Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?

[lancecowboy]

Aintfoolin,  Love what you wrote, in any relationship there's a point where no matter how painful, you have look at it honestly.  Your take on Jack is beautiful, he did need that "proof of  love".

Tony- I just call it as I see it.  From New York with love

Yeah, I second that. Ennis was deeply in love with Jack, but the wall built by his fear was high. I don't think he consciously compartmentalize his world, as others smarter and more sophisticated may do. Ennis simply had walls that block out parts of himself.

I think Ennis loved Jack so very very much because Jack was the one soul that can reach over the wall, and chase away his loneliness. No woman or man had done that. But Jack needed more than just fun, or feelings, or passion. He needed time. The one thing Ennis didn't have to give.

Jack didn't ask of Laureen for more time. We could do it on the phone. What he wanted was also what Ennis yearn for, time together, like on Brokeback Mountain, but in new places, sharing new experiences.

Problem was, Ennis was happy and content with the same old mountain. Ennis was happy and content with just beans. That's why he was enjoying his dinner so much, in their first camp fire scene when Ennis talked more than in a year. Jack said after FNIT "beans for supper" to humor Ennis, the man who would prefer the same dinner, the same mountain, the same routine, as long as he had Jack f#@king Twist, the world was wonderful and alive. But Jack wanted to experience the world through Ennis' innocence. And the longing for it made the frustration unbearable each time he enjoys a new experience outside of Wyoming. It make him miss Ennis all the more.

Thanks, Manhattangirl. As you said, at some point in the relationship, we have to look at it honestly, no matter how painful, and move on, as Cassie did.

[tpe]

Ennis tried to compartmentalize everything. He was good at it up to the point of dealing with the love he had for Jack. Though he tried to keep everything in order, his life was turned upside down when it came to putting this love affair in the "right place".
He found the scales tipping more and more toward Jack and the "thing" he had for him. He could'nt tie this one up in a nice tidy little package to be brought out only when he wanted it to. I feel his love for Jack possesed him to the point where his devotion was out of control. It was the one thing he could not control, even on a daily basis.
 Jack was right up there with what Ennis treasured the most. The love of his little girls and his horses. He was his "little darlin" and in this context had a protective feel to it. You are absolutly right MG and Tpe, that Ennis was not content, not really. IMO, the more he tried to keep his feelings for Jack "in their place" ( it's little "compartment") the more he realized that this was something way beyond what he could master. He needed this like flowers need rain and sunshine.
This "balancing act" was doing damage to the relationship for there was the battle going on within it. Jack explined it to him and did'nt minced words in the confrontation scene, telling Ennis that he "was not him".  No doubt the sex was good,  but Jack wanted more, a commitment from Ennis and "proof" that this wasn't just a game being played , that he wasn't being played along with it. What is sex really without the expressed truth of the act. He needed to know from Ennis that his efforts and the giving of himself, MEANT something.

 His statement " I wish I knew how to quit you" is testament to how deeply Jack's feelings went, though at this point frustration had most definitly set in. His feelings were clearly define in how he felt about Ennis, but he was at the end of his rope as far as understanding why what was so obvious to him was still was still being weighed out and rationed through this couple of meetings a year. Getting Ennis to "give up the fight" was proving to be futile and  pushed him into the arms of Randall and other men, but it was Ennis who he wanted the most. Jack wished he knew how to solve this problem rather than "quit".  Finally he lays Ennis bear with words, and Ennis's real truths were exposed. He too, with all the denials finally confesses that he couldn't stand it any more either. I am reminded of the passage in the book The old man and the Sea. " To the end ,I grapple with thee". My thoughts.

Yes, we see this even in the sex scenes -- manifested in violent swings between reticence and agressiveness.  The average of the two swings negate each other out.  It was as if the tug or pull of opposing tendencies inside Ennis was trying to keep a rough equilibrium...

[Tony]

     Tpe has brought out, again, the balancing act for Ennis or, the equilibrium.  But what was that balancing act? IMO, it is simplistic and
shallow to write it off to a repressed gay trying to think of himself as straight and also avoiding hassle from the homophobic culture, while
still having an affair on the side.
    Ennis HAD come to terms with his need for Jack, which included the sexual, but which was so much more--companionship, being
completely accepted, as he was, by one other human being.  As for his being in the closet, bull crap---he had a practical understanding
he couldn't change the world as it was out there, so he was discreet.  That he had come to terms with his sexuality with Jack is very
evident in his patient, extremely mature, and almost casual hearing-out of Jack's father's words: "Brokeback Mountain--I know where
that is.."  Read that-- I know what that is and about you and my son.  Ennis doesn't cover up or protest at the coded, telegraphed
words from Twist, Sr.,---but calmly and TOLERANTLY accepts them.  This, then, is a man who isn't ashamed.  In turmoil, yes, but never
ashamed.
    Maybe it's not a question, then of a balancing act.  Maybe it's----paralysis.  Every option blocked off.  Couldn't leave his children just
yet.  Had to earn a living where he was.  And no matter what reassurances Jack gave, he never could trust Jack completely, with his
heart---remember, it was Jack that seemed to blow off that first summer as a fling, and Ennis who went to brood on the hill, desolate.
Jack sent mixed messages.  And then again, how much of what Jack wanted was sex, rather than a love that could never die?  Which was
what Ennis needed, and he didn't know, until too late, that it was fully there.
    So, maybe--paralysis, which is debilitating. Jack had gone on to be successful, financially, and had a larger social life-Jack wasn't
paralyzed-he was going all over the place.   But notice what Ennis says in the confrontation scene---it's because of you I'm like this--
(and he doesn't mean--gay).  He says- he ain't nobody, he's got nothing- all because of Jack.  Hell of an accusation.  Didn't say
anything about sex. Said everything about personal decline and, if you will,---paralysis.
    Maybe then, balancing act covers a lot and is useful.  But paralysis, inability to make a move--too much risk, covers a lot more.
Sometimes I wish people who love both of these heroes, would back off and give Ennis more of a break.  Not saying he isn't loved-
but it's like everybody has an agenda that it's all Ennis fault- he wouldn't join the gay liberation movement and move to San Francisco
with Jack, there to be totally free. Give him a break.  Maybe he was more advanced than given credit for.
   Oh, yeah-aintfooling-am picketting your house through cyberspace with my sign: "Ennis would too bottom!"  If the neighbors are
annoyed-will stop.                    Tony.

[Tony]

     Whoops, a very quick explanation of the above post.  Aintfooling, that wishing that people would back off on their blaming Ennis
was NOT aimed at you.  You and me have a tilt, sometimes, towards digging more into Ennis, and I love and respect you for that.
     Not aimed at anyone else, in particular, either.  To tell you the truth, there's no one in this forum I haven't liked, although have been
a little intimidated by some of the old hands and a little shy of some others (manhattengirl, welshwitch,flowerchild) for whatever reason.
    But it occurred to me that my rant, and then mentioning my cyberspace picketting would give the wrong impression.  You are one
of my favorite people.  But I still think there's an amorphous blob of thought out there---blaming Ennis, and they do.  Aintfoolin, you know
they do.
    Dammit-is this a case of being controversial again?  Well, in the immortal words of the greatest philosopher ever produced by the
United States------"moi ?".  Miss Piggy could handle this a little better.  Much love, Tony.

[tpe]

     Tpe has brought out, again, the balancing act for Ennis or, the equilibrium.  But what was that balancing act? IMO, it is simplistic and
shallow to write it off to a repressed gay trying to think of himself as straight and also avoiding hassle from the homophobic culture, while
still having an affair on the side.
    Ennis HAD come to terms with his need for Jack, which included the sexual, but which was so much more--companionship, being
completely accepted, as he was, by one other human being.  As for his being in the closet, bull crap---he had a practical understanding
he couldn't change the world as it was out there, so he was discreet.  That he had come to terms with his sexuality with Jack is very
evident in his patient, extremely mature, and almost casual hearing-out of Jack's father's words: "Brokeback Mountain--I know where
that is.."  Read that-- I know what that is and about you and my son.  Ennis doesn't cover up or protest at the coded, telegraphed
words from Twist, Sr.,---but calmly and TOLERANTLY accepts them.  This, then, is a man who isn't ashamed.  In turmoil, yes, but never
ashamed.
    Maybe it's not a question, then of a balancing act.  Maybe it's----paralysis.  Every option blocked off.  Couldn't leave his children just
yet.  Had to earn a living where he was.  And no matter what reassurances Jack gave, he never could trust Jack completely, with his
heart---remember, it was Jack that seemed to blow off that first summer as a fling, and Ennis who went to brood on the hill, desolate.
Jack sent mixed messages.  And then again, how much of what Jack wanted was sex, rather than a love that could never die?  Which was
what Ennis needed, and he didn't know, until too late, that it was fully there.
    So, maybe--paralysis, which is debilitating. Jack had gone on to be successful, financially, and had a larger social life-Jack wasn't
paralyzed-he was going all over the place.   But notice what Ennis says in the confrontation scene---it's because of you I'm like this--
(and he doesn't mean--gay).  He says- he ain't nobody, he's got nothing- all because of Jack.  Hell of an accusation.  Didn't say
anything about sex. Said everything about personal decline and, if you will,---paralysis.
    Maybe then, balancing act covers a lot and is useful.  But paralysis, inability to make a move--too much risk, covers a lot more.
Sometimes I wish people who love both of these heroes, would back off and give Ennis more of a break.  Not saying he isn't loved-
but it's like everybody has an agenda that it's all Ennis fault- he wouldn't join the gay liberation movement and move to San Francisco
with Jack, there to be totally free. Give him a break.  Maybe he was more advanced than given credit for.
   Oh, yeah-aintfooling-am picketting your house through cyberspace with my sign: "Ennis would too bottom!"  If the neighbors are
annoyed-will stop.                    Tony.

It could be very well be termed paralysis -- or partial paralysis, at least.  In the sex scenes, we do see a certain indecisiveness, followed by forcefulness -- as if the burden was temporarily lifted.

The image that comes to mind here is the SNIT, where we see Ennis almost motionless, while Jack does his will.  He is on the verge of clamming up, and keeps his eyes shut, as if he is afraid of what he will see.  Still, he does not actively resist, and therefore jack takes this as a kind of encouragement. 

So one can see it at that, although one can draw a 1 to 1 correlation with the concept of equilibrium.

[Tony]

    Am returning to that scene-the confrontation.   What DOES Ennis say when he cracks up, near to losing his mind?

      "It's because of you I'm like this...ain't got nothin...am nobody..."


   There is nothing said about turning gay, or how frequently they would meet.  For Ennis, it was that his whole life revolved around the
love he had for Jack, and all Jack could talk about, seemingly, was more frequent sex.

     Ennis is saying his life has been paralyzed.  And not by secret gay trysts.  By love that he can separate from the sex, but which Jack
can't.

     Again, Ennis found more than the shirts in Jack's boyhood room.  He found the carved toy cowboy.  Jack wanted to BE one of them,
and he wanted to HAVE one of them.  He got one---Ennis, and did right by  him.  But things being what they were, Ennis ended up as
immobile as the toy.  And he could not break free not because of not being able to accept who he was.  He knew who he was.
He was unable to break free because he never had the full, complete certainty of being loved until the shirts.  And so-paralysis.

  If he'd been certain he was loved, there never would have been the scene with the shirts.  We should listen to Ennis more.
He ain't got nothing----maybe he was saying he wasn't sure he even had Jack.
   Tpe, thanks for seeing some of what am growling about.  You have a knack for understanding a point of view and then making it
wobble a little less.         Tony.

[lancecowboy]

    [...]
    Ennis HAD come to terms with his need for Jack, which included the sexual, but which was so much more--companionship, being
completely accepted, as he was, by one other human being.  As for his being in the closet, bull crap---he had a practical understanding
he couldn't change the world as it was out there, so he was discreet.  That he had come to terms with his sexuality with Jack is very
evident in his patient, extremely mature, and almost casual hearing-out of Jack's father's words: "Brokeback Mountain--I know where
that is.."  Read that-- I know what that is and about you and my son.  Ennis doesn't cover up or protest at the coded, telegraphed
words from Twist, Sr.,---but calmly and TOLERANTLY accepts them.  This, then, is a man who isn't ashamed.  In turmoil, yes, but never
ashamed.

Hi, Tony, I realize you may be just reacting to what you felt, but I think you need to remember that by the kitchen scene you described above, Ennis had gone through the transformation triggered by the scene with Cassie. You can tell from Heath's great acting, that the Ennis who arrived at Lightning Flat is more open, more at ease with himself and with the world. He didn't fidget like the young Ennis, or brood like the Ennis who missed Jack but didn't want to miss Jack.
He was calm, confident, and most important of all, he felt complete to me. I think his acceptance of his own love for Jack by this time, allow his true self to come out from behind the wall. He still had a wall, but at least he made a door by this time. That's why he can act on his need to find out what happened.

[...]

Jack had gone on to be successful, financially, and had a larger social life-Jack wasn't
paralyzed-he was going all over the place.   But notice what Ennis says in the confrontation scene---it's because of you I'm like this--
(and he doesn't mean--gay).  He says- he ain't nobody, he's got nothing- all because of Jack.  Hell of an accusation.  Didn't say
anything about sex. Said everything about personal decline and, if you will,---paralysis.

I disagree with your assessment that Jack had gone on to be successful, financially or other wise. Jack felt, rightly or wrongly, that he would always be considered the hanger-on, the one who was the f#@kup who couldn't make it in the rodeo, and married rich - the term gold-digger may not apply, but it sure feels like it to Jack. If he ever forgets it, his father-in-law would be there to remind him. Part of the scene at the Thanksgiving dinner was, in a way, Jack's liberation, to stand up, to rise up, and finally say, I raised a good son, I was a good husband to your daughter (even though I was unfaithful to her, but that's besides the point), and I was a good salesman in your company. You will give me the respect I deserve in my own home. That was LONG overdue, and why Laureen smiled and acknowledge it to their son, and even her mother kept quiet. As I said, as Rudy said, we need to stand up to bullies. I was so glad to see Jack finally did it. The hospital scene was what drove him to Ennis. IMO.

Ennis on the other hand, gave of himself to Jack, even though he didn't accept Jack's proposal the first time. He quit his jobs to be with Jack, he drove his horses so they can ride the mountain trails together. He borrowed a friends cabin... If Jack persisted and found ways to convince Ennis, I have no doubt that Ennis would eventually relent. However, it seems to be that Jack also wanted his cake and eat it. He wasn't prepared to leave the nice comfortable rich life he had, the freedom to go off to Mexico or where ever. If he really tried, I would be surprised that he could not convince Ennis to at least visit Lightning Flat, then slowly work his way to get Ennis to help out around the ranch, and eventually get him to accept the idea of living together. It didn't happen, partly because Jack was also ambivalent about leaving Laureen. Sexless it may be, their marriage still had its perks.

[...]
Sometimes I wish people who love both of these heroes, would back off and give Ennis more of a break.  Not saying he isn't loved-
but it's like everybody has an agenda that it's all Ennis fault- he wouldn't join the gay liberation movement and move to San Francisco
with Jack, there to be totally free. Give him a break.  Maybe he was more advanced than given credit for.
   Oh, yeah-aintfooling-am picketting your house through cyberspace with my sign: "Ennis would too bottom!"  If the neighbors are
annoyed-will stop.                    Tony.

I don't know if they are my hero, but they are certainly loved, to certain extent. The movie, I definitely love to no end. And what's seems to be the obsession with bottom or top. Who cares, as long as they love each other. Sex is meaningless without love, top or bottom.

[lancecowboy]

It could be very well be termed paralysis -- or partial paralysis, at least.  In the sex scenes, we do see a certain indecisiveness, followed by forcefulness -- as if the burden was temporarily lifted.

The image that comes to mind here is the SNIT, where we see Ennis almost motionless, while Jack does his will.  He is on the verge of clamming up, and keeps his eyes shut, as if he is afraid of what he will see.  Still, he does not actively resist, and therefore jack takes this as a kind of encouragement. 

So one can see it at that, although one can draw a 1 to 1 correlation with the concept of equilibrium.

I am sorry, guys, but I totally disagree with this paralysis equilibrium interpretation.

I don't see Ennis as paralyzed by his fear. He simply felt powerless to change the world. He didn't know that he was suppose to change the world, only his own response to it.

And I find it interesting that you both thought Ennis was paralyzed in the sex scenes, or at least SNIT. To me, Ennis was experiencing the most transcending experience in his life during SNIT, even better than FNIT. He was surrendering not only to Jack, but to his own feelings, to accept that what he felt was what he longed for all those years, to be held, to be touched, to be comforted, to be touched not only physically, but more important, emotionally. His soul was open and trembling. I loved his grasping, with his eyes closed, the feel of Jack... It was like for the first time, his inner sight was open, to the possibility of the joy of two souls together. In a way, this is what great sex is all about. It is not about role playing, top or bottom, or even the physicality of the act. It is what was felt.

And let us not forget about Jack. To be needed, appreciated, like that...was probably the first time ever for Jack. In spite of all the sex that he did or did not have (with Jack's bravado, I suspect he is more virtuous than he let on), Jack was blown away (no pun intended) by the experience with Ennis, not because they did any particular sex act, but because he felt through Ennis, the joy and ecstasy of sex/love when two souls merge.

Paralysis? I cannot see that apply to anything in the movie. Not even the old man in Lightning Flat. Look a little deeper than the physical surface and I think we all agree that the movie is moving and passionate.

Just my humble and probably naive opinion.

[Tony]

      Dammit, Lance, we are getting, scholarly, like a graduate studies program----that will send the other Brokies running to the ya-ha,
fun & games sites.  It will also force us to think, which is----woik!!!!  But there should be a place for this and, if that's here, we should make
no apologies.  Your responses were reasoned and articulate-thanks, even for disagreement.  We'll never get anywhere if we don't have
different points of view.  We'd be like the Borg, on Star Trek.
     Wasn't trying for a working theory on Ennis that covers all-am trying, and I admit it, to undermine the standard theory that it's all
about Ennis being repressed gay and unable to acccept who he is.  And if only he'd come out of the closet there'd be a happy ending.
Too pat, too cute, too politically correct, and were it true, this story is beautiful but shallow and will vanish.  Am saying there's more
going on, and this love-story, through that tension, will be there for the ages.

     About picketting aintfoolin---no, Lance, we all understand love is more than who is top or bottom---that's just horseplay around the
water cooler.   We get serious here, then collapse into frivolity.   Hmmm-I HOPE she knows I was kidding----for all I know, she's let the
dogs out and put the shotgun by the door.  Never know about Brokies--might have  hit a raw nerve.  Nah---she's cool.
    Well, that's all-thanks for the reasoned, careful response.     Tony.

[tpe]

I disagree with your assessment that Jack had gone on to be successful, financially or other wise. Jack felt, rightly or wrongly, that he would always be considered the hanger-on, the one who was the f#@kup who couldn't make it in the rodeo, and married rich - the term gold-digger may not apply, but it sure feels like it to Jack. If he ever forgets it, his father-in-law would be there to remind him. Part of the scene at the Thanksgiving dinner was, in a way, Jack's liberation, to stand up, to rise up, and finally say, I raised a good son, I was a good husband to your daughter (even though I was unfaithful to her, but that's besides the point), and I was a good salesman in your company. You will give me the respect I deserve in my own home. That was LONG overdue, and why Laureen smiled and acknowledge it to their son, and even her mother kept quiet. As I said, as Rudy said, we need to stand up to bullies. I was so glad to see Jack finally did it. The hospital scene was what drove him to Ennis. IMO.

Ennis on the other hand, gave of himself to Jack, even though he didn't accept Jack's proposal the first time. He quit his jobs to be with Jack, he drove his horses so they can ride the mountain trails together. He borrowed a friends cabin... If Jack persisted and found ways to convince Ennis, I have no doubt that Ennis would eventually relent. However, it seems to be that Jack also wanted his cake and eat it. He wasn't prepared to leave the nice comfortable rich life he had, the freedom to go off to Mexico or where ever. If he really tried, I would be surprised that he could not convince Ennis to at least visit Lightning Flat, then slowly work his way to get Ennis to help out around the ranch, and eventually get him to accept the idea of living together. It didn't happen, partly because Jack was also ambivalent about leaving Laureen. Sexless it may be, their marriage still had its perks.

I do agree that there was always the underlying insecurity in Jack's situation -- I think this is why Jack lovwed Ennis, because Ennis loved him for what he truly was.

I don't really know if Ennis would have ever relented while Jack lived.   Right before Jack's death, perhaps there was a movement for the better, but the implication is that nothing really changed much. I think it took something irreversible (i.e., jack's death) to bring Ennis to realize what he had lost.

 

[tpe]

I am sorry, guys, but I totally disagree with this paralysis equilibrium interpretation.

I don't see Ennis as paralyzed by his fear. He simply felt powerless to change the world. He didn't know that he was suppose to change the world, only his own response to it.

But isn't this a form of paralysis?  After all, so many people set out to change their world against all odds, and some indeed succeed.

Of course, Ennis is a true anti-hero in this regard -- in that by his very unheroic qualities, he becomes a great tragic figure. 

Jack certainly dreamed of changing his world, and perhaps was in the process of acting on it right before his death.  In the case of Jack, however, dreams pretty much remained dreams.

Finally, I do believe that it was fear that kept Ennis from changing -- I think this was encapsulated beautifully in the episode where we hear the story of Earl and Rich.  The implication is clear: if they tried to go against their world openly, as Jack had proposed, then they would end up dead.

And I find it interesting that you both thought Ennis was paralyzed in the sex scenes, or at least SNIT. To me, Ennis was experiencing the most transcending experience in his life during SNIT, even better than FNIT. He was surrendering not only to Jack, but to his own feelings, to accept that what he felt was what he longed for all those years, to be held, to be touched, to be comforted, to be touched not only physically, but more important, emotionally. His soul was open and trembling. I loved his grasping, with his eyes closed, the feel of Jack... It was like for the first time, his inner sight was open, to the possibility of the joy of two souls together. In a way, this is what great sex is all about. It is not about role playing, top or bottom, or even the physicality of the act. It is what was felt.

And let us not forget about Jack. To be needed, appreciated, like that...was probably the first time ever for Jack. In spite of all the sex that he did or did not have (with Jack's bravado, I suspect he is more virtuous than he let on), Jack was blown away (no pun intended) by the experience with Ennis, not because they did any particular sex act, but because he felt through Ennis, the joy and ecstasy of sex/love when two souls merge.

Paralysis? I cannot see that apply to anything in the movie. Not even the old man in Lightning Flat. Look a little deeper than the physical surface and I think we all agree that the movie is moving and passionate.

Just my humble and probably naive opinion.

This is an interesting point of view.  For me, Jack reassuring Ennis during the SNIT ("Its alright" and perhaps even "I'm sorry") would seem to suggest that Ennis was barely on the cusp of giving in to his desires.  We also seem to see this when it was Jack who steadies Ennis's head with his hand, as he brings his own face closer for the kiss.

But perhaps Jack was reassuring himself as much as Ennis?  Or perhaps Ennis was speechless only because he was by then, as you said, transcendent?

Interesting point of view.  I had never considered it this way before.

[lancecowboy]

      Dammit, Lance, we are getting, scholarly, like a graduate studies program----that will send the other Brokies running to the ya-ha,
fun & games sites.  It will also force us to think, which is----woik!!!!  But there should be a place for this and, if that's here, we should make
no apologies.  Your responses were reasoned and articulate-thanks, even for disagreement.  We'll never get anywhere if we don't have
different points of view.  We'd be like the Borg, on Star Trek.
     Wasn't trying for a working theory on Ennis that covers all-am trying, and I admit it, to undermine the standard theory that it's all
about Ennis being repressed gay and unable to acccept who he is.  And if only he'd come out of the closet there'd be a happy ending.
Too pat, too cute, too politically correct, and were it true, this story is beautiful but shallow and will vanish.  Am saying there's more
going on, and this love-story, through that tension, will be there for the ages.

     About picketting aintfoolin---no, Lance, we all understand love is more than who is top or bottom---that's just horseplay around the
water cooler.   We get serious here, then collapse into frivolity.   Hmmm-I HOPE she knows I was kidding----for all I know, she's let the
dogs out and put the shotgun by the door.  Never know about Brokies--might have  hit a raw nerve.  Nah---she's cool.
    Well, that's all-thanks for the reasoned, careful response.     Tony.

  Thanks, Tony. I'd never thought anyone would tell me I fit in a graduate studies level program. But hey, I am just following the lead Manhattangirl with her brilliant analysis, and the rest of you with all your wise observation and interpretation. I am glad that I can contribute to the discussion.
You and aintfooling got me thinking about Jack, and I really think his own ambivalent about his own marriage contributed to their spending twenty years apart. I don't think Ennis was the ONLY reason, though certainly he was the start of it, when he refused the proposal at first. But if Jack persisted that night, I can see Ennis changing his mind. So, Jack might have seen the wisdom of Ennis' fear and caution back in '67. However, with the liberation in '70s and '80s, I don't know. Jack is more than just the superficial bravado that he projects, or the charmer that is on the surface. Deep down, he is just as complex, and imperfect, with his own faults. To put him on a pedestal is unfair to him and to Ennis, who loved him in spite of it all, even after twenty years.

[keren_b]

Ennis's sex life. My fav subject. Ennis has a quiet, unspoiled charm  which is a asset toward attracting women as well as like Jack, men too. He's so sexy cool with the cowboy hat pulled down low, a shy smile to melt anybody's heart, and in the case in FNIT speed it up. Either he's very good or too gulble the latter I think not. For a while Ennis was having his cake, and eating it too. He is the only one in the film who beds his wife ,lover, and girlfriend. The good thing is , he's very choosy. Those few sex partners that he *let in* all found him suitable to settle down with and have  a life with him.

Each sexual relationship he had ,satisfied a need or purpose for him outside of Jack though Jack was the purpose, imo.  Alma nor Cassie had any idea what kind of man they were falling in love with. Didn't talk much, so did'nt express himself well, but that, they could live with. responsible and orderly, he was,and good with children. Can be an ornery challenge to anybody, but inside was a very caring,thoughtful,loving  person.

But he had a secret. A secret longing for another man. A need for Jack. Not just the sex, but whatever makes up Jack. Physically, emotionally ,and mentally, Jack has become part of who he is. and he is a part of Jack. They are bonded together , almost as one, melded.  He was very possessive toward Jack and went into a jealous rage over Jack's business in Mexico. To feel this close to some one, the sex life with Jack for him must have been mindblowing! ( I am thinking of the passage in the SS, where he "wrung it out" , thinking  about it. ( "but it's nuthin  like this" )   ( sex with women) I imagine there ,alot of care to please each other+ Ennis is on a journey of discovery, and Jack probably made it fun and playful with him  once they found a comfortable place with each other. . never saw it with Alma. I think he felt most alive in Jack's arms.

Yeah I think his sex drive was lower than Jack's  when they were apart, , but when the time came to be with Jack, I imagine even  Jack had a hard time keeping up! Just my opinion.

Am a bit behind on this thread. Aintfoolin' that was a beautiful post - and you touched some very important issues there. First of all, that the longing for Jack was so much more than just sex. Ennis was in love with Jack, and therefore he craved not only his body and his touch, but his company. The way I saw it, sleeping with Alma (and later Cassie) was a more mechanical act - a means to satisfy his sexual hunger, since he couldn't have Jack, and with Alma, filling a husband's duty. But I also imagine that the sex with Jack was totally different, deeply from the heart with true love involved, and therefore he felt most alive in Jack's arms, like you said so beautifully.

Which brings me to your second point - The fact that Ennis's sex drive wasn't any lower than Jack's - at least not when they were together. "I wrung it out a hundred times thinking about you" just shows how hungry Ennis was for the sex with Jack. And I do agree with you that whenever they met, they probably couldn't get their hands off each other. AP hinted to that in the ss: " One thing never changed: the brilliant charge of their infrequent couplings was darkened by the sense of time flying, never enough time, never enough." These two men had so little time together and when they were together, they made sure to make the most out of it. Because they knew they're going to live without for another half a year or so, until next time. I think this is a very important point in their relationship, one that was obvious to me in the book but less in the movie. Which is why I feel we needed to see more moments of affection between them in the later years after the reunion. I'm not asking for explicit sex scenes here - that was not Ang Lee's style, and Thomas gave a very interesting explanation for the vagueness of FNIT and SNIT, plus some things are maybe better left to our imagination. But just little hints here and there, like Ennis wrapping his arm around Jack, and Jack sliding his hand between Ennis's legs like they did in the ss. Little things to show this "brilliant charge" between them and how starved they both have been for it. Just my opinion.

[keren_b]

    Am returning to that scene-the confrontation.   What DOES Ennis say when he cracks up, near to losing his mind?

      "It's because of you I'm like this...ain't got nothin...am nobody..."


   There is nothing said about turning gay, or how frequently they would meet.  For Ennis, it was that his whole life revolved around the
love he had for Jack, and all Jack could talk about, seemingly, was more frequent sex.

I'm sorry Tony but I have to disagree here - I interpreted Jack's statement in a totally different way. I think that by saying "I'm not you, I can't make it on a few high altitude f***s once or twice a year" Jack wasn't demanding more frequent sex, he was saying that what he needed from Ennis was so much more than just sex. He wanted to really be with Ennis, to have the sweet life with him. But he felt that Ennis didn't want that. "we could a had a good life together, a real good life, have us a place of our own - but you didn't want it Ennis!" And Ennis had to know that, because Jack said more than once that he wanted a life with Ennis, he was the one who suggested that Ennis moved to Texas. Maybe this is Jack's insecurity and fear, that his whole life revolved around his love for Ennis but maybe for Ennis the infrequent sex was enough. I think Ennis had to be blind not to see that Jack wanted more than sex, that he wanted the whole thing - but Ennis just didn't think it was possible.

[Tony]

  Hi, keren-b!   Your posts were great.  As for disagreeing with mine, first, I did feel that sentence that you highlighted was kind of weak
and I almost un-typed it.  Didn't, and you found it anyway. But second, we may not be in disagreement in that you spoke to Jack's
perspective and all that he was trying to say, which, of course, Ennis would be a fool not to understand.  But I did use the word
"seemingly" with reference to what Ennis could have heard.  And Jack was complaining about frequency.
    Am always heavily influenced by the scene where he discovers the shirts, for I believe  that is when he truly figured out just how greatly
he was loved in return.  Which means---he wasn't sure before!!!!  And so everything he had ever heard from Jack before was never really
fully understood.  By the way, isn't there some theory about guys having right-brain, left-brain communication problems which women
don't have?  Maybe that's why so many women seem to want to just jump into the movie and tell the two guys-you love each other--
work it out!  But we dysfunctional males see Ennis and Jack and go--yup, hard to say--I love you. And be believed.
    Please keep posting, when you can- you have a keen eye for narrowing things down to what's important.   Tony.

[keren_b]

  Hi, keren-b!   Your posts were great.  As for disagreeing with mine, first, I did feel that sentence that you highlighted was kind of weak
and I almost un-typed it.  Didn't, and you found it anyway. But second, we may not be in disagreement in that you spoke to Jack's
perspective and all that he was trying to say, which, of course, Ennis would be a fool not to understand.  But I did use the word
"seemingly" with reference to what Ennis could have heard.  And Jack was complaining about frequency.
    Am always heavily influenced by the scene where he discovers the shirts, for I believe  that is when he truly figured out just how greatly
he was loved in return.  Which means---he wasn't sure before!!!!  And so everything he had ever heard from Jack before was never really
fully understood.  By the way, isn't there some theory about guys having right-brain, left-brain communication problems which women
don't have?  Maybe that's why so many women seem to want to just jump into the movie and tell the two guys-you love each other--
work it out!  But we dysfunctional males see Ennis and Jack and go--yup, hard to say--I love you. And be believed.
    Please keep posting, when you can- you have a keen eye for narrowing things down to what's important.   Tony.

Thank you Tony, I enjoy this discussion. And you really made me think here, with your observation about the shirts scene. I agree that in that scene, Ennis was finally hit by the knowledge of how much Jack had loved him right from the start. So you made a very good point by saying that maybe he didn't fully understand until then how much he was loved, even though Jack made it clear more than once that he wanted a life with him. When I think about it now, maybe Ennis was just paralyzed by his fears every time Jack talked about having a life together - all he could think about was Earl in the ditch, and how impossible it would be. And he also didn't allow himself to think about the fact that Jack loved him because of what it meant. He couldn't allow himself to think about that if he wanted to keep telling himself that he wasn't queer.

[Tony]

      Hi, keren-b.  Was with you until your last sentence: "...if he wanted to keep telling himself he wasn't queer".

    There are two main theories about Ennis' sexuality.  The majority says repressed gay.  The minority says straight guy so lonely he
fell off a cliff into deep love.  Both should be tolerated, and it's been clear I follow the minority opinion.  Can't be settled here---we
each bring to this film our definitions, fears (and it is very threatening to many women that a straight guy could love one man, have no
generic interest in other men, and stay straight) and hopes---for more tolerance for gays, or, for human liberation free of absolutes
(if you do it, you're gay or bi-).  We each also see the film through our own experiences.  So we will have different ways of climbing that
mountain, Brokeback, and what we expect to find at the top.  If one sees a clear vista off one way, so too can someone see something
else, looking the other way.  And in every direction, there is freedom and beauty.

   But, back to your final sentence.  There is the slightest nuance, or maybe not so slight----that Ennis thought queer was bad.
I would like to make the distinction between queer was bad and queer was dangerous.  It might make for a huge difference.

   So.    1) yeah, Ennis says: "you know I ain't queer."  But in the film, the word is not said with a snarl-it's just the only word he
              knew to use and he used it without a leer or a sneer.

           2) when describing Earl and Rich, he had NO contempt for them.  Please think back.  He showed grudging admiration---
              "they was tough old birds..." , and clearly zero approval of what was done to them.  He hated what was done to them.

           3) "this thing" that came over them, could come to get them killed.  Fear.  Not self-loathing.

           4) Whatever Annie Proulx evolved later, in the SS, she has Ennis falling for Jack over their ability to keep company, to have
              conversations (very hard for lonely Ennis) so that as he rides off to where he could "paw the white out of the moon."
              Show me some sex in any of that.  She describes a man falling off the deep end because he had finally found...a friend.
              It is later that she has him sexed up over Jack.  Before---it's the loneliness fulfilled, with no mention of sexual desire. Zero.
              Keren-b----that supports the love coming first and, adjustments, later.

          5) As Ennis faced off with Twist, Sr., he showed no shame for Jack's father's hinting he knew what Brokeback Mountain was.
             This is not a man filled with  self-loathing about his having had sex with a male.

  Back to the distinction am trying to make.  Ennis wasn't having any troubles owning up to being "queer", as you say.  He knew what
he was, whether correct or not in his self-definition by other people's terms--he knew who he was.  It was fear, raw fear of what happened
to Earl and Rich, not inability to define himself, to himself.  He'd already done that-others don't find his definition convenient or possible.
I do.     But have every respect for those who don't.  Peace and love--Tony.

[aintfoolin]

Tony, I agree with this , I feel Ennis came to terms with who he was evidenced in the reunion scenes when he said " aint no reins on this one" "this one" relating to Jack and his feelings for him. I see no greater example than this other than his behavior leading up to seeing Jack exiting that truck in the reunion scene. He did'nt have to answer that postcard from Jack if he felt the feelings did'nt exist anymore. No, he did'nt feel Alma had *cured* him of whatever ailed him. She clearly was not the remedy. On Brokeback, I think he went through an awakening process of what had been within him since the days of Earl and Rich. They had an impact on him in a sense of relation to what was inside him from childhood. I don't think he ever expected these feelings to ever surface. The stage was set, he found himself in the right place at the right time with the right person under the right circumstances. The setting, isolated and ideal for him to *feel* love for once in his life. They connected, Jack just being Jack found Ennis drawn to him. He knew it, He knew Ennis was having problems dealing but at the same time felt Ennis's longing for him. You know Tony, that Ennis would have never made that first move in FNIT, but I have no doubt that wanted to. Thank goodness Jack was'nt that modest. No one came out and just said verbally " I love you, "I want you" but only little unspoken signals, suspicions and gut feelings. Obviously Jack was reading Ennis like a well thumbed novel, but he still in the end took a risk that I just could'nt see Ennis taking. Jack only made sure the door was open wide enough for Ennis AND  his fears to walk through. Once he got Ennis to walk through, he made sure the door remained wide open for Ennis to further explore what was inside. After SNIT he knew he could never give this up, not completely.  Did Ennis  ever look back? sure he did, even tried to *marry it away* Expended alot of useless energy trying to stand it instead of fixing it. And where did it get him? "nowhere" and nuthin.  I feel he felt at that moment that HIS sacrifices were'nt being appreciated either. What he had done throughout his life, what he had givin up, what he had turned down who he had hurt all because of the need for Jack. Think he was feeling a little underappreciated himself especially when ya throw in the Mexico business.
Some people are convinced it's all Ennis's fault that Jack didn't get what he wanted, that sweet life, but as Jack, Ennis had limits too. as Jack did, he gave all he could give.  There's nothing wrong with that . I've also said and felt that Jack underestimated Ennis's need for him. Don't feel that as long as Jack had breath in his body and walked the earth alive and well , Ennis could never completely let Jack go again. Jack simply had to give the ultimatum imo. Sometimes I feel strongly that Jack could have had a ranch of his own. It was a place to start. It was the one thing Jack did not do that he could have. That way, Ennis could see the reality of what Jack wanted. Ennis could visit Jack and stay as long as he felt comfortable, maybe even led to that sweet life. Does'nt matter How the rode leads to get to where he wanted he and Ennis to be,  the status quo was'nt working, so puttin some action behind those words in the form of doing it for himself instead of waiting 20  years for Ennis to fix it by only suggesting Ennis live with him.  This scenario would also go a long way in building confidence in his own self. The it is He who would be in the position of choosing a full life, be it with Randall, or whom ever., but no one cn tell me that if Ennis had the choice, line house or JACK'S ranch, I think I have pretty good idea which house he'd like to spend time in the most. Only he'd be seeing a reality, not just words. My take.

 BTW I see your picket sign friend via The World Wide Web.  . I hope you can see mine.  Betwwen you and me, like Ennis once I make up my mind, I rarely budge.  Bottoms up pal ...and of course . and after SNIT ummm who was pulled down on "top"? Need I say more? ;)Thanks.

[keren_b]

      Hi, keren-b.  Was with you until your last sentence: "...if he wanted to keep telling himself he wasn't queer".

    There are two main theories about Ennis' sexuality.  The majority says repressed gay.  The minority says straight guy so lonely he
fell off a cliff into deep love.  Both should be tolerated, and it's been clear I follow the minority opinion.  Can't be settled here---we
each bring to this film our definitions, fears (and it is very threatening to many women that a straight guy could love one man, have no
generic interest in other men, and stay straight) and hopes---for more tolerance for gays, or, for human liberation free of absolutes
(if you do it, you're gay or bi-).  We each also see the film through our own experiences.  So we will have different ways of climbing that
mountain, Brokeback, and what we expect to find at the top.  If one sees a clear vista off one way, so too can someone see something
else, looking the other way.  And in every direction, there is freedom and beauty.

   But, back to your final sentence.  There is the slightest nuance, or maybe not so slight----that Ennis thought queer was bad.
I would like to make the distinction between queer was bad and queer was dangerous.  It might make for a huge difference.

   So.    1) yeah, Ennis says: "you know I ain't queer."  But in the film, the word is not said with a snarl-it's just the only word he
              knew to use and he used it without a leer or a sneer.

           2) when describing Earl and Rich, he had NO contempt for them.  Please think back.  He showed grudging admiration---
              "they was tough old birds..." , and clearly zero approval of what was done to them.  He hated what was done to them.

           3) "this thing" that came over them, could come to get them killed.  Fear.  Not self-loathing.

           4) Whatever Annie Proulx evolved later, in the SS, she has Ennis falling for Jack over their ability to keep company, to have
              conversations (very hard for lonely Ennis) so that as he rides off to where he could "paw the white out of the moon."
              Show me some sex in any of that.  She describes a man falling off the deep end because he had finally found...a friend.
              It is later that she has him sexed up over Jack.  Before---it's the loneliness fulfilled, with no mention of sexual desire. Zero.
              Keren-b----that supports the love coming first and, adjustments, later.

          5) As Ennis faced off with Twist, Sr., he showed no shame for Jack's father's hinting he knew what Brokeback Mountain was.
             This is not a man filled with  self-loathing about his having had sex with a male.

  Back to the distinction am trying to make.  Ennis wasn't having any troubles owning up to being "queer", as you say.  He knew what
he was, whether correct or not in his self-definition by other people's terms--he knew who he was.  It was fear, raw fear of what happened
to Earl and Rich, not inability to define himself, to himself.  He'd already done that-others don't find his definition convenient or possible.
I do.     But have every respect for those who don't.  Peace and love--Tony.

Hello again Tony (and you can just call me Keren, without the "b"  )

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one... because I do think that Ennis couldn't accept his sexuality. I can't say whether Ennis was gay or not, like you pointed out there are different theories about that, so lets put it aside for a moment. But whatever the "truth" was, I think it's obvious that Ennis saw himself as straight, with the exception of his feelings for Jack. I'm not sure that he thought being gay was bad, I think it was mainly out of fear. I agree with you that there was no contempt in the way he talked about Earl and Rich. But contrary to your opinion, I don't think he was able to accept the thought that he might be gay, and I base my opinion on a number of things:

1) the "you know I ain't queer" comment. I'm not saying that it was said with contempt, just that Ennis was stating a fact. He didn't see himself as gay.

2) In the ss they have a conversation at the Siesta motel and Ennis says: "I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was - ? I know I ain't. I mean here we both got wives and kids, right?" Again, four years after Brokeback Ennis still insists that he's not "queer".

3) In Jack's recollection of the dozy embrace Annie Proulx wrote: "Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held". I interpret from that that Ennis did have problems owning up to the fact that he had feelings for a man, that he was having a relationship with a man.

4) The "boys like you" comment. By saying to Jack "I know what they got in Mexico for boys like you" (and not "boys like us") Ennis distinguishes himself from Jack, as if saying "boys like you, not me. I'm not like you."

I do think that something changed in Ennis towards the end, after Jack's death. But I believe that up until then, it was essential for him to believe that he wasn't gay and he couldn't accept the thought that he might be. Whatever the reasons were, fear or self loathing, he just couldn't deal with this possibility. Just my opinion of course, everybody is entitled to have their own.

[lancecowboy]

Hello again Tony (and you can just call me Keren, without the "b"  )

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one... because I do think that Ennis couldn't accept his sexuality. I can't say whether Ennis was gay or not, like you pointed out there are different theories about that, so lets put it aside for a moment. But whatever the "truth" was, I think it's obvious that Ennis saw himself as straight, with the exception of his feelings for Jack. I'm not sure that he thought being gay was bad, I think it was mainly out of fear. I agree with you that there was no contempt in the way he talked about Earl and Rich. But contrary to your opinion, I don't think he was able to accept the thought that he might be gay, and I base my opinion on a number of things:

1) the "you know I ain't queer" comment. I'm not saying that it was said with contempt, just that Ennis was stating a fact. He didn't see himself as gay.

2) In the ss they have a conversation at the Siesta motel and Ennis says: "I was sittin up here all that time tryin to figure out if I was - ? I know I ain't. I mean here we both got wives and kids, right?" Again, four years after Brokeback Ennis still insists that he's not "queer".

3) In Jack's recollection of the dozy embrace Annie Proulx wrote: "Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held". I interpret from that that Ennis did have problems owning up to the fact that he had feelings for a man, that he was having a relationship with a man.

4) The "boys like you" comment. By saying to Jack "I know what they got in Mexico for boys like you" (and not "boys like us") Ennis distinguishes himself from Jack, as if saying "boys like you, not me. I'm not like you."

I do think that something changed in Ennis towards the end, after Jack's death. But I believe that up until then, it was essential for him to believe that he wasn't gay and he couldn't accept the thought that he might be. Whatever the reasons were, fear or self loathing, he just couldn't deal with this possibility. Just my opinion of course, everybody is entitled to have their own.

Hi, Keren, thanks for pointing out all these. I agree with you and appreciate your detailed explanation. I haven't read the short story yet, and from what I have seen of the excerpts in this forum, I will just have to go out and get it!  I think the dozy embrace recollection is so revealing...I never thought of it like that...that Ennis couldn't face Jack in an embrace, just like the awkward moment in their reunion, until that kiss...

I agree with you that Ennis didn't hate being gay or himself. He simply never imagined himself as gay. It was never part of his self-image. And not until that night in the diner, eating apple pie, watching Cassie falling apart, hearing her say, "Girls don't fall in love with fun." I don't know at what point in the short story was Ennis transformed from struggling with this thing with no reins, to "I love Jack" but this was one of the most moving moments to me in the movie. Ennis became one of the boys like us, part of the human race, out of the fortress he built, ready to join with Jack, to live a sweet life, just like this, always...

 :\'(

Thanks,

[welshwitch]

The ss describes what we call FNIT and then says that their sexual encounters continued through the summer, but doesn't give any details, except that they happened at night in the tent, outside in the sun and near the fire in the evening.The reunion scene is described much as it happens oin the movie;the motel scene is much longer in the ss, with details of Jack's childhood relationship with his father.The other mention of their sex lives comes in the 1983 section of the ss, merely to say that it continued to be as intense as ever - this is a day or so before the final confrontation.

In fact the movie expands on the ss, since SNIT is pure invention in relation to the original text. It also adds the tenderness that is missing in the ss.

[keren_b]

Peace Tony - I've said in the past that I think this is a wonderful, fascinating thread, and you raised some very interesting topics here, so thank you again for the discussion and your contribution. I do hope that this thread stays active, and that more members will share their opinions about the sex scenes and whether they should be changed in any way.

Since our discussion here expanded a little beyond the original question, to deal with the boys' sexuality in general, I thought some of you would be interested to read some of the older threads that dealt with those questions. A lot of people here have great ideas to contribute, and it's always good to see old threads coming back to life. And you're right Tony, we should explore these ideas further.

Here are some links for those of you who's interested:

was Ennis gay?
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=832.0

Jack's sexuality: A discussion
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=5981.0

Jack and Ennis -- bisexual or gay or human?
http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1340.0

There are more threads discussing spesific scenes if you look in the "characters quotes & scenes" board. Please don't hesitate to share your opinion even if the subject has been discussed already by others. There are threads for almost every aspect of the movie, so we can discuss everything we want and still keep each discussion on topic.

Thank you again everybody for making this place so interesting.

[Daniblondy]

Would I change the Sex Scene/s??

Yes make it "Lighter" as I have just started making Fanvideo's it's sooooooo freaking Dark

Im a Supernatural Watcher and I thought that show was Dark but man the Sex Scene I literally have to sit this close to my Computer screen to see it.

I would have liked to have seen more of a Sex Scene after the famous SNIT I mean we get a hint the next morning of them being all playful that something did go on. But I would just liked to have seen a Little Bit more I dunno maybe one of them taking the other one's pants off but that's me.

I don't really have any complaints about the Sex Scenes with the girls I guess they were approriate during the movie.

I think Jack and Lureen's was more fun/spontanious that Alma and Ennis's.

So that's my 2 Cents

[jackster]

I would have liked to have seen more of a Sex Scene after the famous SNIT, I mean we get a hint the next morning of them being all playful that something did go on. But I would just liked to have seen a Little Bit more I dunno . . . .

Hey Daniblondy, if you're sitting real close to your screen you've probably already noticed this . . but just in case you missed it - Someone posted in a much earlier thread how intrigued they were by the fact that the morning after SNIT, when they're bein' all playful in camp and stuff, that the knees on Ennis's jeans are really dirty. Now I'm sure this just occurred by having to do several "takes" rolling on the ground and stuff. But for those of us with active imaginations there several other ways Ennis could have gotten his knees this dirty . . . .
  

Whoops, here come the censors, gotta' go . . .   

[lancecowboy]

Hey Daniblondy, if you're sitting real close to your screen you've probably already noticed this . . but just in case you missed it - Someone posted in a much earlier thread how intrigued they were by the fact that the morning after SNIT, when they're bein' all playful in camp and stuff, that the knees on Ennis's jeans are really dirty. Now I'm sure this just occurred by having to do several "takes" rolling on the ground and stuff. But for those of us with active imaginations there several other ways Ennis could have gotten his knees this dirty . . . .
  

Whoops, here come the censors, gotta' go . . .   

Jackster!!! Tsk! Tsk! But to be honest, I thought of that, too. And you know that lovable unique highly recognizable cough of his, I don't it's from just smoking either.  Ahem!

[Tony]

      Can't believe it----you guys are actually talking about.......sex.  I mean, what kind of joint is this?  Thought it was a graduate studies
program on the philosophical implications of Jack's grunts.
      Daniblondy, nobody ever went there---upping the lighting.  That's really new.  There is a very strange thread on upping the sound, in
FNIT, where people claim they can hear Jack urging Ennis on in a very, uh, distinctive way.  They claimed if you use earphones you can hear
him saying--well, something more strong, by far, than -"Do it!" 
     Jackster has me worried---if he's correct, there was a lot of attention to detail in the filming, or possibly.....nah.  Had to be careful
detail.  Even so, this would rile Aintfoolin, who insists Ennis wouldn't "bottom", and now she must worry about whether he would do other
matters of some import.
    Lance---what cough?

        Is this going X-rated?  The ladies had wanted sensual scenes in middle age and now someone wants trousers yanked off?
That would be lewd, vulgar, and also.....very, very interesting. (cough, cough).  Dammit, Lance-I"ll never feel mine, or anybody else's
occasional cough is free of any.....implications.  Had to go there, didn't you?             Tony.

[jackster]

Lance---what cough ? . . . .  Dammit, Lance -I"ll never feel mine, or anybody else's occasional cough is free of any.....implications.  Had to go there, didn't you?   Tony.

Here I always thought when they ask you to cough during a physical they was checkin' other stuff . . .  What the hey?

[aintfoolin]

 Hey Tony, Well, only you men would know the implications of the "cough", but just don't sneeze!   How Ennis got his knees dirty is open for discussion,  and wild imagination , ( I can think of two ways ) but, it didn't  come from doing what I insist  he did'nt do.

As for the other thread, don your earphones friend, believe me it's worth hearing. Jack is being careful what he's asking for, but getting it too. Takes this scene to a new level of eroticism.

Finally, " Other matters of imports" are just fine and dandy with me. I have no qualms here, but what really bothers me is somewhere lies 12 unseen takes of FNIT! 13 takes before they got it right and Ang  Lee chose the 7th one. Now THIS  is a matter of importance.  Whole or little pieces I want em! Still waiting for that Director's Cut Mr. Lee. The film is beautifully done as is , but do we have to get Paul Harvey to give us "the rest of the story"? Please, don't get me started.

[lancecowboy]

Sorry, Tony,  , I love Ennis to bits, and nothing he does is wrong in my eyes. My sincere apologies to the ladies, but all I can say is Jackster started it.   

I AM, however, interested in the philosophical implications of Jack's grunts. I'd never thought of upping the sound to hear what Jack was saying. I was too distracted trying to catch the fleeting glimpses of the action in the dark.    Did you notice Ennis always turns off the light with Alma? Reminds him of FNIT?

As for the cough, ahem,  Cassie knew it and recognized it in the diner. That's the lovable recognizable cough I was referring to, that started the whole loving transformation in Ennis. I don't know what you are implying, guys.   

But on a more serious note, do you suppose with Jack going to Mexico and Randall and all, they might catch STD? I know this was back in the free spirit '70s in rural America, but that's also when things start to get nasty. Sorry to put a damper on the .......sex thing.    But got to stay real, you know...

BTW, the way Randall talked to Jack after the dance, sitting out front, offering to go to the cabin after their first meeting, drink some whiskey, and do some fishing, you know...  That phrase "you know" has been repeating in my head for the last few days, and I could not quite place it until this morning. I finally recognized where it came from. It was pregnant with implications. It's what I love about this movie...so rich in detail...I will just have to turn up the stereophonic surround sound in FNIT to hear what Jack says...

You guys are too much ...

      Can't believe it----you guys are actually talking about.......sex.  I mean, what kind of joint is this?  Thought it was a graduate studies
program on the philosophical implications of Jack's grunts.
      Daniblondy, nobody ever went there---upping the lighting.  That's really new.  There is a very strange thread on upping the sound, in
FNIT, where people claim they can hear Jack urging Ennis on in a very, uh, distinctive way.  They claimed if you use earphones you can hear
him saying--well, something more strong, by far, than -"Do it!" 
     Jackster has me worried---if he's correct, there was a lot of attention to detail in the filming, or possibly.....nah.  Had to be careful
detail.  Even so, this would rile Aintfoolin, who insists Ennis wouldn't "bottom", and now she must worry about whether he would do other
matters of some import.
    Lance---what cough?

        Is this going X-rated?  The ladies had wanted sensual scenes in middle age and now someone wants trousers yanked off?
That would be lewd, vulgar, and also.....very, very interesting. (cough, cough).  Dammit, Lance-I"ll never feel mine, or anybody else's
occasional cough is free of any.....implications.  Had to go there, didn't you?             Tony.

[tpe]

Would any of you have strong feelings if they INTRODUCED a sex scene between Ennis and Cassie?

Or how about one between Jack and Randall?

Personally, I can live without either one, although I wonder sometimes how the addition of such sex scenes could have changed the dynamic of the film...


I hope this is NOT exactly OT, because the addition of these scenes may change the way we view the existing ones...