Topic: Randall: A Wake Up Call?

[manhattangirl]

We've discuss, and it's been written about in various article about wheather Jack and Ennis was gay, bi, straight.  These men indeed married, and had children.  For twenty years they continued their relationship during the changes in their lives. 

We have Alma and Lureen their wives who loved them in their own way,  but now Randall is introduced, the dynamics change.   Jack we all agree was seeing Randall, knowingly not telling Ennis, but wisely holding that  information back, but telling Ennis in so many words, he wasn't exactly deprived himself sexually which forced Ennis to make that threat to him.   

What I'm trying ask if Ennis and Jack could freely talk to each other about the women in their lives, why do you think speaking of another man was apparently off limits?   

Why did Jack hedged in what he was willing to tell Ennis at that final confrontation.  Why was Ennis so angered to point of violence at the hint of Jack being with someone else? 

If woman couldn't come between them, why would another man could be such a threat to them?  Do you think either of them understood what was going on between them, the Final Confrontation was kind of a wake up call, would they have found the answer?  And Ennis more so than Jack could find some peace in who he was, if  he just accepted it at that moment, and give up the struggle of denying himself the truth and a life with Jack? 

[tpe]

For me, it showed that their relationships with women were considered non-threatening.  This is typical of many gay relationships where friendships and even liasons with women (wives, in many instances) were seen as necessary to keep face with a less tolerant society.

Liasons with men would have been tantamount to infidelity, unless the relationship was understood to be an open relationship in the first place.

[FlwrChild]

Very true Thomas.

And I think even more than that, the topic was off limits because Ennis was so determined to believe his "I'm not queer" declaration. To acknowledge other men would make it more than 'a one shot thing'. If Ennis were to face the possibility that Jack was gay, he'd have to look at what that might say about himself. And he was not able to do that.

I think most of the time (with the exception of that 'maybe you should move to Texas' conversation), Jack was pretty good at reading those signals from Ennis. And I think he knew that admitting to seeing other men would mean both personal betrayal and looking too closely at his own nature for Ennis. Seeing other women could be seen as just a necessary measure in the world they lived in. Seeing other men a very different thing indeed.

[welshwitch]

Lureen becomes Jack's disguise among the rednecks of Texas, I think. and she's still there when Randall comes along. and she's pretty indifferent as long as Jack is there most of the time selling machinery and making money.

Alma is to Ennis his proof that he's not queer - how can he be when he's a married man with two children? It's after the divorce that he starts wondering whether people are looking at him oddly, whether because there's been gossip about the divorce, or Alma's has said anything or it's just his own neurotic fears manifesting themselves. Once Alma divorces him he has a problem - if he's not going to commit to Jack, what is he going to do? Alma was also a sort of excuse, the reason why he couldn't go after that sweet life together. But he can't bring himself to replace her - in the end he abandons Cassie because either consciously or subconsciously he knows she'd be as much of an emotional irrelevance in his life as Alma was.

I think he also subconsciously sees Lureen in the same way and in the same sort of relation to Jack as Alma was to him. Women are no threat to their relationship - they're social necessities. But another man is a different thing - if Jack finds another man that's a demonstration that whatever he said on Brokeback, he's queer; which means that Ennis must be just like Jack and just like Randall. And if Jack is prepared to substitute Randall for him, then he's a threat to Ennis, or rather to Ennisandjack.

[manhattangirl]

I don't mean to be funny, but I could see Jack and Ennis on "Dr. Phil", sitting in those studios chair, and Dr. Phil railing with a pointed finger, yelling at Ennis "You are in denial my friend". 

Women held no emotional link for Ennis, with his mother dead, and his sister that leave him to marry,  where does he go?  We know how important having a father figure is to a girl when she grows, we must also understand with little boys who need a mother in their lives.  I may be way off base on this one, but do any of you think this is what's wrong with Ennis.

 Let me be clear, I not saying because he loved Jack he lack a mother figure, no, what I want to know is he total lack of connecting to woman at all could because he lost his mother so young?   

[welshwitch]

I think Ennis knows very little about women, clearly his father was the strong influence on him - he remembers his mother as singing to him only when he was a child. It sounds as if he was merely a responsibility to his sister, and he's evidently worked, and works, in a male environment. IMO Jack's the first person to show him that men can be gentle and caring; Ennis has to try to transfer this knowledge to his relationship with Alma, which I don't think he succeeds in doing. By the time he meets Cassie, he's too emotionally closed-up even to try.

If he knew about Randall, that would show him that Jack can find other men who are caring and want to be involved with him. Maybe the knowledge that the only person who's ever really cared for him and for whom he cares might be lost tohim would force him to change, but I'm not convinced. Wouldn't he just revert to his mantra "If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it." ?

[tpe]

It would seem from Ennis's threat to Jack during that last meeting that Ennis didn't even what to know anything about Jack's less serious liasons.  In fact, in context of what was said in that exchange, one would think that Ennis was telling Jack that his knowing the details of his little activities would get him killed if he (Ennis) would come to know them.    So it would appear that Ennis would also not even consider the thought of Jack fooling around with any other man, no matter how transitory the connection proves to be...

I guess it was more than just the case with Randall, no?  Of course, Ennis would have been livid if he came to know about this one in particular...

 

[welshwitch]

So he'd either erupt into violence or close up like a clam and let Jack go off with Randall and spend the rest of his life alone, without even the shirts and the knowledge they gave him? The latter really would be a tragic ending.

[JT]

Women held no emotional link for Ennis, with his mother dead, and his sister that leave him to marry,  where does he go?  We know how important having a father figure is to a girl when she grows, we must also understand with little boys who need a mother in their lives.  I may be way off base on this one, but do any of you think this is what's wrong with Ennis.

I don't think it was lack of a mother that Ennis became the way he was, but poor upbringing by his father.  Ennis was a complex character, but the way he was is very straight forward.  He is a qreer that's been taught to hate that aspect of himself in a very traumatic way. 

To me, Randall was a wake up call for both Jack and Ennis.

[welshwitch]

Yes, it's never really struck me before but Jack may of course been surprised by Randall's advances and suddenly seen other possibilities opening up before him. I discount the Mexican prostitute(s), since there's no sort of emotional engagement there - other than that maybe Jack really had had no other relationships other than that with Lureen and the one ewith Ennis. Maybe that look on his face as he sits next to Randall is a sudden realisation of how much time he's spent in the apparently futile wait for Ennis to change, and how many other possibilities he may have passed by in the past.

He is getting older - he's 39 or so at this point, isn't he? - disillusioned about his marriage, unsatisfied by Ennis ("I can't make it on a couple of high-altitude f**ks once a year" and  suddenly there's someone with whom he could have a more regular and maybe less fraught relationship, someone who isn't apparently in thrall to the past and his own fears. Does Jack suddenly see that his future doesn't have to consist of thoughts of what might have been ?

Is he deciding to give up on Ennis because he sees Ennis will never abandon the fears that control him? In other words, is Randall a wake-up call to Jack to remind him that time is passing and he needs to move on?

[welshwitch]

I suppose you could see Randall as a catalyst. Things can lie there inert till a catalyst helpr a reaction to occur; maybe Jack was ready for change and Randall was the catalyst who started the reaction going - of course what we don't know is where it ended up.

[tpe]

To me, Randall was a wake up call for both Jack and Ennis.

This is true.

When Jack makes a blank stare after Randall's proposal, was he not perhaps weighing things in the balance?

[tpe]

I suppose you could see Randall as a catalyst. Things can lie there inert till a catalyst helpr a reaction to occur; maybe Jack was ready for change and Randall was the catalyst who started the reaction going - of course what we don't know is where it ended up.

Yes, that is what I meant in my previous post: he is a catalyst.  He would inevitably bring things to a head.

[welshwitch]

It never occurred tome before, but is that blank stare an effort to cover up the emotional turmoil he's in because he's deciding to give up all hope of Ennis's ever changing, respond to Randall, and let his life change direction? Before I'd thought of him as merely taken aback by the way Randall approaches him so openly but now I see it as much more than that. Has he suddenly seen for the first time that he doesn't just need to sneak off to Mexico - there are other alternatives to waiting and waiting fo Ennis to change?

[aintfoolin]

I wish very much that Randall's long term intentions towards Jack were  explored more in the film. Those would be interesting to know. Jack at some point felt strongly enough about him to aquaint Randall's existence with  his parents. This leads me to beleive that Jack was thinkin serious on Randall and saw potential partnership material in him.
WW, this just may be it . Jack expression could mean that he saw other men, particularly Randall. as serious subs for Ennis. But I don't think he was quite ready to let Ennis go either.  20 years is a long time, he had to still want and love Ennis That bond was still there. I beleive that Jack grew to have feelings for Randall, not as much as he felt for Ennis, but I feel there was potential there.If Jack had met Randall about the same time that he met the rodeo clown, things may have turned out ALOT differently!
 I agree that he could be a major catylist to the relationship, in form of a formidable rival for  Ennis .and then throw in Jack's vulnerable circumstances. Randall was there, he wanted Jack , took a chance of gently approaching him as  soon as he got the chance. LaShawn only a few feet away. And where is Ennis? Still in Riverton,WY. holding his short lease . Jack derserved a whole life  with somene he cared about and I think he seriously considered it with this "other" quiet cowboy named Randall.A wake up call? Yes indeed.   My 2 cents.

[manhattangirl]

The potential for this ss to be a full novel is mind blowing, talk about a character study, anyway I getting off track.


"all those things I don't know"  Oh yeah, Ennis was very aware of Jack, his nature, his needs.  Even with the threat of Ennis killing Jack if ever found about those things, didn't and wouldn't stop Jack.  Randall was there, and wanted Jack.  Even if Ennis didn't know him by name, there was a threat out there.  Like when Ennis smelled the blood of the dead sheep in the air, he smelled that threat of Randall.  Now what he would do about it?  Desperate he wrote Jack to confirm November, too little too late. 

   

[tpe]

It never occurred tome before, but is that blank stare an effort to cover up the emotional turmoil he's in because he's deciding to give up all hope of Ennis's ever changing, respond to Randall, and let his life change direction? Before I'd thought of him as merely taken aback by the way Randall approaches him so openly but now I see it as much more than that. Has he suddenly seen for the first time that he doesn't just need to sneak off to Mexico - there are other alternatives to waiting and waiting fo Ennis to change?

Yes, I thought this signalled the first serious occurence in Jack's mind of a viable alternative.  Contemplating this possibility must have troubled him deeply, as he did not respond in any way to Randall's proposal...

 

[tpe]

I wish very much that Randall's long term intentions towards Jack were  explored more in the film. Those would be interesting to know. Jack at some point felt strongly enough about him to aquaint Randall's existence with  his parents. This leads me to beleive that Jack was thinkin serious on Randall and saw potential partnership material in him.

In a sense we are lucky that they didn't.  If they did, we would not be rewarded by this rich vein of conjecture that keeps the many discussions about Randall alive.

 

I agree that he could be a major catylist to the relationship, in form of a formidable rival for  Ennis .and then throw in Jack's vulnerable circumstances. Randall was there, he wanted Jack , took a chance of gently approaching him as  soon as he got the chance. LaShawn only a few feet away. And where is Ennis? Still in Riverton,WY. holding his short lease . Jack derserved a whole life  with somene he cared about and I think he seriously considered it with this "other" quiet cowboy named Randall.A wake up call? Yes indeed.   My 2 cents.

Randall was indeed a harbinger of change even to this almost 20-year old relationship.  The love of Ennis and Jack did not exist in a vacuum.  It was always subject to challenges and doubts.  Randall was such a challenge.

[tpe]

The potential for this ss to be a full novel is mind blowing, talk about a character study, anyway I getting off track.


"all those things I don't know"  Oh yeah, Ennis was very aware of Jack, his nature, his needs.  Even with the threat of Ennis killing Jack if ever found about those things, didn't and wouldn't stop Jack.  Randall was there, and wanted Jack.  Even if Ennis didn't know him by name, there was a threat out there.  Like when Ennis smelled the blood of the dead sheep in the air, he smelled that threat of Randall.  Now what he would do about it?  Desperate he wrote Jack to confirm November, too little too late. 

   

Yes.  even as much as Jack loved Ennis, I do think Jack had reached a point where he would no longer allow Ennis a stranglehold to his dream of a shared life.  Randall's gift to Jack was the opportunity of living this dream, and -- threat or no threat -- Jack was most likely willing to consider Randfall's proposal, because he was secure in the thought that no matter what he decided to do, his love for Ennis would never die. 

[aintfoolin]

Jack yelled at Ennis" All we got now is Brokeback mountain, that's f-nkin all!) Ennis must realize that he has become an extension of the mountain, but that's where it all began for him.but never ended.
A mountain cannot love, cannot feel, cannot touch or have any emotion. Jack had moved beyond the mountain itself Ennis had not. Jack needed something more tangible something, real with human  communication and reason.  And there was Randall, ready to step in and take over where Ennis left off.  Jack was torn between two lovers. One he deeply loved ,but could not accept  or admit himself as the same as Jack, the other willing to accept himself but would probably have to pay for a brain transplant in order to erase Ennis Del Mar from jack's head. Jack was in a bad spot.  stuck in the middle. Two rivals for his love and affection. Does'nt get any better than this....or worse? IMO.

[tpe]

Perhaps the main problem here was that Jack saw BBM as a promise, whereas Ennis initially thought it was an end.

Randall could have reminded both of them that there is a world of possibilities outside BBM, and that sometimes, it is the choices one does NOT make that closes one door as it opens others.

[welshwitch]

For Ennis the summer on the mountain was a one-shot thing - it was part of the past and each subsequent meeting only recreated a lesser version of it, because each time they met they had accreted more baggage, more of a non-shared past. Ennis saw no way to move on from this. Jack by contrast had been ready to move on for a long time- you can go on loving someone in a relatively hopeless was but the chances are that one day you'll wake up and say "Enough". Randall's advent may be the  thing that finally makes Jack say that.

[manhattangirl]

Jack was ready to step off that mountain, the question was how many times would he have stumbled doing it.  I could see Ennis everytime, breaking down falling to his knees, and Jack trying to comfort him.   Jack could never stand to see Ennis in pain.

[tpe]

Jack was ready to step off that mountain, the question was how many times would he have stumbled doing it.  I could see Ennis everytime, breaking down falling to his knees, and Jack trying to comfort him.   Jack could never stand to see Ennis in pain.

But I think his parting look in the last meeting shows a renewed resolve, as well as a weariness/sadness.  Perhaps his relationship with Randall gave him some of the determination to try to move on?

[lamusica]

I agree that Jack moved on to Randall, but I don't think it was to the exclusion of Ennis.  I think he finally realized his thing with Ennis was not going to go any farther than it was at this point, so he accepted that.  But he knew he needed more and he could get his needs met by Randall.  I think he would still have gone when Ennis called, but he wasn't going to be bound by Ennis and his refusal to commit to Jack as Jack wanted.  Even if Randall wanted something permanent with Jack, I think Jack was still Ennis's and would always have responded to Ennis when Ennis was willing. That's where the love part comes in.  Love doesn't quit just because one of the partners is cantankerous or won't do everything just as the other partner wants.  Love weathers those situations-- sometimes bitterly it's true.

[tpe]

I agree that Jack moved on to Randall, but I don't think it was to the exclusion of Ennis.  I think he finally realized his thing with Ennis was not going to go any farther than it was at this point, so he accepted that.  But he knew he needed more and he could get his needs met by Randall.  I think he would still have gone when Ennis called, but he wasn't going to be bound by Ennis and his refusal to commit to Jack as Jack wanted.  Even if Randall wanted something permanent with Jack, I think Jack was still Ennis's and would always have responded to Ennis when Ennis was willing. That's where the love part comes in.  Love doesn't quit just because one of the partners is cantankerous or won't do everything just as the other partner wants.  Love weathers those situations-- sometimes bitterly it's true.

In principle I agree that Jack'sa decision to move on with Randall is not a blanket exclusion of Ennis.  But I wonder how the long term dynamic between the relationships is going to play out.  It may end up with Randall losing adn Jack coming back to Ennis, or it could be the other way around.  Either way, I find it difficult to think that a stable balance between the relationships could be met in the long term  - something has got to give.

[lamusica]

I often wonder what Randall's history is where other men are concerned, I mean.  Perhaps he has a love with whom he could never be, like Jack.  That adds another interesting possibility.

[welshwitch]

It certainly looks as if he married LaShawn for camouflage - maybe he too went off on "fishing trips" - what an interesting speculation that he might have had a similar situation with someone similar to that of Jack with Ennis.

[tpe]

Jack must have felt that Randall was quite "different".  Was Jack used to being propositioned?  Randall's boldness must have intrigued him.  And the choice of LaShawn as a wife for appearance's sake was certainly perfect. 

Yes, Randall's history (as far as relationships with other men are concerned) would probably have been interesting had some more light had been thrown upon it.  It would make Jack's choice to plan a move with him more understandable.  But whatever his history, his appearance in Jack's life was bound to herald changes, simply because he offered Jack the luxury of possibilities on which to dream.

[FlwrChild]

But we are making some assumptions here as well. We certainly know he had a relationship of some kind with Randall. And we know what he told his father. But he also told him that he would be bringing Ennis up there some day and that wasn't based on any agreement he and Ennis had made. Maybe Randall was perfectly happy with the fishing trip type of arrangement and offered Jack nothing more than Ennis? Proximity would be an advantage there but it wouldn't necessarily afford Jack the opportunity to have the kind of life he really wanted.

What's even more relevant here is probably what Ennis thought Randall was willing to offer Jack. And of course, how the knowledge of Jack being involved in a more personal relationship with a man (as opposed to the Mexico type of activity) would effect his feelings and perceptions.