Author Topic: Time frame of Jack's death from last meeting and Ennis finding out?  (Read 21597 times)

Offline tpe

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masetane, I rhink we can all agree about what you said: that it became increasingly difficult for Ennis to find work.  Hence, I believe that the pressure to have fewer meetings with Jack came from Ennis.


Offline welshwitch

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Jack was in an apparently stable or expanding business whereas Ennis was in one that was contracting by the eighties. I should think as he was no longer a young man he was likely to stay longer in the jobs he got as there were fewer to be picked up and dropped casually.

But I agree about the effect of passing time - certainly that often makes you long for stability, and they are both approaching forty. The problem is that Jack wants stability with Ennis and Ennis doesn't reciprocate.That's why i think he doesn;t feel he can go on with th=even the two or three meetings a year they've had. however, after that confrontation with Jack and the fury Jack shows over the canceled August meeting, I think Ennis is going to make certain he can see Jack in November and that's why he sends the card, to show that though he couldn't manage August he's prepared to be there in November. Which is why I think the card is sent after the non-event of August - say in Sept or early Oct - and that Jack died in the summer some time after the May meeting.

Offline edgar

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Being devil's advocate here, Edgar, as I agree with you, but I suppose the couple of high-altitude encounters could all take place during one meeting, or two....

There are two linguistic units here. Jack bitterly characterizes their meetings as "a couple of high-altitude [encounters]." We don't need to count the number of "encounters" they had each meeting; Jack is just characterizing each "fishing trip" as "a couple of high-altitude [encounters]." (Due to his bitterness, I suspect he's under-counting; "a couple" does not equal two here.)

These meetings happen--or Ennis is wanting to cut them down to--"once or twice a year."

So, we could translate Jack's angry comment "I can't make it on meetings that happen only once or twice a year."

Or mathematically,

x (:f)), where 1<x<3, is true and  the variable  :f) represents an indeterminate number of encounters taking place over several days;  :f) is sometimes charcacterized by the integer 2
 &*&

Oops! I made a correction April 27 pm.
« Last Edit: Apr 27, 2007, 05:10 PM by edgar »

Offline tpe

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There are two linguistic units here. Jack bitterly characterizes their meetings as "a couple of high-altitude [encounters]." We don't need to count the number of "encounters" they had each meeting; Jack is just characterizing each "fishing trip" as "a couple of high-altitude [encounters]." (Due to his bitterness, I suspect he's under-counting; "a couple" does not equal two here.)

These meetings happen--or Ennis is wanting to cut them down to--"once or twice a year."

So, we could translate Jack's angry comment "I can't make it on meetings that happen only once or twice a year."

Or mathematically,

x (:f)), where the variable x<1<3, and  the variable  :f) represents an indeterminate number of encounters taking place over several days;  :f) is sometimes charcacterized by the integer 2
 &*&



Interesting way of putting it, edgar!  :)


Offline welshwitch

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Yes, of course, just what I was about to say, Edgar.





(Who is this guy? Who brought him? Does he think we understand this stuff?)

Offline Tony

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   Well, there was a warning note in red, to consider starting a new topic, since this is an old thread, but that just confuses me.  Anyway, the timeline subject is interesting, and I was hoping maybe more information could be developed.  My apologies if the interest has died down.  What exactly are the different theories?

Offline chameau

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It is apparently one year if not more, see this topic:

http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=968.0
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

Offline Tony

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   Well, the different theories were already there, on the previous posts, and now am more confused than ever.  Reading through them, it seemed to me the best timeline was:  May, the last meeting, and then Jack made his move for Randall, died somewhere between July and September, and Ennis gets the "deceased" postcard in October.  Yet there's apparently trouble in timelines in the screenplay, which makes for confusion.
  Also, I don't have the SS at hand, as am in the process of packing up for moving to a new apartment, so it came as a surprise to me, from another thread, that the prologue and maybe the epilogue, had Ennis much older as he began his dreams of Jack.  And am really amazed that I missed this completely.  Is it true?  All of a sudden, am feeling like I don't have a solid grounding in several major areas of the SS and film.  Which is shaking me up. It's even possible I blanked out the older Ennis reference as it was too hurtful.
  I guess the interest that was revving up in another thread (and off-topic) has now died down, now that the right thread is up and running.  Figures.
Just when I want to know, whoops, the subject is covered and everybody is off to something else.  Best thing to do might be to just keep studying the previous posts.

   I just saw the warning light of a post and chameau is saying it might have been 1 year, or more.  Thanks for the help there, but that seems an awfully long time.

babytammy7

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Tony, did you read Thomas post in the other thread? I think that maybe he was right. I have the script and I checked what Thomas was saying and it makes sense. I quote the post for you.

Quote
According to the screenplay, we have the established dates for the final scenes:

I.  The final meeting of Ennis and Jack occurred in 1981.

II.  The phone calll between Ennis and Lureen, and Ennis' visit to Jack's parents occurred in 1982.

III.  The visit of Alma Jr. to Ennis' trailer to announce her wedding occurred in 1984.


From the above, we can make the following logical deductions.

A.  THE LAST MEETING OF ENNIS AND JACK MUST HAVE OCCURRED DURING THE FALL OF 1981.  Snow was mentioned in this last meeting, so the time could have beeen either SPRING or FALL.  But Ennis was saying that they would meet next November, which could not have been November of 1981 (see below), so the last meeting was in FALL OF 1981.

B.  During the last meeting in 1981, Jack said that he was visiting his parents (PRESUMABLY IN FALL OF 1981).  But from Ennis' visit to Jack's parents, we know that Jack ALSO VISITED his parents in SPRING OF 1982 (as mentioned by Jack's father).  This, together with the obvious fall setting of Ennis' visit to Jack's parents, establishes Ennis' visit to FALL of 1982.  THEREFORE, JACK MUST HAVE DIED BETWEEN SPRING AND FALL OF 1982.

C.  Alma Jr.'s wedding was in 1984.  Since the wedding was on June 5 of that year, the visit to Ennis' trailer MUST HAVE BEEN SPRING OF 1984.

Liam56 and I were shocked to reach the following conclusions:


1.  In the last meeting, Ennis was actually proposing to Jack that IT WOULD BE CLOSE TO ONE YEAR BEFORE THEY COULD MEET AGAIN!!!!!  No wonder Jack was so angry with Ennis!!!!!!!!!  I had originally thought that the last meeting occured during spring and they would meet the following November OF THE SAME YEAR.  The screenplay obviously SHOOTS THIS DOWN. 

2.  Between FALL of 1981 and SPRING of 1982, Jack must have decided to divorce Lureen and he probably got sufficiently  involved with the Texas ranch neighbor to suggest the possibility of the Texas rancher moving to Wyoming with him.   JACK MUST HAVE DIED EARLY SUMMER OF 1982.

3.  Alma Jr.'s visit to Ennis' trailer occurred more than one year after Ennis' visit to Jack's parents.  I had originally thought that the time between the two scenes was much shorter.  It is MOVING to realize that close to 2 years after Jack's death, Ennis WAS STILL VERY MUCH IN MOURNING FOR JACK.  Presumably, Ennis would be in mourning for the rest of his life!


It is just the contrary of what you just wrote....but what do you think? I was so surprised that first time I read this more than a year ago, because like you I thought that Ennis and Jack last meeting was spring, so Ennis wanted them to meet again November of that same year....but NOT!! WOW!!  (t) (t) (t) No wonder Jack was so mad....and desperate..... :-\\ :-\\ :-\\

Offline tpe

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Tony, if I recall the beginning correctly, there is no explicit date given.  The assumption is that this happened years after Jack had died, and certainly after Jr. was married.

As for the timeline of the last scenes, I am willing to concede that the screenplay was probably sloppy in this, although the movie certainly does a good job not referencing the dates explicitly.  But the fact that they specified the dates in a few versions of the screenplay lead me to think that they were thinking carefully about the probable timeline, even if they made sure that the actual scenes did not explicitly depend on a rigid one.  Any probable ambiguity in the time of the Last Confrontation, for example, doesn't really matter in the long run -- as far as the overall flow of subsequent events are concerned.


Offline tpe

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Tony, did you read Thomas post in the other thread? I think that maybe he was right. I have the script and I checked what Thomas was saying and it makes sense. I quote the post for you.


It is just the contrary of what you just wrote....but what do you think? I was so surprised that first time I read this more than a year ago, because like you I thought that Ennis and Jack last meeting was spring, so Ennis wanted them to meet again November of that same year....but NOT!! WOW!!  (t) (t) (t) No wonder Jack was so mad....and desperate..... :-\\ :-\\ :-\\

Hello Tammy.  Yes, I think that if we take the dates in the screenplay at face value, then the conclusions I made should be correct.  But I am aware that these conclusions fly at the face of what most people perceived to be the timeline as they watched the last scenes.  It is really interesting.  I myself admit that when I first watched BBM, I assumed that the Last Confrontation happened in the Spring and they were supposed to meet November of the same year.  Perhaps this was what the director wanted the viewer to think in the end, if they just watched the movie and did not look at the dates in the screenplay.

« Last Edit: Jan 08, 2009, 06:25 PM by tpe »

Offline Tony

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As for the timeline of the last scenes, I am willing to concede that the screenplay was probably sloppy in this, although the movie certainly does a good job not referencing the dates explicitly.  But the fact that they specified the dates in a few versions of the screenplay lead me to think that they were thinking carefully about the probable timeline, even if they made sure that the actual scenes did not explicitly depend on a rigid one.  
    Thomas, thanks for adding some wiggle-room.  I really am uncomfortable with the screenplay dates, as they don't reflect what I thought I saw in the film. And aren't there 3 screenplays anyway? The original, the director's interpretation, and then a final one which reflects what's actually there in the film, including minor dialogue changes by actors?  Something has to give, as a film is made, and here, they may have seen rigid dates as not compatible with what was evolving as they followed some less prolonged of a schedule of events.
  And I really think there's room for the time frame being within 6 months.
- AP has the last meet-up in May. Spring is officially still the season until mid-June. So, Jack's father referring to Jack changing his move-in plans from Ennis Del Mar to the foreman "last Spring" could easily mean Jack lost no time, frustrated as he was, in making his move, right away.  This makes more sense to me than his waiting a year. "Last Spring", then, referring to Spring of that same year.  Ennis was in Lightning Flat in November.
-Jack had complained of the cold, bitterly (which led to the reference to Mexico).  So, he had expected the next meeting that summer, in August, and Ennis tells him, no, it has to be November (in the cold weather Jack hated).  A gap of 6 months, which would be long enough to have provoked Jack further.  To suppose Ennis was suggesting a gap of well over a year is incompatible, IMO, with Jack's complaints of 1-2 meetings a year not being enough.  If Ennis was dropping it even lower, I would think he would have SAID that's way over a year away, and he didn't.  He said a lot, but not that.
-the returned postcard would seem to be in late October, and there is nothing in the film suggesting 1 and 1/2 years later. Meaning Jack died that same summer, months after the last trip.
-the scene of Ennis' truck racing South at night did show greenery incompatible with his going fairly quickly to Lightning Flat in November, but artistic license would easily cover that detail.  The sense of urgency in that scene strongly suggests an early reaction, rather than something delayed, and we should remember, Ennis had free time off that November.

   It just seems to me the flow of what I saw on the screen was in an orderly progression and fairly rapid.  May, last meeting.  May/June, Jack makes his move.  That summer, Jack dies. Late October, Ennis gets the postcard.  November, he's in Lightning Flat.  Dates in the screenplay just became incompatible with where the intensity of events required months, not something dawdling out over a year and a half.  I believe the director saw that and followed his instincts.  That is why it is the director who makes the final call.  And that tender sense of Ang Lee, I think, saw a longer time-line as altering the intensity of the impact on Ennis, and threw the dates out.  That's how you win Oscars. Not being imprisoned by a script.  But this is just what I felt from the flow of scenes and the nature of the characters, and someone else will have a different take very easily.
   
« Last Edit: Jan 11, 2009, 03:03 PM by Tony »

Offline tpe

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What you say makes sense, Tony.  As I indicated, this was pretty much the way I understood the timeline prior to looking at the dates in the screenplay.  And you are right in that there are multiple versions of the screenplay, although I do not recall at this time if the dates in the last scene changed very much.  My impression/memory is that in at least one of the earlier versions, it was pretty much the same as with the published screenplay.

Still, I must admit that when I first saw BBM, I had not thought that the time between the visit to LF and the trailer scene with Jr. was not as long as 2 years, although I realized later that the comment by Jr. about Troy being 2 years ago in the movie was intended to serve as a temporal signpost that 2 years had indeed elapsed since they had last spoken about anything.  I not this because it might very well be that the screenplay writers had intended to indicate a greater time between the last confrontation and the proposed November meeting.  I think their toying around with the dates indicates some thoughtful purpose which has yet eluded me.