Topic: Sobering Moments

[welshwitch]

I've wondered if he had some idea about Jack, and Ennis's arrival confirms what he hadn't admitted to himself before - that he had a son who was gay. He seems to be in the grip of some sort of repressed rage all the time Ennis is there.

[aintfoolin]

 This totally true about OMT WW.! He's probably been carrying this *repressed rage* as you say, around  for a long time. ever since he suspected his son, even as a boy. Perhaps, this is the reason why Jack could never please him.
Jack , I suppose  never knew his father suspected him of being gay as a boy, but This is sometimes intuitive in parents. Jack kept trying to please his father first just as a son. The old man saw a gay son. It indeed must have been a sobering moment for him. I agree, Ennis's arrival was a confrimation of his son's homosexuality. A part of Jack which OMT can never accept, thus Jack's inability to ever please him all those years. MO.

Another sobering moment is for Alma. When Ennis returned home from the motel with Jack she looked like she had been up all night. What she had seen must have stayed with her. Then here comes Ennis, packing to spend days more with Jack. She goes to the window, looks out and see that Jack is still there .and Ennis was leaving with him again.  She immediatley starts trying to get Ennis to stay with her but Ennis did'nt budge. He had answers for all her *worries* and she knew why. .  He's from Texas", "That boss owes me time off"   etc...  To watch Ennis drive off with Jack was probably a double confirmation that her husband 's heart belonged to Jack  long before her ,and it was the *fishing buddy* who sent the postcard "genral delivery"  who was the one her husband really wanted.  "Jack Nasty" had her Ennis. Another  very sobering moment for her I think.

[tpe]

I've wondered if he had some idea about Jack, and Ennis's arrival confirms what he hadn't admitted to himself before - that he had a son who was gay. He seems to be in the grip of some sort of repressed rage all the time Ennis is there.

It did seem like repressed rage to me -- his glaring eyes, in particular.  It must have been a sobering moment for him too.

[tpe]

This totally true about OMT WW.! He's probably been carrying this *repressed rage* as you say, around  for a long time. ever since he suspected his son, even as a boy. Perhaps, this is the reason why Jack could never please him.
Jack , I suppose  never knew his father suspected him of being gay as a boy, but This is sometimes intuitive in parents. Jack kept trying to please his father first just as a son. The old man saw a gay son. It indeed must have been a sobering moment for him. I agree, Ennis's arrival was a confrimation of his son's homosexuality. A part of Jack which OMT can never accept, thus Jack's inability to ever please him all those years. MO.

Interesting thought, aintfoolin.  I also harbor the thought of John Twist suspecting somehow that his son was different, and a disappointment, perhaps.  I think what made the meeting with Ennis significant was that he suspected all along that this was the person his son honored and loved -- perhaps more than his father.

Another sobering moment is for Alma. When Ennis returned home from the motel with Jack she looked like she had been up all night. What she had seen must have stayed with her. Then here comes Ennis, packing to spend days more with Jack. She goes to the window, looks out and see that Jack is still there .and Ennis was leaving with him again.  She immediatley starts trying to get Ennis to stay with her but Ennis did'nt budge. He had answers for all her *worries* and she knew why. .  He's from Texas", "That boss owes me time off"   etc...  To watch Ennis drive off with Jack was probably a double confirmation that her husband 's heart belonged to Jack  long before her ,and it was the *fishing buddy* who sent the postcard "genral delivery"  who was the one her husband really wanted.  "Jack Nasty" had her Ennis. Another  very sobering moment for her I think.

Agreed.  She asked exploratory questions and got no comfort.  Everything was probably confirmed in her mind in that scene.

[welshwitch]

And then she was left on her own for several days to think over the significance of what she'd seen - the reunion kiss, the evident tension between Jack, Ennis and herself when Jack was introduced to her, Jack's staying outside the next morning  when the natural thing would have been to come in, Ennis's incredible haste to get away, missing work, which he almost never did. This must have shown her a totally different side of her husband. I wonder if she ever felt the same about him after this?

[tpe]

And then she was left on her own for several days to think over the significance of what she'd seen - the reunion kiss, the evident tension between Jack, Ennis and herself when Jack was introduced to her, Jack's staying outside the next morning  when the natural thing would have been to come in, Ennis's incredible haste to get away, missing work, which he almost never did. This must have shown her a totally different side of her husband. I wonder if she ever felt the same about him after this?

Your comment here reminds me of Alma's first "sobering moment" about Ennis: the July 4 scene.

She was absolutely surprised at Ennis's anger.  It probably frightened her -- having never really seen this side of her husband.  It spoke of pent-up anger.  What was the souce of all this anger?   She must have wondered...

Did she make a connection later between this and the reunion?

[aintfoolin]

And then she was left on her own for several days to think over the significance of what she'd seen - the reunion kiss, the evident tension between Jack, Ennis and herself when Jack was introduced to her, Jack's staying outside the next morning  when the natural thing would have been to come in, Ennis's incredible haste to get away, missing work, which he almost never did. This must have shown her a totally different side of her husband. I wonder if she ever felt the same about him after this?

I doubt it. . She had to realize that her whol life was a farce, totally blindsided by it. She  also had ywo girls to think about. I feel after this she became much more open to Monroe's interest in her.                 

[aintfoolin]

 I see another sobering moment when Aguirre informs Jack that he saw them doing * the business* on Brokeback. This had to be very sobering for Jack, judging from his reaction to this news. Perhaps he feared Aguirre would tell others what he saw. Maybe this is why he never told Ennis about this. Probably thought this would definitly spook the hell out of Ennis huh?

[chameau]

I see another sobering moment when Aguirre informs Jack that he saw them doing * the business* on Brokeback. This had to be very sobering for Jack, judging from his reaction to this news. Perhaps he feared Aguirre would tell others what he saw. Maybe this is why he never told Ennis about this. Probably thought this would definitly spook the hell out of Ennis huh?

In the movie he didn't told Ennis but he told him in the short story, one of the rare excerpt from the short story that wasn't kept in the screenplay.

[tpe]

I doubt it. . She had to realize that her whol life was a farce, totally blindsided by it. She  also had ywo girls to think about. I feel after this she became much more open to Monroe's interest in her.                 

I agree.  I think this is what hit her when she saw them kiss -- the realization that she had been living a lie.

And yes, I think this is what made her vulnerable to Monroe's interest in her.    She wanted a way out, deep inside of her, even if she tried to keep appearances for may years after this sobering moment.

[aintfoolin]

Your comment here reminds me of Alma's first "sobering moment" about Ennis: the July 4 scene.

She was absolutely surprised at Ennis's anger.  It probably frightened her -- having never really seen this side of her husband.  It spoke of pent-up anger.  What was the souce of all this anger?   She must have wondered...

Did she make a connection later between this and the reunion?

I feel it was the bikers,  who unbeknownst to them were questioning Ennis's manhood with the vulgar comments and suggestions . Alma appeared shocked and afraid , and perhaps she put two and two together later on with what they were saying concerning  ennis's  manhood.  but what they were saying got too  personal to Ennis besides these ignoramuses were being downright disrespectful to him and his family and others.

To Ennis these could be the * tire iron* people if they Knew of him a Jack. He was defending his family as well as he and Jack's relationship. Alma suggests that  they just move  somewhere else, but they kept it up, especially after Ennis made himself a target when he asked them to stop. An under-lying thought of he and Jack being harmed  by this *type* may account for his ...ahem , ass-kickin seminar.

[aintfoolin]

Since my first viewing, I have thought that Ennis would someday come back to visit.  There is something in Mrs. Twist's face when she tells him to come back that is compelling.  She's not just mouthing empty words, but has a deeper meaning.  I think Ennis would have picked up on that and would have accommodated her by returning someday.  Again, the look is subtle -- not a pleading look, but just a glance of itensity that raises her words to the level of need and truth.  Mom's face is marvelous throughout this whole scene.  She says more with just a stoic set to her face than words could ever express. She is used to keeping her feelings inside.  God knows, she wouldn't have been welcome to share them with the old man.  So, when Ennis comes, she has a lot to tell him, but, since she can't speak freely, she has to communicate with him through nonverbals, which she does SOOOOOOO very well. The offer of cherry cake is, I believe, a ploy to keep ENnis there longer.  She revels in his presence -- someone who knew and loved Jack for what he was. She had the paper bag ready when he came downstairs, knowing full well he would be bringing the shirts with him.  This made her so happy.  Oh, I have to quit this post -- can't type through the tears.

I love this post. The expression in Mrs. Twist's face in this scene is perfection . Without words she expressed  exactly what she wanted to say to Ennis.

 Do you think that her saying " I kept his room the way it when he was a boy". "A boy " meaning to her 19 years old son?  The time period when Jack first brought the shirts home after, The summer of Brokeback?  A clue for Ennis to please go up to Jack's room and look around . " I think he would appreciate that" = *Jack wants you to find something up there*prompting and nudging Ennis's shoulder to go up. Ennis got it but he had no idea what he would find hanging in Jack's closet.
 
When he came down with the shirts, Ennis knew she knew more about her son's relationship with him and they acknowleged the facts of this commom knowledge to each other.  Ennis loves Jack and of course Jack loved  Ennis and left the shirts in order  to leave no doubts about it in Ennis's mind about it. Ennis left without the ashes, but he had a most precious gift of love. a sobering  Mission accomplished. IMHO

[manhattangirl]

You  get that sense, that feeling at the very beginning when Mrs. Twist steps out the house to meet Ennis.   She knew who he was, and what he was to Jack, and met him, not waiting for him to come to the door, or waiting for the knock, but meets him as someone important that comes to visit you at your home.

Even when Old Man Twist makes mentioned of Randall, she knew better, and told Ennis he was welcome to go to Jack's room.  There were two emotions at work in this one scene, deep love and bitter disappointment, a battle for the memory of Jack between mother and father expressing distinctly how they felt about their son, to  someone both knew was his lover.     

Ennis got the sense of both people, this was Jack's world, something I don't think he ever really understood, or thought much about, not the way Jack understood him.   

Jack didn't come to manhood with a "Rich or Earl"  looming in the back of his mind, Jack grew up torn between the two people who raised him.   Caught between brutality and love, with Jack choosing love and seeking it, and wanting it and giving it all to Ennis.   When Ennis found the shirts he was just beginning to understand his long time lover,   for these shirts was from the first summer, not after the reunion, but from the very beginning, Jack loved him then, and loved him till his death.   And through it all Mrs. Twist knew and honored it. 

Ennis had to feel a sense of relief, that someone knew and took pity on him. 

[orangetruck]

You  get that sense, that feeling at the very beginning when Mrs. Twist steps out the house to meet Ennis.   She knew who he was, and what he was to Jack, and met him, not waiting for him to come to the door, or waiting for the knock, but meets him as someone important that comes to visit you at your home.

Even when Old Man Twist makes mentioned of Randall, she knew better, and told Ennis he was welcome to go to Jack's room.  There were two emotions at work in this one scene, deep love and bitter disappointment, a battle for the memory of Jack between mother and father expressing distinctly how they felt about their son, to  someone both knew was his lover.     

Ennis got the sense of both people, this was Jack's world, something I don't think he ever really understood, or thought much about, not the way Jack understood him.   

Jack didn't come to manhood with a "Rich or Earl"  looming in the back of his mind, Jack grew up torn between the two people who raised him.   Caught between brutality and love, with Jack choosing love and seeking it, and wanting it and giving it all to Ennis.   When Ennis found the shirts he was just beginning to understand his long time lover,   for these shirts was from the first summer, not after the reunion, but from the very beginning, Jack loved him then, and loved him till his death.   And through it all Mrs. Twist knew and honored it. 

Ennis had to feel a sense of relief, that someone knew and took pity on him. 

Very nicely put 

[aintfoolin]

Absolutly MG, This  is beautifully stated. " The battle for the memory of Jack" from both parents. Indeed it was a battle of influence from  both parents. This  is enlightening as I've never looked at it this way !
 
OMT Twist seems insistent on inflicting more pain on Ennis while Mrs. Twist provides comfort and understanding. Certainly Mom had the advantage here for she appealed to Ennis's sense of wanting to do right by Jack and knew about the shirts upstairs and exactly who they were for, what they meant.

Ennis did have a relieved look on his face, nodding in unspoken appreciation to her as he donned his hat and stepped out the door and she did the same.  Agreed readily to Mr. Twist's insistence that Jack's ashes were staying with them in the family plot but he knew he was'nt leaving empty-handed ,for in a simple  brown paper bag he held everything he needed to survve now. Thanks to Jack's loving early insight , a sense of victory over adversity was felt by the three of them in this sobering moment.  Even in death , Jack's love inspired all three with hope again in different ways. Fascinating.

[welshwitch]

Preceded by that awful moment when John Twist says of Jack's ashes, "We've got a family plot and he's going in it." Ennis knows then there's no hope of of doing as Jack wanted; half his ashes are in Texas and half will by buried " on the grieving plain" - but at least he has the shirts, the significance of which appears to be completely hidden from Jack's father.

[orangetruck]

For me another sobering moment is the fact of the shirts mentioned:

The ashes were in 2 different places in the country, not for Ennis. What Ennis does have is the Shirts in probably the most wicked familiar place known to him - the closet.
Obviously having the shirts states many emotions, but also I find it symbolizes something, other than love, Ennis can now grip. And that is the feeling that he, like the shirts now, had been dead inside. He may now understand the stoicism that he was made of having not loved the way he'd been taught not to. The beauty and pain of having found and lost Jack's (true) love was a token which now resides in his literal closet providing reflection of everything that makes him (a man) who he is to the second.
He once lived there, but now there's only room for the shirts. I know damn well on my emotional connection and response to the movie alone that it's very sobering for him to have to constantly !@#$ rent each day to the glowing, bursting, violently pulsating underlying messages to the contents of the closet. He now has the option to step aside and feel it.
Maybe with this, on some days, he follows the rare and specific string of having been entirely in this world alone but took for granted the 20 years he was not. Hard to swallow something alla sudden when it's already gone.
"I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then"
But then... he chose to put the shirts there.
And then, for redundancy, I think the lord had 2 options with Ennis at this point:
See that he makes use of the shirts or kill him.

[tpe]

Thanks everyone for the thought-provoking posts this weekend.


May I venture to suggest another sobering moment: for Alma Jr., i t was when Ennis discouraged her to live with him.

I think at this point, Alma Jr. realized that there will always be a part of his father that is off-limits to her.  I think this was part of the reason why she didn't see Ennis for a while after Jack died.  She recognized that there was something in her father that evwen she would never be a part of. 

[welshwitch]

That's part of starting to grow up, isn't it - to realise that your parents have a life that's not accessible to you. It seems likely that Bobby would have learned this too -as he grew up he must have been aware of the "fishing trips" and most kids would ahve asked what they entailed, where dad was going, whether they could come too....

[tpe]

That's part of starting to grow up, isn't it - to realise that your parents have a life that's not accessible to you. It seems likely that Bobby would have learned this too -as he grew up he must have been aware of the "fishing trips" and most kids would ahve asked what they entailed, where dad was going, whether they could come too....

Yes.  It probably hit Alma Jr. that her dad was not always going to be there for her. It must have been difficult at first to contemplate.  But I think like most of us, she became reconciled to this.

[jackster]

A sobering moment for old man Twist (OMT)
OMT doesn’t say a thing about Jack’s ashes until Ennis comes down from Jack’s room. When Ennis reappears he’s got something of Jack’s in his hands, as far as OMT knows it may just be one of Jack’s shirts (mother Twist probably knows better). Is it at this moment, when he (OMT) realizes for sure that there was a deep, intimate relationship between these two men, that he decides to not let Jack’s ashes go? As if he’s sayin’ to Ennis “You may have had my son’s love and now you got his shirt, but goddamn you, I’m keepin’ his ashes you SOB”. Was this OMTs sobering moment when he understands for sure the real value of the relationship and this is the way, the only way left to him, to strike back at Ennis and even at Jack’s mother who probably wanted to see Jack’s last wish (his ashes on Brokeback) come true. Makes me feel kind of warm to know that Ennis took this step of exposing his relationship to this bastard and that by doing so proved to him the true value of Jack and Jack’s love in such a way that the old man wanted to react but really had no other options but this little, petty holding back of a dead man’s ashes.

[tpe]

A sobering moment for old man Twist (OMT)
OMT doesn’t say a thing about Jack’s ashes until Ennis comes down from Jack’s room. When Ennis reappears he’s got something of Jack’s in his hands, as far as OMT knows it may just be one of Jack’s shirts (mother Twist probably knows better). Is it at this moment, when he (OMT) realizes for sure that there was a deep, intimate relationship between these two men, that he decides to not let Jack’s ashes go? As if he’s sayin’ to Ennis “You may have had my son’s love and now you got his shirt, but goddamn you, I’m keepin’ his ashes you SOB”. Was this OMTs sobering moment when he understands for sure the real value of the relationship and this is the way, the only way left to him, to strike back at Ennis and even at Jack’s mother who probably wanted to see Jack’s last wish (his ashes on Brokeback) come true. Makes me feel kind of warm to know that Ennis took this step of exposing his relationship to this bastard and that by doing so proved to him the true value of Jack and Jack’s love in such a way that the old man wanted to react but really had no other options but this little, petty holding back of a dead man’s ashes.

Great point jackster.  I think that OMT somehow FELT that there was some significance in the clothes he brought doen from jack's room -- but he couldn't put his finger on it, and his wife was too quick to agree to Ennis's having it.  Perhaps at that point, OMT felt he had to say something to put Ennis in his place, thinking that his clear refusal would put a damper on whatever satisfaction Ennis may have gotten on getting the shirts, and reassuring OMT himself that he was still in control.

[welshwitch]

He also clearly sees, maybe for the first time, that his wife hgas a life ( interior life at least) which he doesn't control and is not the doormat he took her for.

[aintfoolin]

A sobering moment for old man Twist (OMT)
OMT doesn’t say a thing about Jack’s ashes until Ennis comes down from Jack’s room. When Ennis reappears he’s got something of Jack’s in his hands, as far as OMT knows it may just be one of Jack’s shirts (mother Twist probably knows better). Is it at this moment, when he (OMT) realizes for sure that there was a deep, intimate relationship between these two men, that he decides to not let Jack’s ashes go? As if he’s sayin’ to Ennis “You may have had my son’s love and now you got his shirt, but goddamn you, I’m keepin’ his ashes you SOB”. Was this OMTs sobering moment when he understands for sure the real value of the relationship and this is the way, the only way left to him, to strike back at Ennis and even at Jack’s mother who probably wanted to see Jack’s last wish (his ashes on Brokeback) come true. Makes me feel kind of warm to know that Ennis took this step of exposing his relationship to this bastard and that by doing so proved to him the true value of Jack and Jack’s love in such a way that the old man wanted to react but really had no other options but this little, petty holding back of a dead man’s ashes.

Yes Jackser I agree it was a petty thing to do, but if this is true, then he's a heartless old SOB, but what if while Ennis was upstairs, OMT questioned Mrs. Twist about what was going on. Something like "what the hell you sendin him up to Jack's room for? Maybe they did'nt remain silent during this time.  Of course this is only speculation on my part.

Perhaps when Ennis came down with the shirts, Mrs. Twist had informed the old man that Jack wanted his friend to have a keepsake of Jack's or something to that affect?  And what if OMT had tried to stop Ennis from taking the shirts or anything else out of the house? Then what/ A tussle?
I don't think Mr. Twist dared to experience THAT sobering moment. Just a thought. Thanks

[orangetruck]

Yes Jackser I agree it was a petty thing to do, but if this is true, then he's a heartless old SOB, but what if while Ennis was upstairs, OMT questioned Mrs. Twist about what was going on. Something like "what the hell you sendin him up to Jack's room for? Maybe they did'nt remain silent during this time.  Of course this is only speculation on my part.

Perhaps when Ennis came down with the shirts, Mrs. Twist had informed the old man that Jack wanted his friend to have a keepsake of Jack's or something to that affect?  And what if OMT had tried to stop Ennis from taking the shirts or anything else out of the house? Then what/ A tussle?
I don't think Mr. Twist dared to experience THAT sobering moment. Just a thought. Thanks

lol 

Hell, maybe the cherry cake OMT'd been eating had hidden sedatives in it, and he could only manage to sit like a lump at the table with an antagonizing constipated look on his face.

I sometimes feel an awkwardness with the age difference between Ennis and OMT there at the table, I think in comparison to the younger Ennis from that first Summer when he'd met Jack. What couldn't be neither avoided or dissolved at the Twists' table now was indeed the beauty that had surfaced those 20 years ago. There was a lot to be said from Ennis' frozenly expressive face at the table, and I wonder if part of what came to him was the idea that OMT's son was gone, was the same age, probably had sat adjacent him just like this. Maybe obvious, but I wonder if E was aware that he took Jack's place at the table briefly and also enscribed the reasons Jack had been the way he'd been, for the love that they both felt.
Ennis, by saying as little as he did, probably realized it was a useless effort to try and steer Jack's parents from the true feelings that connect(ed) him to Jack. Maybe he felt the redundancy taking place not only at the table but echoeing from the distances of his own life. This combined with his pulsating love (now lost) for Jack must have been a strikingly sobering moment for Ennis. Some honestly felt aftermath of vulnerability.
He may just as well have enscribed into the table with his pocket knife.

I wonder what, if any, feelings ripped through his guts when he envisioned the chance to come to the Twists' while Jack was still alive, to perhaps pick him up for fishing or to scope out decent spreads for the shackin' up.
 

[tpe]

Another sobering moment for Jack must have been his confrontation with Aguirre in the summer of 64.  IT was the equivalent of being outed, although there was no one else present.  This experience probably molded Jack into accepting who he was in the long run.   

For Ennis, and equivalent scene would have been the Thanksgiving confrontation with Alma -- but unlike Jack, it probably only made him hide deeper into his own shell.

[aintfoolin]

 I think just being there in their preasence had to have sort of a * spooky* feel. This place where Jack grew up and had spoken of so many times to Ennis. It had to affect Ennis tremendously. This is the place he and Jack were suppose to " whip into shape"  together he must have thought as he scoped out the place even before he went in. Then meeting Mrs. Twist , who seemed to have alot of Jack's qualities and virtues. Must have hit very close to home for Ennis.

I've too often wondered if Ennis ever thought what it may have been to visit LF while Jack was still alive. Especially now in light of Mrs. Twist's  and acceptance and treatment of him.

Has anyone noticed Mrs. Twist's wording when she said " you'll want a cup of coffee don't ya ? A piece of cherry cake? As if Jack has told her Ennis LIKES coffee and cake? Or am I wrong?

Tpe, yeah, these two instances had to make them think about who they really were also confirming that they were willing to fight for their honor when confronted by * outsiders*.

[orangetruck]

I think just being there in their preasence had to have sort of a * spooky* feel. This place where Jack grew up and had spoken of so many times to Ennis. It had to affect Ennis tremendously. This is the place he and Jack were suppose to " whip into shape"  together he must have thought as he scoped out the place even before he went in. Then meeting Mrs. Twist , who seemed to have alot of Jack's qualities and virtues. Must have hit very close to home for Ennis.

Yes. It's just enthralling to consider what constitutes for spooky here



Has anyone noticed Mrs. Twist's wording when she said " you'll want a cup of coffee don't ya ? A piece of cherry cake? As if Jack has told her Ennis LIKES coffee and cake? Or am I wrong?

Interesting. Just the other day I repeatedly played that line, but I was very much absorbing her expression and tone, specially at the end - her cryptic nod of the head and sincerity with "..of cherry cake." That was deep in its consciousness.

Thomas, I like the comparative outs. I agree, Ennis' version seemed to only add a scratch to his shell, sending his head back under its cover as his fists swung.

[tpe]

Thanks orangetruck.

As for aintfoolin's comment, I feel that the entire set of scenes in LF are spooky.  It was a somber and sobering moment for all three of them  -- especially because there is a fourth persona that is physically absent but who ties them all together: Jack.  You feel him in the romm, the toys, the clothes, the spooky handprint on the inside of the closet door frame.  And yes, you sense his presence in Mrs. Twist's offer of hospitality.  It is as if Jack prompts her from the shadows...

   

[jackster]

Thanks orangetruck.

. . . I feel that the entire set of scenes in LF are spooky. . . . It is as if Jack prompts her from the shadows...

Boy, how well said both of you orangetruck and thomas. I remember being so struck during my first viewing of the entire LF scene. The way Mrs. Twist beckons him in, into that WHITE house. Everything is white, like the whole thing is an apparition and Ennis is floating through it, this other world, Jack's old world. And then Ennis comes out the "other side" with this small piece of immortality, the shirts. Spooky is dead on.