Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?

[tpe]

   Tpe, you have it on target-would it have been as powerful if the casting were different?  Could it ever have been anyone other than
Heath and Jake? IMO, some things are meant to be---converging lines that make for a change in the flow of life, and this was one of those
rare events.  Had to be them.  The pieces had to fit together for this metaphysical interruption of our lives and they were essential parts
of the whole.

I agree with you here Tony.  Anyone else would have changed the entire thing, even if they insisted on greater fidelity to the ss.

[manhattangirl]

Would any of you have strong feelings if they INTRODUCED a sex scene between Ennis and Cassie?

Or how about one between Jack and Randall?

Personally, I can live without either one, although I wonder sometimes how the addition of such sex scenes could have changed the dynamic of the film...


I hope this is NOT exactly OT, because the addition of these scenes may change the way we view the existing ones...

tpe,

Wouldn't a sex scene with Jack and Randall shift that delicate balance of how we view Jack and Ennis. We see them as not one of us,  but  something more than us, a goal that we all seek, we pray and hope for a love that is a force of nature, and can't be control.   A sex scene with Jack and Randall would change the meaning of this love,this is not a night in Mexico, but deliberate attempt at a break from Ennis, an attempt to change this force of nature of that love.    We hold up Jack and Ennis love as something we all seek in our lives,  that if there was sex scene with Jack and Randal it would be threatening element, as if saying "hey they are not so different from us".   

just a thought.

[welshwitch]

Not entirely sure I agre. A " night in Mexico" sex scene would clearly alter one's perceptions of Jack but one with Randall? I don't know. I see Ennis and Jack not as some sort of ideals but as sharing our human qualities. People change and adapt, make compromises and settle for less than they want, which is what I suppose Randxall would be for Jack. It is entirely to feel passionate love for someone, not to be able to translate it into a permanent relationship and so find an alternative which while unsatisfactory may be realisable and necessary.

That said, I think any more sex scenes would spoil the balance of the movie - it's about so much more than the physical.

[lancecowboy]

[...]
Lancecowboy, believe me, yesterday I told to MPJ (ask her please) that I'm really happy for you writting in the forum, 'cause I think you are a very sensitive person and I've cried reading some posts of you, 'cause you are a poet, a wonderful poet. 
[...]

Thank you so much for saying that you cried reading some of my posts, babytammy7. I really did not intend my words to be sad, but I guess a lot of the sadness within had to find an outlet. You are so right that I am a very sensitive person, perhaps too sensitive. Since you are right on all other counts, I will have to agree with you that I must be a wonderful poet, too.   

By in all honesty, I am far from wonderful, and would hardly call myself a poet, although I will say that I make attempts at poetry. It is only because Brokeback Mountain is such an inspiration that you find my words moving. I hope I will fulfill your words, and write more that reflects the loving artistry in the movie, in the story.

And before I get the angry OT sign, let me say that perhaps a sensitively  written sex scene may not distract from the love story, and may add to the tenderness between Ennis and Jack, as the motel dialog scenes do for me. What do you think? How can we make any additional sex scenes more loving without distracting the main and most important message that love is a force of nature?

[manhattangirl]

Not entirely sure I agre. A " night in Mexico" sex scene would clearly alter one's perceptions of Jack but one with Randall? I don't know. I see Ennis and Jack not as some sort of ideals but as sharing our human qualities. People change and adapt, make compromises and settle for less than they want, which is what I suppose Randxall would be for Jack. It is entirely to feel passionate love for someone, not to be able to translate it into a permanent relationship and so find an alternative which while unsatisfactory may be realisable and necessary.

That said, I think any more sex scenes would spoil the balance of the movie - it's about so much more than the physical.

ww,

What you said is so interesting.  For me what makes Jack so human, and so heartbreaking is his trips,  he begs Ennis to save him from this life of wandering the roads, walking into the darkness was enough info for me.   For Jack it was more than just a couple of  high rise f@#ks, it wasn't sex for him but life he begs Ennis for.     Wouldn't the message change to "if you can't be with the one you love, than love the one you're with"?

I certainly agree with your last statement, it's so much more than the physical. 

[lancecowboy]

ww,

What you said is so interesting.  For me what makes Jack so human, and so heartbreaking is his trips,  he begs Ennis to save him from this life of wandering the roads.  For Jack it was more than just a couple of  high rise f@#ks, it wasn't sex for him but life he begs Ennis for.     

I certainly agree with your last statement, it's so much more than the physical. 

You always see so clearly. I never clearly understood Jack's comment about high altitude f#@ks a year. Now I see this is refering to the sweet life. All the long road trips to Jack were down payment for the sweet life. When twenty years of it get nothing but Brokeback Mountain, and at increasingly sparse and difficult frequencies, I can see how frustrated he must be.

Not entirely sure I agre. A " night in Mexico" sex scene would clearly alter one's perceptions of Jack but one with Randall? I don't know. I see Ennis and Jack not as some sort of ideals but as sharing our human qualities. People change and adapt, make compromises and settle for less than they want, which is what I suppose Randxall would be for Jack. It is entirely to feel passionate love for someone, not to be able to translate it into a permanent relationship and so find an alternative which while unsatisfactory may be realisable and necessary.

That said, I think any more sex scenes would spoil the balance of the movie - it's about so much more than the physical.

Although I agree with you, ww, that people change and adapt and make compromises, I most certainly see Ennis and Jack as true love personified. And I think the movie tried, and succeeded, portraying exactly that. To have Jack and Randall in a sex scene, would be to me, like Ennis and Alma, or worse, Jack and Laureen. I am not sure why it would be worse to watch Jack and Laureen have sex, after all they are husband and wife. But the movie is about love, and there is no love between them, nor between Jack and Randall. In my opinion, there is no place for sex without love in this movie, in my humble opinion.

[tpe]

tpe,

Wouldn't a sex scene with Jack and Randall shift that delicate balance of how we view Jack and Ennis. We see them as not one of us,  but  something more than us, a goal that we all seek, we pray and hope for a love that is a force of nature, and can't be control.   A sex scene with Jack and Randall would change the meaning of this love,this is not a night in Mexico, but deliberate attempt at a break from Ennis, an attempt to change this force of nature of that love.    We hold up Jack and Ennis love as something we all seek in our lives,  that if there was sex scene with Jack and Randal it would be threatening element, as if saying "hey they are not so different from us".   

just a thought.

Perfectly stated.  This is the way I really feel about this.  It would have changed the balance, to be sure.  Thanks, manhattangirl.

[tpe]

Not entirely sure I agre. A " night in Mexico" sex scene would clearly alter one's perceptions of Jack but one with Randall? I don't know. I see Ennis and Jack not as some sort of ideals but as sharing our human qualities. People change and adapt, make compromises and settle for less than they want, which is what I suppose Randxall would be for Jack. It is entirely to feel passionate love for someone, not to be able to translate it into a permanent relationship and so find an alternative which while unsatisfactory may be realisable and necessary.

That said, I think any more sex scenes would spoil the balance of the movie - it's about so much more than the physical.

Interesting point, WW.  I concede that there is something here.  Personally though, a scene with Jack and Randall would have made Jack look appear less committed to Ennis evne before the final confrontation.

Of course, I realize that Jack DID have things going on with Randall, even before the final confrontation.  But seeing both of them in a sex scene would really have shifted the balance from Ennis and Jack to a love triangle.  I think Randall was a symptom of something going wrong, and not the cause.  To have shown a sex scene would have made it appear -- perhaps -- to some viewers that he was the cause of a "break-up" between Jack and  Ennis.

I hope this makes sense.

[lancecowboy]

Interesting point, WW.  I concede that there is something here.  Personally though, a scene with Jack and Randall would have made Jack look appear less committed to Ennis evne before the final confrontation.

Of course, I realize that Jack DID have things going on with Randall, even before the final confrontation.  But seeing both of them in a sex scene would really have shifted the balance from Ennis and Jack to a love triangle.  I think Randall was a symptom of something going wrong, and not the cause.  To have shown a sex scene would have made it appear -- perhaps -- to some viewers that he was the cause of a "break-up" between Jack and  Ennis.

I hope this makes sense.

I didn't manage to find the book in the limited time that I had, but I think there is one copy of it in a Vancouver's store. I will get it one way or another.

Having said that, I don't know how Randall was treated in the short story, or even how the movie really imply it. It would seem to me that if Mr Twist heard about Randall, then there is at least something going on. However, it is not past the possibility with Jack that there is NOTHING going on with Randall. We don't know for sure.

There are a number of possibilities:
1. Randall is playing with Jack, sensing Jack's need, he used Jack but was never serious about commitment.

2. Randall is serious with Jack, not being happy in his own marriage, he was ready to divorce his wife and move in with Jack.

3. Randall is not interested in Jack, and everything was simply Jack's imagination.

I am more inclined to go with 1, but 2 is not impossible, and 3 is not totally out of the question, given Laureen's comment about Jack's ideas. Those of you with the short story can interpret it close to Annie's original intention.

In any case, I think option 1 is simply tragic, and option 3 is even more tragic. Option 2 is actually very unlikely, although an attractive scenario. It is unlikely because Randall is a vet, or college educated, young, with a fairly attractive wife. He would have to be crazy about Jack to make option 2 feasible. I am leaning towards 1 because I don't think 3 is Jack's style. Jack may read more than there is into the relationship, but he wouldn't make it up totally.

Whether Randall "caused" the breakup or was merely the "symptom" of it as a result of Ennis' slowness in making a commitment would be the topic of another discussion. But for starters, I don't "blame" Randall anymore. He doesn't know about Ennis, and he was simply doing what the liberated gay "Fire Island" culture of the time period (70's and 80's) demanded. It would be interesting to see HIS reaction to Jack's death. We can decide if he had anything to do with it, but that changes the movie to Colombo or other detective story.

[tpe]

I didn't manage to find the book in the limited time that I had, but I think there is one copy of it in a Vancouver's store. I will get it one way or another.

Having said that, I don't know how Randall was treated in the short story, or even how the movie really imply it. It would seem to me that if Mr Twist heard about Randall, then there is at least something going on. However, it is not past the possibility with Jack that there is NOTHING going on with Randall. We don't know for sure.

There are a number of possibilities:
1. Randall is playing with Jack, sensing Jack's need, he used Jack but was never serious about commitment.

2. Randall is serious with Jack, not being happy in his own marriage, he was ready to divorce his wife and move in with Jack.

3. Randall is not interested in Jack, and everything was simply Jack's imagination.

I am more inclined to go with 1, but 2 is not impossible, and 3 is not totally out of the question, given Laureen's comment about Jack's ideas. Those of you with the short story can interpret it close to Annie's original intention.

In any case, I think option 1 is simply tragic, and option 3 is even more tragic. Option 2 is actually very unlikely, although an attractive scenario. It is unlikely because Randall is a vet, or college educated, young, with a fairly attractive wife. He would have to be crazy about Jack to make option 2 feasible. I am leaning towards 1 because I don't think 3 is Jack's style. Jack may read more than there is into the relationship, but he wouldn't make it up totally.

Whether Randall "caused" the breakup or was merely the "symptom" of it as a result of Ennis' slowness in making a commitment would be the topic of another discussion. But for starters, I don't "blame" Randall anymore. He doesn't know about Ennis, and he was simply doing what the liberated gay "Fire Island" culture of the time period (70's and 80's) demanded. It would be interesting to see HIS reaction to Jack's death. We can decide if he had anything to do with it, but that changes the movie to Colombo or other detective story.

OT: I also said elsewhere that I had wondered many times how Randall reactied to Jack's death -- a full discussion of this is embedded in some of the older threads -- perhaps the one on Randall.

On topic: taking the tree possibilities you mentioned, I do think that 2 has the geatest potential of changing the synamic between Ennis and Jack, especially if they introduced a sex scene.  If the filmmakers meant to imply that Randall was indeed serious, then it was good that they did not introduce a sex scene, IMO.  It would have changed our views of everything that had passed between our two protagonists.

[lancecowboy]

OT: I also said elsewhere that I had wondered many times how Randall reactied to Jack's death -- a full discussion of this is embedded in some of the older threads -- perhaps the one on Randall.

On topic: taking the tree possibilities you mentioned, I do think that 2 has the geatest potential of changing the synamic between Ennis and Jack, especially if they introduced a sex scene.  If the filmmakers meant to imply that Randall was indeed serious, then it was good that they did not introduce a sex scene, IMO.  It would have changed our views of everything that had passed between our two protagonists.

I, personally, would be disappointed at Jack, although understanding of his suffering, if he and Randall became serious. Jack has the potential to be the hero here, if he stuck it out, with Ennis, to the end. Changing horse (pun intended) just wouldn't do unless he resolved it with Ennis first, and the fight scene just wasn't satisfactory, at least in the movie. It left that feeling that Jack still loved Ennis, if only Ennis would return it more openly.

I don't know, I guess I am beginning to realize that although outwardly I identify with Ennis, inwardly, I share many of Jack's characteristics, and I would be disappointed at myself, if I was not loyal to Ennis first. Yes, I know, OT, sorry.

[myprivatejack]

Interesting point, WW.  I concede that there is something here.  Personally though, a scene with Jack and Randall would have made Jack look appear less committed to Ennis evne before the final confrontation.

Of course, I realize that Jack DID have things going on with Randall, even before the final confrontation.  But seeing both of them in a sex scene would really have shifted the balance from Ennis and Jack to a love triangle.  I think Randall was a symptom of something going wrong, and not the cause.  To have shown a sex scene would have made it appear -- perhaps -- to some viewers that he was the cause of a "break-up" between Jack and  Ennis.

I hope this makes sense.

I agree with you completely,tpe,very well said  .Effectively,Randall was not the cause of the progressive break in Jack and Ennis relationship,but the logical consequence of this break;we tend to be close to someone else to look for and maybe to find what  we can´t in the one we love.We say here "a nail pulls another nail out";it may sound a little rough,but it´s true.    Nevertheless,I don´t think either that a sex scene between Jack and Randall was something suitable,because it´d break the idilic image as lovers of Ennis and Jack and,even, it gaves the sensation that Jack was not only promiscuous,but also manipulative and opportunistic,as we say in anoter thread...Neither a sex scene between Jack and Lureen or Ennis and Cassie,although it was to show the progressive distance between them in the first case or the lack of comittment and real attraction on the part of Ennis in the second  case. I only miss a I don´t know if sex scene,but desire one-affection is already  shown in their last night together IMO- between them in their older age;I´ve already said it and I repite,because otherwise they seem sometimes a real pair of "fishing buddies", in the "innocent" sense of the word...

[manhattangirl]

I don't know, I guess I am beginning to realize that although outwardly I identify with Ennis, inwardly, I share many of Jack's characteristics, and I would be disappointed at myself, if I was not loyal to Ennis first. Yes, I know, OT, sorry.

lance,

You see something I also did, loyality.  Jack was loyal to Ennis, the only way he knew how, the only way he could.   From that first summer til his death, he was faithful and loyal to Ennis.  When Old man Twist told Ennis of the "other man",  he said nothing came of it.  How could it?   

OT- Lance,   I've been reading your posts, and so much of your heart are in them.  When I feel that there's nothing more inside me to feel I read you, and feel something more, thank you for that.

[babytammy7]

Hey Tony, go sleep!!!! Right now friend!!! It’s too late there!!! 

Wow I adore your last post!! I’ve always thought that sex is a kind of communication, a way to say what we need or what we hunger for, at least for me. Of course, as you said, there is also a kind of sex only as a exchange: one as a transaction and other such a game to get pleasure and entertainment!!! But for me almost everybody looking for sex to express one state of mind or heart or soul and to filling their hollow and those very hearts and souls.

As you said in SNIT Ennis was looking for real love, but I have to say that I think that in FNIT he was looking for love too, or at least for affection …..OK it was rough, fast, without tenderness, but as I said before, he was so young, rude, inexperienced, and he was drunk and confused, but this kind of violence doesn’t mean he wasn’t looking for love. I mean, you say:

how unloved Ennis was, how there is no parental love (inferred by the lack of
grieving), nor family love (he was dumped when he became inconvenient), no sign of male friends, and then Alma being an almost routine
development, sort of like, well, getting a job;

so Ennis didn’t have parents or friends or brothers and sisters who caressed him, or embraced him or took his hand, and knowing that he was virgin and probably Alma neither stroke him (no before marriage, I think), when he met Jack he have never had intimate contact, never have been caressed, touched, so I think at that point, in FNIT, and feeling “something strange” for his new friend, he was really hungry for caresses and physical contact, so I think there he was also saying: “Hey Jack, I really need to feel you, and I need it right now without games, without detours”, ‘cause I truly think he needed to feel the warmth and the touch of another human being, no matter how, no matter who.

Everybody needs sex or at least caress and physical contact, EVERYBODY: even the most pure people like and need the touch of one hand in their hand or in their cheek, ‘cause you can express a lot of things with a caress or one little touch but above all you are saying you love or appreciate the other person, so touching is as important as being touched. When you love somebody (parents, children, friends, partner…) you need to touch them and of course being touched for them, taking their hands, give them kisses, caressing their heads and their hairs.

I read in some place that primitive men used to delouse each other only for touching and feeling each other. So I think sex become a truly and powerful way of communication very useful for people with lack or problems of communication, like Ennis, whose are not be able to express themselves with words.

But on the contrary, sex can also express bad or negatives feelings, like hatred or rage. Sometimes people make love as an act of revenge or as a way to hurt to somebody or themselves. For example, Jack in México was an act of pain, rage, and making love with that hooker he was saying he was hurt, and probably he expressed that in his way of doing it, that’s for sure. And if he and Ennis had made love after the confrontation scene, probably both of them had shown all their despair and bitterness in that intercourse.
However, I know some people, feel bad and guilty having sex, in spite of they are in love with people they making love with. I think that sometimes Ennis felt guilty too for doing it with Jack when, for example, he had told Jack not to the sweet life again, and in that moment maybe one of them were rough making love, trying to hide all his bitterness or as a way to throw all his pain away. I don’t know is this makes any sense….. 

Well Tony, sorry for rambling…., but you know I don’t speak English and besides I’m writing hidden at office so quickly that I don’t know well what I’m writing….. 
So nice to read you again!!!  Take care and GO TO SLEEP!!! Muchos besos amigo!! 

[tpe]

I, personally, would be disappointed at Jack, although understanding of his suffering, if he and Randall became serious. Jack has the potential to be the hero here, if he stuck it out, with Ennis, to the end. Changing horse (pun intended) just wouldn't do unless he resolved it with Ennis first, and the fight scene just wasn't satisfactory, at least in the movie. It left that feeling that Jack still loved Ennis, if only Ennis would return it more openly.

I don't know, I guess I am beginning to realize that although outwardly I identify with Ennis, inwardly, I share many of Jack's characteristics, and I would be disappointed at myself, if I was not loyal to Ennis first. Yes, I know, OT, sorry.

I too think that Jack never stopped loving Ennis.

But when jack is at his most vulnerable -- in those scenes with Randall or in the post-divorce scene with Ennis -- I think I love him the best.  Same thing with Ennis, actually.

That's why I love the SNIT very much -- both of them seem so vulnerable.  I certainly wouldn't dare change anything there...

[tpe]

I agree with you completely,tpe,very well said  .Effectively,Randall was not the cause of the progressive break in Jack and Ennis relationship,but the logical consequence of this break;we tend to be close to someone else to look for and maybe to find what  we can´t in the one we love.We say here "a nail pulls another nail out";it may sound a little rough,but it´s true.    Nevertheless,I don´t think either that a sex scene between Jack and Randall was something suitable,because it´d break the idilic image as lovers of Ennis and Jack and,even, it gaves the sensation that Jack was not only promiscuous,but also manipulative and opportunistic,as we say in anoter thread...Neither a sex scene between Jack and Lureen or Ennis and Cassie,although it was to show the progressive distance between them in the first case or the lack of comittment and real attraction on the part of Ennis in the second  case. I only miss a I don´t know if sex scene,but desire one-affection is already  shown in their last night together IMO- between them in their older age;I´ve already said it and I repite,because otherwise they seem sometimes a real pair of "fishing buddies", in the "innocent" sense of the word...

Thanks MPJ. 

I must admit that introducing a scene between Randall and Jack would not just change the dynamic -- it would also be problematic.  How will they represent the emotions between the two?  To show them as being too sympathetic with each other would destroy the balance and our image of Jack and Ennis, as you pointed out.  It would have been very difficult to get right, IMO.  Perhaps it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to get right....  Lucky that they didn't even try.

[lancecowboy]

lance,

You see something I also did, loyality.  Jack was loyal to Ennis, the only way he knew how, the only way he could.   From that first summer til his death, he was faithful and loyal to Ennis.  When Old man Twist told Ennis of the "other man",  he said nothing came of it.  How could it?   

OT- Lance,   I've been reading your posts, and so much of your heart are in them.  When I feel that there's nothing more inside me to feel I read you, and feel something more, thank you for that.

OT: Shucks, manhattengirl, here I am first day back and you got me crying again.  :\'( PFS or not, it's good to be here. Like you said, and I bolded, being here allows me to be vulnerable, knowing you all are kind and gentle folk. It makes the cold world outside a little warmer when I can come back for a little fireside chat, every once in a while.

Back on topic: I just got the book of short story and screenplay. I'd like to think nothing more came of Randall but who knows. I am waiting until the weekend to read the short story, then watch the movie holding the screenplay. It will be an experience for sure. I am excited to get the opportunity to read about all the extra sex scenes in the short story, that you all have been hinting at, that were not depicted in the movie, for literary reasons, of course.

=PBS warning: if you don't want to get  :\'(, skip the next paragraph until you have tissues ready.

More on topic: I think the reason why the scene in the closet was so powerful, and Heath Ledger conveyed it so beautifully, was the fact that after hiding behind his own fortress for so long, although feeling Jack's love in some gut level, but still too scarred to know the love that Jack had for him, Ennis finally understood (with Cassie's help by example) that Jack loved him deeply, and loyally, and faithfully, and selflessly for twenty years. I think at that moment, holding those shirts, Ennis was recalling every word of their last conversation, understanding the deeper meaning of Jack's every phrase - never enough time, I wish I could quit you (meaning I can never quit you, instead of meaning I don't love you anymore ), you have no idea how bad it gets... :\'( :\'( :\'(

Anyway, sorry to get the tears rolling so early in the day.

[Tony]

      Thanks, BabyTammy---you really do have an excellent understanding of human nature, and you are never afraid to explore the passions
that can govern our lives.  The more we understand ourselves, the less we will hurt each other.
      Loved your new thread on the old coat and also the pictures sent in reply.  Really good, on your part, to notice, and quick work, in
those replies, to follow up.       Much love,  Tony.

[Tony]

    Am not groggy, in the middle of the night, and so better post now, while fairly rational.  Re-read my long post and thought OMG, what WERE
you thinking?
    Before I forget, welcome back, Lance. Read one of your posts about Ennis having a flashback to violence, with the sheep killed, a sense of
being unclean after FNIT, and the killing of the coyote as restoring balance.  That was really good stuff and supportable.

   Anyway, my speaking to sex as a form of communication was really garbled and am sorry for writing so poorly.  Even so, BabyTammy
untangled some, or even all of it, and developed a coherent answer.  But maybe there's a little left to go.
   Was Ennis communicating anything by keeping the sex minimal---about twice a year?  Can't remember the exact words but Manhattengirl
said wasn't it all about knowing your partners needs?  That's in an earlier post somewhere above.  If that's right (and agree with her completely),
Ennis was not fulfilling his partner's needs and even further, may have been saying something, by not doing so.  It's true, he had
responsibilities, but, and we've all wondered this, couldn't he have found a way?
   Was he saying, by rationing the sex, that that was all he could handle?  Or was it paralysis, which has also been discussed?  Or, as has
been said often, he could not come to terms with his sexuality?
   This is at the heart of the tragedy-Jack saying yes, always, and Ennis, from the start, from the very start, saying it could go on forever
(ain't no reins on this one) but qualifying that by saying they could get together.....sometimes, on a regular basis.  What was he saying
beyond the words themselves?
   I went and looked up the Immortal Beloved, the mysterious love of Beethoven that nobody can track down. Saw his letters--and thought
I saw, maybe, a similar dilemma-what level of commitment on either side, the problems of social censure, and the difficulty of two different
locations.
   The concept of the Immortal Beloved has gone past Beethoven's mystery love, and surely applies to both Ennis and Jack, each to the other.
We have Beethoven's letters.  We have Ennis' keeping the sex and the meetings limited.  I wonder if Ennis was saying, this isn't about sex.
Honestly don't know.  I have no approach to this that works.  But sex IS a form of communication and Ennis WAS saying something.
Maybe this can't be answered, but have an open mind if anyone will have a go at this.      Tony.

[lancecowboy]

Wow, where do I start?! A mere twelve hours, and the flood of posting on this thread.

I guess I will go in chronological order...as good as any...

    [...]
.....well, what if we look at how unloved Ennis was, how there is no parental love (inferred by the lack of
grieving), nor family love (he was dumped when he became inconvenient), no sign of male friends, and then Alma being an almost routine
development, sort of like, well, getting a job.  Then maybe the only reference point Ennis had to real love, enduring love, was the defiant,
courageous love between Earl and Rich, proven by risking death and, by dying.  Jackster's question was explored, but clearly, an unusual
equation could have been formed in the child's mind-real love is dangerous.  And yet that was what he craved. Something real.

  Well, starting there, am finally, finally where I would love to see more exploration.  Sex as communication.

What message is sent by various types of sexual events?  With a hooker-it's a transaction.  With rape, it is often said to be--hatred, rather
than lust.  Even in marital sex, it can be an expression of-everything's ok, routine & regular, and we're still together.  And in mature love,
the message can be reassurance, clinging, ratification.

   Have often felt that, in FNIT, Ennis was saying something:  you want to touch my loneliness?  You want to make this friendship serious?
Pay the price. (Which, Jack, as we know, didn't exactly mind paying).  Then, in SNIT,  Ennis was saying something else--he needed, hungered
for---real love, not animal sex, and so came to the tent, not as a cowboy stud, but as a beggar, hat in hand, asking for something more
than intercourse.

  Sex, or rather, sexual intimacy as a form of communication.  Then the rowdy, daytime scene, which Aguirre saw, communicating what?
Equality?  Acceptance?  No guilt?  An agreement?

   If sex can be a form of communication, what else do any of you see being communicated and even, what messages were sent but maybe
not received?  Is this too deep?  What do the sex scenes say, more than the surface level we usually deal with?

   My apologies for rambling-it is the middle of the night.  Where possible, avoid responses in Latin, where not possible, provide translation.
If this goes nowhere, well, there's always Finland.          Tony.

Hi, Tony, I can't imagine why you keep putting yourself down, since your paragraphs above are cogent and extremely insightful. I wish I had thought of it. And the phrase, "Sex as a form of communication", that's going to be a classic, like "the Medium is the message". So indeed, sex, is a medium that communicates something. And as you said, the message depends on the person and the context. As I said, you are very insightful into the depth of the human experience. I wish I know how to respond to it, and definitely not in Latin.  I feel instinctively that Ennis projects an aura of loneliness that was also picked up by Jack, at their first meeting. I didn't understand his reaction at first, after kicking the truck, but with the help of this forum and re-watching the movie, I can see that in a moment, Jack sized up Ennis to the T. Jack is the natural born salesman who is the extrovert who goes shaking hands with anyone and everyone he meets. But when Ennis duck his head and kick his boot at the dirt, like a little six-year old, Jack sensed instinctively to back off, and he continued to do so throughout their relationship. They say our relationships are forged within the first ten seconds. It is certainly true here. Ennis continues to evade, while Jack continues to pursue, gently.

Your interpretation that Ennis' FNIT roughness was demanding Jack to pay the price of seduction is an interesting one that I never thought of. I always thought it was simply Ennis' way of proving to Jack, and more importantly to himself, that he was no queer. However, I can see that there can be an element of truth to what you said. Ennis was trying make sure Jack is not going to betray him or turn the table on him. He was preparing for SNIT (subconsciously) but wanted to be sure that this was the right man. If Jack fought back, the night would have ended with Ennis riding off up the mountain. If Jack submitted too willingly, Ennis would lose respect for him as a man and cowboy. Jack had to walk a fine line between accommodating Ennis while standing up for himself.

The hat in hand gesture in SNIT is also interesting. I am not sure if it means begging or asking a favor, or simply Ennis' shy way of hiding his own excitement. I look forward to finding out more in the short story this weekend.

[...] there is also a kind of sex only as a exchange: one as a transaction and other such a game to get pleasure and entertainment!!! But for me almost everybody looking for sex to express one state of mind or heart or soul and to filling their hollow and those very hearts and souls.

As you said in SNIT Ennis was looking for real love, but I have to say that I think that in FNIT he was looking for love too, or at least for affection …..OK it was rough, fast, without tenderness, but as I said before, he was so young, rude, inexperienced, and he was drunk and confused, but this kind of violence doesn’t mean he wasn’t looking for love. I mean, you say:  so Ennis didn’t have parents or friends or brothers and sisters who caressed him, or embraced him or took his hand, and knowing that he was virgin and probably Alma neither stroke him (no before marriage, I think), when he met Jack he have never had intimate contact, never have been caressed, touched, so I think at that point, in FNIT, and feeling “something strange” for his new friend, he was really hungry for caresses and physical contact, so I think there he was also saying: “Hey Jack, I really need to feel you, and I need it right now without games, without detours”, ‘cause I truly think he needed to feel the warmth and the touch of another human being, no matter how, no matter who.

Everybody needs sex or at least caress and physical contact, EVERYBODY: even the most pure people like and need the touch of one hand in their hand or in their cheek, ‘cause you can express a lot of things with a caress or one little touch but above all you are saying you love or appreciate the other person, so touching is as important as being touched. When you love somebody (parents, children, friends, partner…) you need to touch them and of course being touched for them, taking their hands, give them kisses, caressing their heads and their hairs.

I read in some place that primitive men used to delouse each other only for touching and feeling each other. So I think sex become a truly and powerful way of communication very useful for people with lack or problems of communication, like Ennis, whose are not be able to express themselves with words.

But on the contrary, sex can also express bad or negatives feelings, like hatred or rage. Sometimes people make love as an act of revenge or as a way to hurt to somebody or themselves. For example, Jack in México was an act of pain, rage, and making love with that hooker he was saying he was hurt, and probably he expressed that in his way of doing it, that’s for sure. And if he and Ennis had made love after the confrontation scene, probably both of them had shown all their despair and bitterness in that intercourse.
However, I know some people, feel bad and guilty having sex, in spite of they are in love with people they making love with. I think that sometimes Ennis felt guilty too for doing it with Jack when, for example, he had told Jack not to the sweet life again, and in that moment maybe one of them were rough making love, trying to hide all his bitterness or as a way to throw all his pain away. I don’t know is this makes any sense….. 
[...]

Hi, babytammy7. It's so good to see you here again. And your analysis of Ennis' feelings in the sex scene is an example of what I treasure in this forum. I keep forgetting that Ennis was a virgin in every sense of the word. The impressive fortress he built protected his virtue, his innocence. When Jack invaded the castle, he was initially shocked, but then, secretly he welcomed the intrusion and was excited by the physical contact, the expression of appreciation, the sense of love. I agree with you that, perhaps, if Ennis waited until the wedding night with Alma to have sex, the movie would be different. This brings an interesting question that has been asked before, with no definitive answer, if a person has more than one soul mate in a life time. If Ennis never made it with Jack that summer, or never met Jack that summer, would he have been the love of another person's life. Would he and Alma have been soul mates? Would he and Cassie, if they had met later? As someone pointed out, Cassie is a female version of Jack, who is equally devoted to Ennis as Jack was. Is Ennis' love of the outdoors, of being a cowboy such a powerful influence that he can only love a cowboy, that his soul mate must be a cowboy? Would another cowboy do? I guess whatever the answer may be, the fact is that Jack happens to the cowboy what happened to be there in the summer of '63, and he was at that moment, Ennis' love, soul mate, best friend. No point in discussing what-ifs. Just enjoy the moment. Ennis needed love, and Jack needed the opportunity to be needed.

[...]
    Before I forget, welcome back, Lance. Read one of your posts about Ennis having a flashback to violence, with the sheep killed, a sense of
being unclean after FNIT, and the killing of the coyote as restoring balance.  That was really good stuff and supportable.

   Anyway, my speaking to sex as a form of communication was really garbled and am sorry for writing so poorly.  Even so, BabyTammy
untangled some, or even all of it, and developed a coherent answer.  But maybe there's a little left to go.
   Was Ennis communicating anything by keeping the sex minimal---about twice a year?  Can't remember the exact words but Manhattengirl
said wasn't it all about knowing your partners needs?  That's in an earlier post somewhere above.  If that's right (and agree with her completely),
Ennis was not fulfilling his partner's needs and even further, may have been saying something, by not doing so.  It's true, he had
responsibilities, but, and we've all wondered this, couldn't he have found a way?
   Was he saying, by rationing the sex, that that was all he could handle?  Or was it paralysis, which has also been discussed?  Or, as has
been said often, he could not come to terms with his sexuality?
   This is at the heart of the tragedy-Jack saying yes, always, and Ennis, from the start, from the very start, saying it could go on forever
(ain't no reins on this one) but qualifying that by saying they could get together.....sometimes, on a regular basis.  What was he saying
beyond the words themselves?
   I went and looked up the Immortal Beloved, the mysterious love of Beethoven that nobody can track down. Saw his letters--and thought
I saw, maybe, a similar dilemma-what level of commitment on either side, the problems of social censure, and the difficulty of two different
locations.
   The concept of the Immortal Beloved has gone past Beethoven's mystery love, and surely applies to both Ennis and Jack, each to the other.
We have Beethoven's letters.  We have Ennis' keeping the sex and the meetings limited.  I wonder if Ennis was saying, this isn't about sex.
Honestly don't know.  I have no approach to this that works.  But sex IS a form of communication and Ennis WAS saying something.
Maybe this can't be answered, but have an open mind if anyone will have a go at this.      Tony.

I think Ennis would love to meet with Jack more frequently if he could. But his job and children kept him from the love of his life. He was also too proud to accept charity from Jack. This was made clear at the end of their first summer. It may be another reason why Ennis blew up at Jack for suggesting Texas, that he thought Jack was asking him to be hired, and his tirade about having Laureen adopt the kids then makes sense. He did not want anyone else take on his responsibilities. Ennis was a proud man even in front of the man who would love him no matter what. I think that's the other thought that occurred to Ennis in the closet finding those shirts. For four years he thought Jack was sore from that punch, and lost the opportunity to love. For twenty years he thought Jack was only into the sex and fun they had, and lost the opportunities for deeper more meaningful love. "Girls don't fall in love for fun." If only... must have been on Ennis' mind for those powerful minutes with the shirts, indeed, every morning when he faced those shirts and that picture of Brokeback Mountain. Living Brokeback Mountain is also to have no regrets.

Interesting idea about Beethoven's Immortal Beloved. I can see the parallel, and perhaps it's the same PBS that drives Beethoven's creativity. PBS, Post Beloved Syndrome, when someone experienced the height of ecstatic love when two souls communicate without words, and lost.
Thanks for the insights, Tony.

Whew, that was a long reply. I think I must have been trying to make up for those days I was away.

[manhattangirl]

When Alma wanted  the apartment over the laundry where and how did she convince Ennis?  When Lureen got Jack in the back of the car what was she telling him?  Alma wanted to move in town, and Lureen wanted  to let Jack know that even though he was not her social equal she picked him out of all the suitors at the ball, (a real Scarlett O'Hara).   Sex was communication tool, but not a way to communicate something deeper, spiritual.

Sex is a tricky thing.  A way to get something and a way to communicate one's feelings.   No matter how difficult their lives apart from each other were.  Jack and Ennis when together, when making love, that was the one thing that didn't decrease or change no matter how often they were together, it didn't matter.  Sex was intense, all consuming.

Ennis would always be a ranch hand and Jack the "pissant" rodeo rider, but when together they ruled what was their world.   This total acceptance of each other, as men, as lovers, was the one real thing they each owned.  That's why I believe they could never quit each other, then who would they be.  Their relationship was who they were, sex was how they communicated their love, and total acceptance of each other. 

Just a thought. 



 

[aintfoolin]

MG,

 I totally agree with this. Beautifully said. I believe that during sex between these two, it is the culmination of all they feel for each other. It is also emotion expressed in a natural  comfortable way for both of them. I loved the way they just sort of just stumbled upon one another. It was fate that brought them together thru Aguirre, but what are the chances of lightening strikng twice like this for either of these guys in Wy 1963?  With the needs that they had, Ennis, in need of a friend, and there is Jack, willing to "stick with him"  Through the confusion, Sham marriages, on both parts, half-loving and half-living, Jack was there. It was he who saw  and pursued a future beyond Brokeback.

I still feel that Jack tapped into something deep inside Ennis, buried for years. I think when he met Jack, Ennis grew so close to Jack that he allowed himself to let them surface. Sex was important, as in any couple who is in love with someone else, but this was a new feeling for Ennis, a very different exploration into sex.  I do feel the distance kept it fresh and new in part Each time they met it was an opportunity to explore all over again. No doubt through the years, they came to know each other's needs very well and the only thing I'd really change would be some visiable expression of it.

It's been dicussed how Jack read Ennis up on Brokeback, ( How Jack knew when to approach Ennis in FNIT) but I'm curious if Ennis "read" anything into Jack prior to the tent scene? When Ennis looks at Jack just prior to the FNIT, whom does he see? A man, equal to him , rodeo bullrider, a masculine cowboy. He is also a friend , a companion, but I often love to explore the physical aspects. Jack was an attractive man, ( film Jack) not, the SS one, though in any case, Ennis fell hard.), but for the sake of this poster, it's the film Jack,  did Ennis ever acknowledge this to himself? Did he look at the physical?  I feel this is a very intriuging point. How much of THAT played into Ennis's new found experiences? They seemed like each others's dream in every way imo. Jack Twist? Jack Nasty, Alma says. As far as sex between them (and for Ennis's sake) it's a compliment as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes "Nasty"  is good.

[lancecowboy]

When Alma wanted  the apartment over the laundry where and how did she convince Ennis?  When Lureen got Jack in the back of the car what was she telling him?  Alma wanted to move in town, and Lureen wanted  to let Jack know that even though he was not her social equal she picked him out of all the suitors at the ball, (a real Scarlett O'Hara).   Sex was communication tool, but not a way to communicate something deeper, spiritual.

Sex is a tricky thing. A way to get something and a way to communicate one's feelings.   No matter how difficult their lives apart from each other were.  Jack and Ennis when together, when making love, that was the one thing that didn't decrease or change no matter how often they were together, it didn't matter.  Sex was intense, all consuming.

Ennis would always be a ranch hand and Jack the "pissant" rodeo rider, but when together they ruled what was their world.   This total acceptance of each other, as men, as lovers, was the one real thing they each owned.  That's why I believe they could never quit each other, then who would they be.  Their relationship was who they were, sex was how they communicated their love, and total acceptance of each other. 

Just a thought. 

Thanks, Manhattangirl. You always shine light on the subject, whatever it may be. I've often been confused by the intensity of my own sexual experiences, and never thought that this could be universal.    I recognized Alma's manipulative attempt to move to Riverton, by bringing up Ennis' lonely childhood, by making him feel guilty about the girls being brought up the same way. And now I see Ennis' response to her in his sex act in a new light. Not only was he reminiscing his FNIT with Jack (the night he stopped being lonely) when he flipped her over so roughly, and turning off the light, he was also telling her that there is a price to be paid when manipulating him into doing what she wanted. And interestingly, when Laureen had sex in the car with Jack, she was also telling him what to expect in their marriage, that her Daddy was always going to be there. Jack's accommodation of this difficult condition is a parallel to his acceptance of Ennis' difficulty in taking the next step in their relationship. Jack is the person in both relationships who put up with deal-breakers to make the best of what they had. When he stood up to the old man, and took charge of his marriage, he was also getting fed up with the #$% unsatisfactory of a situation with Ennis. Unfortunately, instead of communicating in a way that Ennis could respond to with change, he blew up at Ennis the same way that he blew up at the old man. Stand up to a bully, but treat a lover's heart with gentle care. Jack broke Ennis' heart that day. And it looked as if they did not get a chance to have make-up sex, like they did after their spat next to the river, and after Ennis' attempt to open up to Jack about feeling people knowing. So NOT having sex was also a message. I always felt that last meeting scene was @#$ unsatisfactory. It was also why the closet scene was so powerful. Annie Proulx is a #@$ genius! And Ang Lee is #$% brilliant! Without that last meeting scene to build up all the tension, the quiet scene in Jack's room would feel empty. But instead, with the last meeting scene still fresh in mind, Ennis' every movement was a reflection of his thoughts of Jack that day, and by extension their twenty years together. Diane Ossana and Larry McMurtry were also very wise to introduce Cassie in the diner between the last meeting scene and the postcard. It puts Ennis' transformation into motion, from a broken-hearted lonely old man eating in the diner into the cowboy with renewed hope for a better future, then having it snatched away again.

Seeing Ennis sitting there by the window, thinking how, as you said, when they were together, they ruled what was their world, and if Ennis had accepted Jack's proposal, they could have ruled the little cow and calf operation, right there, just like that, always, a sweet life. But he didn't want it, and when he found those shirts,... :\'(

#$@ PBS warning------

[lancecowboy]

[...]
It's been dicussed how Jack read Ennis up on Brokeback, ( How Jack knew when to approach Ennis in FNIT) but I'm curious if Ennis "read" anything into Jack prior to the tent scene? When Ennis looks at Jack just prior to the FNIT, whom does he see? A man, equal to him , rodeo bullrider, a masculine cowboy. He is also a friend , a companion, but I often love to explore the physical aspects. Jack was an attractive man, ( film Jack) not, the SS one, though in any case, Ennis fell hard.), but for the sake of this poster, it's the film Jack,  did Ennis ever acknowledge this to himself? Did he look at the physical?  I feel this is a very intriuging point. How much of THAT played into Ennis's new found experiences? They seemed like each others's dream in every way imo. Jack Twist? Jack Nasty, Alma says. As far as sex between them (and for Ennis's sake) it's a compliment as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes "Nasty"  is good.

Hi, aintfoolin, I think someone said the short story had Ennis expressing more of his feelings in the hotel scenes. One of which had him saying how he kept thinking about Jack but never about any other men. I think as far as Ennis was concerned, it wasn't the physical appearance that attracted him to Jack, but the emotional, personality of the carefree bravado that Jack represented in rodeo riding devil-may care attitude. Their personalities are polar opposites, yet they fitted each other on that Mountain like the two shirts. The sex was an expression of that fit.

I agree that it would be hard for them to find anyone else, which is why they are soul mates (not some magical metaphysical reasons). They'd be lucky to find each other in today's liberated society. Then again, perhaps their particular social and geographical situation also made it possible, almost inevitable that Brokeback Mountain happened. I mean by that, in their isolation, and almost homogeneous society of that era and location,  two cowboys of their particular personality and inclination were bound to eventually meet up in those particular circumstances. As Annie Proulx wrote in her essay accompanying the short story and script, she chose that setting to explore and found many people from that era and time writing to her afterwards of their similar experiences.

I'd be inclined to think that in today's society, soul mates still meet and find each other, regardless of physical appearances, of other outward characteristics.

Just my naive opinion.

[tpe]

When Alma wanted  the apartment over the laundry where and how did she convince Ennis?  When Lureen got Jack in the back of the car what was she telling him?  Alma wanted to move in town, and Lureen wanted  to let Jack know that even though he was not her social equal she picked him out of all the suitors at the ball, (a real Scarlett O'Hara).   Sex was communication tool, but not a way to communicate something deeper, spiritual.

Sex is a tricky thing.  A way to get something and a way to communicate one's feelings.   No matter how difficult their lives apart from each other were.  Jack and Ennis when together, when making love, that was the one thing that didn't decrease or change no matter how often they were together, it didn't matter.  Sex was intense, all consuming.

Ennis would always be a ranch hand and Jack the "pissant" rodeo rider, but when together they ruled what was their world.   This total acceptance of each other, as men, as lovers, was the one real thing they each owned.  That's why I believe they could never quit each other, then who would they be.  Their relationship was who they were, sex was how they communicated their love, and total acceptance of each other. 

Just a thought. 

This makes me think of the sex scene between Jack and Lureen, and how carefully everything was made.

As most actors are wont to say, all sex scenes begin with "technical" element: I put my hand here, you put your arm here, etc.  These elements are carefully planned to communicate things in a language common to lovers.  But "chemistry" (sometimes under the guise of "trust") is what makes sex scenes go beyond the technical elements and give us an idea on an inner life between the two characters.

IMO, the scene between Jack and Lureen has all the technical aspects, but we are made to see very little beyond that.  It is as if we are deliberately led to believe that this was just all about pleasure, and nothing deeper than that.  This is not to say that mordants do not exist -- I refer here to the part of the scene when Lureen asks the question and Jack gives his glib remark.  Both their eye momentarily beget the spark of inner life, no?  But not enough, IMO, to make us think that it goes deeper than that.

Why am I bringing this up?  I bring this up to illustrate how carefully the sex scenes in this movie are given a sense of balance.  Enough balance such that any changes may just tip the entire thing over, if you get what I mean.

The same analysis can be made with the other sex scenes here.  It makes the argument for modification really difficult, taking all this into consideration.

[Tony]

      Tpe, that was a good summing up, that the balance to the sex scenes was so careful, any changes would tip the boat over, and over-all,
that is my own conclusion---if it aint broke--don't fix it.
      Wanted to explain, though, some remarks I had made about the number of takes for FNIT.  Had gotten a DVD of "The Order", an earlier
film with Heath Ledger, and they put into the extras, mischievously, I thought, Heath doing a grieving scene over his dead girlfriend, 15 times-
each take a total mess, to where the actress looked up and rolled her eyeballs.  It really wasn't Heath, but the messy scene itself.  Had to
admire him for keeping at it, refusing to give up.  And these grieving scenes, IMO, were part of his growth as an actor, leading him to the
perfected skill shown in the grieving scenes of BBM.
   It was in that context, then, that I thought I saw fatigue, this time in Heath, in the many takes of FNIT.  And I really thought they
should have taken a break, summoned a gay guy, had a conference and  then, some slight shifts.  The scene still works, and all I was doing
was just....noticing, and comparing.  As it happens, Ledger wanted some slight changes to the scene, more initial resistance, and that never
happened.  The scene works, but there is no harm in always looking closer, if only briefly.  But you are right-the boat floats.

    As for my terribly scrambled wonderings about Ennis rationing sex and the tragic conflict between him and Jack, I did not expect an
answer, but Lance may have given one, accidentally.  He referred to Jack being an extrovert.  That term is from Jungian psychology and,
of course, if Ennis was an introvert, there's the answer.  An introvert brings the world into themselves, and as for a lover, carries the
beloved inside, faithfully, and does not understand that more is needed.  As far as Ennis was concerned, Jack was always with him.
Annie Proulx has Ennis "wringing it out", thinking of Jack--typical introvert. Jack wanted the actual doings.
   So, am going with Jungian personality types, plus aintfoolin, whose practical takes on Ennis are almost always, IMO, expert. Except,
of course, when she persists in the delusion that Ennis would never bottom.  Concede once or twice, aintfoolin, pretty please?  Love, Tony.

[Tony]

     Mmmmm.....need to scratch the word "delusion" from the above post, as rapidly as possible.  Aintfoolin and I have had a running battle
on that one point, all in good humor, but the World Series may not be going as she would like, and so am running for cover.
    Of course, I meant reputable expertise, profound insight, etc., etc.  No want no baseball bat headed my way.  Tony.

[babytammy7]

     Mmmmm.....need to scratch the word "delusion" from the above post, as rapidly as possible.  Aintfoolin and I have had a running battle
on that one point, all in good humor, but the World Series may not be going as she would like, and so am running for cover.
    Of course, I meant reputable expertise, profound insight, etc., etc.  No want no baseball bat headed my way.  Tony.

          

Run boy, Aintfoolin is coming!!!!

[babytammy7]

Hello brokies!!

Well, back to the original question. We all have said that we are really happy with the sex scenes as they are ( Not Tony….he want us to show him something…. ^^)  ^^) And it’s not an Italian, Tony….    ), so powerful and beautiful!!! And we all (well almost all) are truly happy with the number of sex scenes and the “things” Ennis and Jack did in those scenes!!!

But today I was going for a walk on the fanfic board, and I noticed that every fic have a lot of sex scenes, very explicit, very long, very intense, full of different postures and different sexual games!!!      In almost every chapter of several fics there is sex!!  Always, in those fics the writers use sex like an amazing way that Ennis and Jack need to express themselves and their feelings and emotions, and even in all those fanfics sex is the only way for them to show each other their eternal love.
I also noticed that every brokie reading those fics, adore sex scenes, looking for more, asking for more and clapping the sex scenes they just have read!!! They are (and I am) sooooo happy and excited reading Ennis and Jack making love!! And sex scenes seem to be an indispensable element in those fics, in Ennis and Jack’s life and love!!!

So I’m asking to myself, though we all prefer the film as it is, unconsciously do we crave for more sex scenes between Ennis and Jack, or at least, that some of the scenes in the film were longer or more explicit? So I also think that maybe we need, in our subconscious, more sex in BBM as an only and powerful expression of love, which means that we all see sex, in one or another way, like a pure and enormous manifestation of love. 

Oooohhh, sorry I don’t know if this makes sense, I’m so confused today…..( I have an terrible PBS, and also I’m very tired ’cause still I’m sick). Just thinking…..

Kisses from Spain. 

[Tony]

      What fanfics?  What sex?  Why am I always the last one to know what's going on around here?   Tony.