Brokeback Mountain Forum @ ennisjack.com
The Movie & Story => Characters, Quotes & Scenes => Topic started by: jason on Jan 29, 2006, 02:16 AM
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I've spent a lot of time (but not an exhaustive search) on these boards and annieproulx.com and find no posts on this interesting question.
In yesterday's Oprah Winfrey show with the BBM cast, I think it was Anne Hathaway who answered the question "did Lureen know?" with "It's obvious!" Which doesn't help at all, as Oprah said.
And then Jake immediately threw up his hands and said "I've no idea."
Sooo.... Something is going on. These questions come to me.
1. Why do the screenplay and movie make such a deal out of the icy, businesslike tone Lureen applies to Ennis in the phone call? This is no easy informational call, tho' Lureen tries to pass it off this way.
Did she suspect/know what the fishing trips meant to Jack? Doesn't seem as tho she suspected anything in the "you seen my parka" scene. Maybe someone had enlightened her later, which might explain her icy tone to Ennis. Maybe she knew and had learned to live with this skeleten in the cupboard, as did Alma for a while.
Why be icy with an old fishing buddy? Ang Lee sure raises the question front center.
2. Why does she tear up during the call? Is she missing the departed Jack, or feeling jealous of the lover at the end of the line? Or did she know that Jack had been murdered (if he was, or if she believed he had been, even if he wasn't), getting tearful because of the brutality of his end? Or was she simply feeling sorry for a his difficult life, their difficult marriage ...?
A good post on another thread made me more aware of Jack's situation in Childress, which may give a pointer to what Lureen could have known. I get Ennis-like fears (paranoid?) about who knew what. All the denigration of Jack in Childress (gets called a piss-ant, gets nicknamed Rodeo, has the carving tools taken from him, his wife's brushes him off, has so little of his own money in the early days, ...) starts to feel as though the community dismiss him *perhaps because they know about his gayness.* He can't rehabilitate himself even when he becomes a good salesman.
But of course there is no direct evidence that gayness was involved in the Childress folks' judgement of Rodeo Twist.
The simpler interpretation is that he suffers denigration at the hands of the good folks of Childress because he's ineffectual, never made it even in rodeoing, or brought anything to the marriage in terms of cows/$$/land. But I am still left wondering who knew what, probably exactly as Ang Lee meant!! Either way there is this running sore of denigration of Jack's "manhood." It may have nothing to do with the community suspecting anything fishy about Rodeo.
(BTW, I *reeely* recommend reading Lee Harris' column on this manhood aspect of the movie -- http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=011606D .)
Any consensus on what Lureen knew, a more complicated question than Oprah suggested? Or posts where it's been discussed??
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My feeling is she knew something was wrong, and maybe suspected something going on with another love, and then she gets this call from some guy
who says 20 years ago her husband spent the summer with him at his "favorite place" to where he wants his ashes scattered there and they go off and fish two to three times a year. I think it registered, thus she did tear up. Im ean for both her and Alma getting that knowledge must on some level have been like an "aha" experience, like oh that makes sense!
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Since Jack had been talking to his parents about making plans to leave his wife and bring "some ranch neighbor of his" with him up to his parents' place, I have to assume she at least by now knows about Jack's being gay. Ennis's filling her in on the meaning of Brokeback Mountain to Jack would probably enabled her to connect the rest of the dots...
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She knew!
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Excellent question ! Thanks for one more reason to be replaying this film in my mad mad brain day and night :D
Because the answer is not obvious. I see Lureen as suspecting, but unsure. Just because she knows Jack was murdered by homophobes (why else would anyone ?) doesn't mean she believes Jack is "guilty".
Her vagueness (fishing or hunting, what was it?) proves she was never that attentive to Jack's likes and loves. He must have mentioned him dozens of times over 20 yrs of marriage, and she can't remember how Jack spoke of Ennis ??
I see her tears as tears of pain. She was hurt because somehow Ennis was special to Jack, special enough to keep him somewhat of a secret. Then again, if she did find out that Jack was in an affair with someone local, she might presume that Ennis was "just another of his many lovers." In any case, she's hurt that she didn't know.
Stephan
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Since Jack had been talking to his parents about making plans to leave his wife and bring "some ranch neighbor of his" with him up to his parents' place, I have to assume she at least by now knows about Jack's being gay. Ennis's filling her in on the meaning of Brokeback Mountain to Jack would probably enabled her to connect the rest of the dots...
Yes, the meaning of Ennis + Brokeback must have started a line of reasoning for her, if nothing else had struck her before.
Thanks.
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Hi jason,
I too struggled with the question did Lureen know or at least suspect Jack may have been having an affair with Ennis. The fourth time I saw the film I caught the lines she said in the phone call from Ennis that went like this "Get in touch with his folks. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out. About the ashes, I mean. I think this explains that she knew Jack's wishes always was to find a life with Ennis. I think Jack was a little more honest with Lureen than Ennis was with Alma. Paul
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Hi jason,
I too struggled with the question did Lureen know or at least suspect Jack may have been having an affair with Ennis. The fourth time I saw the film I caught the lines she said in the phone call from Ennis that went like this "Get in touch with his folks. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out. About the ashes, I mean. I think this explains that she knew Jack's wishes always was to find a life with Ennis. I think Jack was a little more honest with Lureen than Ennis was with Alma. Paul
Yes... that last line....'About the ashes I mean' stuck in my head the second time I saw the movie, for some reason. She is saying she knows Jacks' wishes about the ashes, and she knew Jack's wishes on something else...his true sexuality? That's why she is clarifying to Ennis which one she is talking about
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I've heard Ang Lee say that he thought the answer was obvious (just like Anne said on Oprah) and I've read that Annie Poulx thought it likely that he was murdered.
But, I really like the not knowing. I mean, I guess I like the idea that Ennis doesn't know FOR SURE. It means that Ennis, at the end of the story/movie doesn't know if his fears have played out in reality or not. I'm getting tongue twisted, but it works for me to not know.
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Personally, I sort of think that she did know.. that Jack had this relationship with Ennis and possibly that his death was a gay bashing but she tried to make it seem like she didnt know.. and along with her knowing he loved Ennis..
thats just my opinion.. who knows lol
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Personally, I sort of think that she did know.. that Jack had this relationship with Ennis and possibly that his death was a gay bashing but she tried to make it seem like she didnt know.. and along with her knowing he loved Ennis..
thats just my opinion.. who knows lol
I think you're exactly right. You say what I've thought. Of the many possibilities of who knew what, this fits best for me.
But this is all only if Lureen is of the personality to be happy with not really knowing.
IF she was one to ferret out the truth, like some poeple I know, then she'd have taken the bit between her teeth and thought it through. She seems like the perosn to do this. BUT maybe she just wasn't interested enough in Jack, as some have pointed out.
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I've heard Ang Lee say that he thought the answer was obvious (just like Anne said on Oprah) and I've read that Annie Poulx thought it likely that he was murdered.
But, I really like the not knowing. I mean, I guess I like the idea that Ennis doesn't know FOR SURE. It means that Ennis, at the end of the story/movie doesn't know if his fears have played out in reality or not. I'm getting tongue twisted, but it works for me to not know.
Ultimately I like not knowing too. You're right to correct my obsessing brain. Just another enigma in the movie, designed by these brilliant creators. I wanted to think it through/write it all out to see what I came up with about alternatives. Layers and layers! Geez.
But I wondered if I had missed some obvious cue. Seems I got the cues and they confuse! ;D
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Hi jason,
I too struggled with the question did Lureen know or at least suspect Jack may have been having an affair with Ennis. The fourth time I saw the film I caught the lines she said in the phone call from Ennis that went like this "Get in touch with his folks. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out. About the ashes, I mean. I think this explains that she knew Jack's wishes always was to find a life with Ennis. I think Jack was a little more honest with Lureen than Ennis was with Alma. Paul
;) You may be right about Lureen because it seems to be obvious that homosexulity is not that problematic for Jack. But Ennis has a good excuse for being that obssessed by the SECRET: his own father is certainly a murderer, and not any kind of murderer if u see what I mean...
What do you think about the consequences of Jack's death? Do u think that it was a murder?
Merry
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I think she had some idea of what her husband was doing..through the years you saw her going from a young happy young lady in love and fiesty to someone who was bitter and disappointed that she didn't have real true love as she once thought she would have. I think she definitely suspected something was up with her husband going on fishing trips and all. I am not sure but I think she say something to Ennis when he calls that make me think she knew but I can't remember the exact words she says..but something about being another something or something along those lines.
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;) You may be right about Lureen because it seems to be obvious that homosexulity is not that problematic for Jack. But Ennis has a good excuse for being that obssessed by the SECRET: his own father is certainly a murderer, and not any kind of murderer if u see what I mean...
What do you think about the consequences of Jack's death? Do u think that it was a murder?
Merry
Merry, I'll try to be organized and talk about Jack, Ennis and Ennis' dad separately.
Jack. The more I see the movie and read the story the more I feel the big difference between Jack's feeling about himself and his homo/bisexuality, versus Ennis'. Not as problematic for Jack, as you say. (That enquiring look on Jack's face when Ennis starts his paranoid "Do you ever feel people are looking at you, and they know ...? But ol' Jack's confident. He doesn't feel this way at all.)
Ennis. Obsessed by the secret -- well said. YES. Guess what, I have felt the same pressure, exactly.
So the bigger issue for me is coping with that huge wall of denial, the BAN by society on "this thing." I grew up overseas in a place as backward and homophobic as rural Wyo in 1963. I relate to this BAN and the secret exactly.
I'm slowly working out why the movie is important for me. Still getting words to say it. One reason it's important is because it shows folks courageously refusing to let homphobic society dictate about these super-important issues. So Jack and Ennis are rebels, as Lee Harris says (and he concludes, of course, the world doesn't tolerate rebels, and so they lose the war).
Tho they didn't know it, J & E are part of our society becoming much more humane. Wow. This is the big time.
For me the movie (making it, and its content) is an affirmation of really important things. That I feel very strongly about, to the point of tears when I see it on screen. I would never have believed such a movie could be made in my lifetime when I was 17 in 1963 (yeah, nearly dead ringer for our heroes).
You might not think mere affirmation by the story line could get anyone worked up. It does. Sounds so stilted when I write it. Still trying for words. But the idea is there. Affirmation is Ennis living through his paranoia, admitting his love, living through the foul loss of Jack ... It's Jack admitting his love, living always far from Ennis, living it and taking the consequences ...
So the next thing the movie makes me feel is thankful to be far from those bad old days, in a freer society. I'll say this just once Jack f***in Twist, Thank god for these more humane times in these United States, for a very literal freedom. I speak for many. I've never said these things before. This is serious stuff. That's why the movie is important.
Jack's father. If not a murderer then one who would willingly be a full accomplice, like most folks thereabouts! No difference from the lynching of blacks only 70 years ago (?).
I don't know if it was murder. The movie and story leave the question open. And I'm OK with that. The story says Ennis believed it was murder.
More important is that society was prepared to allow it to go unpunished if it was murder.
No consequences.
That's incredible. In my lifetime. Annie Proulx, who wrote the story, mentions the student Matthew Shepard who was killed for being gay in Wyoming almost yesterday--1998!! One of my office coworkers was killed in Houston for the same reason. 15 years ago only. At least these murderers were punished.
I'll try to stop.
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;) I really thank you for your response! I totally agree with you, indeed.
Merry
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Jason - You brought some terrific points to light, thanks. Whether Ang intentionally tried to keep Jack's death open ended, he (at least in my mind's eye) was murdered by gay bashers. My heart aches for anyone who's been attacked or killed in this manner. Sad when people are willing to kill another human because they don't like their sexual orientation. The scene were Ennis is flashing back on the phone to what he believes happens to Jack is so disturbing to me, I bawled. The reality is, there's no where to turn, even in this day and age for many gay men of any age, to even receive a mild understanding of who they are from the areas in which many live. No one to talk with, no one to hold a hand or let them rest a weary head on a shoulder to cry on. Pent up emotions, with no outlet, which lead to suicide, alcoholism, and drugs to escape the pain. It makes me realize that although I teach, perhaps I really don't do enough to help out my fellow brothers.
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From the short story, about the phone scene
"No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was cold as snow"
My understanding, Lurren knew.
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chameau - you really do feel that in reading the way annie writes about that in the book.
btw...thanks for letting me get off on a tangent in the other post. My emotions right now are heightened.
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chameau - you really do feel that in reading the way annie writes about that in the book.
btw...thanks for letting me get off on a tangent in the other post. My emotions right now are heightened.
Annie's story is very short but so much straight to the point. Not a lot of words, but full of meaning.
About your second point buddy, don't even worry, we are all very enthusiastic and emotional. Even the Moderators (me included :-X) are going to many times off topics... We have so much fun to exchange with addicted friends.
The most important of all we're human beings. ;)
So we're not perfect.
Need another virtual shoulder to spread tears? :-*
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Yup, you'd be holding a sobbing mess tonight i'm afraid.
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I have been there!
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I have been there!
Hugs & Big Thanks :-*
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I dont know if she knew. You couldn't really tell!!!!! Anne played Lureen really good!
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Jason - You brought some terrific points to light, thanks. Whether Ang intentionally tried to keep Jack's death open ended, he (at least in my mind's eye) was murdered by gay bashers. My heart aches for anyone who's been attacked or killed in this manner. Sad when people are willing to kill another human because they don't like their sexual orientation. The scene were Ennis is flashing back on the phone to what he believes happens to Jack is so disturbing to me, I bawled. The reality is, there's no where to turn, even in this day and age for many gay men of any age, to even receive a mild understanding of who they are from the areas in which many live. No one to talk with, no one to hold a hand or let them rest a weary head on a shoulder to cry on. Pent up emotions, with no outlet, which lead to suicide, alcoholism, and drugs to escape the pain. It makes me realize that although I teach, perhaps I really don't do enough to help out my fellow brothers.
Cowboy, chameau, and all,
Thanks for the posts!
It seems as tho the consensus is that Lureen knew. If that's so, then she's a broader minded gal than I gave her credit for. Assume she strongly suspected Jack had outside interests of a different sort for some years, she could have dumped him quick. But they went on respectful of one another,with a physical relationship for quite a while.
I this how Lureen was intended by the creators?
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As for Lureen knowing, I am not sure myself... I read somewhere that the way Lureen delivered how Jack died speach was probably because she was tired of telling to all them Jack's male friends (I hesitate to say boyfriends) and figured Ennis was one of them as well. But after Ennis told her how they spent a summer up in Brockback in 1963 she must have realized how important Brockback must have meant to her husband. Jack did want his ashes to go there so it must have meant something more to him. I guess this is something we will never know. I know these things happen in real life, but to see it in front of you in the big screen makes it even more sadder.
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Romeshvr - Great point, because it when he explains brokeback that the tears well up in Lureen.
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Yes, those were tears in Lureen. And those noises indicated something. That she realized who she was talking to. Does't she say something like... "His parents would appreciate it. About the ashes I mean." Meaning there was something ELSE they would NOT appreciate. Knowing Jack how he really died?
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Makes me wonder if she really told Jack's parents the truth. I think she did because of the fact that his father seemed so bitter and his mother silent, until she sees Ennis.
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Makes me wonder if she really told Jack's parents the truth. I think she did because of the fact that his father seemed so bitter and his mother silent, until she sees Ennis.
Good point Cody
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And if she didn't tell them the truth, a pox on her. I think know, I wonder if that's yet another reason why Jack's mom asked Ennis to come back and visit again, to help her understand what happened and why.
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Just came back from a BBM viewing.
During this phone call with Ennis, she realized the fishing buddy was from before her wedding, when Ennis mentioned about them co-working on BBM in 1963. She kind of realized her husband cheated on her with another man for years. Just the way she hung up the phone at the very end of the scene.
This is my personal analysis BTW.
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That's what I think too. She knew, like the pieces coming together.
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I think it hit home, because right before the tears well up, then she clams up tight as a drum, almost grits it out through her teeth.
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Makes me wonder if she really told Jack's parents the truth. I think she did because of the fact that his father seemed so bitter and his mother silent, until she sees Ennis.
OMG, Cody, I think you may be right. This is an obvious reason (assuming per everyone on this thread, that Lureen knew) why Mr T is so bitter and twisted in that scene. He's horrible. I never thought of an actual discussion/chat/exchange going on between Lightning Flat and Childress. Yes, rings true, quite apart from anything else going on his mind.
Twist Sr and Aguirre embody homophobic malice to me ...
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Personally, I feel that Lureen always suspected something was up with Jack for many years, but she stopped caring about it one way or the other when she finally accepted that her marriage was a failure, and she focused her attention on business and working for her father. Then later, after Jack ( I believe) was murdered, and she was told why, she started to put the pieces together, but still not yet the full picture.
The full picture comes into her mind when Ennis calls about Jack's death, and you see the transformation on her face when she's talking to Ennis on the phone. Ennis mentions Brokeback Mountain and Lureen thinks "Oh God, THIS is the man who affected Jack so deeply!"
Then she coldly states (while at the same time being flooded with a full understanding of Jack's secret life), that Jack died due to a blown tire, and she sticks to the bogus cover story, which she has told many times previously.
Her husband is dead. Her anger and pain is suffused with confusing sympathy AND resentment for Ennis when suggesting he contact Jack's parents. They know about Jack from her, and they've had time to proccess it by the time Ennis get's to their house and each parent has come to a different way of dealing with it. They loved their son and this is the man their son loved. Their son is dead. What now is to be gained by not allowing Ennis consideration, empathy and attempted understanding?
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I'm having difficulty in deciding whether Lureen deserves more credit than i have previously given her. I wonder if i was in Lureen shoes and realising Ennis was Jack's love if i would have reacted the same. Why didn't she shout at Ennis 'it's your fault this happened to him! Why didn't you just leave him alone?!' Instead she recited the tire iron story - perhaps trying to protect Ennis from the horrible truth? I don't know. Any ideas would be appreciated as this is one aspect of the story i just can't find resolution to.
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I'm having difficulty in deciding whether Lureen deserves more credit than i have previously given her. I wonder if i was in Lureen shoes and realising Ennis was Jack's love if i would have reacted the same. Why didn't she shout at Ennis 'it's your fault this happened to him! Why didn't you just leave him alone?!' Instead she recited the tire iron story - perhaps trying to protect Ennis from the horrible truth? I don't know. Any ideas would be appreciated as this is one aspect of the story i just can't find resolution to.
Aimi, I'm the same. I've not been able to decide if she knew or not. It's not clear in the short story either, and every time I see the film and watch that scene, I'm no nearer to a definite conclusion. The only thing that sways me in the direction of her knowing is the way she recites the explanation of Jack's death...she takes a deep breath just before talking, and then reels off the details in a cold, unemotional way. And then of course we have the interspersed scene of Jack being beaten up, which leads us to believe that she's lying. But I still don't know.
The very first time I saw the film, I was deeply affected by the part where Ennis tells Lureen that Jack and he had herded sheep on Brokeback, and that's why it was so special to him - there is a pause, and a catch in her breathe, as if she's just been shot - something has just clicked in her mind and she sees things so clearly now. But it's still left unclear and unanswered.
Sorry, I didn't help much with this post, did I? :-[
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Christie, sometimes it just helps knowing that someone is struggling to find the same answers as you. I think Anne deserves full credit for the telephone performance alone - especially as it is such a close up shot. There is no way to hide any false sentiment or halfhearted acting - she nails it. Those little noises and particularly the tears, the way they don't actually fall you just see them filling her eyes, its a tremendous performance. Its the only chink in Lureens armour we actually get to see - and its such an intense moment when it happens xx
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I agree with you about her performance I think she portrays so many feelings here and it must be so hard to do when a camera is shoved up so close to your face! But she did it and it was the only time you saw her as a person and not as a businesswoman too busy making deals and money to deal with her marriage and relationship with a man who was in love with someone else
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I agree with you about her performance I think she portrays so many feelings here and it must be so hard to do when a camera is shoved up so close to your face! But she did it and it was the only time you saw her as a person and not as a businesswoman too busy making deals and money to deal with her marriage and relationship with a man who was in love with someone else
O/T i know but NICE avatar Christie - yummy :P
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awwww thanks aimi! i like it lots and i like heath lots too in case you hadnt realised that!
just sent you a pm please answer quick!
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In an interview over the film, actor Jake Gyllenhaal (who plays Jack Twist) says this about whether Lureen (played by Anne Hathaway) "knows" or not:
"I walked all those scenes with Anne thinking she knows," reveals Gyllenhaal. "I never was hiding anything from her as actor. I just thought ‘oh we both know, I'm going off to fishing she knows what I am going to do. How could she not?’ I think Heath's whole thing was hiding and hiding and hiding and hiding and hiding."
Very revealing, I thought!
Here's something I wrote earlier about my views on Lureen...(written before I read what Gyllenhaal says in his interview...)
h++p://xsorbit30.com/users5/brokebackmountain/index.php?topic=405.30#msg30929
sam
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That is a great quote, your correct I think Jack was ready to tell Lureen and the world. Ennis never would.
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Here's something I wrote earlier about my views on Lureen...(written before I read what Gyllenhaal says in his interview...)
h++p://xsorbit30.com/users5/brokebackmountain/index.php?topic=405.30#msg30929
sam
Wow Sam, what a tour de force in that other thread. Yes, yes. You make a good argument that Lureen put it all together correctly in her mind... just in the short space of the phone call. But I'm still a bit sceptical... to piece together so much in a short call. Maybe it's just that I can't get my mind round all the implications, shooting off in all directions!!
You're probably right. Just gotta get used to it ...
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I wondered if Lureen had come to realise there was something about Jack after all the fishing trips and the fact that his buddy never came to Texas. Maybe there was gossip, eg from the older men who comment on his lack of ability as a bull-rider? And LD Newsome had his suspicions - all that stuff about "Boys should watch football. You want your son to grow up to be a man, don't you, daughter?" [ Hope I'm not misquoting - this is from memory.] So maybe he dropped hints, both to his Texan friends and to Lureen, or made pointed comments to/about Jack. So maybe either before or after he died she realised and Ennis's phone call brought it all back after she'd been busy putting on an act to keep up the social appearance of having tragically lost her husband. And maybe she was by then beyond being hurt any more by what had happened, hence the comment about the ashes?
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This was a great "mystery" to me too after seeing the movie for the very first time...(<---like WAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaayyy back then! Ha, ha, ha! ;) Since I bought the dvd, I think I must have watched it about 50 times by now....! :o ;D)
Aaaaaaaaaaaany-waaaaaaaaays....it bothered me to no end, so I did some intensive research on this particular subject, reading and listening to everything that I could find on the internet about it. And it's curious to see, that while the views differ amongst the general (theatre) 'viewers' of the film (including a good number of the film critics!), every single one of the people involved in the actual MAKING of the movie, ranging from Ang Lee, Anne Hathaway, McMurtry and Ossana, Jake Gyllenhaal, Annie Proulx etc. etc.~~ all the way down the ladder including make-up men, set dressers etc. all believe that Lureen knows. This is what I could find.
Funny though as: no one actually dares to come right out and say: "Jack was murdered"...everyone always just says something like: "It is IN MY BELIEF, rather apparent that Lureen knows..."
After doing this research, my heart was stilled, and I was finally in peace again. I personally, decided that the viewpoints from the persons involved with the actual making of the movie, held more weight for me than the opinions of the few "others". (They lived with, studied meticulously and worked with Proulx's material for a long time while putting the film together~needless to say: much, much longer than I had.) So I chose to accept and embrace their professional viewpoint as also my own. (It wasn't very difficult to do, as this was also my opinion anyway, even before I conducted my mini-search on the net & after having only seen the movie once...) But by doing this, I could finally watch the movie again, interpreting and understanding things in an appropriate way.
It is my opinion, that the movie was filmed in this way, not blatantly revealing by spelling it out in giant "black and white" letters, to simply stay inherently true to Annie Proulx's writing/short story (it was written this way...). And as is often the case in great literature, a small amount of ambiguity, the so-called: "leaving-it-up-to-the-reader's-discretion" is always a desirable thing. Very attractive from the reader's point of view, because it subtly binds him to the material, stealthily drawing him into the story, while graciously offering him his own personal "input" into the already existing piece of art...
McMurtry and Ossana's well-thought out and ingeniously written (perfect!) screenplay combined with Ang Lee's very skillfull manner of filming of this rather difficult aspect from Proulx's short story is truly marvelous. It is more than likely that in less capable hands, it might have delivered a film of mediocre quality. But they present us instead, with a truly great piece of cinema. The best movie I have seen in a loooooooooong time...!
And the proof of this is: merely the fact that this had taken a hold of me, enticing me so strongly in it's 'grip'...and actually FORCING me out of my usual laid-back and rather pitiful apathetic "couch potato" manner of film viewing ("Ok, ok, start the damn film...& lemme see what you got...while I lay back, suck up my diet coke through a straw and crunch on some mundane kernels of corn)~~making me actively do my research for a/the "truth".... And believe me bud, that is NOT an easy thing to do! ;D ;D
Whew! Even after like 50 viewings, I am still emotionally and physically drained at the end of the movie... I must be a major sufferer of PBM syndrome...
sam
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first time i saw the film i wasnt sure wether lureen knew or not but after watching it several times more, you seem to get the impression that she did suspect something ???
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Ang Lee is genius indeed, that Lureen on the phone scene is so perfect, like every scene in this film.
(I think Lee wanted it that way, no tears, and looks like those are fake-tears(? like contact lenses) in her eyes?)
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first time i saw the film i wasnt sure wether lureen knew or not but after watching it several times more, you seem to get the impression that she did suspect something ???
Lureen lived in a sheltered world over-protected by her pushy, bigoted father, who had no positive feelings for Jack. He was the type of man who would have felt justified in having Jack killed (directly or indirectly) just to remove the stain from the family quilt. Lureen may have suspected the truth, but was so accustomed to living a lie that she didn't fight it.
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I would think that when you intentionally tell a lie, as Lureen did when she told Ennis how Jack died, that, in itself, means you know the truth. Not that you suspect the truth but that you know the truth and have the desire to hide it. Therefore you intentionally lie.
Or am I missing something here?
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I would think that when you intentionally tell a lie, as Lureen did when she told Ennis how Jack died, that, in itself, means you know the truth. Not that you suspect the truth but that you know the truth and have the desire to hide it. Therefore you intentionally lie.
Or am I missing something here?
I agree with you. To lie about it, you have to KNOW about it.
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I would think that when you intentionally tell a lie, as Lureen did when she told Ennis how Jack died, that, in itself, means you know the truth. Not that you suspect the truth but that you know the truth and have the desire to hide it. Therefore you intentionally lie.
Or am I missing something here?
I'm not so sure she tells a lie.
She may have suspected the truth. She may not.
Moreover, there's a possibility (little possibility, of course) that what occurres to Jack is really an accident. My "to live a lie " is referred to her life with his husband.
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I'm not so sure she tells a lie.
I am VERY sure she was lying. Ang Lee said it was obvious she was lying to Ennis.
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Not intending to be repetitive here, but to sort of sum up a (possible) consensus:
1. Lureen is lying: her rote repetition of "the official story" of Jack's death is unconvincing. Ennis immediately knows it's false. Possibly, she knows the truth: that Jack is murdered for being gay. Possibly, she just knows something is funny; maybe her dad is filtering information that she receives.
2. The little sounds she makes are not so much indications she is lying, as indications she is learning new things she never knew. She finds out that Ennis was a special person to Jack; maybe she realizes that he was the love of Jack's life.
3. The phone call is a very important moment in Ennis's development. Just the fact he's able to have a long phone conversation at all is something for him. Plus, he admits to someone he's never met that Jack meant a lot to him.
4. Give Lureen a little credit. She doesn't shut Ennis down, and she encourages him to contact Jack's parents. She encourages him to proceeding in "carrying out Jack's wishes." She shares with him that Jack had been drinking a lot.
:-\\
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Not intending to be repetitive here, but to sort of sum up a (possible) consensus:
1. Lureen is lying: her rote repetition of "the official story" of Jack's death is unconvincing. Ennis immediately knows it's false. Possibly, she knows the truth: that Jack is murdered for being gay. Possibly, she just knows something is funny
2. The little sounds she makes are not so much indications she is lying, as indications she is learning new things she never knew. She finds out that Ennis was a special person to Jack; maybe she realizes that he was the love of Jack's life.
3. The phone call is a very important moment in Ennis's development. Just the fact he's able to have a long phone conversation at all is something for him. Plus, he admits to someone he's never met that Jack meant a lot to him.
4. Give Lureen a little credit. She doesn't shut Ennis down, and she encourages him to contact Jack's parents. She encourages him to proceeding in "carrying out Jack's wishes." She shares with him that Jack had been drinking a lot.
:-\\
I agree!! Her almost inaudible 'quips' and her eyes filling to the brim with tears certainly says alot.
I ESPECIALLY agree with edgar on #4. You hit the brass tack right on it's head with this one!
Hmmmm (off the subject here:)...but speaking of 'brass tacks': did you know that the same guy who previously bought the 2 shirts on the auction also paid $250,00 for the actual brass tack holding up the BM postcard on the back of Ennis' trailer/closet door? I read that he did. He also wanted the actual postcard, but it was not 'real'...just a 'photoshopped' prop. He, he! :P
sam
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Did Lure en Know?
In the movie, Lureen gives Ennis "The Official Story" but she knew the truth. After Ennis tells her that he and Jack herded sheep up on Brokeback (before her marriage to Jack) she realizes who Ennis is and turns, to quote the story "as cold as snow."
She definitely knew.
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And much earlier, when she made a fuss about his always going up to Wyoming and his fishing buddy never coming to Texas, surely she was saying something more than appears on the surface? The perfunctory kiss he gives her before he leaves suggests their marriage is pretty much empty and he clearly feels a great deal of commitment, if no more ( from her POV) to this unknown buddy.
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Not intending to be repetitive here, but to sort of sum up a (possible) consensus:
1. Lureen is lying: her rote repetition of "the official story" of Jack's death is unconvincing. Ennis immediately knows it's false. Possibly, she knows the truth: that Jack is murdered for being gay. Possibly, she just knows something is funny
2. The little sounds she makes are not so much indications she is lying, as indications she is learning new things she never knew. She finds out that Ennis was a special person to Jack; maybe she realizes that he was the love of Jack's life.
3. The phone call is a very important moment in Ennis's development. Just the fact he's able to have a long phone conversation at all is something for him. Plus, he admits to someone he's never met that Jack meant a lot to him.
4. Give Lureen a little credit. She doesn't shut Ennis down, and she encourages him to contact Jack's parents. She encourages him to proceeding in "carrying out Jack's wishes." She shares with him that Jack had been drinking a lot.
:-\\
I agree!! Her almost inaudible 'quips' and her eyes filling to the brim with tears certainly says alot.
I ESPECIALLY agree with edgar on #4. You hit the brass tack right on it's head with this one!
sam
Sam, sorry I didn't respond sooner. Thanks for the vote of confidence!
Lureen could have said, "I don't know where Jack's parents live." Or she could have just spoken a few words and hung up. I think she did pretty well, under the circumstances.
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Yeah I don't slight Lureen much, I mean she paid a big price for a youthful mistake of
being sort of predatory when finding a man. She was spoiled and would have fared
better if she let someone come to her. But still, yeah she could have hung up on Ennis
or not told him anything.
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I feel a lot of sympathy for her - she had an overbearing father, an unassertive mother, a kid who turned out to have problems and a husband who was in love with not just someone else but another man. In addition she had all the aggro between her husband and her father. She'd evidently been brought up in a money-oriented family so it's not surprising she turned her attention to running the business - what else could she do?
And she met Jack in an environment where he ( briefly) shone, and he was new and different and gorgeous ( though that's Jake not Jack). I bet her father wanted her to marry and would probably have liked her to marry the son of some good-old-boy friend of his. Jack must have looked a better prospect.
She did talk to Ennis, and she did have to keep it together while she was lying her socks off and at the same time realising exactly who Ennis was and what he'd been to Jack.
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Ok, after just reading the full thread, and going with my gut....
Laureen knew, and I believe she even SUSPECTED when he was searching for his parka,hence, the questioning....and his answers too were not to convincing.
I think she She did put the final pieces together during the phone call.
She became "cold as snow" and filled up with tears, because she was talking to this "very important man" in Jack life for the FIRST TIME EVER, and she had to deliver her rote speech about his death.
Now, did Laureen actually know he was beaten to death? and if he was, why? I'm not so sure. I'm still trying to piece that together.
But I believe she suspected he was homoexual, and she was actually talking to "his other love."
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Lets not forget the conversation at the dinner table when Lureen questions why husbands don't ever want to dance with their wives...she sarcastically questions..."Why do you think that is Jack?" SHE KNEW
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Oh, she knew!! She was a smart cookie. The tone in her voice said it all
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The more I watch the thing, the more it seems to me that long before Jack's death she must have "known" inwardly but not said anything/acknowledged what she knew, because it was unspecific. Once she hears what Ennis says during the phone-call, it all falls into place. She must also have noticed other things too - if Jack was involved with Randall for some time, that would have been hard to hide since Randall lived and worked near.She never met ennis, so in a sense he was unreal to her and could be ignored to a degree, as we all ignore uncomforable things if we can.
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The more I watch the thing, the more it seems to me that long before Jack's death she must have "known" inwardly but not said anything/acknowledged what she knew, because it was unspecific.
What in the movie, Welshwitch, gave you the impression Lureen knew about Jack and Ennis? I can only remember 4 times we see Lureen after she and Jack get married.
One is when the two men were in her office calling Jack a pissant and Lureen doesn't even defend Jack. She never even said, hey fellas. That is my husband your are talking about. She just goes back to work.
Another is at Thanksgiving when she sits there and giggles to herself because Jack just told her old man off.
Another is when Jack is in her office looking for his blue parker and they "kiss." She didn't seem concerned Jack and Ennis were getting together as much as she seemed "concerned" that it was always Jack driving 28 hours round trip.
And the only other time I remember her is at the dance when Jack asked another man's wife to dance instead of her.
To me, none of those scenes showed she knew or even suspected. Was there something else I might have missed?
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I don't think there's anything obvious in the movie that suggests that Lureen knew. We know from some of the things that Jack says that their marriage isn't full and happy any more (if it really ever was) but the only time we see Lureen as anything less than content with Jack is at the dance when she says "husbands don't never seem to want to dance with their wives"....despite the fact that there are many husbands and wives up dancing. She obviously means only that Jack never wants to dance with her....and maybe that is some hint that she knows that something isn't "normal" about their relationship?
Having said all that, though, I do firmly believe that she knew, or at least strongly suspected, that Jack and Ennis were more than friends - and all the things that Ennis says during the phone call just fill in the gaps for her, letting her know where they met, how long their relationship lasted etc.
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She knew...
I believe Jack told her himself when he came back from BBM and after that left her with that other man. to start that new ranch.
She knew he was gay on the phone with Ennis.
It was probably a very heated up fight between Lureen and Jack, and he probably said something like 'all those times I went fishing and hunting, We did not fish or hunt, but got drunk and had sex'
When Ennis tells her about BBM and that they were herding sheep back in '63, she is hurt. At that point she hears from Ennis Jack knew he was gay, even before he maried her. She is confronted with the reality her marriage was fake.
When Ennis says 'I sure am sorry, we was good friends' her expression is priceless.
After that she gets bitter... I feel at this point she does not want anything to do anymore with jack, Ennis, their homosexuality or even Jacks parrents. And that is why she tells Ennis to go to Jack parrents with the famous 'about the ashes I mean' line...
Now, I also believe Lureen knows about the killing of Jack. I believe she is behind the killing in some way.
But I'm pretty radical about that i guess
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Having said all that, though, I do firmly believe that she knew, or at least strongly suspected, that Jack and Ennis were more than friends - and all the things that Ennis says during the phone call just fill in the gaps for her, letting her know where they met, how long their relationship lasted etc.
Well NoReins.....there has to be something in the movie that makes you believe she suspected. I mean, we just can't makes things up. By the time Ennis called her she knew about Jack and after talking to Ennis she knew a whole lot more. But I just don't see any indication at all she suspected during their marriage.
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Having said all that, though, I do firmly believe that she knew, or at least strongly suspected, that Jack and Ennis were more than friends - and all the things that Ennis says during the phone call just fill in the gaps for her, letting her know where they met, how long their relationship lasted etc.
Well NoReins.....there has to be something in the movie that makes you believe she suspected. I mean, we just can't makes things up. By the time Ennis called her she knew about Jack and after talking to Ennis she knew a whole lot more. But I just don't see any indication at all she suspected during their marriage.
I think maybe I didn't express myself very well. I think you're right that she knew about Jack, and she knew he went off on "fishing trips" with Ennis so I guess I just thought she may have suspected something because of that. It's not something that's shown - it's just a feeling.
One other thing that may be a slight hint - but may be more because Anne Hathaway believed that Lureen knew - is the way she says "You're the fishin' buddy or the huntin' buddy - I know that". I guess to me it sounds a little like there's a kind of hidden "but I know Jack didn't fish or hunt" at the end of it - but, like I say, that could be Anne Hathaway's take on Lureen shining through.
Ach, ahdunno :-\\
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The more I watch the thing, the more it seems to me that long before Jack's death she must have "known" inwardly but not said anything/acknowledged what she knew, because it was unspecific.
What in the movie, Welshwitch, gave you the impression Lureen knew about Jack and Ennis? I can only remember 4 times we see Lureen after she and Jack get married.
One is when the two men were in her office calling Jack a pissant and Lureen doesn't even defend Jack. She never even said, hey fellas. That is my husband your are talking about. She just goes back to work.
Another is at Thanksgiving when she sits there and giggles to herself because Jack just told her old man off.
Another is when Jack is in her office looking for his blue parker and they "kiss." She didn't seem concerned Jack and Ennis were getting together as much as she seemed "concerned" that it was always Jack driving 28 hours round trip.
And the only other time I remember her is at the dance when Jack asked another man's wife to dance instead of her.
To me, none of those scenes showed she knew or even suspected. Was there something else I might have missed?
Obviously I can't speak for welshwitch, but personally I think that all those scenes you mention feature little hints that together, over the years, would have made Lureen at least suspect, if not know for sure.
The scene in the office, unless I've totally misinterpreted it, the two guys were implying that Jack was gay, with the comments about how he used to try, to ride the bulls. It always makes me think of the scene with Jimbo, where he says something similar, and also the line from the Motel scene in the ss, about Jack "riding more than just bulls". Like I said, it may just be that something's got "lost in translation", but I thought "riding the bulls" was an euphemism for having sex, or at least trying to, with men ???
The Thanksgiving scene, when LD says about Bobby growing up to be a man, he obviously doesn't think Jack is a "real" man,and is implying he's gay, and however much Lureen enjoyed seeing Jack stand up to LD, she must have wondered if there was some truth in what LD was saying.
The blue parka scene, I think Lureen is fishing (If you'll excuse the pun ::) :-[ ) for information about Ennis, asking why he can't come to Texas and fish,she wants to know what's so special about this guy that Jack's prepared to drive all that way just to sit around fishing, when they could presumably do that anywhere there's a river ??? When she says about the new tractor coming in that week, it reminds me of Alma warning Ennis he could get fired for taking off with Jack after the Motel scene, trying to keep him home by reminding him of his responsibilities.Of course there's a difference, in that Alma knew what the fishing trip was really about, so I suppose it could just be that Lureen was annoyed form a business point of view, but I get the feeling there was more to it than that, I don't know what exactly, female intuition, maybe? ;) ???
I think if you add all that up, and add the fact that the physical side of their relationship was practically non-existent by the time they meet Randall and LaShawn (I'm guessing that was the case from the reunion onwards), and the fact that Lureen had to make all the moves when she first met Jack, I can't see how she could have not suspected. I don't think she realised untuil the phone call, just how strong the bond between Ennis and Jack was,but I definitely think she already knew that Jack was gay, and that his "fishing buddy" was more than just that.
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I'd go along with what CrimsonSky says - Jack and Lureen have to have been married for something like seventeen years, and evenin the moive, where we don;t see much of them together, there are various hints - there must have been others that we don't see, since the movie doesn't focus on their story. And I can't imagine living in the same house as someone and not having some idea about them, specially when other people made odd comments. Randall has only just met Jack but he has no problem picking up the vibes; others could easily have done the same.
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The more I watch the thing, the more it seems to me that long before Jack's death she must have "known" inwardly but not said anything/acknowledged what she knew, because it was unspecific.
What in the movie, Welshwitch, gave you the impression Lureen knew about Jack and Ennis? I can only remember 4 times we see Lureen after she and Jack get married.
One is when the two men were in her office calling Jack a pissant and Lureen doesn't even defend Jack. She never even said, hey fellas. That is my husband your are talking about. She just goes back to work.
Another is at Thanksgiving when she sits there and giggles to herself because Jack just told her old man off.
Another is when Jack is in her office looking for his blue parker and they "kiss." She didn't seem concerned Jack and Ennis were getting together as much as she seemed "concerned" that it was always Jack driving 28 hours round trip.
And the only other time I remember her is at the dance when Jack asked another man's wife to dance instead of her.
To me, none of those scenes showed she knew or even suspected. Was there something else I might have missed?
Obviously I can't speak for welshwitch, but personally I think that all those scenes you mention feature little hints that together, over the years, would have made Lureen at least suspect, if not know for sure.
The scene in the office, unless I've totally misinterpreted it, the two guys were implying that Jack was gay, with the comments about how he used to try, to ride the bulls. It always makes me think of the scene with Jimbo, where he says something similar, and also the line from the Motel scene in the ss, about Jack "riding more than just bulls". Like I said, it may just be that something's got "lost in translation", but I thought "riding the bulls" was an euphemism for having sex, or at least trying to, with men ???
The Thanksgiving scene, when LD says about Bobby growing up to be a man, he obviously doesn't think Jack is a "real" man,and is implying he's gay, and however much Lureen enjoyed seeing Jack stand up to LD, she must have wondered if there was some truth in what LD was saying.
The blue parka scene, I think Lureen is fishing (If you'll excuse the pun ::) :-[ ) for information about Ennis, asking why he can't come to Texas and fish,she wants to know what's so special about this guy that Jack's prepared to drive all that way just to sit around fishing, when they could presumably do that anywhere there's a river ??? When she says about the new tractor coming in that week, it reminds me of Alma warning Ennis he could get fired for taking off with Jack after the Motel scene, trying to keep him home by reminding him of his responsibilities.Of course there's a difference, in that Alma knew what the fishing trip was really about, so I suppose it could just be that Lureen was annoyed form a business point of view, but I get the feeling there was more to it than that, I don't know what exactly, female intuition, maybe? ;) ???
I think if you add all that up, and add the fact that the physical side of their relationship was practically non-existent by the time they meet Randall and LaShawn (I'm guessing that was the case from the reunion onwards), and the fact that Lureen had to make all the moves when she first met Jack, I can't see how she could have not suspected. I don't think she realised untuil the phone call, just how strong the bond between Ennis and Jack was,but I definitely think she already knew that Jack was gay, and that his "fishing buddy" was more than just that.
CrimsonSky, you brought up some points that made me think. So, I went to the movie and watch the 4 scenes again, 4 or 5 times. Except for one of them, I still can not see anything in the movie that indicated Lureen suspected. Lets start with the two men in her office.
One says, Ain't that the guy who use to ride the bulls. The other says, he use to try. Ok, so he wasn't very good at bull riding. But he did win a buckle and we did see him win the day he met Lureen. Even Jack sort of admitted he wasn't very good when he told Ennis the Army wouldn't take him because he was too busted up. But were the two men suggesting Jack was queer?
I don't suppose people outside of the US get to see much of rodeos but it takes a fearless man to ride the bulls and broncos. Even if you are gay you got to be a man to get onto the back of 1500 to 2000 pounds of bucking beef; beef that can stomp on your head in a second. More than a few men die every year riding the bulls. These two men know that. And the fact is many men try and fail at riding. So were they trying to suggest Jack was gay? I just can't see it. Even in my prime you couldn't get me to sit on the back of a bull in a tiedown pen and I was a pretty adventurous person. I admire rodeo riders. And some of them are pretty good looking hunks. Oops, *o)
What disturbs me most about this scene is Lureen. It was obvious the two men didn't come from or around Childress or they would have known Lureen and Jack were married. Perhaps that is why they made their remarks in front of Lureen. But Lureen never tried to stick up for her husband. She was already at the stage where she didn't care about him. All she had to say was three words; that is my husband, and she would have humiliated them. Instead, she just goes back to her work.
Now, as for the two men using "riding the bulls" as a euphemism for having sex with men. That is a very good point. But, Jack must have been a little whore approaching every man he met in order to have gotten that reputation. And what about Lureen? In 1960's and 70's Texas I don't think homosexuality was talked about very much and definately not in front of a young woman. Would she have understood the euphemism if she heard it?
The Thanksgiving scene; L.D. sure was referring to Jack when he made his "grow up to be a man" remark. But Jack proved he was a man by standing up to the old Stud Duck and telling him he would kick his ass into next week if he didn't shut up and sit down. What did the old Stud Duck do, he shut up, tucked his tail between his legs and sat down like a little boy who had just had his ears boxed by his father. I think we saw who the man was there.
And for you ladies who think watching football makes a man out of you. I am here to tell you that watching big calves, big thighs and big arms on men wearing skin tight pants is a little faggots dream......an old faggots dream also. :8
The blue parka; well, I don't think Lureen cared that Jack and Ennis were going to be together as much as she was concerned it was always Jack paying the cost of going up there. I think she was trying to squeeze another zero out of the numbers. I mean look, it was ok if Ennis came down there and they went fishing.
Back in the 70's there was a shortage of gasoline and it was expensive. Could it be that is all Lureen was concerned about?
But you know, there is something else that makes no sense about Lureen complaining about it always being Jack to go to Wyoming. Lureen knew Jack would visit his family while up there. How could he visit his family with Ennis coming down to Texas? No, had to be that extra zero she was trying to find.
My word! The things you can think of that are so *o) . Why did Jack never bring his family up to see his parents? I would think that would be one of the first things he would do. Here pop, I am a man and here is my family. And I make a good living and they live in luxury compared to you, you old son of a ...... Maybe he loved his father too much to do that to him. Hell, Jack could even have brought his family and a ton of groceries up to visit his parents while he and Ennis went fishing.
Ok, ok back on topic.
There is only one scene left CrimsonSky, and I just might give you a point here.
It seems to be a big deal that men don't want to dance with their wives, or Jack doesn't want to dance with Lureen. Lureen could have noticed that Jack and Randall were engaged in an awful lot of eye contact and smiles. Suppose Lureen's question, "Why do you think men don't want to dance with their wives." the word dance was a euphemism for have sex with. Could Lureen have suspected something watching these two men eyeballing each other all night and smiling? Possibly.
Or, was Lureen just trying to save face in front of these other people and trying to get Jack to dance with her to make the others think their marriage was normal? Either way, Jack sure put her down by asking Chatty Kathy to dance instead of her. The ultimate putdown in front of strangers.
But because of the possible euphemism and that euphemism coming from Lureen herself, I am going to give you a point there CrimsonSky. But, if she did suspect at this point, and it is a big if, this is the first point at which she suspected.
OMG, and if she did suspect, and it was with Randall who lived in Texas, could this reopen the "Did Lureen have Jack killed" thread? Imagine, Jack taking of a week or two with Randall AND Ennis, plus weekends with Randall. What was left for Lureen?
There is only one thing more that you mentioned that I would like to comment on. The back seat of the car.
Jack saw an opportunity to marry into a wealthy family and to be comfortable himself. Lureen saw a man her father wouldn't approve of and to get back at him did what she could to get pregnant knowing her father would make Jack marry her which would have been a double blow to him.
Of course, she could have already heard the rumors about Jack and this would have been yet another thorn into her father's side. But, I am convinced she WANTED to get pregnant in the back seat of that car. For, whatever reasons.
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CrimsonSky, you brought up some points that made me think. So, I went to the movie and watch the 4 scenes again, 4 or 5 times. Except for one of them, I still can not see anything in the movie that indicated Lureen suspected. Lets start with the two men in her office.
One says, Ain't that the guy who use to ride the bulls. The other says, he use to try. Ok, so he wasn't very good at bull riding. But he did win a buckle and we did see him win the day he met Lureen. Even Jack sort of admitted he wasn't very good when he told Ennis the Army wouldn't take him because he was too busted up. But were the two men suggesting Jack was queer?
I don't suppose people outside of the US get to see much of rodeos but it takes a fearless man to ride the bulls and broncos. Even if you are gay you got to be a man to get onto the back of 1500 to 2000 pounds of bucking beef; beef that can stomp on your head in a second. More than a few men die every year riding the bulls. These two men know that. And the fact is many men try and fail at riding. So were they trying to suggest Jack was gay? I just can't see it. Even in my prime you couldn't get me to sit on the back of a bull in a tiedown pen and I was a pretty adventurous person. I admire rodeo riders. And some of them are pretty good looking hunks. Oops, *o)
What disturbs me most about this scene is Lureen. It was obvious the two men didn't come from or around Childress or they would have known Lureen and Jack were married. Perhaps that is why they made their remarks in front of Lureen. But Lureen never tried to stick up for her husband. She was already at the stage where she didn't care about him. All she had to say was three words; that is my husband, and she would have humiliated them. Instead, she just goes back to her work.
Now, as for the two men using "riding the bulls" as a euphemism for having sex with men. That is a very good point. But, Jack must have been a little whore approaching every man he met in order to have gotten that reputation. And what about Lureen? In 1960's and 70's Texas I don't think homosexuality was talked about very much and definately not in front of a young woman. Would she have understood the euphemism if she heard it?
The Thanksgiving scene; L.D. sure was referring to Jack when he made his "grow up to be a man" remark. But Jack proved he was a man by standing up to the old Stud Duck and telling him he would kick his ass into next week if he didn't shut up and sit down. What did the old Stud Duck do, he shut up, tucked his tail between his legs and sat down like a little boy who had just had his ears boxed by his father. I think we saw who the man was there.
And for you ladies who think watching football makes a man out of you. I am here to tell you that watching big calves, big thighs and big arms on men wearing skin tight pants is a little faggots dream......an old faggots dream also. :8
The blue parka; well, I don't think Lureen cared that Jack and Ennis were going to be together as much as she was concerned it was always Jack paying the cost of going up there. I think she was trying to squeeze another zero out of the numbers. I mean look, it was ok if Ennis came down there and they went fishing.
Back in the 70's there was a shortage of gasoline and it was expensive. Could it be that is all Lureen was concerned about?
But you know, there is something else that makes no sense about Lureen complaining about it always being Jack to go to Wyoming. Lureen knew Jack would visit his family while up there. How could he visit his family with Ennis coming down to Texas? No, had to be that extra zero she was trying to find.
My word! The things you can think of that are so *o) . Why did Jack never bring his family up to see his parents? I would think that would be one of the first things he would do. Here pop, I am a man and here is my family. And I make a good living and they live in luxury compared to you, you old son of a ...... Maybe he loved his father too much to do that to him. Hell, Jack could even have brought his family and a ton of groceries up to visit his parents while he and Ennis went fishing.
Ok, ok back on topic.
There is only one scene left CrimsonSky, and I just might give you a point here.
It seems to be a big deal that men don't want to dance with their wives, or Jack doesn't want to dance with Lureen. Lureen could have noticed that Jack and Randall were engaged in an awful lot of eye contact and smiles. Suppose Lureen's question, "Why do you think men don't want to dance with their wives." the word dance was a euphemism for have sex with. Could Lureen have suspected something watching these two men eyeballing each other all night and smiling? Possibly.
Or, was Lureen just trying to save face in front of these other people and trying to get Jack to dance with her to make the others think their marriage was normal? Either way, Jack sure put her down by asking Chatty Kathy to dance instead of her. The ultimate putdown in front of strangers.
But because of the possible euphemism and that euphemism coming from Lureen herself, I am going to give you a point there CrimsonSky. But, if she did suspect at this point, and it is a big if, this is the first point at which she suspected.
OMG, and if she did suspect, and it was with Randall who lived in Texas, could this reopen the "Did Lureen have Jack killed" thread? Imagine, Jack taking of a week or two with Randall AND Ennis, plus weekends with Randall. What was left for Lureen?
There is only one thing more that you mentioned that I would like to comment on. The back seat of the car.
Jack saw an opportunity to marry into a wealthy family and to be comfortable himself. Lureen saw a man her father wouldn't approve of and to get back at him did what she could to get pregnant knowing her father would make Jack marry her which would have been a double blow to him.
Of course, she could have already heard the rumors about Jack and this would have been yet another thorn into her father's side. But, I am convinced she WANTED to get pregnant in the back seat of that car. For, whatever reasons.
Hi Patriot1 :) I read your post, then watched the scenes again, and although I have to say I can't see any reason why your interpretations wouldn't be correct, I also can't see anything that categorically proves that mine are incorrect either, then again, there is no "right" or "wrong" of interpretating anything in the movie, I'm happy to agree to disagree with you,and accept we all see things differently :)
There is one thing I want to clarify though, I'll be the first to admit that what I know about rodeo-ing you could write on the back of a postage stamp, but I do realise bull-riding takes a lot of guts. I wasn't suggesting for one second that being gay makes someone any less of a man (I wouldn't fancy the pants off Jack if that was the case ;)), what I meant was that to people like the guys in the office, or LD,if someone is gay, that automatically over-rides everything else, they can't see past that, and that person becomes a lesser being in their eyes, it doesn't matter how many bulls a bloke can ride, or how many ignorant a**holes he can order to sit down, :X
Something else that I thought about is, how come the guys recognised Jack anyway? They must have both seen countless bull-riders over the years, and Jack hadn't been rodeoing for a few years by then, so what was it about him that made him so memorable (I'm guessing that for the two guys it wasn't his charm and good looks ::) <^( ;)) Maybe Jack didn't approach every man in the country, but I don't think Jimbo was a one-off either, and regardless of the numbers, Jack wasn't exactly discreet, what with the barman witnessing the whole thing, then Jimbo telling his friends, I can see how there could have been rumours about Jack.(and maybe, if the guys in the office had heard rumours about Jack, they might have also mentinoned it in front of LD, not realising he was Jack's father-in-law, and that's what put the idea in LD's head?). Anyway, that's just my gut feeling, from my first viewing, every time the guy says "he used to try", the image that springs to my mind isn't Jack falling off the bull, it's Jack getting knocked back by Jimbo :X
Maybe Lureen doesn't react because she's too busy thinking about what they've said and what it means about Jack, to me it looks like she's thinking "does he mean what I think he means?" ie that Jack could be gay, but then she decides to ignore it, and carry on with what she's doing. I take your point about homosexuality not being talked about in those days, but surely most people would at least be aware that it existed, if only cause the Bible says it's a sin ::) ??? In any case, there's obviously something wrong with the marriage, as she doesn't stick up for Jack. Maybe she's feeling bitter and resentful that Jack's become emotionally and physically distant from her, and she just thinks "why should I act like a proper wife, when he doesn't act like a proper husband?", or maybe it was just that the two guys were important big-money clients and she didn't want to antagonise them and maybe lose money for the business... There as many interpretations as there are viewers, I guess, and that's one of the things I love about this film :)
Oh, and as for Lureen's reasons for wanting to get pregnant, my guess is biology! What woman in her right mind wouldn't want Jack to father her children?! :d) <^( ;)
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It also occurs to me thay Jack, when he originally arrived in Texas, was an outsider - we hear the announcer at the rodeo say "From all the way up in Lightning flat, Wyoming. He may not be a totally successful bull-rider, but he wins at least once in front of the Childress crwod then he gets the ( according to him) prettiest girl in childress, and one who's father is known to be well off. There might be an element of jealousy in all this - Jack may have been talked about as this cheeky so-and-so who came from God knows where and walked off with the local rich girl. Even if Lureenknew or suspected about Jack, there's nothing to say that she would have passed it on - would she have told LD?? And if he heard gossip or suspected something, more likely surely that he'd keep it to himself till he could get his redneck buddies involved, maybe - why would he talk about it to Lureen?
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Crimson Sky,
It's nice to see another member here comfirm my recently acquired interpretation of the line: '"Didn't that pissant used to ride the bulls?" "He used to try."' It seemed to me a way the screenwriters used to get the reference to Jack's "riding more than bulls" into the film without access to a narrator to make that comment. And the spin the second man puts on the word "try" does make me think immediately of Jimbo's brushoff. I think these scenes are meant to suggest that Jack is more open about his sexuality than Ennis and that this created danger for him in his rural Texas environment, where gossip would be bound to follow him.
As to what Lureen knew and when she knew it, I believe she had to have had suspicions about Jack, for the reasons mentioned above, early on, but that Ennis's revelation about his summer on Brokeback with Jack may have finally confirmed it for her. Certainly it drove home the point that Jack's meetings with Ennis were more than flings. One generally asks to have one's ashes spread in a place that has maximum emotional significance, and she confirms Jack says it's his favorite place. Now she knows that drinking was not the source of its importance for Jack. Ennis was.
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Did she know? Let's see she's married to the guy for almost 20 years, He goes off on "fishing trips" with some guy every year 2 or 3 times a year. Guy NEVER comes to Texas to meet the fam. The fact that these trips are'nt shared with anyone else,just the one guy for 20 years? She finds out from Ennis that BB mountain is a real place where he and Jack spent a summer together. I think Lureen was a smart enough woman to put the pieces of this puzzle together especially after the phone call from Ennis after Jack's death. I think she knew As always,IMHO.
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It hadn't occurred to me before,aintfoolin, but of course going off with the same guy "fishing" several times a year would e an odd thiong to do if you never fished alone or with others, or even at all, the rest of the time. It must have been pretty obvious to Lureen for a long time that the friend Jack met while fishing was someone pretty special/important to Jack.
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i think she knew.
i dont think jack was the kind of person who could keep such a meaningful and important fact about who he was a secret forever... especially to the woman he was married to, in love or not. he would seem like the type of guy who would keep it inside for an amount of time but then he just wouldnt be able to live the lie anymore and not 'own up' to the fact that he loved another man so deeply. i mean, ennis was such a huge part of jack's heart, i just cant emagine jack keeping it inside for all that time. after all, he was the emotionally open one of the two. i dont know, i just dont think he could live without letting her know the thruth of his love for ennis... even if he just told her the basics, atleast he'd feel like he could live his life a little more truly and openly. it had to be killing him inside. i just cant emagine the pain. i'm sure he tried to drink himself to sleep night after night, trying to escape the lingering thoughts of how deeply he cared for and was hurt by ennis.
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i think she knew.
i dont think jack was the kind of person who could keep such a meaningful and important fact about who he was a secret forever... especially to the woman he was married to, in love or not. he would seem like the type of guy who would keep it inside for an amount of time but then he just wouldnt be able to live the lie anymore and not 'own up' to the fact that he loved another man so deeply. i mean, ennis was such a huge part of jack's heart, i just cant emagine jack keeping it inside for all that time. after all, he was the emotionally open one of the two. i dont know, i just dont think he could live without letting her know the thruth of his love for ennis... even if he just told her the basics, atleast he'd feel like he could live his life a little more truly and openly. it had to be killing him inside. i just cant emagine the pain. i'm sure he tried to drink himself to sleep night after night, trying to escape the lingering thoughts of how deeply he cared for and was hurt by ennis.
Hello erica loves jack. So do you think that Jack was totally wrong about their marriage being "normal and all"? I find this fascinating. Could he have been hiding the truth from Ennis, or did he really believe that this is so?
So hard to read Jack in may of the scenes. He can be quite mysterious too.
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i think he and lureen had as normal of a relationship as they could, with jack being gay and all. i mean, you can see in the thanksgiving scene, he is a husband and father. but then again, like jack told ennis later on, they could have their relationship over the phone. so obviously they were husband and wife and cared for their son and lived together, but they didnt love each other and show affection. it seemed like they were a routine kind of couple. they were married but lived their own lives kind of. jack put himself in a heck of a sucky situation. it's very very sad.
.....and then i think of what it would have been like if he and ennis had gotten their own cow and calf operation... how different their lives would be.
tpe, when you say 'Could he have been hiding the truth from Ennis, or did he really believe that this is so?' what do you mean??
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Did she know? Let's see she's married to the guy for almost 20 years, He goes off on "fishing trips" with some guy every year 2 or 3 times a year. Guy NEVER comes to Texas to meet the fam. The fact that these trips are'nt shared with anyone else,just the one guy for 20 years? She finds out from Ennis that BB mountain is a real place where he and Jack spent a summer together. I think Lureen was a smart enough woman to put the pieces of this puzzle together especially after the phone call from Ennis after Jack's death. I think she knew As always,IMHO.
Great post aintfoolin. ^f^ My theory as to whether or not Lureen knew is . . .
If I can't see it it's not happening.
I think deep down she knew, but didn't want to believe it and /or she wouldn't believe it unless she could see it with her own two eyes.
I hope that made sense.
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I agree. there are things that it's difficult to face, specially if you have no idea how to deal with them. i think Lureen just didn't ask herself any awkward questions. Jack and she were in effect business partners, hence Jack's comment about the marriage that they could do over the phone, and as long as what he did was kept well away from her I think she chose not to look too deeply into it.
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I was inspired by some comments made by MG over at the Randall thread.
I have gradually come to suspect that Lureen probably knew more about Jack's preferences, but did nothing because she had become indifferent.
I found it suggestive that whereas Ennis was shown in several love scenes with Alma, we never really see Jack and Lureen this way after the "making out in the car" scene before they were married.
Did Lureen suspect/know about Jack preferring men? I know this may lead to some speculation, but we might as well ask the question.
Was Lureen in fact all business in the later years, or did she use the business to hide a rather unpleasant understanding about Jack and her marriage?
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I had realized that this old thread was close enough to my discussion about Lureen being all business as a way of hiding from herself an unpleasant fact.
I have merged my topic with this one. Good to resurrect this thread...
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Well NoReins.....there has to be something in the movie that makes you believe she suspected. I mean, we just can't makes things up. By the time Ennis called her she knew about Jack and after talking to Ennis she knew a whole lot more. But I just don't see any indication at all she suspected during their marriage.
I agree with you, Patriot. I can see nothing in her vocal inflections or facial expressions that indicate she knows. In the scenes you mentioned above a few posts, I detect nothing held in. I don't think she suspects anything. Remember, Jack also visits his parents' place when he goes up to see Ennis. I think that fact deflects what could overwise have become suspicion. It's only natural her husband wants to spend a little time with his folks, no? Well, I'm not even too sure she catches on during the phone call. Her tears and coldness could just be a reflection of what she was feeling -- perhaps of regret for what she might have been able to do to make their marriage better, but didn't do. Just MHO. but I think her smarts had more to do with business; she didn't put any real effort into her marriage, her husbnad, or her child. I doubt if she was too in tune with them.
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Did she know? Let's see she's married to the guy for almost 20 years, He goes off on "fishing trips" with some guy every year 2 or 3 times a year. Guy NEVER comes to Texas to meet the fam. The fact that these trips are'nt shared with anyone else,just the one guy for 20 years? She finds out from Ennis that BB mountain is a real place where he and Jack spent a summer together. I think Lureen was a smart enough woman to put the pieces of this puzzle together especially after the phone call from Ennis after Jack's death. I think she knew As always,IMHO.
This post sums up pretty much what I think. Mind you, although I think Lureen figured it out during her phone conversation with Ennis, I'm not sure she knew all along. Still, his fishing trips must've made her wonder, what's so special about this guy that Jack is willing to take these incredibly long trips 2-3 times a year just to see him. Her question to Jack in the "blue parka" scene indicates that she's been thinking about it. She must have realized that this "friend" is very special to Jack for him to do that.
Now, Jack tells her that he wants his ashes to be scattered on Brokeback Mountain. He tells her it's his favorite place in the world. And then she finds out that he spent a summer on Brokeback with Ennis back in '63 and it all adds together - Ennis is the reason for the long trips all these years, Ennis is the reason why Brokeback is such a special place to Jack. Like aintfoolin says, Lureen is a smart woman. Even if she hasn't known until now, now she knows.
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The more I think about it, the more I think she "knew" but didn't want to know, rather like Ennis "knows" about his feelings for Jack and what they say about him but doesn't want to know. there are several people in this story busily avoiding asking the questions they don't want to hear the answers to.
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I think Lureen is a scrappy little thing, judging from the first time she sees Jack and gets him in the backseat of the car. She's not shy or retiring in the least. That's why I think she did not suspect the real relationship between j and E. She would have come out swinging. She wasn't like Alma -- one who could keep it all inside. Lureen, I believe, would have faced Jack down and, as we say in the mid-west, "threw her butt around". She may have gone so far as to divorce him on the spot. I just don't think her personality ( what we know of it) would let her look the other way or live in suspicion and not confront Jack. I think she was too proud to live that way. She deserved better and knew it.
I don't think it's so weird to have a long-distance friend you visit -- especially since, as Jack explained to Lureen, Ennis's truck couldn't have stood a trip to Texas, so Jack had to do the travelling. Even when Lureen is fussing about Jack always being the one who has to go to Ennis, she's not upset about it. She just mentions it as something that didn't seem "fair" to her. They should both share the expense and time of traveling. i don't think she is ever hinting that they shouldn't visit one another. She seems cool with that situation. It's just that the onus is always on Jack to do the driving.
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Thanks lamuisica, keren, and WW for voicing out your opinions here.
I am sympathetic to what WW pointed out -- that she sort of knew but refused to know. But I also understand that the movie gives very little indication that she did know.
Personally, I think Jack's death may have revealed to her something about her husband, so I would say that she probably knew something upon Jack's demise and right before the call from Ennis. Ennis's call revealed to her Jack's true love, I suppose. At the very least, Lureen probably had to face the reality after Jack died.
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Personally, I don't think she knew that Jack was gay until that phone call. She knew she had a bad relationship with Jack, but that's not very uncommon considering that nearly half of marriages ended in a divorce. I don't think that's a good indication that she knew. She did know Jack has a fishing buddy and he doesn't want to dance with her, but that doesn't mean he wanted to dance with men either. Did she know that Randall was gay too since he doesn't want to dance with Lashwan? I just think she was embittered and being sarcastic when she ask Jack about not dancing with her.
Then came Ennis' phone call. That changes everything. Not the entire conversation but just one important sentense: "No ma'am, we was herding sheep up on Brokeback back in '63". That's when she knew. She already knew that Ennis was the fishing buddy when she pick up the phone, but no reaction there.
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Personally, I don't think she knew that Jack was gay until that phone call. She knew she had a bad relationship with Jack, but that's not very uncommon considering that nearly half of marriages ended in a divorce. I don't think that's a good indication that she knew. She did know Jack has a fishing buddy and he doesn't want to dance with her, but that doesn't mean he wanted to dance with men either. Did she know that Randall was gay too since he doesn't want to dance with Lashwan? I just think she was embittered and being sarcastic when she ask Jack about not dancing with her.
Then came Ennis' phone call. That changes everything. Not the entire conversation but just one important sentense: "No ma'am, we was herding sheep up on Brokeback back in '63". That's when she knew. She already knew that Ennis was the fishing buddy when she pick up the phone, but no reaction there.
JT, so you think that as Lureen was convinced that Jack died in a regular accident while changing a flat? Because if Jack did indeed die the way it was shown in the flashback, it would have been very hard not to ask questions. This goes back to the question as to how Jack exactly died...
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JT, so you think that as Lureen was convinced that Jack died in a regular accident while changing a flat? Because if Jack did indeed die the way it was shown in the flashback, it would have been very hard not to ask questions. This goes back to the question as to how Jack exactly died...
OT: Nope. The way I see it, Jack died in a gay bashing period. If Lureen was the cause of Jack's demise, then it was because of her not liking Jack. He was considered a "looser" by her standard and doesn't want to shame her family name. She might have suspect something unusual when Randall step into the picture, but before that, I don't think she knew. To answer your question, she definately knew that Jack was attacked, but I'm not necessary sure if she knew what the motive was. Unlike Earl's, Jack's death was more a mystery. ~) *o)
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OT: Nope. The way I see it, Jack died in a gay bashing period. If Lureen was the cause of Jack's demise, then it was because of her not liking Jack. He was considered a "looser" by her standard and doesn't want to shame her family name. She might have suspect something unusual when Randall step into the picture, but before that, I don't think she knew. To answer your question, she definately knew that Jack was attacked, but I'm not necessary sure if she knew what the motive was. Unlike Earl's, Jack's death was more a mystery. ~) *o)
OK, I see your point about Lureen.
Personally, I though that she she came to know about Jack's gayness dues to the circumstances surreounding the death (yes, I also believw Jack was attacked). But this opinion is just as good as yours. IN fact, there is no way of knowing for sure that she knew. She could have been just hiding the truth that Jack was murdered, without really knowing why he was killed. She must have thought it difficult to explain to others without a motive, so she invented the story about the flat tire.
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From her flat tone and the way she recites the accident's story, I thought it was pretty clear that Lureen was lying. She sounded like she's repeating a well rehearsed story that she told people dozens of times. So my guess is that she knew Jack was murdered, and she probably knew why. Still, could be that she didn't make the connection and still related to Ennis as "the fishing buddy" - gays can have friends who are just friends and not lovers, right? She said "Jack used to keep his friends' phone numbers in his head", she talked in plural so to my understanding he had more friends apart from Ennis, at least as far as Lureen knew. So maybe although she knows Jack was gay, she still thinks of Ennis as just one of Jack's friends, and only after what he says about herding sheep together on Brokeback back in 63 she realizes what Ennis really was - the love of Jack's life.
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From her flat tone and the way she recites the accident's story, I thought it was pretty clear that Lureen was lying. She sounded like she's repeating a well rehear**d story that she told people dozens of times. So my guess is that she knew Jack was murdered, and she probably knew why. Still, could be that she didn't make the connection and still related to Ennis as "the fishing buddy" - gays can have friends who are just friends and not lovers, right? She said "Jack used to keep his friends' phone numbers in his head", she talked in plural so to my understanding he had more friends apart from Ennis, at least as far as Lureen knew. So maybe although she knows Jack was gay, she still thinks of Ennis as just one of Jack's friends, and only after what he says about herding sheep together on Brokeback back in 63 she realizes what Ennis really was - the love of Jack's life.
This was what I also thought. I assumed that she knew, but had not yet made the connection between Jack and Ennis. And I thought that the story was a way of throwing people off the scent, and she initially thought that Ennis was a person who had to be diverted from knowing the truth.
But I agree that there are other possibilities to this: that she didn't know until she talked with Ennis, although I did think that it would have been hard for Lureen not to have speculated on certain reasons behind Jack's murder.
Had Jack already told her about the planned divorce, I wonder?
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This was what I also thought. I assumed that she knew, but had not yet made the connection between Jack and Ennis. And I thought that the story was a way of throwing people off the scent, and she initially thought that Ennis was a person who had to be diverted from knowing the truth.
Same here. Somewhat off topic but related, it always seemed to me that both Jack's wife and Jack's mother had similar moments of insight and enlightenment regarding Ennis' involvement with Jack as a result of Ennis' contact with both. When Ennis picks out the shirts from the closet, Jack's mother immediately knew he was the one in the "other" shirt. When Ennis spoke about being up on Brokeback in '63 Lureen knew why it was "Jack's favorite place".
Interesting that Ennis "outed" himself in both cases, possibly unknowningly. Would he have made the same moves, said the same words, had he known that the two women would immediately make the "he's Jack's lover" connection?
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I still think some credence could be given to the scenarioi whereby Lureen is told how Jack dies ( the flat tire theory), believes it and tells it to others, whether that is the truth or not. It is highly conceivable that she did not see Jack after he was killed. There could have been a closed casket. She might have really believed a story her father, lawyers, etc. fed her. I'm not saying that's what happened, but I think it might have.
I am just not convinced that she knew what Ennis was to Jack. Had she known before Jack died, I think she would have killed him (hyperbole). Had she learned about it later, she would have been angry. What I read in her face, eyes, tone of voice when speaking to Ennis on the phone is frustration and great disappointment. Maybe this speaks of Anne's acting ability. She lets us see all sorts of possibilities within her performance.
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Same here. Somewhat off topic but related, it always seemed to me that both Jack's wife and Jack's mother had similar moments of insight and enlightenment regarding Ennis' involvement with Jack as a result of Ennis' contact with both. When Ennis picks out the shirts from the closet, Jack's mother immediately knew he was the one in the "other" shirt. When Ennis spoke about being up on Brokeback in '63 Lureen knew why it was "Jack's favorite place". Interesting that Ennis "outed" himself in both cases, possibly unknowningly. Would he have made the same moves, said the same words, had he known that the two women would immediately make the he's "Jack's lover" connection?
Not really OT, jackster. I think a lot can be understood in the way Lureen and Mrs. Twist came to an understanding of who Ennis was.
I wonder if Ennis would have outed himself if he had a way of not doing it. That is, I think in the case of Lureen, he probably wasn't even aware that he outed himself, or at least he looked like he was not aware. As in the case of Jack's mom, I think he could not have hidden the connection, because he had to have the shirts, and Jack's mom would know at an instant the significance of his choice.
Wonderful correspondence, Jackster. It gets me to think about this more...
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I still think some credence could be given to the scenarioi whereby Lureen is told how Jack dies ( the flat tire theory), believes it and tells it to others, whether that is the truth or not. It is highly conceivable that she did not see Jack after he was killed. There could have been a closed casket. She might have really believed a story her father, lawyers, etc. fed her. I'm not saying that's what happened, but I think it might have.
I am just not convinced that she knew what Ennis was to Jack. Had she known before Jack died, I think she would have killed him (hyperbole). Had she learned about it later, she would have been angry. What I read in her face, eyes, tone of voice when speaking to Ennis on the phone is frustration and great disappointment. Maybe this speaks of Anne's acting ability. She lets us see all sorts of possibilities within her performance.
You touch on something, lamusica , that is the reason why some people did think that Lureen had a hand in Jack's death (see the thread on this topic). But I think knowledge of Jack's gayness, and not necessarily his relationship with Ennis, was qwhat Lureen had immediately after Jack's death, or perhaps even before.
But I do get your point: it is very difficult to finesse the question as to how much LUreen knew and at what point did she know. It's all part of this great subtlety that is BBM.
That scene was Anne's greatest one in the entire movie, IMO.
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I wonder if Ennis would have outed himself if he had a way of not doing it. That is, I think in the case of Lureen, he probably wasn't even aware that he outed himself, or at least he looked like he was not aware.
Ennis' reply to her is so short here:
. . . No ma'am, we herded sheep on Brokeback one summer back in '63 . . .
You do have to wonder, Ennis certainly was thinkin' about what else they did up on Brokeback that summer and herdin' sheep certainly took the back seat to Jack and the sex. Seems like maybe he caught himself here talkin' too much, lettin' the cat out of the bag maybe. When she then says it was "his favorite place" Ennis turns the subject away, like "OK, enough about that" and moves on to Lighting Flat and his folks.
Seems like Lureen would have had MANY questions about this place that was her husbands favorite, where he wanted his ashes, but which she didn't even know where it was. Well, Lureen here's the guy that can tell you all about it - but that's it, end of subject. Seems like there is a "frission" (to quote AP) over the telephone wire between these two - an unspoken yet understood acknowledgement of territory that was to be left alone.
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Ennis' reply to her is so short here:
. . . No ma'am, we herded sheep on Brokeback one summer back in '63 . . .
You do have to wonder, Ennis certainly was thinkin' about what else they did up on Brokeback that summer and herdin' sheep certainly took the back seat to Jack and the sex. Seems like maybe he caught himself here talkin' too much, lettin' the cat out of the bag maybe. When she then says it was "his favorite place" Ennis turns the subject away, like "OK, enough about that" and moves on to Lighting Flat and his folks.
Seems like Lureen would have had MANY questions about this place that was her husbands favorite, where he wanted his ashes, but which she didn't even know where it was. Well, Lureen here's the guy that can tell you all about it - but that's it, end of subject. Seems like there is a "frission" (to quote AP) over the telephone wire between these two - an unspoken yet understood acknowledgement of territory that was to be left alone.
Given that Ennis was probably in shock at the time, I would think it likely that he was not as cautious as he normally would be. At least Lureen was perceptive enough to get the drift, even if Ennis perhaps didn't exactly mean to say as much.
"Frission" is the right word. And yes, there was an understanding at the end of it, uncomfortable though it may have been for either of them.
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Same here. Somewhat off topic but related, it always seemed to me that both Jack's wife and Jack's mother had similar moments of insight and enlightenment regarding Ennis' involvement with Jack as a result of Ennis' contact with both. When Ennis picks out the shirts from the closet, Jack's mother immediately knew he was the one in the "other" shirt. When Ennis spoke about being up on Brokeback in '63 Lureen knew why it was "Jack's favorite place".
Interesting that Ennis "outed" himself in both cases, possibly unknowningly. Would he have made the same moves, said the same words, had he known that the two women would immediately make the "he's Jack's lover" connection?
I think there were also some differences between Lureen and Mom Twist's insight on Ennis relationship with Jack's. Jack didn't hesitate talking about Ennis in front of his parents. He talked about bringing Ennis home and already brought his shirt home. I'm sure Mom knows that the shirt wasn't Jack's and knew Ennis was more special than just a friend. Mom Twist was way more accepting of Ennis. With Lureen, Jack tried to hide his relationship with Ennis from her. She knew the name "Ennis Del Mar" but don't know who he was. Ennis was just a buddy. So to her, it was more of a shock in the end.
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Good point, JT. Mom Twist was just happy that somebody besides herself loved her boy. Lureen, on the other hand...........Jack knew to whom he could talk about Ennis.
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The reason why I thought that the moment Ennis told her about herding sheep with Jack on Brokeback was the moment of realization for Lureen was because of that little noise she made and the way her eyes suddenly filled with tears. It looked like she suddenly understood something, something that shocked her.
As for Jack's mom, I thought she knew because of the way she offered Ennis to go up to Jack's room. I always thought that it's something very personal to do, not something you would offer anyone. And the way she'd put her hand on Ennis's shoulder, it looked like she was the one comforting him and not the other way around. Maybe she knew what Ennis was going to find in Jack's room - she didn't look surpried at all when he came back down with the shirts. Almost like she expected that.
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I think there were also some differences between Lureen and Mom Twist's insight on Ennis relationship with Jack's. Jack didn't hesitate talking about Ennis in front of his parents. He talked about bringing Ennis home and already brought his shirt home. I'm sure Mom knows that the shirt wasn't Jack's and knew Ennis was more special than just a friend. Mom Twist was way more accepting of Ennis. With Lureen, Jack tried to hide his relationship with Ennis from her. She knew the name "Ennis Del Mar" but don't know who he was. Ennis was just a buddy. So to her, it was more of a shock in the end.
Moreover, Lureen was probably too preoccupied with the business to listen or to care. THis was not the case with Mrs. Twist, who was clearly devoted to both husband and son. I wonder if Mrs. Twist and Lureen ever met? Probably not.
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The reason why I thought that the moment Ennis told her about herding sheep with Jack on Brokeback was the moment of realization for Lureen was because of that little noise she made and the way her eyes suddenly filled with tears. It looked like she suddenly understood something, something that shocked her.
As for Jack's mom, I thought she knew because of the way she offered Ennis to go up to Jack's room. I always thought that it's something very personal to do, not something you would offer anyone. And the way she'd put her hand on Ennis's shoulder, it looked like she was the one comforting him and not the other way around. Maybe she knew what Ennis was going to find in Jack's room - she didn't look surpried at all when he came back down with the shirts. Almost like she expected that.
Yes, the noise Lureen emitted, and the shifting of the eyes indicate that she had just realized something, no? Something that made her very uncomfortable, IMO.
For me, the indicator for Mrs. Twist knowing is the gentle nod of recognition she gave Ennis when he asked for the shirts -- as if she knew all along that he would find them. She didn't even try to inspect what it was that Ennis selected...
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For me, the indicator for Mrs. Twist knowing is the gentle nod of recognition she gave Ennis when he asked for the shirts -- as if she knew all along that he would find them.
My reading of this scene too, tpe. When she makes that little nod and cracks that little smile or grin (another trait that Jack showed on occasion) in my mind I see her thoughts as "Yep, he's the one, I thought so". She knew there was only one other person in the world who would recognize the shirt that her son Jack treasured, it's original owner. One of the beauties of this scene is that there are virtually no words, Ennis doesn't ask, he just pleads with his eyes while clutching the rolled up bundle, she just nods back. Fantastic ability here between these two gifted individuals (Heath & Roberta).
The fact that Ennis is in effect "coming out" to her at this moment, acknowledging to her that there was something really deep here symbolized by this sharing of a piece of personal clothing makes this scene really gripping to me. He knew what his taking the shirts from the closet would reveal and yet he did it, his transformation had begun there.
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My reading of this scene too, tpe. When she makes that little nod and cracks that little smile or grin (another trait that Jack showed on occasion) in my mind I see her thoughts as "Yep, he's the one, I thought so". She knew there was only one other person in the world who would recognize the shirt that her son Jack treasured, it's original owner. One of the beauties of this scene is that there are virtually no words, Ennis doesn't ask, he just pleads with his eyes while clutching the rolled up bundle, she just nods back. Fantastic ability here between these two gifted individuals (Heath & Roberta).
The fact that Ennis is in effect "coming out" to her at this moment, acknowledging to her that there was something really deep here symbolized by this sharing of a piece of personal clothing makes this scene really gripping to me. He knew what his taking the shirts from the closet would reveal and yet he did it, his transformation had begun there.
It's amazing how much seems to be said with that simple nod.
And with Lureen, those little sounds mask something unpleasant deep down, no?
The reactions to Ennis's coming out to them constrast effectively. Where there was empathy and understanding in one, there was hypocrisy and suppression in the other. Lurren was clearly "squirming" uncomfortably when the truth dawned on her. You can tell that she wanted out as quickly as possible. With Jack's mom, there was that smile of acknowledgment -- so patient and so comforting. And lastly, there was the invitation to come again...
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And lastly, there was the invitation to come again...
Yes, quite a contrast to Lureen's almost slamming down the telephone without even a "goodbye". Love vs. contempt.
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Yes, quite a contrast to Lureen's almost slamming down the telephone without even a "goodbye". Love vs. contempt.
But Lureen crtainly got what she deserved. If she was hurt or if she felt humiliated, she can only blame herself. Not that she could have changed things between her and Jack, but she could have realized/faced the truth sooner, and perhaps arranged for a separate piece. She was no longer in love with Jack in the end anyway, no?
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She was no longer in love with Jack in the end anyway, no?
Yeah. When she "discovered" (just then on the phone) that Ennis had been in the picture since '63 - before she knew Jack - she was probably also PO'd that she'd been led along all those years. Always amazed me that Jack never discussed this with her at all - in how many years? She didn't even know where BBM was. I guess as the trailer says "there are lies we we have to tell". Mrs. Twist on the other hand possibly knew about Jack's feelings since he was little. Mother's often do, no matter how hard you try and hide them.
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My reading of this scene too, tpe. When she makes that little nod and cracks that little smile or grin (another trait that Jack showed on occasion) in my mind I see her thoughts as "Yep, he's the one, I thought so". She knew there was only one other person in the world who would recognize the shirt that her son Jack treasured, it's original owner. One of the beauties of this scene is that there are virtually no words, Ennis doesn't ask, he just pleads with his eyes while clutching the rolled up bundle, she just nods back. Fantastic ability here between these two gifted individuals (Heath & Roberta).
The fact that Ennis is in effect "coming out" to her at this moment, acknowledging to her that there was something really deep here symbolized by this sharing of a piece of personal clothing makes this scene really gripping to me. He knew what his taking the shirts from the closet would reveal and yet he did it, his transformation had begun there.
Beautiful comment, jackster.
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Yeah. When she "discovered" (just then on the phone) that Ennis had been in the picture since '63 - before she knew Jack - she was probably also PO'd that she'd been led along all those years. Always amazed me that Jack never discussed this with her at all - in how many years? She didn't even know where BBM was. I guess as the trailer says "there are lies we we have to tell". Mrs. Twist on the other hand possibly knew about Jack's feelings since he was little. Mother's often do, no matter how hard you try and hide them.
True intimacy was the advantage Mrs. Twist had over LUreen. I guess Jack just stopped trying to communicate to her at some point in their marriage -- perhaps soon after the child was born. The blue parka scene already showed them to be fairly didtant and a bit cold to each other. The screenplay takes note of the kiss they shared in the end. It was quite telling -- barely a kiss...
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It's become a marriage of convenience and I think based on a sort of version of "Don't ask, don't tell". It's obvious that Lureen wonders about this man Jack makes so much effort to see and wonders why he never appears in Childress - that his truck wouldn't make it that far is a bit unconvincing. I think Lureen sensed something but didn't want to find out; Jack was there, the father of her son, who would one day inherit the family business, Jack was doing a good job as a salesman, was there to accompany her to social events - why rock the boat? After all, whatever he was involved in he kept well away from her and from Texas, his parents were known to live far away so there was nothing odd in his going off to visit. You can often repress thoughts to the degree that you simply don't let them come to the top of your consciousness; when she had to talk to Ennis Lureen had to deal with things she would have preferred not to acknowledge.
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It's become a marriage of convenience and I think based on a sort of version of "Don't ask, don't tell". It's obvious that Lureen wonders about this man Jack makes so much effort to see and wonders why he never appears in Childress - that his truck wouldn't make it that far is a bit unconvincing. I think Lureen sensed something but didn't want to find out; Jack was there, the father of her son, who would one day inherit the family business, Jack was doing a good job as a salesman, was there to accompany her to social events - why rock the boat? After all, whatever he was involved in he kept well away from her and from Texas, his parents were known to live far away so there was nothing odd in his going off to visit. You can often repress thoughts to the degree that you simply don't let them come to the top of your consciousness; when she had to talk to Ennis Lureen had to deal with things she would have preferred not to acknowledge.
I do think Lureen didn't entirely believe Jack, but she had ceased to care in the later years. Perhaps she even thought that Jack was carrying out affairs with other women out of state, and that Ennis was not a real person. But she probably did not mind so long as Jack was discreet in his comings and goings and that he took care of his part of the family business. It had certainly become a marriage of convenience.
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I guess Lureen didn't suspect about Jack and Ennis. She was too busy with money and business, although she liked Jack.
She thinks Ennis is just her husband's fishing or hunting buddy in Wyoming, where Jack was raised and probably Ennis was a childhood friend of Jack.
She really wouldn't say all those things about Brokeback Mountain and the ashes if she suspect.
And the story she told about Jack's death, I really think Lureen wouldn't tell such a detailed story like that for someone she doesn't even know, if that story wasn't true. If she just wanted to lie or hide something, she would invent some short and simple story.
They found Jack already dead, nobody saw anything... why would they create a fake accident? They probably found Jack dead next to the truck and the rim of the tire next to him.
That's why I think Lureen knew nothing and Jack really died at the truck accident.
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I guess Lureen didn't suspect about Jack and Ennis or Jack and Randall. She was too busy with money and business, although she liked Jack.
She thinks Ennis is just her husband's fishing or hunting buddy in Wyoming, where Jack was raised and probably Ennis was a childhood friend of Jack.
She really wouldn't say all those things about Brokeback Mountain and the ashes if she suspect.
And the story she told about Jack's death, I really think Lureen wouldn't tell such a detailed story like that for someone she doesn't even know, if that story wasn't true. If she just wanted to lie or hide something, she would invent some short and simple story.
They found Jack already dead, nobody saw anything... why would they create a fake accident? They probably found Jack dead next to the truck and the rim of the tire next to him.
That's why I think Lureen knew nothing and Jack really died at the truck accident.
Hmm...I agree with what you said about her not knowing when Jack was alive...I think she was too focused on her business, and not very focused enough on her marriage to realize that it was a sham. Also, I guess Jack was a lot more careful about hiding it than Ennis, ironically. I think Lureen was smart enough to figure it out if Jack gave any hints, but it doesn't look like he did. Perhaps Lureen's father suspected that Jack was gay. I say this because of what he said during the Thanksgiving scene with their son Bobby. "You want your son to be a man, don't you?"...it seemed like a jab at Jack, and Lureen's father stopped just short of calling him a queer right there. Perhaps Lureen's father tried to discuss with Lureen his suspicions about Jack, but she just brushed it off and didn't really think about it. I also think about the beginning when Jack was more obvious...before he met Lureen. They lived in a small town and those guys at the bar when Jack flirted with the rodeo clown, they obviously knew then that he is gay. So maybe they talked about it to other people, and that is how Lureen's father would have found out early on. I do believe he suspected.
However, I disagree with the other part. I believe she found out the truth about Jack after his death, which I also believe he was murdered, and Lureen knew. There are many hints that the story she gives Ennis is false. The tone of her voice, how the story sounds like she'd practiced it, and also the biggest clue of all is how she starts to fight back tears at the end when she finally realizes who Ennis is. I think the cops told Lureen that Jack was beaten to death in a hate crime, and that is when she finally found out. She felt embarassed that her marriage was a sham the whole time, and so she made up the story about the accident. When Ennis first calls her, she did not know who he was. I don't think she ever really thought he existed! All she knew was that Jack had a friend he would go visit a few times a year, a friend in Wyoming. She knew that Jack was born in Wyoming, and that his parents lived there, and remember what she tells Ennis when he tells her about Brokeback Mountain? "Oh, so it's a real place? I thought it was imaginary, where bluebirds sing and whiskey springs." Over the years, she realized Jack was a big dreamer, so she doubted if this place was even real, and if Ennis was even real either. Maybe she believed that every time Jack told her he was going to visit his friend, he was actually just going to visit his parents. But then Jack was murdered, and the police told her, and so she found out that he was gay...then when Ennis calls she figures it out.
She realizes that Ennis is Jack's lover...the one he's been seeing all those years...the real love of his life. That is why you can see the tears starting, and she's trying to hide her anger and pain. As for why she made up the story...I do think it was a story she made up for all her friends and people in her town to hear, and when Ennis called, not knowing who he was at first (or thinking he was just another friend of Jack's), told him the same contrived story. When she realizes that he was Jack's lover at the end, she probably felt bad about lying to him but also maybe anger towards him...because he was the person Jack loved and not her, her marriage was a lie. And the police would know if he died from a tire rim or being beaten, because injuries from a deliberate beating would obviously be different from a tire rim accidentally hitting him in the face.