of young men do, marry have kids. But when he meets Jack, and the question starts,Is this who he is? Is this what he really wants? The war with him starts. Ennis seems to sleepswalk all through his marriage with Alma, then Jack and Jack's love returns to him, and he comes to life again, like that summer in '63. The tragedy of this is that he couldn't or wouldn't acknowledge this until it was too late. if he doubted Jack's love or motives for him wanting a life with Ennis, he found the answer in Jack's bedroom.

I don't know maybe I'm not making sense to a lot of you. Ennis Del Mar is a really fascinating character to me. IMO, it's too easy to say he was just following convention, couldn't it be that the use of that convention is his way to keep him from what he wanted most, Jack. And I think he used it knowingly in fear of what he really was, and he couldn't face the idea that he was in love with a another man.

tpe · « **Reply #27 on:** Jan 30, 2007, 08:25 AM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on Jan 29, 2007, 08:17 PM

Now this is where I run into problems with the movie. Is this a story of a tortured love, or a morality play? It's like a duel movie, or a duel meaning in one movie.

Movie 1: You have the innocent virginal Ennis, who working to make money to marry his sweetheart, Alma, which he does, after his summer of sin. Works hard, have children he takes for ice cream and the fireworks, unfortunately he is led astray by the evil Jack who reenters his life, and tempts and torments him, for the next twenty years to live with him in a evil and sinful relationship. With Ennis "our hero" resisting him in the end, though he lost a lot, his home, wife, his kids he never gave in. Now free to love and mourn Jack, after Jack is laid to waste, with the knowledge resisted the temptation.

Movie 2: You have a lonely young man, trying to make his own life, and family after like everyone else. Finding a nice girl, he does what a lot of young men do, marry have kids. But when he meets Jack, and the question starts,Is this who he is? Is this what he really wants? The war with him starts. Ennis seems to sleepswalk all through his marriage with Alma, then Jack and Jack's love returns to him, and he comes to life again, like that summer in '63. The tragedy of this is that he couldn't or wouldn't acknowledge this until it was too late. if he doubted Jack's love or motives for him wanting a life with Ennis, he found the answer in Jack's bedroom.

I don't know maybe I'm not making sense to a lot of you. Ennis Del Mar is a really fascinating character to me. IMO, it's too easy to say he was just following convention, couldn't it be that the use of that convention is his way to keep him from what he wanted most, Jack. And I think he used it knowingly in fear of what he really was, and he couldn't face the idea that he was in love with a another man.

Hello manhattangirl. As weas said in previous posts, I believe Ennis did both: he tried to stick with convention early on, but ended up using convention as a way to keep Jack at bay. Again, this is not surprising, since this happens so many times in real life and people are not so simplistic as to have only one reason for doing what they do. People do things for various reasons -- some more openly, and others surreptitiously. There is no contradiction in thinking that Ennis desired to stick to convention as well as well as use it as means to keep himself at some distance from Jack later in life.

To think of BBM as making an explicit moral statement is to misunderstand the movie completely, IMO. One of the great powers of the story/movie is that it does not pass judgement on anyone -- not on Jack, Ennis, Alma, Lureen, Aguirre, Jack Twist, Randall, etc. Depending on your point of view, BBM can speak many messages. But I do think the BBM calls each of us to feel compassion for the common humanity that all of us share with each of the characters.

It may be a story of tortured love, but it is love nonetheless. And when does love ever come easy? To love flippantly -- to love without pain or the risk of pain: that is NOT love by any other name.

lamusica · « **Reply #28 on:** Jan 30, 2007, 11:33 AM »

Another moralistic view, and one I have read many times, is that Ennis's and Jack's relationship is outside the law. They are both married, but are having an "affair" which, in the end, harms everybody involved. It makes no difference that they are both men. Just the fact that they are carrying on with someone other than their lawful wedded partners is enough for the moralistic right to loath this movie. Unfortunately, this is the only view some people have.
Although I don't hold with this view, I think an argument can be made that this movie is about the one great romance that comes in a person's life. Ennis and Jack are thrown together by circumstances beyond their control, are attracted, act upon that attraction, separate, but get back together again and carry on for the rest of their life until tragedy strikes.
This interpretation goes along with the by-line of the movie - "Love is a force of nature". in other words, it is out of their control. Something (nature, fate, karma) is acting upon them and they are just responding mindlessly to the impetus forced upon them.
How many more interpretations are there? Do they ever end?

tpe · « **Reply #29 on:** Jan 30, 2007, 11:48 AM »

Quote from: lamusica on Jan 30, 2007, 11:33 AM

Another moralistic view, and one I have read many times, is that Ennis's and Jack's relationship is outside the law. They are both married, but are having an "affair" which, in the end, harms everybody involved. It makes no difference that they are both men. Just the fact that they are carrying on with someone other than their lawful wedded partners is enough for the moralistic right to loath this movie. Unfortunately, this is the only view some people have.
Although I don't hold with this view, I think an argument can be made that this movie is about the one great romance that comes in a person's life. Ennis and Jack are thrown together by circumstances beyond their control, are attracted, act upon that attraction, separate, but get back together again and carry on for the rest of their life until tragedy strikes.
This interpretation goes along with the by-line of the movie - "Love is a force of nature". in other words, it is out of their control. Something (nature, fate, karma) is acting upon them and they are just responding mindlessly to the impetus forced upon them.
How many more interpretations are there? Do they ever end?

Had Ennis been given a choice early on, he would have tried to resist any flowering of feeling for Jack. But like all of us, Love was beyond his control, as much as it was not in Alma's power to hold him back.