Topic: Sobering Moments

[orangetruck]

Boy, how well said both of you orangetruck and thomas. I remember being so struck during my first viewing of the entire LF scene. The way Mrs. Twist beckons him in, into that WHITE house. Everything is white, like the whole thing is an apparition and Ennis is floating through it, this other world, Jack's old world. And then Ennis comes out the "other side" with this small piece of immortality, the shirts. Spooky is dead on.

Gorgeously painted rendition through word.
 

[welshwitch]

Isn't white the color of death in some cultures? And it associates with ghosts and shrouds. So the housein LF is like the afterlife, or a ghostly world - Ennis opens the door and moves back into reality but JT and his wife are left there with Jack's ashes.

[aintfoolin]

 Yes WW, It's almost akin to a private *wake* for them right there in the Twist kitchen. The white paint giving the place a *ghostly appearance. The cross contributes to the purity of this *wake* Jack's spirit is heavily felt throughout the scene, especially when Ennis goes up to Jack's room. Ennis finding the shirts is like finding Jack himself in the closet hiding, topping the whole thing off. Sobering moments indeed. Almost chilling.

[lamusica]

Sobering momenet for sure.  The symbolusm of the house being white, inside and out, is a nice touch.  In the ss, it is a very different kind of house and it's brown.  I wonder whose idea it was to make it white.  I always felt the white symbolized the sterility of Jack's upbringing -- no color, no life, little touch or love.
    I agree about feeling Jack is there throughout that whole sequence of scenes.  His essence is so present in many ways, including the little wooden horse he had whittled, the shirts intertwined, the room so bleak with such a withered view.  Surely Ennis felt that Jack was there with him!  Thus the tears and the "I love you" that many say they have heard when ENnis held the shirts to his face.

[orangetruck]

Sobering momenet for sure.  The symbolusm of the house being white, inside and out, is a nice touch.  In the ss, it is a very different kind of house and it's brown.  I wonder whose idea it was to make it white.  I always felt the white symbolized the sterility of Jack's upbringing -- no color, no life, little touch or love.
    I agree about feeling Jack is there throughout that whole sequence of scenes.  His essence is so present in many ways, including the little wooden horse he had whittled, the shirts intertwined, the room so bleak with such a withered view.  Surely Ennis felt that Jack was there with him!  Thus the tears and the "I love you" that many say they have heard when ENnis held the shirts to his face.

Oh so agreed.   

They are all pills hard to swallow.

[tpe]

There is a gothic flavor to the entire sequence of scenes in LF, which probably reinforces the sobering quality with respect to all the characters involved.  Especially in Jack's bedroom, you definitely get the feeling of Jack's disembodied presence.  In fact, it has been discussed that Ennis seems to have been beckoned into the closet.

[orangetruck]

There is a gothic flavor to the entire sequence of scenes in LF, which probably reinforces the sobering quality with respect to all the characters involved.  Especially in Jack's bedroom, you definitely get the feeling of Jack's disembodied presence.  In fact, it has been discussed that Ennis seems to have been beckoned into the closet.

Probably as well as he'd been beckoned out of it the 20 years before.

What an eerie homestead. 

[tpe]

Probably as well as he'd been beckoned out of it the 20 years before.

What an eerie homestead. 

At the heart of this entire sequence of scenes is of course one of Ennis's most sobering moments: the discovery of the shirts and the realization of just how much Jack loved him.

[welshwitch]

American Gothic - the painting, I mean - comes to my mind when I see the Twist home and Jack's father.

[aintfoolin]

 It also can be looked at as a contrast of both Dark sobering moments: Ennis's pain and sorrow vs Everthing light symbolized by the white paint everywhere : Jack's world, a world of enlightenment for Ennis.  This is a big step in the first place for Ennis to even show up there. Of all the people Jack must have encountered rodeoing, jobs, and Randall,  It was Ennis who showed up to claim Jack's ashes. This must've been very telling to both parents.  He did'nt know at the time of his decision to go, that Mrs. Twist knew that he was more than just a *fishing buddy*. This had to be a sobering moment for him when he was actually welcomed into her life by her in a loving acceptance of who he really was to her son. It is clearly seen when Ennis looks at her face as she prompts him to go upstairs.
 Ennis walked out of the darkness and into the light in this place, Jack's home ,by way of the shirts there.

 Another sobering moment to me is when Jack first comes face to face with Alma. He must of been a bundle of nervous curiosity, ( and obvious sexually, energetic anticipation., after that makeout with Ennis) but any way, She is Enni's wife,  made Ennis a father,This is the person who he has to vie with for Ennis. His  rival.  The person who stood in the way back in 1963 when Ennis walked a way from him, promised to her to marry. She changed the direction his relationship could have gone with Ennis. So this is Alma?

[manhattangirl]

 Another sobering moment to me is when Jack first comes face to face with Alma. He must of been a bundle of nervous curiosity, ( and obvious sexually, energetic anticipation., after that makeout with Ennis) but any way, She is Enni's wife,  made Ennis a father,This is the person who he has to vie with for Ennis. His  rival.  The person who stood in the way back in 1963 when Ennis walked a way from him, promised to her to marry. She changed the direction his relationship could have gone with Ennis. So this is Alma?

Jack's reaction to Ennis's kiss,  an unspoken cue for Jack to know nothings changed, he still belonged to Ennis, and Ennis made sure he got that message.  Jack could barely stand, or hold a conversation, he slump against the door sill, and but for a brief glance Ennis knew what he did to Jack.   

Alma sees her rival, helpless to stop it.  She watches what was her man walk out the door, and with "an nice to meet you ma'am" and the tip of his hat, her rival takes her man to his bed. 

When you watch that scene again look at Ennis, watch  how he looks at Jack, knowing he would get him alone, and finish what he started.  That sexual possessiveness rises up in him, and there was nothing to stop it.   Jack returns unleashed something in Ennis that lay dormant for four years.  And this is what clung Ennis to Jack.   He was the only one that could do this to him, and he wasn't going to give it up.  The sexual tension is thick enough to cut with a knife, but told in such a brief scene, you can feel it. 

[jackster]

The sexual tension is thick enough to cut with a knife, but told in such a brief scene, you can feel it. 

You bet manhattangirl! I love the brilliant way Annie described Jack’s fevered emotional state here in a way that it has to be so visibly apparent to Alma in this very sobering moment for her. Jack’s trembling with excitement over seeing Ennis . . .

His shaking hand grazed Ennis's hand, electrical current snapped between them. . . . . .

From the vibration of the floorboard on which they both stood Ennis could feel how hard Jack was shaking . . . .

"Please to meet you," said Jack, trembling like a run out horse.

Whew!! The years of pent-up emotion wanting to just explode out from him following this surprisingly passionate welcome by Ennis. What a great description and how marvelously translated into action on the big screen.

[LuvJackNasty]

I was just catching up on the posts here and the LF ones are beautiful and had me teary eyed. Wonderful posts everyone.

[aintfoolin]

 Yeah, they're both trying to keep it together. The description of the scene by the author stokes the imagination for what was to come later. (no pun intended) , but the mind has a way of going there. I'd love to have seen THAT sobering moment!
But Jack was holding up the wall and Ennis was grinning ear to ear. All they wanted to do is loose Alma, get somewhere alone, and do some  "drinkin  and  serious "talkin". Profound ,but definitly NOT somber.

[lamusica]

Closely following the reunion scene is the motel scene with some very sobering moments of its own.  I think when Jack presses Ennis to make some sort of arrangements so they could either live together or be together on a more regular basis, Ennis rebuffs Jack once again and explains that it "ain't gonna be that way" because he has responsibilities.  He made his life and now he has to live it.  Jack had all these hopes built up inside, and when Ennis greeted him so warmly, Jack was sure Ennis had had a change of heart and was finally ready to make some sort of life with Jack.  Then Ennis goes and breaks Jack's heart all over by refusing to budge.  That had to be a sobering moment.  All Jack's plans just hit the dust once again.

[manhattangirl]

Closely following the reunion scene is the motel scene with some very sobering moments of its own.  I think when Jack presses Ennis to make some sort of arrangements so they could either live together or be together on a more regular basis, Ennis rebuffs Jack once again and explains that it "ain't gonna be that way" because he has responsibilities.  He made his life and now he has to live it.  Jack had all these hopes built up inside, and when Ennis greeted him so warmly, Jack was sure Ennis had had a change of heart and was finally ready to make some sort of life with Jack.  Then Ennis goes and breaks Jack's heart all over by refusing to budge.  That had to be a sobering moment.  All Jack's plans just hit the dust once again.

And in that space of time the  two Ennis emerges, never fused together until the end of Jack's life.  The Ennis totally and forever in love with Jack, needing, wanting him, and having him.  Never letting him go, and not be able to live without him.

Then the Ennis that was able to keep him away, denying the lover what he wanted,  a life with him.  Excuse after excuse of whys and the howcomes of not having a life.  Scheduling their meetings.   Controlling his own need so well, and so masterfully that he couldn't see his other life, his "straight life" slowly fading away to almost a  "nonexistent" existence. 

Why this was sobering moment we are witness to a man splitting himself in two in order to survive.  Self protection from the very thing he wanted and couldn't fight.  Being able to succumb to it then walk away from it.     

[lamusica]

Beautifully stated, manhattangirl.  That was a very sad sobering moment indeed.

[tpe]

American Gothic - the painting, I mean - comes to my mind when I see the Twist home and Jack's father.

It was supposedly one of the inspirations, no?

[tpe]

  Another sobering moment to me is when Jack first comes face to face with Alma. He must of been a bundle of nervous curiosity, ( and obvious sexually, energetic anticipation., after that makeout with Ennis) but any way, She is Enni's wife,  made Ennis a father,This is the person who he has to vie with for Ennis. His  rival.  The person who stood in the way back in 1963 when Ennis walked a way from him, promised to her to marry. She changed the direction his relationship could have gone with Ennis. So this is Alma?

This was the only time both of them met, no?  It was sobering to both of them.  To Alma, it was certainly sobering also, on account of what she just witnessed.

It can be contrasted with the scene years later when Ennis talked with Lureen over the phone.  This was a sobering moment for the two, although it was softened by the fact that it was all carried out over the phone.  The meeting of Jack and Alma was much more brief and silent -- understandable, because their very presence constrained each other to leave so many things unsaid.

 

[tpe]

Closely following the reunion scene is the motel scene with some very sobering moments of its own.  I think when Jack presses Ennis to make some sort of arrangements so they could either live together or be together on a more regular basis, Ennis rebuffs Jack once again and explains that it "ain't gonna be that way" because he has responsibilities.  He made his life and now he has to live it.  Jack had all these hopes built up inside, and when Ennis greeted him so warmly, Jack was sure Ennis had had a change of heart and was finally ready to make some sort of life with Jack.  Then Ennis goes and breaks Jack's heart all over by refusing to budge.  That had to be a sobering moment.  All Jack's plans just hit the dust once again.

It was sobering, especially close to the end when the questionwas asked "What are we going to do now?" There really was no good answer at that point, and Ennis skirts the issue by pleading the demands of his family.  Jack seemed to be strangely non-reactive: as if he had steeled himself to ignore any response at that point.

[tpe]

Beautifully stated, manhattangirl.  That was a very sad sobering moment indeed.

I agree. It was beautifully stated.

[aintfoolin]

And in that space of time the  two Ennis emerges, never fused together until the end of Jack's life.  The Ennis totally and forever in love with Jack, needing, wanting him, and having him.  Never letting him go, and not be able to live without him.

Then the Ennis that was able to keep him away, denying the lover what he wanted,  a life with him.  Excuse after excuse of whys and the howcomes of not having a life.  Scheduling their meetings.   Controlling his own need so well, and so masterfully that he couldn't see his other life, his "straight life" slowly fading away to almost a  "nonexistent" existence. 

Why this was sobering moment we are witness to a man splitting himself in two in order to survive.  Self protection from the very thing he wanted and couldn't fight.  Being able to succumb to it then walk away from it.     

Ennis's was a tortured soul indeed. This "duel" going on inside him fear and shame vs longing for a love he cannot freely express , and knowing that neither part of him can win this. A lose/lose situation for him. Can't live with it, can't live without it.

Here's another sobering (literally) moment for Ennis. FNIT. When  Ennis awakes and finds his hand on Jack. A WTF, then a realization that he was being prompted to do the deed with Jack. and he was'nt taking no for an answer!   He knew they liked each other alot but this was totally out of the blue for him.

I imagine that Ennis went through many sobering moments in a short time leading up to the act itself. ( " he wants me to do something" )  He could have opted for something other  than what he decided to partake in. I wonder what it was that made him go " all the way"  this first time, as opposed to maybe ....ahem.. just a mutual ..hand job.? He may have been a little drunk still but THIS sobering moment brought him back to reality real fast!. An " opportunity"  he could'nt refuse.
It was also a sobering moment for Jack when Ennis did go as far as he did with this. Sometimes, I think that Jack really did'nt expect it to go this far though he may have wanted it to.  After all it was he that unbuckeled his own belt, instead of Ennis's, leaving it up to Ennis to take the next step himself. Ennis took it from there.
 Did'nt have to take it this far, but he did. An unexpected  dream come true?  Maybe so. MHO.

[orangetruck]

Ennis's was a tortured soul indeed. This "duel" going on inside him fear and shame vs longing for a love he cannot freely express , and knowing that neither part of him can win this. A lose/lose situation for him. Can't live with it, can't live without it.

Here's another sobering (literally) moment for Ennis. FNIT. When  Ennis awakes and finds his hand on Jack. A WTF, then a realization that he was being prompted to do the deed with Jack. and he was'nt taking no for an answer!   He knew they liked each other alot but this was totally out of the blue for him.

I imagine that Ennis went through many sobering moments in a short time leading up to the act itself. ( " he wants me to do something" )  He could have opted for something other  than what he decided to partake in. I wonder what it was that made him go " all the way"  this first time, as opposed to maybe ....ahem.. just a mutual ..hand job.? He may have been a little drunk still but THIS sobering moment brought him back to reality real fast!. An " opportunity"  he could'nt refuse.
It was also a sobering moment for Jack when Ennis did go as far as he did with this. Sometimes, I think that Jack really did'nt expect it to go this far though he may have wanted it to.  After all it was he that unbuckeled his own belt, instead of Ennis's, leaving it up to Ennis to take the next step himself. Ennis took it from there.
 Did'nt have to take it this far, but he did. An unexpected  dream come true?  Maybe so. MHO.

Interesting this comes up. I think what made him go 'all the way' was the idea that none of it was 'kosher' in Ennis' mind to begin with. Just like in Ennis' general expression and demeanor, there wasn't any room to be creative or passionate. It was easiest probably to simply fill in the blank so to speak, in and out. We notice this was done rough and quick. Taking time to be sensual or to actually explore Jack would have probably equated Ennis shutting down before guns fired. No, Ennis needed to be thrown into this one like he'd been thrown into everything else in his life.
Naturally, however, I would have loved to see other forms of intimate contact, even just insinuated (i.e. handjob, oral). But then I think I would have been overly distracted, or that Ennis' character would not have vibrated with the same poignant fragility (had he been more sexually open) throughout the film.
I find myself searching for excuses though, to be honest. There is also just something primitive and satisfying about the idea of those two, alone, out there in the mountains with so much nature, exploring and taking in each other by means of all senses, namely scent and taste.
Of course, they did have 20 years for this..
Sobering moment still being: Ennis smelled Jack during his insurmountable emotional response (to love) to Jack during SNIT; He could not, as hard as he tried, smell Jack in his upstairs closet during that second century of loving him.
It's that 1-shot business. 

[lamusica]

Sometimes less is more.  As wonderful as the FNIT and SNIT and Motel scenes were, they were minimal.  They showed just enough that we all knew what was going down, but no one was overwhelmed with too much of a good thing.  Again, that's Annie's style.  She doesn't use three paragraphs to explain what one word will take care of.  So, in the movie, the few intimate scenes we are priviledged to see carry so much weight.  After all, we've been discussing them now for a year and a half, and, I imagine, we will be discussing them well into the future.  Everytime we see the movie or read the ss or script, some other possibility rears its head.  That's because Annie allows us this freedom through her minimalist writing to which Ang stayed true throughout the whole movie.  My imagination, like most of your's, has filled in the blanks many times in many different ways, and who's to say who's right or wrong.

[manhattangirl]

I don't know if any of you would agree with me.  The aggressiveness of sex and the tempered pace of making love had to be learned by both, there wasn't a "Dr. Ruth" around to guide them.     

The FNIT was instinct coming from somewhere deep inside, and the satisfaction of the need.  How did Jack know to grasp Ennis's hand, how did Ennis know to take Jack, and give his virginity to him?  Why did Jack egg Ennis on saying " come on, come on".

Was not IMO a drunken rage Ennis had against Jack, but something simmering inside for each other the need to be closer to each other,  physically closer.

SNIT totally aware of that need, wanting each other again, with no rush, no aggression, but giving over and giving in to it.  Loving it, this thing.     

What do they do now?  What do they call it?  All they really knew it was nobody's business but theirs. 

[tpe]

Interesting this comes up. I think what made him go 'all the way' was the idea that none of it was 'kosher' in Ennis' mind to begin with. Just like in Ennis' general expression and demeanor, there wasn't any room to be creative or passionate. It was easiest probably to simply fill in the blank so to speak, in and out. We notice this was done rough and quick. Taking time to be sensual or to actually explore Jack would have probably equated Ennis shutting down before guns fired. No, Ennis needed to be thrown into this one like he'd been thrown into everything else in his life.
Naturally, however, I would have loved to see other forms of intimate contact, even just insinuated (i.e. handjob, oral). But then I think I would have been overly distracted, or that Ennis' character would not have vibrated with the same poignant fragility (had he been more sexually open) throughout the film.
I find myself searching for excuses though, to be honest. There is also just something primitive and satisfying about the idea of those two, alone, out there in the mountains with so much nature, exploring and taking in each other by means of all senses, namely scent and taste.
Of course, they did have 20 years for this..
Sobering moment still being: Ennis smelled Jack during his insurmountable emotional response (to love) to Jack during SNIT; He could not, as hard as he tried, smell Jack in his upstairs closet during that second century of loving him.
It's that 1-shot business. 

I like your contrasting these 2 scenes via that visceral connection made by the sense of smell.  Indeed, by recalling the earlier scene (SNIT), we are drawn to that overpowering realization that Jack is gone in the closet scene -- when Ennis tries to smell Jack (in vain!) via the shirt, and realizes that much of the power that was BBM has gone with his beloved.

[tpe]

I don't know if any of you would agree with me.  The aggressiveness of sex and the tempered pace of making love had to be learned by both, there wasn't a "Dr. Ruth" around to guide them.     

The FNIT was instinct coming from somewhere deep inside, and the satisfaction of the need.  How did Jack know to grasp Ennis's hand, how did Ennis know to take Jack, and give his virginity to him?  Why did Jack egg Ennis on saying " come on, come on".

Was not IMO a drunken rage Ennis had against Jack, but something simmering inside for each other the need to be closer to each other,  physically closer.

SNIT totally aware of that need, wanting each other again, with no rush, no aggression, but giving over and giving in to it.  Loving it, this thing.     

What do they do now?  What do they call it?  All they really knew it was nobody's business but theirs. 

Well, I think I agree.  They had to know each other's boundaries -- how far the other is willing to go.  This is so apparent in the FNIT, where they were almost wrestling with each other -- trying to see how far they can go without overstepping the bounds seemingly defined by the other, even as they realize that for each step, there was no turning back.

[tamlynn]

A sobering moment for me was when Ennis talked about love in the final scene with his daughter and gave in to going to her wedding.  cooperating at last.  making someone happy at last.  After a lifetime of pushing people away who loved him.  Could this be because he was abandoned and pushed away as a child?  Absence of love was a way of life for him.  So, it was a big deal for him to step up to the plate and come forward to Jr.  It was so un-Ennis.

[welshwitch]

Yes, and it was also unlike Ennis to give up work/money for any reason other than to see Jack - now here he is doing it for his daughter, and again out of love.

[tpe]

A sobering moment for me was when Ennis talked about love in the final scene with his daughter and gave in to going to her wedding.  cooperating at last.  making someone happy at last.  After a lifetime of pushing people away who loved him.  Could this be because he was abandoned and pushed away as a child?  Absence of love was a way of life for him.  So, it was a big deal for him to step up to the plate and come forward to Jr.  It was so un-Ennis.

Ennis certainly must have surprised himself!   I agree, Ennis finally seemed to acknowledge that love is not something to take passively, or even ignore in the face of other demands in life.  If there was anything that Jack's death achieved, perhaps it gave Ennis some insight into the nature of love as risk.