Author Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?  (Read 435195 times)

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #330 on: Mar 27, 2008, 02:58 PM »
 Imo , maybe, Ennis's skittish manner in which he saw himself , the role he saw himself in mentally ,is a dead giveaway to me, but I guess it could all come down to preferences. Of course the imagination is a wonderful thing. Bottom Ennis?  it's possible, yes but I doubt it.  unfortunatly we will never know.  That's only my opinion though.
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babytammy7

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #331 on: Mar 27, 2008, 03:17 PM »
Imo , maybe, Ennis's skittish manner in which he saw himself , the role he saw himself in mentally ,is a dead giveaway to me, but I guess it could all come down to preferences. Of course the imagination is a wonderful thing. Bottom Ennis?  it's possible, yes but I doubt it.  unfortunatly we will never know.  That's only my opinion though.

I totally agree with you AF!! In the SS we have NOT clues that indicate that Ennis could be bottom.

In SNIT Jack was only on top of Ennis but that doesn't mean that Jack was the top. I mean, how many women make love on top of their partners? And how many bottom men too? A lot, you know that. So the posture Ennis and Jack had in SNIT doesn't matter. Besides, we don't see the rest so later they could change positions again!!!

Well, this is only my humble opinion, but I think Ennis sees himself in a determinate way, not queer and those things, so I think Ennis was always top, cause he had enough things to deal with in his head making love with a man, to deal, on top of that, with being bottom. But, we will never know.
« Last Edit: Mar 27, 2008, 03:31 PM by Baby Tammy »

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #332 on: Mar 27, 2008, 03:20 PM »
I think changing his lovemaking is something that he wouldn't have allowed in a straight relationship; with Jack he had his moments of openness. I think the "bed" he shared with him was a very rare sanctuary but only in that very moment. Basically anywhere off of the mountain was a different story.
I believe almost everything including this opening of lovemaking, started in SNIT.  :)
Imo , maybe, Ennis's skittish manner in which he saw himself , the role he saw himself in mentally ,is a dead giveaway to me, but I guess it could all come down to preferences. Of course the imagination is a wonderful thing. Bottom Ennis?  it's possible, yes but I doubt it.  unfortunatly we will never know.  That's only my opinion though.

I think differently from you,Justin.I agree in the sense that Ennis allowed himself some "fantasies" in the very moment,concrete and only then.The bed was indeed their sanctuary,their kind of BBM where they felt and were free; and when things are like this,everything is allowed and is received in good will.But I've never tough in Ennis as bottom,never...SNIT shows him to us for a "geographic position" as I said before,in the foreplay,nothing else.It would be a too long step for him to do... :*(

Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #333 on: Mar 27, 2008, 03:24 PM »
I totally agree with you AF!! In the SS we have NOT clues that indicate that Ennis could be bottom.

In SNIT Jack was only on top of Ennis but that doesn't mean that Jack was the top. I mean, how many women make love on top of their partners. And how many men too? A lot, you know that. So the posture Ennis and Jack had in SNIT doesn't matter. Besides, we don't see the rest so later they could change positions again!!!

Well, this is only my humble opinion, but I think Ennis sees himself in a determinate way, not queer and those things, so I think Ennis was always top. But, we will never know.

Good points, aintfoolin and Tammy. They are simply the walls I like believing were deconstructed when Jack and Ennis were together on the mountain. It's in what's left to the imagination that stokes the campfire hues against the black of preconceived ideas and love. My ideas of this are still characterized more by human touch, passion, foreplay etc., rather than roles such as 'bottom and top'.
I am a bit of an odd duck most likely, in that those things are indeed on the bottom of my list.
IMO, Ennis had just about everything to feel insecure about, yes, judging by how the Earl bit affects him. Yes, I will agree being a full on bottom isn't likely.  :)
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Offline orangetruck

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #334 on: Mar 27, 2008, 03:30 PM »
I think differently from you,Justin.I agree in the sense that Ennis allowed himself some "fantasies" in the very moment,concrete and only then.The bed was indeed their sanctuary,their kind of BBM where they felt and were free; and when things are like this,everything is allowed and is received in good will.But I've never tough in Ennis as bottom,never...SNIT shows him to us for a "geographic position" as I said before,in the foreplay,nothing else.It would be a too long step for him to do... :*(



Read my post below.
I'm not sure I even touch the subject matter with a 10 yard stick...  ;D
But yes, for the record, I believe there were moments when Ennis would do everything. And I will be the first to admit that is partly a clumsy act of my optimism. I find it difficult to nail down certain crutches of their relationship. It's the epic story -- always suggesting that the only true shortcoming were the times not spent on "brokeback mountain."
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #335 on: Mar 27, 2008, 04:08 PM »
Read my post below.
I'm not sure I even touch the subject matter with a 10 yard stick...  ;D
But yes, for the record, I believe there were moments when Ennis would do everything. And I will be the first to admit that is partly a clumsy act of my optimism. I find it difficult to nail down certain crutches of their relationship. It's the epic story -- always suggesting that the only true shortcoming were the times not spent on "brokeback mountain."

 ~) but I don't understand English as well as to "enter"( metaphorically speaking,of course... >:D ) in double meanings or some kind of subjects...Well,I DO touch the subject matter...I don't know with what¡  ;)
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #336 on: Mar 27, 2008, 04:26 PM »
~) but I don't understand English as well as to "enter"( metaphorically speaking,of course... >:D ) in double meanings or some kind of subjects...Well,I DO touch the subject matter...I don't know with what¡  ;)

That's alright. I just, if we must get into 'top' and 'bottom', think during maybe another drunken (or sober) state that those roles escaped them somewhere along 20 years. I find it rather silly to presume Ennis was branded as to only 'top' a man but not 'bottom'; If he could overcome the traumatization of that whole Earl thing and make love (or whatever like that) to another man at all, then that was crossing the boundary itself. Maybe the SS suggested rough tough Ennis wasn't gonna utilize his relationship with Jack to the fullest extent, ever, but then again, SS didn't even have SNIT. And this pulls my focus back on the artistry, and the glimmer of unspoken and open-ended scenes. Ang did craft the 'filler' of Brokeback not like an antzy, yuppy film school student, but rather like a thought provoking, coherent film director.
     I think the scenes of intimacy are very much included in the spectrum of personal interpretation, moreso in the film than the SS probably. It's important that the viewer (used to the candy of typical Hollywood sex scenes) is left to find familiar feelings, maybe even pathos, in these scenes. There are simply very few in this film, to contour the passion in the love affair. -- And we (I) like to get more out of it than top or bottom; something like a wholesome middle..

Given SNIT, I think I would leave the sex scenes as they are.  :)
« Last Edit: Mar 27, 2008, 04:32 PM by orangetruck »
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

babytammy7

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #337 on: Mar 27, 2008, 05:14 PM »
 ~) Sorry!!

Huh, Justin, but I know there are men who are ONLY top or bottom during their WHOLE life, and that has nothing to do with fears. They like it in some fixed way and they don't want and don't need to change roles to be happy and to have a satisfactory sexual life. At least, my gay friends are like that. Among 15 or so, only one likes both ways.....

But well, I'm just wondering, asking, rambling.....you know, maybe Ennis liked it only in one way. He made clear in FNIT what he liked. Anyway, probably you know more than me.

manhattangirl

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #338 on: Mar 27, 2008, 05:48 PM »
I may be inappropriate here, but the way Ennis had the tendency to flip Alma over, well, is that how was with Jack?   Through them , (Ennis and Alma), we can figure out pretty much Ennis sexual dominance, and his need for that particular sexual act.  Alma gave in, but did Jack?  

Jack is the only one in Ennis's life where he stood toe to toe with, but Ennis trusted, needed, and loved Jack, wouldn't he succumb to Jack?   Wouldn't he give in to Jack, try to please him, and through that found pleasure he never knew?  

Ennis is capable of that where Jack is concern SNIT proved that. Maybe, just maybe it's not all about "I'll take from you,",  it's also "I'll give to you."  

Just my humble opinion. 

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #339 on: Mar 27, 2008, 06:01 PM »
I may be inappropriate here, but the way Ennis had the tendency to flip Alma over, well, is that how was with Jack?   Through them , (Ennis and Alma), we can figure out pretty much Ennis sexual dominance, and his need for that particular sexual act.  Alma gave in, but did Jack?  

Jack is the only one in Ennis's life where he stood toe to toe with, but Ennis trusted, needed, and loved Jack, wouldn't he succumb to Jack?   Wouldn't he give in to Jack, try to please him, and through that found pleasure he never knew?  

Ennis is capable of that where Jack is concern SNIT proved that. Maybe, just maybe it's not all about "I'll take from you,",  it's also "I'll give to you."  

Just my humble opinion. 

good point  :s)

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #340 on: Mar 27, 2008, 06:19 PM »
I may be inappropriate here, but the way Ennis had the tendency to flip Alma over, well, is that how was with Jack?   Through them , (Ennis and Alma), we can figure out pretty much Ennis sexual dominance, and his need for that particular sexual act.  Alma gave in, but did Jack?  

Jack is the only one in Ennis's life where he stood toe to toe with, but Ennis trusted, needed, and loved Jack, wouldn't he succumb to Jack?   Wouldn't he give in to Jack, try to please him, and through that found pleasure he never knew?  

Ennis is capable of that where Jack is concern SNIT proved that. Maybe, just maybe it's not all about "I'll take from you,",  it's also "I'll give to you."   

Just my humble opinion. 

Thank you.  :)

And Tammy, sure many guys only like it one way. I just like and tend to trust that with Jack, Ennis got to experience the give/take on all levels, of friendship, lovemaking, and love. He was drunk in FNIT, and both their sexual frustration had been stimulated up until then. It is BAM, and SNIT is "WOAH take it easy, take it in"

I just can't limit my intake of this aspect of Brokeback Mountain to only one side or the other. SNIT will still stay in my mind as the relationship where everything is possible, and perhaps happened.
 :cr) to everyone's humble, special, glorious opinion.
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #341 on: Mar 28, 2008, 08:32 AM »
Yes,I also feel they had switched positions in the SNIT,but only in a "geographic" sense.I mean,changing his lovemaking is something I think Ennis would have never allowed.I don't know if I'm rambling... (^)

Hmmm.  To be sure, I actually felt that Ennis switched to the passive mode in SNIT. 

You see the power on not being too explicit, we can spend years talking about this!  :)




Offline tpe

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #342 on: Mar 28, 2008, 08:37 AM »
I may be inappropriate here, but the way Ennis had the tendency to flip Alma over, well, is that how was with Jack?   Through them , (Ennis and Alma), we can figure out pretty much Ennis sexual dominance, and his need for that particular sexual act.  Alma gave in, but did Jack?  

Jack is the only one in Ennis's life where he stood toe to toe with, but Ennis trusted, needed, and loved Jack, wouldn't he succumb to Jack?   Wouldn't he give in to Jack, try to please him, and through that found pleasure he never knew?  

Ennis is capable of that where Jack is concern SNIT proved that. Maybe, just maybe it's not all about "I'll take from you,",  it's also "I'll give to you."  

Just my humble opinion. 

I do agree that Ennis was probably dominant most of the time.  Indeed, the way she flips Alma reflects his preferences, although I must say that even if ALma would have wanted to play the dominant role, she would have been unable to do so without additional equipment.  And besides, for Alma to do that would have been unacceptable, even if anal intercourse between a male and a female probably was the limit of what she would allow.

Having said this, I still think that SNIT implied a more passive Ennis.




athena0204

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #343 on: Mar 28, 2008, 10:48 AM »
Thank you.  :)

And Tammy, sure many guys only like it one way. I just like and tend to trust that with Jack, Ennis got to experience the give/take on all levels, of friendship, lovemaking, and love. He was drunk in FNIT, and both their sexual frustration had been stimulated up until then. It is BAM, and SNIT is "WOAH take it easy, take it in"

I just can't limit my intake of this aspect of Brokeback Mountain to only one side or the other. SNIT will still stay in my mind as the relationship where everything is possible, and perhaps happened.
 :cr) to everyone's humble, special, glorious opinion.

Yeah, in FNIT, remember Ennis is a virgin. He doesn't even really know what he is doing. He was probably only half-concious of it anyway, being drunk and half-asleep. In SNIT, that's where we see the real lovemaking. I believe that it definitely wasn't one-side or another too. In fact, that is the whole point of the SNIT. It's to show that Ennis definitely wasn't sexually "dominant" with Jack. They both experienced all levels of intimacy because they felt so comfortable with each other and they truly loved each other. As for the Ennis/Alma scene, he flips her over because that way if he closed his eyes, he could just pretend it was Jack, but it definitely doesn't mean that he was always the one who penatrated Jack or that Ennis was the "dominate" one or anything...he clearly wasn't comfortable with Alma, he couldn't "give in" with her, because he only had that feeling of deep love and trust with Jack. And Alma is definitely not someone like Cassie, who is comfortable with her sexuality, so it makes sense that Alma is "passive". Also, with Alma, Ennis is "dominant" because he views sex with her as a "duty". With Jack, Ennis allowed himself to let go of "control"...I think there were a lot of "SNIT" (where I believe Ennis was most definitely bottom that night) type times when Jack and Ennis made love, because Ennis strikes me as this person who wants someone to caress him and hold him and show him pleasure, and of course Jack was the only person who Ennis trusted enought to "give in too" or be "passive"...although I believe the right words for that are he wasn't submitting to what Jack wanted, he was submitting to what he himself wanted, what they both wanted to feel pleasure in different ways and such, which I believe that's how the sexual part of their relationship was, about how sex was one of the ways they expressed their love for each other, not in how they "dominated" or whatever. Neither Jack nor Ennis was sexually "dominant", they were two human beings experiencing all kinds of pleasure together, just being themselves and loving each other. With Alma, Ennis was "dominant" because he didn't really see sex with her as an act out of love, he just saw it as a duty, while with Jack, he could be "passive" because he felt that everything they were doing stemmed out of their true and deep love. With Jack, making love was making love, not sex as a duty, and neither one was "dominant" over the other...they were both equals. So I believe that Ennis was indeed "bottom" a lot of times...remember Ennis never felt comfortable with any type of sexuality...but with Jack he could just be in the moment and let go and allow himself to be loved in every way. Everything Ennis displays to other people, (his stoic facade, his appearance that he is "in control")...all of that completely goes out the window when Ennis is with Jack. Jack knows the real true Ennis...someone who is very vulnerable and sensitive deep down inside, someone who needs to love and be loved, someone who had built that wall and that stoic demeanor because he was afraid of getting hurt...Jack knows all of this, and Ennis knows Jack knows his real self, so he could just be himself and not worry because he trusted Jack. Jack telling him "It's all right," in SNIT, means "It's alright to give in to your true feelings, Ennis, it's alright to just be who you really are with me, it's alright to feel all kinds of pleasure with me, because we truly love each other." So he wasn't afraid to be who he truly was with Jack...and that meant letting go and experiencing all kinds of intimacy with Jack. Being with Jack for Ennis was like being in another dimension where he could completely forget all the restrictions and the expectations that society had for the role it wanted Ennis to play, which Ennis knew that it was something he wasn't and something he could only pretend to be around other people. With Jack, he was just free to give into his real feelings, free to do things he would only feel comfortable doing with Jack, free to let Jack teach him about sexuality, and free to experience all the aspects of true love, romantic, emotional, sexual, philosophical, psychological, etc.
« Last Edit: Mar 28, 2008, 12:19 PM by athena0204 »

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #344 on: Mar 28, 2008, 02:51 PM »
Well,I'm afraid I'm the only one in all the forum who doesn't share this opinion about Ennis with so much security... :-\\  Yes,Athena,making love with Jack was a real MAKING LOVE,not a duty as it finished by being in his case with Alma and ,to same extent,in her own case;and that this implies to give himself completely to the loved being.OK,beautiful...But,does this mean that he lost in "horizontal position" several of the fears,cliches and obligations he imposed himself in "vertical position"?.What I'm trying to say it's that the image that Ennis have of himself and of what a man must be-souvenir of his father's contra-education-was a half-distorted and esterotyped one; but always very masculine in the,maybe,worst sense of the word...And bearing in mind that is not the same to take than be taken,I wonder if Ennis could find "bottom"...how could I say it because anyone could get offended?...too feminine,too "queer" or too the ensemble of both?.Could it produce a kind of self-guilt from having "deepen"-oh,sorry... :) - more still in the contrary of this image? A contrary image he tried so roughly to struggle against,no matter how in love he was?.Couldn't it be emotionally destabilizing for him?...Because-and if you allow me to personalising-I know what I don't like my loved one to do to me,no matter what I feel;and I don't have so many paranoias about my image as Ennis had,that's for sure.IM-alone and only-O.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

athena0204

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #345 on: Mar 28, 2008, 05:34 PM »
Well,I'm afraid I'm the only one in all the forum who doesn't share this opinion about Ennis with so much security... :-\\  Yes,Athena,making love with Jack was a real MAKING LOVE,not a duty as it finished by being in his case with Alma and ,to same extent,in her own case;and that this implies to give himself completely to the loved being.OK,beautiful...But,does this mean that he lost in "horizontal position" several of the fears,cliches and obligations he imposed himself in "vertical position"?.What I'm trying to say it's that the image that Ennis have of himself and of what a man must be-souvenir of his father's contra-education-was a half-distorted and esterotyped one; but always very masculine in the,maybe,worst sense of the word...And bearing in mind that is not the same to take than be taken,I wonder if Ennis could find "bottom"...how could I say it because anyone could get offended?...too feminine,too "queer" or too the ensemble of both?.Could it produce a kind of self-guilt from having "deepen"-oh,sorry... :) - more still in the contrary of this image? A contrary image he tried so roughly to struggle against,no matter how in love he was?.Couldn't it be emotionally destabilizing for him?...Because-and if you allow me to personalising-I know what I don't like my loved one to do to me,no matter what I feel;and I don't have so many paranoias about my image as Ennis had,that's for sure.IM-alone and only-O.

I don't see it that way at all. If Ennis could overcome his conditioning enough to actually have sex with a man, and if Ennis let Jack hold him and touch him the way he did in SNIT and later when we see Jack holding him in the motel room scene...then it's proof that with Jack, Ennis is letting go. With Jack, the "rules" no longer apply. It's like stepping into another dimension for him, where for those times he's with Jack, he forgets about society for a while. I think that's the whole point of SNIT, to show us that Ennis came out from his wall so much with Jack and only Jack, that he "gives in" to him the way he would never "give in" to anyone else. Though I wonder if he "gave in" to Cassie...because like Jack, she had such a strong, outgoing personality.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #346 on: Mar 28, 2008, 06:03 PM »
I don't see it that way at all. If Ennis could overcome his conditioning enough to actually have sex with a man, and if Ennis let Jack hold him and touch him the way he did in SNIT and later when we see Jack holding him in the motel room scene...then it's proof that with Jack, Ennis is letting go. With Jack, the "rules" no longer apply. It's like stepping into another dimension for him, where for those times he's with Jack, he forgets about society for a while. I think that's the whole point of SNIT, to show us that Ennis came out from his wall so much with Jack and only Jack, that he "gives in" to him the way he would never "give in" to anyone else. Though I wonder if he "gave in" to Cassie...because like Jack, she had such a strong, outgoing personality.
Sorry,but one thing is that Jack holds him in the motel or caresses him in SNIT-even if it reveals a surrender on his part...-and another is that he allows him to do something so far away from a man with Ennis state of mind...I also forget about society when required  >:D ,but I always know what I like and what not; and,believe me,this is not an obstacle against the love I can feel for this person.It's simply a question of own taste or,in some cases like Ennis,of principles...Their love could be great and deep,but the same than had its faults and mistakes that we've checked and analysed,they perfectly could have their...rules?let's say it so.JMO again.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #347 on: Mar 28, 2008, 08:03 PM »
 If I'm not mistaken, what MPJ is saying is that when we take in to consideration, Ennis's overall personality and the way he sees himself , his fears, his stoicism , the conflict, within himself ,Ennis is unlikely to *bottom* not even for Jack. It's not so much rejecting Jack in anyway, it's more about what Ennis has established himself to be. I'm glad she brought up the (no-offense) *feminine role* asscoiated with the lovemaking. Honestly, there is a different perspective put upon the taker* than the *giver*especially with someone like Ennis. It is about dominance and maintaing the sense of masculinity within himself. Something his sought to maintain throughout the whole relationship. Please, don't get me wrong, Jack was masculine in is own right, but he was'nt the one with the major issues about it , unlike Ennis, and Ennis had major, major issues about self indentification.
  Even in SNIT, it's  more about feelings and discovery of feelings than role-playing. Yes, Ennis was at his most open  with Jack, but this is still Ennis Del Mar we're talking about. He came into the tent to confirm his feelings and validate them and of course expand on what he he felt after FNIT. Certainly he thought about what could transpire, but I just don't see Ennis *giving in* enough to give up that much control .  Not yet.

Ennis imo, always thought himself the tough ,masculine ,stubborn cowboy with established rules that he could live with in every aspect of his life. To take on the *bottom* role would contradict who Ennis felt he was outside of the lovemaking.  I feel that SNIT was indeed a more *softer, gentler affair and Jack was essential in showing him that,  which contributed to Ennis's quest of discovery. He just let Ennis close his eyes and *feel* another human being in the way he wanted and needed.
 He thought about it outside the tent but was he completely comfortable about it? I don't think so., but when he started to feel Jack I think it all became real for him , he could feel the contours of Jack's body in his hands and took it all in. We last Jack on top, but like others have said we don't know where it went from there. Could've went either way and that's where we, the viewer is left to imagine. Many observe that the act of sexual intercourse has most to do with the minds of the individuals involved, how they see themselves in their roles  and feel comfortable enough with it in order to make it enjoyable. I'm not saying that during their 20 yrs. together that Ennis never tried it, just saying that in  my humble opinion, in SNIT, Ennis was not quite ready to comfortably relinquish that much control and I don't feel that Jack would force or pressure him to in any way.

Again, I feel that they both had a preference, but there's no way we can really know. We the viewer can only speculate.. It's part of the beauty of this film, that we are left to conclude on our own , what happened in SNIT.  It really does'nt matter who *topped*, who *bottomed*. Judging from their playfullness the next morning, they both found whatever they were seeking to find in that tent and both were satisfied with the results.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

athena0204

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #348 on: Mar 29, 2008, 12:05 AM »
Hmmm, I get what you are saying, but I still believe that he was "bottom" in the SNIT. With Jack...Ennis was a completely different person than he was with everyone else. Perhaps I can't articulate it well, but there's something about the way Ennis was with Jack, and not just sexually, but emotionally, personally, etc. as well that shows that what normally applied to Ennis in larger society didn't apply to him at all when he was alone with Jack. I mean I get what you're saying and all, but I still stand by what I said. For Ennis to walk into that tent meant that when he was with Jack the "rules" no longer applied. He had already given up most of his "control" in order to set foot in that tent after all the conditioning he'd gone through in his life. From then on, giving what little "control" was left wouldn't be hard at all. SNIT heavily implied that Ennis was "bottom" that night, and he enjoyed "giving in" to Jack. It didn't have to actually show them having sex to get that point across. They both "gave" and "took" equally throughout their relationship. They were truly equals in every way, and true love allowed them to be. But it's clear that when Ennis was with Jack, he was not like the Ennis we see everywhere else. He truly was completely different with Jack, and that point comes across very well.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #349 on: Mar 29, 2008, 06:16 AM »
Hmmm, I get what you are saying, but I still believe that he was "bottom" in the SNIT. With Jack...Ennis was a completely different person than he was with everyone else. Perhaps I can't articulate it well, but there's something about the way Ennis was with Jack, and not just sexually, but emotionally, personally, etc. as well that shows that what normally applied to Ennis in larger society didn't apply to him at all when he was alone with Jack. I mean I get what you're saying and all, but I still stand by what I said. For Ennis to walk into that tent meant that when he was with Jack the "rules" no longer applied. He had already given up most of his "control" in order to set foot in that tent after all the conditioning he'd gone through in his life. From then on, giving what little "control" was left wouldn't be hard at all. SNIT heavily implied that Ennis was "bottom" that night, and he enjoyed "giving in" to Jack. It didn't have to actually show them having sex to get that point across. They both "gave" and "took" equally throughout their relationship. They were truly equals in every way, and true love allowed them to be. But it's clear that when Ennis was with Jack, he was not like the Ennis we see everywhere else. He truly was completely different with Jack, and that point comes across very well.
yer good point. i agree.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #350 on: Mar 29, 2008, 11:14 AM »
 :t)  aintfoolin,that's just what I meant; sorry if my English doesn't allow me to express myself better...Specially you've got it in these phrases:
Ennis's overall personality and the way he sees himself , his fears, his stoicism , the conflict, within himself ,Ennis is unlikely to *bottom* not even for Jack. It's not so much rejecting Jack in anyway, it's more about what Ennis has established himself to be.
Even in SNIT, it's  more about feelings and discovery of feelings than role-playing. Yes, Ennis was at his most open  with Jack, but this is still Ennis Del Mar we're talking about. He came into the tent to confirm his feelings and validate them and of course expand on what he he felt after FNIT.
Ennis imo, always thought himself the tough ,masculine ,stubborn cowboy with established rules that he could live with in every aspect of his life. To take on the *bottom* role would contradict who Ennis felt he was outside of the lovemaking.


In this last phrase specially,it's reflected what I was trying to say in former post about not losing his personal cliches and fears in "vertical" or "horizontal" positions.Our sexual behaviour,after all,is also a reflect of what we are and what we feel in the other aspects of our life; and I insist that there mustn't be a conflict between what this behaviour is and the feelings we have for our partner.Even,no matter how much we open ourselves with this person,as it's logical and obvious that Ennis opened himself with Jack,more than with somebody else after and before...For me,at least,they are two concepts that not necessary collide between each other.And for Ennis,it already was a great and unexpected step to make love with a man as to make it in some ways.IMO.

We last Jack on top, but like others have said we don't know where it went from there. Could've went either way and that's where we, the viewer is left to imagine. Many observe that the act of sexual intercourse has most to do with the minds of the individuals involved, how they see themselves in their roles  and feel comfortable enough with it in order to make it enjoyable. I'm not saying that during their 20 yrs. together that Ennis never tried it, just saying that in  my humble opinion, in SNIT, Ennis was not quite ready to comfortably relinquish that much control and I don't feel that Jack would force or pressure him to in any way.
 It really doesn't matter who *topped*, who *bottomed*. Judging from their playfullness the next morning, they both found whatever they were seeking to find in that tent and both were satisfied with the results.


And that's what really matter of the affair; they were satisfied and in love.And surely Jack was tasteful enough not to force him beyond he was willing to do,that was very much... ^f^

Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #351 on: Mar 29, 2008, 01:00 PM »
I agree, especially your last sentence.

 It is a matter of of human nature, how much of our true selves are we willing to  comfortably give up ,sexually or otherwise,to another person? and still retain our basic identity?  When it come to love most have done things that they said they'd never do in the name of love, but it's a  step by step process  according to the situation. imo.
 I suppose it's almost like couples stepping out of the *boundaries* of *traditional* sex and sampling the many other  branches of sexuality. in order to *spice up* their sex lives. If one half the couple feels uncomfortable with their role or position, and reluctant, this can be a turn off. I feel that sex is really all in the mind, where thought processes begin.  Keeping this in mind, a *bottom* Ennis in SNIT, even though he came willingly into the tent ready to accept his feelins for Jack and seeking confirmation of them in Jack's eyes, does not mean he was willing to change what/who he basically thought himself to be. the masculine, self-identifying, fearful, reluctant, controlling ,  and conflicted person he showed himself to be throughout the whole relationship. Even at the expense of Jack's emotional wee-being.

 Even in the end, the phrase *bottom" can have various conotations.  Either way Jack or Ennis could have *topped* or bottomed* depending on the position. I would'nt change a thing except a longer scene of this, but  on the other hand,the element of it being *left to the imagination* of the viewer is inticing, and opens up wonderful, intriquing discussions such as this. Imo, Ennis was Ennis, in and out of the sack. We can respectfully agree to disagree about this and I respect everyone's opinion here. There is a good and fair case to be made from each one's perspective, and I also respect that. It's a tribute to this great film that we can see things differently and contributes to the beauty of this forum.  I luv it. Thanx.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #352 on: Mar 29, 2008, 01:05 PM »
Correction above..---"Jack's well-being" :t)
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #353 on: Mar 29, 2008, 01:07 PM »
Correction above..---"Jack's well-being" :t)
you should use the edit tool that way no one knows :P i always make spelling mistakes and when i realise i just edit them in the origional and no one knows :P

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #354 on: Mar 29, 2008, 01:09 PM »
you should use the edit tool that way no one knows :P i always make spelling mistakes and when i realise i just edit them in the origional and no one knows :P

thing is we know, because they're still there.  :8
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #355 on: Mar 29, 2008, 01:11 PM »
 :t) to you too¡ And


AMEN TO ALL YOU´VE SAID¡    (:)

Another correction on the part of me: Ennis wasn't willing to change into some practices,but I don't think it was at the expense of Jack's emotional well-being.Jack,and whoever is in love,felt good only for fulfilling his lover's wishes and see he was also feeling well by being himself,by giving and be given.That's real love.Thanks again.


P.S.: Don´t worry about your spelling mistakes,because if so,I would have to commit suicide... :8
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #356 on: Mar 29, 2008, 01:25 PM »
thing is we know, because they're still there.  :8
well spelling isnt my fortay (see i dont know how to spell that word i mean is it fortay fortae i dont know :P)

Offline orangetruck

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #357 on: Mar 29, 2008, 01:27 PM »
well spelling isnt my fortay (see i dont know how to spell that word i mean is it fortay fortae i dont know :P)

Well spelling isn't all that crucial, imo -- as long as we can all understand each other.

And for the relevance of the thread, SCREW spelling! Screw it right in the tent, on all fours!  ;D
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #358 on: Mar 29, 2008, 01:31 PM »
Well spelling isn't all that crucial, imo -- as long as we can all understand each other.

And for the relevance of the thread, SCREW spelling! Screw it right in the tent, on all fours!  ;D

So,don´t we change the sexual scenes,then?  #)    :8 
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?
« Reply #359 on: Mar 29, 2008, 01:41 PM »
So,don´t we change the sexual scenes,then?  #)    :8 

 Yes, I think that's what he ment...oops...meant... ;) ;) 8) 8) ;D ;D, but yes, I feel embarrassed at times for my  STILL computer illiteracy. I sometimes refer to to my PC as my *instrument of confusion*! :) :) :t) :t) :t)
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...