Topic: Jack and Ennis: Their Love

[welshwitch]

Two other things strike me about their not saying "I love you". It is in some ways a way-station in a relationship - once it's been said it's there and probably demands some action to follow. The other is that it's often used as a sort of bargaining counter, kind of emotional blackmail perhaps, by one of a pair while their relationship is both more straightforward and more complicated than that.

[orangetruck]

Two other things strike me about their not saying "I love you". It is in some ways a way-station in a relationship - once it's been said it's there and probably demands some action to follow. The other is that it's often used as a sort of bargaining counter, kind of emotional blackmail perhaps, by one of a pair while their relationship is both more straightforward and more complicated than that.

Very logically put. 
In a way I think it can easily be the scapegoat's reflex, or the ignorance of baggage - not necessarily unnecessary or negative baggage, but nonetheless it takes much more out of someone to take the less simple way forward, such as doing rather than saying.

"I love you honey...
now go bake me a f*c*kin' pie"

Honestly it's only a matter of time before that whole statement is completely comfortable coming out of the mouth of one to another. One part truly is honey, the other is something like hard alcohol, and they don't mix well.
So why not place wages on using "I love you" respectively, sparsely, rationally, as to not drown it in the beligerently drunken world of the expected.
True love should be the unspoken gift that is, every !@#$ day, a pleasant surprise.

[manhattangirl]

We can be so logical about talking of an illogical emotion such as love.  It hits us out of the blue, it makes us feel something that may be counter to what we've known, believe, was taught.   

We want the benefits of it, but not to pledge to it.   We give it freely, but could easily take it away and say "Well my dear, I never told you I loved you".

It's like back in eighties when it was so fashionable to say "I detest TV, and don't watch, or let in my home",  now we're on-line, have gazillion channels on our TV, IPodded out, carry our phone with us where ever we go.   So much for fashion.   

With Jack and Ennis there was still doubt, confusion, neither really understood how the other felt, Ennis didn't know how much Jack loved him, until after Jack's death,  and Jack when remembering the dozy embrace accepted this one moment was as close he was going to get to his lover,  so let it be.  There was a disconnect even between them.

I'm not saying use "I love you",  like a get out jail free card, but let us not be so jaded that three little words should put such fear in us.  This story was filled with fear.   

 

[lamusica]

Honestly it's only a matter of time before that whole statement is completely comfortable coming out of the mouth of one to another. One part truly is honey, the other is something like hard alcohol, and they don't mix well.
So why not place wages on using "I love you" respectively, sparsely, rationally, as to not drown it in the beligerently drunken world of the expected.
True love should be the unspoken gift that is, every !@#$ day, a pleasant surprise.

Wow! Orangetruck!  My feelings exactly!  When "I love you" is said over and over and off-handedly, like when saying good-bye on the phone, then it becomes hackneyed and trite -- meaningless.  I prefer the very rare, but meaningful words from the right person at the right time and place.  Ennis and Jack had a lot of opportunities to say it, but did they need to?  I think we see lots of evidence in their actions to negate the need for the words.  Just MHO.

[aintfoolin]

 I totally agree. Their actions spoke louder than words could ever say. Although it would have been great to hear them say to each other just once. They did actually say though, clearly  in other words and actions.

[tpe]

I loved reading all the posts here, they're so insightful.

There's no doubt in my mind that Ennis and Jack loved each other and deeply. they didn't have to say it, it spoke volumes through their actions and through different things they've said, that you all mentioned already. the SNIT was all about love - the tenderness, the kisses, the expressions on their faces, that was so much more than sex, that was making love. Ennis retching in the alley. Jack's face as he drove away. the whole reunion scene, the way Ennis waited anxiously by the window and then that incredible hug and passionate kisses. Lying in each other's arms in the motel. The fact that in the earlier days Ennis would quit his jobs so he'd be able to meet Jack - he practically admitted that. and all those things they said to each other that were mentioned in all the posts above. And yes, I think Ennis's jealousy and his threat to Jack was an obvious testament to how strong he felt about him. But although it's clear to me that Ennis loved Jack, I'm not sure how much he was conscious of that and whether he ever admitted that to himself while Jack was alive. I can see Jack consciously realizing what his feelings were - like somebody said here (I'm sorry, I can't remember who right now), you don't plan to live your life with someone unless you realize you love them. But I think that Ennis would probably try to repress those thoughts because they were too threatening, he would be too scared to name it. I'm sure he knew that what he felt for Jack was something very powerful, something he can't control, but I don't know if he ever admitted to himself, "I love him". Maybe the trauma that he went through as a child, and all the fears that were born as a consequence, caused such a deep psychological barrier that he couldn't admit even to himself that he loved another man. And if he couldn't say that even to himself, how could he say that to Jack?

I do believe that he admitted that to himself after Jack was killed. His face when he finds the shirts - God, you don't need words for that. And when he asked Junior if Kurt loved her, it was obvious to me that he was thinking about Jack. And I'm sure that he knew then that what he had with Jack was love, and he missed it. That's the huge tragedy. :\'( :\'( :\'(

Yes, it was clear that Jack was very much on his mind when he asked Alma Jr. whether Kurt loved him.

In a way, he asked the question to himself, and Alma Jr. answered it for him.

[keren_b]

And when she answered he looked like he was about to cry.

[orangetruck]

And when she answered he looked like he was about to cry.

This was one of the hardest parts for me. Ennis' reverie aimed out of the trailer window, adjacant Alma Jr., was damn near palpable. In fact, I think it was stuck in the back of my throat. Certainly Ennis finally felt it in his, and now he had to swallow the words, digest them, and never have the chance to run from them again now that he knew they were, and by who, put in him likes seeds.
Ennis had to right then overcome his fear of 'love', but when it rains it pours; about as striking as lightening, Ennis was swallowing not just the expression of true love, but the true loss of love itself. So much to learn, yet so little little time, for Ennis had waited until the last minute. And then, by the meteoric stardust tail of that last minute, he just kept grabbing until dust was dust; It's just not enough.
I reckon he certainly felt like one of those shirts in the closet, hanging.

When I run over the whole image with the velocity of a casual blink, I gather Ennis is only susceptible to learn when something is forced at him in an instant.

Earl, ouch.
Jack, hello.
Jack, goodbye.
**
Pain.
Love.
Lost.

Just my thoughts. 

[ethan]

when it rains it pours; about as striking as lightening, Ennis was swallowing not just the expression of true love, but the true loss of love itself. So much to learn, yet so little little time.

Earl, ouch.
Jack, hello.
Jack, goodbye.
**
Pain.
Love.
Lost.

Great observation. How tragic it is to know the love and lost at the same time.

It took Jack's love for Ennis to ask Alma Jr. if this Kurt fellow loves you.

Yes, it was clear that Jack was very much on his mind when he asked Alma Jr. whether Kurt loved him.
In a way, he asked the question to himself, and Alma Jr. answered it for him.

Right on. Thanks, tpe.

[tpe]

And when she answered he looked like he was about to cry.

I actually though that he was crying, and that Alma Jr. realized this.

[manhattangirl]

Pity, Jack had to lose his life for Ennis to understand love, Alma, Jr. had to point the direction for Ennis to see it was love.   Then love is the issue, accepting it is the issue.  Homosexuality was not Ennis's problem, but the question of love was.   The word "queer" passes his lips, knowing that was what he was every time he lay with Jack, but to acknowlege that it was love  that made him want Jack, to feel for him, to make love to him, it was indeed to out of the norm for him to even accept that fact.      

Even after all of this, all he went through the close he could come to saying it was to swear to it.  

  

[tpe]

Ennis had to right then overcome his fear of 'love', but when it rains it pours; about as striking as lightening, Ennis was swallowing not just the expression of true love, but the true loss of love itself. So much to learn, yet so little little time, for Ennis had waited until the last minute. And then, by the meteoric stardust tail of that last minute, he just kept grabbing until dust was dust; It's just not enough.

How many loved your moments of glad grace,
And loved your beauty with love false or true,
But one man loved the pilgrim Soul in you,
And loved the sorrows of your changing face;

And bending down beside the glowing bars,
Murmur, a little sadly, how Love fled
And paced upon the mountains overhead
And hid his face amid a crowd of stars. 

(Yeats)

[tpe]

Pity, Jack had to lose his life for Ennis to understand love, Alma, Jr. had to point the direction for Ennis to see it was love.   Then love is the issue, accepting it is the issue.  Homosexuality was not Ennis's problem, but the question of love was.   The word "queer" passes his lips, knowing that was what he was every time he lay with Jack, but to acknowlege that it was love  that made him want Jack, to feel for him, to make love to him, it was indeed to out of the norm for him to even accept that fact.      

Even after all of this, all he went through the close he could come to saying it was to swear to it.  

  

Promise This-When You be Dying-
Some shall summon Me-
Mine belong Your latest Sighing-
Mine-to Belt Your Eye-Not with Coins-though they be Minted
From an Emperor's Hand-
Be my lips-the only Buckle
Your low Eyes-demand-Mine to stay-when all have wandered-
To devise once more
If the Life be too surrendered-
Life of Mine-restore-Poured like this-My Whole Libation-
Just that You should see
Bliss of Death-Life's Bliss extol thro'
Imitating You-Mine-to guard Your Narrow Precinct-
To seduce the Sun
Longest on Your South, to linger,
Largest Dews of MornTo demand, in Your low favor
Lest the Jealous Grass
Greener lean-Or fonder cluster
Round some other face-Mine to supplicate Madonna-
If Madonna be
Could behold so far a Creature-
Christ-omitted-Me-Just to follow Your dear future-
Ne'er so far behind-
For My Heaven-
Had I not been
Most enough-denied?


(Emily Dickinson)

[orangetruck]

I actually though that he was crying, and that Alma Jr. realized this.

Ditto. It was... how do I say it; It seemed so familiar, as if I could have seen my dad, when I was younger and he still with my mother, cry like that. When there's no other option. When even someone who wouldn't aritculate a thought, experience, a reverie with "beautiful" but would be forced to feel it and release some of it by the grace of spiritual overload perhaps.  :\'(
The crying was in his face and the way he meshed with, and sort of submitted his conscious to the daylight. This is a man who had become one. A man in the dire process of acquiring feelings which could not be controlled, ignored, or completely stifled. I think Alma Jr. realized someway that her father was capable of love and, perhaps being naive or perhaps being intuitive, she trusted no matter what was to ever happen, she'd always have the potential of her father which may have been more promising than the clocks and patterns of the cookie cut female side of the era. Although I do like to think Alma and Cassie differed greatly.

Myself, I cry like this frequently. No rhyme or reason. Feelings of all kinds simply become overwhelming. It could sound offbeat to others, but whether negative or positive, painful or pleasurable, when a feeling must come out, it's something beautiful. And sometimes this happens because we weren't able to find it beautiful while somewhere inside us; I get to wondering, and maybe the light Ennis seemed to be negotiating with in the trailer, that glow upon his face, was coming from ... of course from up in the sky - but maybe it was just Jack.

Jack was a beautiful man, which Ennis could see.
And for me, this really is so beautiful.  :\'(

[orangetruck]

How many loved your moments of glad grace,
And loved your beauty with love false or true,
But one man loved the pilgrim Soul in you,
And loved the sorrows of your changing face;

And bending down beside the glowing bars,
Murmur, a little sadly, how Love fled
And paced upon the mountains overhead
And hid his face amid a crowd of stars. 

(Yeats)

This is great, I love it. 

[tpe]

Ditto. It was... how do I say it; It seemed so familiar, as if I could have seen my dad, when I was younger and he still with my mother, cry like that. When there's no other option. When even someone who wouldn't aritculate a thought, experience, a reverie with "beautiful" but would be forced to feel it and release some of it by the grace of spiritual overload perhaps.  :\'(
The crying was in his face and the way he meshed with, and sort of submitted his conscious to the daylight. This is a man who had become one. A man in the dire process of acquiring feelings which could not be controlled, ignored, or completely stifled. I think Alma Jr. realized someway that her father was capable of love and, perhaps being naive or perhaps being intuitive, she trusted no matter what was to ever happen, she'd always have the potential of her father which may have been more promising than the clocks and patterns of the cookie cut female side of the era. Although I do like to think Alma and Cassie differed greatly.

Myself, I cry like this frequently. No rhyme or reason. Feelings of all kinds simply become overwhelming. It could sound offbeat to others, but whether negative or positive, painful or pleasurable, when a feeling must come out, it's something beautiful. And sometimes this happens because we weren't able to find it beautiful while somewhere inside us; I get to wondering, and maybe the light Ennis seemed to be negotiating with in the trailer, that glow upon his face, was coming from ... of course from up in the sky - but maybe it was just Jack.

Jack was a beautiful man, which Ennis could see.
And for me, this really is so beautiful.  :\'(

I believe that crying opens the window to the soul.  In this scene, I do think Alma Jr. did not just catch a glimpse of her father, but also of Jack.

[orangetruck]

I believe that crying opens the window to the soul.  In this scene, I do think Alma Jr. did not just catch a glimpse of her father, but also of Jack.

Me too.
And I too think she did. Jack may have passed, but nonetheless he and Ennis paint the big picture. Ennis' face, demeanor, body language, likely now the canvas.

I enjoyed the smile on Alma Jr's face when her dad reckoned they could find themselves a new cowboy. I imagine with what little or lot she was aware of, the blessing/guidance of her father would always be THE step she was after. 
When she leaves, and Ennis shuts the trailer door after trying to give her the sweater, the light delivers his face to the dimness of the trailer. Next time we see real daylight again I think is when he shuts the closet door, leaving the view through the window: The possibility of love is at least the size of the atmosphere and, from that point out, I like to believe that Ennis had come to know that it most certainly (did and) can occur in a simple human being.
 

[tpe]

Me too.
And I too think she did. Jack may have passed, but nonetheless he and Ennis paint the big picture. Ennis' face, demeanor, body language, likely now the canvas.

I enjoyed the smile on Alma Jr's face when her dad reckoned they could find themselves a new cowboy. I imagine with what little or lot she was aware of, the blessing/guidance of her father would always be THE step she was after. 
When she leaves, and Ennis shuts the trailer door after trying to give her the sweater, the light delivers his face to the dimness of the trailer. Next time we see real daylight again I think is when he shuts the closet door, leaving the view through the window: The possibility of love is at least the size of the atmosphere and, from that point out, I like to believe that Ennis had come to know that it most certainly (did and) can occur in a simple human being.
 

And Jack lives on in Ennis.  In the same way that Ennis "died" with Jack, so too Jack and thier love lives on in Ennis.

[orangetruck]

Ain't that the truth..
Such a beautiful pain.

It could be like this, just like this, always.

 

[welshwitch]

It reminds me of the "Wizard of Oz" when the Tin Man says "Now I know I have a heart, because I can feel it breaking."

[tpe]

It reminds me of the "Wizard of Oz" when the Tin Man says "Now I know I have a heart, because I can feel it breaking."

Sometimes, that's the only way to know.  In a sense, the final confrontation scene was necessary, if only to let Jack know that things did matter to Ennis.

[manhattangirl]

Sometimes, that's the only way to know.  In a sense, the final confrontation scene was necessary, if only to let Jack know that things did matter to Ennis.

In any relationship especially as one as complicated as Jack and Ennis, the "confrontation"  is bound to happen. Hurt feelings, misunderstandings, doubts crop up in any relationship, but with them it was a hint of denial in the very relationship they held on so tightly to, as far Ennis was concern afraid to see what and who he was, and  his need for another man is overwhelming.     

When Ennis blamed Jack for being the way he is, when Jack accused Ennis of keeping him on a short leash, dancing around the exact nature of who they were and what they had, and never thinking of letting each other go.  How can relationship not show the strain.     

[tpe]

In any relationship especially as one as complicated as Jack and Ennis, the "confrontation"  is bound to happen. Hurt feelings, misunderstandings, doubts crop up in any relationship, but with them it was a hint of denial in the very relationship they held on so tightly to, as far Ennis was concern afraid to see what and who he was, and  his need for another man is overwhelming.     

When Ennis blamed Jack for being the way he is, when Jack accused Ennis of keeping him on a short leash, dancing around the exact nature of who they were and what they had, and never thinking of letting each other go.  How can relationship not show the strain.     

For some reason, I had been thinking over the past few days about this confrontation scene -- thinking about it relative to that great non-confrontation scene in that other pioneering work of gay fiction: Mary Renault's "The Charioteer". 

One doesn't have to know this latter work I think, if I can state my thoughts here clearly enough.  There are types of love wherein it is best to leave certain things unsaid and even partially unresolved, if only to recognize that what certain things become transparent when not verbalized or acted upon.  This was approximately the case in Renault's novel, in dealing with the final attempt by the protagonist Laurie to see Andrew. 

In BBM, it is interesting to note that although there is a confrontation between Ennis and Jack in their final meeting, nothing there gets really resolved either.  As in Renault's novel, the only finality would seem to be a suggestion that Jack resolves to move on, perhaps never to see Ennis ever again (and indeed, he doesn't.)

I think the confrontation scene in BBM carries with it a final note of impotence, juxtaposing it with that scene of the Dozy embrace where everything is understood without the use of words.  To a certain extent, perhaps Proulx has recognized the futility of direct confrontation and shows us through Jack's valedictory, that their love is something that will remain unexpressed -- not completely inderstood.  It shys away from the light of day.  And yet there is no doubt that it is there.

So yes, I do agree that the confrontation is bound to happen, if only perhaps to show the futility of defining their love within iron-clad rules and boundaries.  At its best, the confrontation scene reveals to Jack and Ennis how very tenuous is passion, and that love is something that endures in the unspoken depths of the heart -- even as hate, anger, and pain boil to the surface.

[manhattangirl]

For some reason, I had been thinking over the past few days about this confrontation scene -- thinking about it relative to that great non-confrontation scene in that other pioneering work of gay fiction: Mary Renault's "The Charioteer". 

One doesn't have to know this latter work I think, if I can state my thoughts here clearly enough.  There are types of love wherein it is best to leave certain things unsaid and even partially unresolved, if only to recognize that what certain things become transparent when not verbalized or acted upon.  This was approximately the case in Renault's novel, in dealing with the final attempt by the protagonist Laurie to see Andrew. 

In BBM, it is interesting to note that although there is a confrontation between Ennis and Jack in their final meeting, nothing there gets really resolved either.  As in Renault's novel, the only finality would seem to be a suggestion that Jack resolves to move on, perhaps never to see Ennis ever again (and indeed, he doesn't.)

I think the confrontation scene in BBM carries with it a final note of impotence, juxtaposing it with that scene of the Dozy embrace where everything is understood without the use of words.  To a certain extent, perhaps Proulx has recognized the futility of direct confrontation and shows us through Jack's valedictory, that their love is something that will remain unexpressed -- not completely inderstood.  It shys away from the light of day.  And yet there is no doubt that it is there.

So yes, I do agree that the confrontation is bound to happen, if only perhaps to show the futility of defining their love within iron-clad rules and boundaries.  At its best, the confrontation scene reveals to Jack and Ennis how very tenuous is passion, and that love is something that endures in the unspoken depths of the heart -- even as hate, anger, and pain boil to the surface.

What is is.  The unspoken, unspeakable need.  "let be, let be".   

[tpe]

What is is.  The unspoken, unspeakable need.  "let be, let be".   

manhattangirl, you say it here so beautifully: The unspoken, unspeakable need.  Thank you.

[welshwitch]

"I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the heart's affections." These two were; the dozy embrace shows it.

[tpe]

"I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the heart's affections." These two were; the dozy embrace shows it.

Yes, the Dozy Embrace is an example of those precious moments in love: those that are recognized to be most significant in the long run, although when they occured, they didn't seem that significant.

 

[aintfoolin]

I feel that's because none of  us knows the future. What's here today, may not be here tommorrow. When a loved one is lost, we only have memories from that point on. regrets? maybe as Ennis did, but the love of Jack will live in him forever. His unexpected insight into Ennis, leaving the shirts for Ennis to have for his own, is evidence of a lasting love. MO. Jack lives. Too

[tpe]

I feel that's because none of  us knows the future. What's here today, may not be here tommorrow. When a loved one is lost, we only have memories from that point on. regrets? maybe as Ennis did, but the love of Jack will live in him forever. His unexpected insight into Ennis, leaving the shirts for Ennis to have for his own, is evidence of a lasting love. MO. Jack lives. Too

What you say here is true, aintfoolin.  Our inability to know the future makes us incapabale of fully appreciating the moment: be it past or present.  Such is the case with their love.  And yes, because of that love, Jack lives.

[orangetruck]

Nice.

However, I feel a little peculiar about this and the intuition of Jack.
Jack's heart was Jack's heart, then, now, later:
It and other things were unveiled that Summer. His heart would then eventually become the future to what had happened - the love that occured between him and Ennis. I think the shirts were basically a perfect replica of how Jack did appreciate and value this love; part of the beautiful misery is that Ennis came to also do so only at the very moment of finding what Jack had left.
And what Jack had left was love palpable, something physical Ennis could finally touch, finally understand.
It's really a brutal formula and one that has flailed in its mystery to finally let go and certainly rest in the crevace of one man's heart. Just a small secluded spot (like Brokeback Mountain itself) where both men's spirits live on.

Oh how Jack knew and appreciated this love, and still does.
 :\'(