Topic: How long would have Jack and Ennis relationship endure?

[myprivatejack]

Richard    .Maybe this is the greatness of both the s.s. and the movie,no?;how Ennis can learn about this experience,feeling and being free to admit he was in love with another man.And living this love fully and completely,much more than when all his fears and suspicions chained him to his loneliness.Even if all of us had wished that this love,even with its faults,had endured not only in dreams,but in reality and forever. :\'(

[rlh03]

myprivatejack - after reading my comment again and then yours, I realized I strayed a little from the original question.  And that there are, I feel, really two issues to face.  First, the endurance of their love, and second, the endurance of their relationship.  And the result of one issue may not necessarily have been true for the other.  Their love of each for the other - regardless of his other issues, Ennis had a deep, lasting and abiding love for Jack, even tho he was frightened of it.  For the rest of his life, and regardless of anything else happening, Ennis will love Jack, and only Jack.  He may have a kind of love for others later in life, but Jack will always be his first and most enduring love.  As far as Jack and his love for Ennis - much of the same can be said.  He has such a love for Ennis, so deeply that an end to their relationship cannot destroy it; even tho he may have to move on to find those other things in his life that are so important to him.  But in his heart of hearts, he will always love Ennis first and foremost.  So, you have to say they had a most enduring and lasting love.  Whether they were able to express it again and and experience a wonderful lasting relationship is another issue.  My personal feelings are that they would separate for some time, but their need for each other would draw them back together into a relationship, maybe several times.  But each return would make both of them see how much stronger their love and need for each other is becoming that they will both move to do whatever is necessary to secure a lasting bond and relationship.  They each would accept that life without the other was not an acceptable option.  And one must remember, all this is predicated on Jack not dying and that the end, Ennis alone in the trailer with the shirts and postcards, was not the beginning of the rest of his life alone.

[atalley]

It would have been worse than death for Ennis to be deprieved of his dreams.  Whether or not the dreams were happy or sad, I would think that Ennis would not want to live without them.  Perhaps the dreams became his own reality.  Their love certainly endures in dreams.

Yes!  This is very important to their love being eternal.  Thanks Thomas!

[tpe]

Thanks atalley, Richard, and MPJ.

It is certainly important to distinguish between their love and the relationship.  I do agree that although the relationship between them became more and more tenuous with each passing year, their love remained unchanged/intact.  I tend to think that the latter is much more important than the former.  And love certainly endures beyond separation and even death. 

[myprivatejack]

Thanks atalley, Richard, and MPJ.

It is certainly important to distinguish between their love and the relationship.  I do agree that although the relationship between them became more and more tenuous with each passing year, their love remained unchanged/intact.  I tend to think that the latter is much more important than the former.  And love certainly endures beyond separation and even death. 

I've always wanted to distinguish between their relationship's endurance-being or not together and bearing in mind the point to which they had arrived...-and the love they could easily feel forever,even with another persons,even if they separate from each other.As a matter of fact,that's the reason why I began this thread; because I had my doubts about if the confrontation scene could have marked a "before" and an "after" in their relationship or if everything had remained the same,even arriving to the separation.

[tpe]

The difficulty in my mind rests on whther we can take out the love in the relationship.  Without it, it is not a question of whether or not it would endure -- it won't.  And yet, we can say the the love goes beyond the relationship.  It informs who they are in the deepest sense -- even that part of them is forever unreachable by the other in a relationship.

[myprivatejack]

The difficulty in my mind rests on whther we can take out the love in the relationship.  Without it, it is not a question of whether or not it would endure -- it won't.  And yet, we can say the the love goes beyond the relationship.  It informs who they are in the deepest sense -- even that part of them is forever unreachable by the other in a relationship.

Of course,I think we agree in that their love was strong enough as to survive to all the difficulties they had to manage with during almost 20 years.IMO,this is the best and greatest proof that this love had an enduring basis...But I was referring to the possibility that their relationship,mainly by living together at the end,would have the same strength as to survive,according to what we've seen of both characters up to now.

[tpe]

Thanks MPJ.  A relationship at close quarters can go two way, correct?  Either overfamiliarity breeds contempt, or that closer proximity deepens one's resolve.  In the case of Jack and Ennis, I somehow feel that living together would havwe deepened their resolve -- there is no basis for my saying this as a matter of fact.  It's just that I think in the beginning, their love will sustain them in the day-to-day struggles of living together.  And after than, the relationship will allow that same love to deepen even more...

[myprivatejack]

Thanks MPJ.  A relationship at close quarters can go two way, correct?  Either overfamiliarity breeds contempt, or that closer proximity deepens one's resolve.  In the case of Jack and Ennis, I somehow feel that living together would havwe deepened their resolve -- there is no basis for my saying this as a matter of fact.  It's just that I think in the beginning, their love will sustain them in the day-to-day struggles of living together.  And after than, the relationship will allow that same love to deepen even more...

As you say,it could go two ways; dealing with the problems and happiness of living together could deepen their love,in a positive sense.But also this same struggle,joined and magnified with fears and suspicions about their own way of living,could perfectly be after some time a "wearing down" and,so,a problem in itself,in a negative way.

[tpe]

The dream of living together would certainly pose much greater challenges.  It is true that it could lead to a magnification of fears, suspicions, and vulnerabilities, and this could wear down a relationship as much as it could deepen it.

That would be the test of endurance, no?  Something cannot endure if it has not gone through/purified by fire, as a metal is tempered in a furnace.

[rlh03]

tpe, this thread is certainly interesting and really has a lot of people thinking, for Ennis both after Jack's death and how things might have gone had Jack lived.  I don't know where to put this comment so please feel free to move it if necessary.  There is a most beautiful interpretation of what Ennis' life might have been out there written by AtomicTwilight.  The story (a multiple hanky one) is called Bitter Peace and can be found at fanfiction.net/s/4635680/1/   Richard/rlh03

[tpe]

tpe, this thread is certainly interesting and really has a lot of people thinking, for Ennis both after Jack's death and how things might have gone had Jack lived.  I don't know where to put this comment so please feel free to move it if necessary.  There is a most beautiful interpretation of what Ennis' life might have been out there written by AtomicTwilight.  The story (a multiple hanky one) is called Bitter Peace and can be found at fanfiction.net/s/4635680/1/   Richard/rlh03

Thanks rlh03!  I think the thought of what could have been truly inspires many of us to creativity, and to think of an alternative scenario only deepens our appreciation of the tragedy that is BBM.

[rlh03]

tpe - reply 219 - I think yours is a most salient point.  Will their relationship endure is more a key issue than their love of each for the other.  They both have somewhat of a fiery temper.  They both always had lingering doubts of the solidity of the others feelings.  They both seem to basically fear they can't live up to each others expectations, while we continue to witness their need each for the other seems to continue to grow.  And this growth imposes stronger issues for both of them.  Their self-esteem also imposes restrictions for their  recognition and total acceptance and strength of the others love.  All these things combined will continue to cause their struggles to surface - and all the time the love each feels for the other, I think, will continue to grow and become the solid endurance factor for them.  This love will cause them to recognize more and more that neither of them can envision life without the other.  Their road will be bumpy, tho.  I don't see any way around that as they, step by step, incident by incident, stumble across their failings.  But, they will survive each time and its this survival that will move them closer and closer over time.  And yes, I'm a hopeless and optimistic romantic when it comes to these two and what might have been.  And that causes me to no more envision either of them without the other in the long run than I can eliminate the struggle of Sisyphus. But, hoping my thoughts have some validity makes my dealing with the lasting impact of BBM (and even the death of Heath) a little more bearable.  And do I think AP thought about all these possibilities for Ennis and Jack in the development of her story?  Yes, I do.  And thats why she wrote it as she did.     

[rlh03]

tpe, this thread is certainly interesting and really has a lot of people thinking, for Ennis both after Jack's death and how things might have gone had Jack lived.  I don't know where to put this comment so please feel free to move it if necessary.  There is a most beautiful interpretation of what Ennis' life might have been out there written by AtomicTwilight.  The story (a multiple hanky one) is called Bitter Peace and can be found at fanfiction.net/s/4635680/1/   Richard/rlh03

ERROR ERROR ERROR  -  tpe  my sincerest apologies, I miskeyed the address of this story.  The correct one is fanfiction.net/s/4535680/1/

[tpe]

Thanks rlh03 for the correction.

I am a bit abashed to say that I am ususally the hopeless pessimist, with a deep abiding taste of tragedy.  I have no way to justify it, except that in defeat, we sometimes see the greatest heroism as well as the darkest depths of human nature.  Happiness would seem to take a back seat, if only our beloved characters are made immortal by immolation.

[myprivatejack]

Coming back to the thread's subject,we can't know for sure if their relationship would have endured until their old age,being Jack alive.What I see every time more and more clearer is that the last confrontation were going to mark "a before and an after" in it,even with more problems for both of them;because on one side,if Ennis seemed more willing to do this so hoped further step in their "sweet life together",on the other side Jack seemed really fed up with the situation.Fed up with struggling with something he knew from the very moment Ennis rejected after his divorce,that was never going to happen and fed up with loving so much without having a clear answer,and sometimes neither a clear correspondence,to this love.
So,if Jack was decided to move on,maybe, by substituting someone with another one(what is sometimes a good way to ,not forget,but to avoid being so hurt...),I wonder if one more time,both of them were going to speak the same language,but with different dialect...I mean,if one more time,when one wanted,the other didn't,but this time with a change of roles.

[atalley]

I think that breaking it off w/ Cassie was a start in Ennis realizing that he was not going to be happy w/ anyone but Jack. 

[vedrana]

Coming back to the thread's subject,we can't know for sure if their relationship would have endured until their old age,being Jack alive.What I see every time more and more clearer is that the last confrontation were going to mark "a before and an after" in it,even with more problems for both of them;because on one side,if Ennis seemed more willing to do this so hoped further step in their "sweet life together",on the other side Jack seemed really fed up with the situation.Fed up with struggling with something he knew from the very moment Ennis rejected after his divorce,that was never going to happen and fed up with loving so much without having a clear answer,and sometimes neither a clear correspondence,to this love.
So,if Jack was decided to move on,maybe, by substituting someone with another one(what is sometimes a good way to ,not forget,but to avoid being so hurt...),I wonder if one more time,both of them were going to speak the same language,but with different dialect...I mean,if one more time,when one wanted,the other didn't,but this time with a change of roles.

MPJ, if I understood you well, you are asking what if Ennis is the one who would accept the changes after the FC, but then Jack could the one who will refuse his offer.

I honestly don't think so. Jack sacrificed so many things in his life for one goal only, and when that goal would be reached - suddenly he loses his interest?
I don't know, I could be romantic when it comes to their love ( and solely to their love ), but I believe that they HAD IT! It was just the tragic ending of my dear Jack which stopped the things happen. Jack himself would have never ever stopped them. IMHO

I see them together forever in my mind. The movie and SS are only one possible end of their story. Not the only one!

[myprivatejack]

MPJ, if I understood you well, you are asking what if Ennis is the one who would accept the changes after the FC, but then Jack could the one who will refuse his offer.

I honestly don't think so. Jack sacrificed so many things in his life for one goal only, and when that goal would be reached - suddenly he loses his interest?
I don't know, I could be romantic when it comes to their love ( and solely to their love ), but I believe that they HAD IT! It was just the tragic ending of my dear Jack which stopped the things happen. Jack himself would have never ever stopped them. IMHO

I see them together forever in my mind. The movie and SS are only one possible end of their story. Not the only one!

Well,let's coming back to the old threads,even if I can't remember what I said then...but I can't let your post without an answer,or a re-answer¡    I don't believe Jack would have loose his interest,and less still suddenly.Precisely because,as you say,he had sacrificed so many things in his life for this goal,a moment arrives when he,or any other person,is hopeless in that this goal could be reached.And even when there's an slight hope of reaching it,lack of a real trust can have a greater weight in his reactions,just because of this;of all the years when he had to swallow his hopes in the most radical and rudest way sometimes...
What I meant in my former post is that we don't know for sure if maybe all these reasons weighted too much in Jack's state of mind after FC as to believe Ennis change of his.I repeat that sometimes one needs to move on,not for a real need of having sex or,even,love,but for not being hurt no more,to try to forget in sum...And that maybe in that very moment,FC could have meant a point of no return for both of them;all these things never said before in so many years,logically could have meant too an "after and a before"in their relationship.Even if this sweet life together had been the reason in Jack's life,maybe it could arrived a little late,or at least,it had needed a little of time more to be really believed and trusted in.

[traveller]

MPJ, if I understood you well, you are asking what if Ennis is the one who would accept the changes after the FC, but then Jack could the one who will refuse his offer.

I honestly don't think so. Jack sacrificed so many things in his life for one goal only, and when that goal would be reached - suddenly he loses his interest?
I don't know, I could be romantic when it comes to their love ( and solely to their love ), but I believe that they HAD IT! It was just the tragic ending of my dear Jack which stopped the things happen. Jack himself would have never ever stopped them. IMHO

I see them together forever in my mind. The movie and SS are only one possible end of their story. Not the only one!

Thank you for sharing your hope, Loreen. It's so needed today.

Well,let's coming back to the old threads,even if I can't remember what I said then...but I can't let your post without an answer,or a re-answer¡   I don't believe Jack would have loose his interest,and less still suddenly.Precisely because,as you say,he had sacrificed so many things in his life for this goal,a moment arrives when he,or any other person,is hopeless in that this goal could be reached.And even when there's an slight hope of reaching it,lack of a real trust can have a greater weight in his reactions,just because of this;of all the years when he had to swallow his hopes in the most radical and rudest way sometimes...
What I meant in my former post is that we don't know for sure if maybe all these reasons weighted too much in Jack's state of mind after FC as to believe Ennis change of his.I repeat that sometimes one needs to move on,not for a real need of having sex or,even,love,but for not being hurt no more,to try to forget in sum...And that maybe in that very moment,FC could have meant a point of no return for both of them;all these things never said before in so many years,logically could have meant too an "after and a before"in their relationship.Even if this sweet life together had been the reason in Jack's life,maybe it could arrived a little late,or at least,it had needed a little of time more to be really believed and trusted in.

MPJ, I love so much what you said about need of not being hurt anymore. It must be so painfull for Jack to live all these years around Ennis but not really with him. I wonder where is the difference in their acceptance of such a part-time/ocassional relationship. I neither believe it was different sexual needs nor ability to manage these ones. Whas is only different attitude to social rules and constraints or to being gay?. And maybe Jack realised his feeling to Ennis clearer? I don't know, still looking for answer

[vedrana]

Well,let's coming back to the old threads,even if I can't remember what I said then...but I can't let your post without an answer,or a re-answer¡    I don't believe Jack would have loose his interest,and less still suddenly.Precisely because,as you say,he had sacrificed so many things in his life for this goal,a moment arrives when he,or any other person,is hopeless in that this goal could be reached.And even when there's an slight hope of reaching it,lack of a real trust can have a greater weight in his reactions,just because of this;of all the years when he had to swallow his hopes in the most radical and rudest way sometimes...
What I meant in my former post is that we don't know for sure if maybe all these reasons weighted too much in Jack's state of mind after FC as to believe Ennis change of his.I repeat that sometimes one needs to move on,not for a real need of having sex or,even,love,but for not being hurt no more,to try to forget in sum...And that maybe in that very moment,FC could have meant a point of no return for both of them;all these things never said before in so many years,logically could have meant too an "after and a before"in their relationship.Even if this sweet life together had been the reason in Jack's life,maybe it could arrived a little late,or at least,it had needed a little of time more to be really believed and trusted in.

OK, now! This bold words made me sob again for my Jack!  :\'( :\'( :\'(

You know how I feel and think and feel - I see Jack and Ennis together. After the FC, Ennis was ready to make some changes in the relationship, coz he wanted to meet Jack even he found out about the other men in his life. That means that he accepted some things that were very hurtful for him. Jack also knew that he had hurt Ennis with his words, and broke him cry on his knees. Surely he wanted also to sort things out. I believe that they had all the reasons and motives to see each other again and to resolve the problem. Also, I am sure that the outcome would be - the two of them together. 

As I said - maybe I'm too romantic.... 

[tpe]

I believ one of the last things we were discussing before the big less of data was whether Things would have worked out with Ennis and jack had they tried to live together up in LF.  As I had said, I think that it would have worked somehow, in spite of John Twist.  LF gave Ennis and jack some convenient "cover" that they would not have had had they lived together by themselves.  And I do think that John Twist may have needed the extra hand anyway...

 

[vedrana]

I believ one of the last things we were discussing before the big less of data was whether Things would have worked out with Ennis and jack had they tried to live together up in LF.  As I had said, I think that it would have worked somehow, in spite of John Twist.  LF gave Ennis and jack some convenient "cover" that they would not have had had they lived together by themselves.  And I do think that John Twist may have needed the extra hand anyway...

You're right! I forgot the last parts of the discussion in this thread, but that's why we have you around here

Well, there's some truth in your words I have to admit. It is just that I am not sure what will prevail in old man's head - his need for the extra hand or his disgust over his son's way of living. Not to mention that he didn't love Jack in the proper father's love. And Jack, bringing his lover home would be a great challenge for John Twist.

On the other hand, and it just occurred to me - John Twist was a selfish person and there's a possibility that he couldn't care less for Jack or anything about Jack as long as he had a helping hand on the ranch. Hm... that's also possible, but IMO even more despicable when it comes to John Twist, coz it's always about him. Jack never mattered! 
Of course the reasons of Jack's Ma to accept Ennis would be much more different, more human.

[myprivatejack]

MPJ, I love so much what you said about need of not being hurt anymore. It must be so painfull for Jack to live all these years around Ennis but not really with him. I wonder where is the difference in their acceptance of such a part-time/ocassional relationship. I neither believe it was different sexual needs nor ability to manage these ones. Whas is only different attitude to social rules and constraints or to being gay?. And maybe Jack realised his feeling to Ennis clearer? I don't know, still looking for answer

Thank you,Traveller ¡ I have remarked your phrase about the way Jack had a relationship with Ennis,because I have also liked it very much;...to live all these years around Ennis but not really with him. You're right;Jack builded somehow all his life according to Ennis needs,reactions and other circumstances;for,because of,to,around,from,of,sometimes even against Ennis...but in this unbearable grammar's test the most important preposition lacks:WITH Ennis...
I think the main reason for this is that both of them had some very different attitudes before life as regards to the acceptance of loving another man,what Jack had seen clearer and much before Ennis and,what's more important,had accepted in a clearer and less guilty way.It's maybe,or almost sure,for this that I've dared to say that Jack had arrived to a point of non return after FC and that maybe too,he was going to be much more cautious in his relationship from that moment onwards;meanwhile for Ennis,maybe too it had meant "to see the light"-or at least,a little more of light...-because he had been able to compare each other's reasons during this confrontation.But,isn't the story of their love the one of a unbearable lack of synchronicity?...

[myprivatejack]

I believ one of the last things we were discussing before the big less of data was whether Things would have worked out with Ennis and jack had they tried to live together up in LF.  As I had said, I think that it would have worked somehow, in spite of John Twist.  LF gave Ennis and jack some convenient "cover" that they would not have had had they lived together by themselves.  And I do think that John Twist may have needed the extra hand anyway...

I think this would have been kind of ambivalent situation; on one hand,you're right in that living and working in LF ranch had been a cover that had allowed them to live together in a more dissimulated way than being by themselves.But,on the other hand,-and as Loreen has remarked-I wonder if living with OMT hadn't been another danger for them,because this one didn't ever mind for his son's happiness and confort,for not saying that he depicted him clearly.Hadn't been seeing his son living with his same sex lover a way to increase this depiction? And could it be translated into some kind of danger for both of them? If he had been just like Ma Twist,the cover had worked completely,but in this case,I'm doubtful...

[traveller]

Thank you,Traveller ¡ I have remarked your phrase about the way Jack had a relationship with Ennis,because I have also liked it very much;...to live all these years around Ennis but not really with him. You're right;Jack builded somehow all his life according to Ennis needs,reactions and other circumstances;for,because of,to,around,from,of,sometimes even against Ennis...but in this unbearable grammar's test the most important preposition lacks:WITH Ennis...
I think the main reason for this is that both of them had some very different attitudes before life as regards to the acceptance of loving another man,what Jack had seen clearer and much before Ennis and,what's more important,had accepted in a clearer and less guilty way.It's maybe,or almost sure,for this that I've dared to say that Jack had arrived to a point of non return after FC and that maybe too,he was going to be much more cautious in his relationship from that moment onwards;meanwhile for Ennis,maybe too it had meant "to see the light"-or at least,a little more of light...-because he had been able to compare each other's reasons during this confrontation.But,isn't the story of their love the one of a unbearable lack of synchronicity?...

MPJ, what a great insight ! Lack of synchronisity! I have never noticed this aspect before. Thank you for giving me such an interesting point of view for my consideration.

[atalley]

I think that their relationship would have endured if Jack had not died, but I can't see LF as being a "safe haven" as long as Jack's pa was alive.

[tpe]

You're right! I forgot the last parts of the discussion in this thread, but that's why we have you around here

Well, there's some truth in your words I have to admit. It is just that I am not sure what will prevail in old man's head - his need for the extra hand or his disgust over his son's way of living. Not to mention that he didn't love Jack in the proper father's love. And Jack, bringing his lover home would be a great challenge for John Twist.

On the other hand, and it just occurred to me - John Twist was a selfish person and there's a possibility that he couldn't care less for Jack or anything about Jack as long as he had a helping hand on the ranch. Hm... that's also possible, but IMO even more despicable when it comes to John Twist, coz it's always about him. Jack never mattered! 
Of course the reasons of Jack's Ma to accept Ennis would be much more different, more human.

I did mention in a lost post here that some members would disagree with our assessment of John Twist.  Some memebers have incdeed come to his defense, saying that all he wanted was some help to run the ranch.  Although I am not sympathetic to John Twist, I tend to consider this a possibility. 

IN any case, I think that in spite of John Twist, Ennis and Jack could have made things work.  Ennis provided the necessary discretion whereas Jack provided the push to live a little.  They complemented each other quite nicely, and I think they would have worked well together up in LF.

[tpe]

I think this would have been kind of ambivalent situation; on one hand,you're right in that living and working in LF ranch had been a cover that had allowed them to live together in a more dissimulated way than being by themselves.But,on the other hand,-and as Loreen has remarked-I wonder if living with OMT hadn't been another danger for them,because this one didn't ever mind for his son's happiness and confort,for not saying that he depicted him clearly.Hadn't been seeing his son living with his same sex lover a way to increase this depiction? And could it be translated into some kind of danger for both of them? If he had been just like Ma Twist,the cover had worked completely,but in this case,I'm doubtful...

I had wondered about the mechanics of their interacting with the older Twists.  It is hard to imagine them meeting and interacting freely day by day, although one wonders whether this is required when ruiing the ranch.  Perhaps Jack would have eaed out his father in the day-to-day management?  Sort of a forced retirement, perhaps?

I think Ennis and Jack would have found a way of keeing things discreet when it comes to the elder Twists...

[tpe]

I think that their relationship would have endured if Jack had not died, but I can't see LF as being a "safe haven" as long as Jack's pa was alive.

But it could haver been "relatively" safe, do you think?   Perhaps it would have been worse had they lived by themselves in the midst of or near a disapproving/hostile town.  As I mentioned, the Twsit ranch provided some cover, if they somehow managed to keep the elder Twist under control...