Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?

[manhattangirl]

The scene I would have like to seen something of that sexual connection was when Ennis had his arm around Jack sleeping in the tent.  If there was a just a glimpse of love making something that would have shown us that after twenty years, and all the doubts and pain, that the passion, and the need was still there. 

Getting it on doesn't stop at 40. 

[smartestsonia]

The scene I would have like to seen something of that sexual connection was when Ennis had his arm around Jack sleeping in the tent.  If there was a just a glimpse of love making something that would have shown us that after twenty years, and all the doubts and pain, that the passion, and the need was still there. 

Getting it on doesn't stop at 40. 

I agree completely

[atalley]

Have ya' ever stopped to think how long our version of BBM would be?  We might still be watching!

[sportstalk23]

The scene I would have like to seen something of that sexual connection was when Ennis had his arm around Jack sleeping in the tent.  If there was a just a glimpse of love making something that would have shown us that after twenty years, and all the doubts and pain, that the passion, and the need was still there. 

Getting it on doesn't stop at 40. 

especially when your as hot as these 2 were portrating 40

[rimasworld]

The scene I would have like to seen something of that sexual connection was when Ennis had his arm around Jack sleeping in the tent.  If there was a just a glimpse of love making something that would have shown us that after twenty years, and all the doubts and pain, that the passion, and the need was still there. 

Getting it on doesn't stop at 40. 

I agree, and it would have been nice to have seen some affection going on with them in between Jack touching Ennis' cheek in the reunion trip and the ending scene where they were holding each other in the tent (btw that scene was way too brief). Some hugging and kissing would have been nice because we know they had to do lots of it. I still don't see why they deleted that scene where they embraced at the beginning of their last trip. 

[pattyjean]

ok I know this doesnt exactly qualify as a "love scene" but I would make the shirtless wrestling a lil longer show what was going on under that hat, and take out the pervy skeezy aguirre and it would be even more perfect especially what was going on under that hat

Yes, a bit more erotica during the shirtless de-hatting of Jack by Ennis would have been superb in the film.  Sleazy Aguirre was pretty much a pain in the ass, eh?  Aguirre could have used his full moon "night vision" to note that the boys were sleeping together inside the tent every night:  That way, he would have stuck to the story line and still arrive at the same conclusion about their relationship.  It just kills me to think that Aguirre watched the sacred lovemaking of Jack and Ennis that morning right out in front of God and everyone!  Such a disgusting tactless lowlife pervert he was!   

[tpe]

The scene I would have like to seen something of that sexual connection was when Ennis had his arm around Jack sleeping in the tent.  If there was a just a glimpse of love making something that would have shown us that after twenty years, and all the doubts and pain, that the passion, and the need was still there. 

Getting it on doesn't stop at 40. 

I agree.  But there is something more to be seen in the casual embrace of long-time lovers than in the passionate kisses of brand new ones...

[atalley]

Yeah, kind of saying "all is right with the world as long as we have each other on this Mt."...I know I just love to be "spooned".  I feel so protected by my husband; what a wonderful, peaceful feeling.

[pattyjean]

Yeah, kind of saying "all is right with the world as long as we have each other on this Mt."...I know I just love to be "spooned".  I feel so protected by my husband; what a wonderful, peaceful feeling.

Yes atalley:  "Spooning" with my husband, my lover, or my Chihuahua Carlos can be sooo warm and soothing...
 

[rimasworld]

Yes atalley:  "Spooning" with my husband, my lover, or my Chihuahua Carlos can be sooo warm and soothing...
 

Awwwwww 

[tpe]

I think what a long-term relationship brings to the table is a sense of belonging -- of being relaxed in one's love, and knowing that you are at peace with one another and with one's passions.

[myprivatejack]

I think what a long-term relationship brings to the table is a sense of belonging -- of being relaxed in one's love, and knowing that you are at peace with one another and with one's passions.

Yes,IMO,Ennis and Jack had got this sense of relax,of easiness being with one another; this doesn't mean that the passion was not present in their private life,however.But,let's say,somehow they had grown old together.

[tpe]

Yes,IMO,Ennis and Jack had got this sense of relax,of easiness being with one another; this doesn't mean that the passion was not present in their private life,however.But,let's say,somehow they had grown old together.

I think what is more important than the sense of passion is the quiet sense of being one with someone.  The embrace in that scene inside the tent before the last confrontation is symbolic of that oneness.  It is not a coincidnece that what Jack craved for to the very last is quiet contentment of the Dozy Embrace.

[manhattangirl]

I think what is more important than the sense of passion is the quiet sense of being one with someone.  The embrace in that scene inside the tent before the last confrontation is symbolic of that oneness.  It is not a coincidnece that what Jack craved for to the very last is quiet contentment of the Dozy Embrace.

This is so true, How many times we are not with our lover for some reason.  We don't think of the sex, (well some of us), we think of the peaceful feeling of oneness with that person, that feeling of connection to the rest of the world no one else can give us but our lover.   I think that how Jack and Ennis felt, no matter what went on in their lives, they still crave to be near each other, they found that peaceful feeling of being one with each other.  Hope this makes sense.

[lancecowboy]

Yes atalley:  "Spooning" with my husband, my lover, or my Chihuahua Carlos can be sooo warm and soothing...
 

Awwwwww 

This is so true, How many times we are not with our lover for some reason.  We don't think of the sex, (well some of us), we think of the peaceful feeling of oneness with that person, that feeling of connection to the rest of the world no one else can give us but our lover.   I think that how Jack and Ennis felt, no matter what went on in their lives, they still crave to be near each other, they found that peaceful feeling of being one with each other.  Hope this makes sense.

All your wonderful words remind me of the words in a song - loving you is so easy. 

[pattyjean]

I think what a long-term relationship brings to the table is a sense of belonging -- of being relaxed in one's love, and knowing that you are at peace with one another and with one's passions.

But to be honest, I've never experienced both with one man.  Just hate "baring my soul" as Heath/Ennis liked to do.  In my youth I had a few steady boyfriends, but there was only one whom I truly loved, and he is not the one I married!  He was 16 and I was 17 (and leaving for college) so I just let him fade away!  We were, as Jake said, "a ying and a yang, which together made a whole".  We were romantically and passionately in love even though I never "knew" him in the Biblical sense.  Regrets, I have a few...
I was wondering if any other Brokies have had similar experiences, or if some of you are living the dream!

[keren_b]

But to be honest, I've never experienced both with one man.  Just hate "baring my soul" as Heath/Ennis liked to do.  In my youth I had a few steady boyfriends, but there was only one whom I truly loved, and he is not the one I married!  He was 16 and I was 17 (and leaving for college) so I just let him fade away!  We were, as Jake said, "a ying and a yang, which together made a whole".  We were romantically and passionately in love even though I never "knew" him in the Biblical sense.  Regrets, I have a few...
I was wondering if any other Brokies have had similar experiences, or if some of you are living the dream!

Pattyjean, it's OT to this thread, but you can check the stories here: 

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=3771.0

[pattyjean]

Pattyjean, it's OT to this thread, but you can check the stories here: 

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=3771.0

TY keren:  I honestly thought I was still on the "straight women" thread when I wrote my sob story. 
The thread you linked me with is even better for baring one's soul...   

[tpe]

This is so true, How many times we are not with our lover for some reason.  We don't think of the sex, (well some of us), we think of the peaceful feeling of oneness with that person, that feeling of connection to the rest of the world no one else can give us but our lover.   I think that how Jack and Ennis felt, no matter what went on in their lives, they still crave to be near each other, they found that peaceful feeling of being one with each other.  Hope this makes sense.

It certainly makes sense to me, MG.  That sense of peace through proximity is not easily achieved.  It must be built up over the years...

[tpe]

Pattyjean, it's OT to this thread, but you can check the stories here: 

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=3771.0

Thanks keren!  I was about to reference this same thread when I read Pattyjean's post...

[orangetruck]

This is so true, How many times we are not with our lover for some reason.  We don't think of the sex, (well some of us), we think of the peaceful feeling of oneness with that person, that feeling of connection to the rest of the world no one else can give us but our lover.   I think that how Jack and Ennis felt, no matter what went on in their lives, they still crave to be near each other, they found that peaceful feeling of being one with each other.  Hope this makes sense.

I got a ditto on this, too  Nicely said, MG.

It certainly makes sense to me, MG.  That sense of peace through proximity is not easily achieved.  It must be built up over the years...

And tpe, I like what you say about peace through proximity. It's tricky for me because while I understand, there was a time with someone special when I felt he would be in my life, through all its phases. Practically, he was as far as my eyes would see. It didn't mean I saw less; he was more or less the opaque proximity of my world.

What gets me about the insight you shared is "peace", because now I can see the peace I felt with him could have been nothing more than the necessity of light. It was somehow like second nature to know the most beautiful infinite thing would be to share intimacy with this person. With Ennis and Jack, it was like this lunar, reserved spot one could escape to, somewhere out of this world yet under each step he put on the earth.

It's like looking for means to survive on a planet and only finding oxygen. To find the real peace that you suggest only builds with time, I think one has to know the trust that he may stray, that the other may as well. Time goes on, and he keeps coming back. Sequentially, love kept further reaching out, and it always returned; each pulsation enlarges the circumference around where it all started. And one day it grows into that world, that piece of peace one may eventually claim. Like Thomas says, I think it must take time. You got to breathe.

That's what Jack and Ennis (sometimes barely) did. They kept that "light" they found on Brokeback that summer, and they held onto it as they watched not their lives mold to the material world around them but their futures forever reserve their infinite spot in the mountains.

Thanks for sending me through a loop, pal. I hope the reasons why I agree with your statement came through 

[tpe]

And tpe, I like what you say about peace through proximity. It's tricky for me because while I understand, there was a time with someone special when I felt he would be in my life, through all its phases. Practically, he was as far as my eyes would see. It didn't mean I saw less; he was more or less the opaque proximity of my world.

What gets me about the insight you shared is "peace", because now I can see the peace I felt with him could have been nothing more than the necessity of light. It was somehow like second nature to know the most beautiful infinite thing would be to share intimacy with this person. With Ennis and Jack, it was like this lunar, reserved spot one could escape to, somewhere out of this world yet under each step he put on the earth.

It's like looking for means to survive on a planet and only finding oxygen. To find the real peace that you suggest only builds with time, I think one has to know the trust that he may stray, that the other may as well. Time goes on, and he keeps coming back. Sequentially, love kept further reaching out, and it always returned; each pulsation enlarges the circumference around where it all started. And one day it grows into that world, that piece of peace one may eventually claim. Like Thomas says, I think it must take time. You got to breathe.

That's what Jack and Ennis (sometimes barely) did. They kept that "light" they found on Brokeback that summer, and they held onto it as they watched not their lives mold to the material world around them but their futures forever reserve their infinite spot in the mountains.

Thanks for sending me through a loop, pal. I hope the reasons why I agree with your statement came through 

Thanks for sharing this, orangetruck. 

I think that for me these days, it is not always a matter of finding peace with oneself and another -- it increasingly becomes a search for equilibrium.  I hope I am not going to confuse you here, because I find it difficult to express to others what I mean by this. 

Sometimes, finding equilibrium turns out to be finding peace in the arms and love of another.  Sometimes, it means a parting of ways -- even if it means reaching a separate peace.    Sometimes, finding equilibrium simply means a flux between peace and strife.  It can be most unstable, even though one is at rest with oneself and with others.

There is no one sense to the meaning of finding equilibrium.  It depends on the person or persons involved.  And it can mean a certain movement -- as in the case of Ennis and Jack, up until that movement is arrested. 

But the search for equilibrium may not always bring peace, although we can reach a kind of quietude through time, distance, and separation.

The key is to realize that equilibrium is a resting point that we can perhaps go back to again and again, or something wherein we continue to move on in search of the next station.

Either way -- there is a sense of being on a journey.  It is through this sense of movement that we all seem to strive to glimpse the light.

[orangetruck]

Thanks for sharing this, orangetruck. 

I think that for me these days, it is not always a matter of finding peace with oneself and another -- it increasingly becomes a search for equilibrium.  I hope I am not going to confuse you here, because I find it difficult to express to others what I mean by this. 

Sometimes, finding equilibrium turns out to be finding peace in the arms and love of another.  Sometimes, it means a parting of ways -- even if it means reaching a separate peace.    Sometimes, finding equilibrium simply means a flux between peace and strife.  It can be most unstable, even though one is at rest with oneself and with others.

There is no one sense to the meaning of finding equilibrium.  It depends on the person or persons involved.  And it can mean a certain movement -- as in the case of Ennis and Jack, up until that movement is arrested. 

But the search for equilibrium may not always bring peace, although we can reach a kind of quietude through time, distance, and separation.

The key is to realize that equilibrium is a resting point that we can perhaps go back to again and again, or something wherein we continue to move on in search of the next station.

Either way -- there is a sense of being on a journey.  It is through this sense of movement that we all seem to strive to glimpse the light.

Very enlightening. Equilibrium gets my vote hands down.

What ultimately comes to my mind is fate, and this other person with which we share this movement looks like its catalyst. Whether the relationship is meant to last, or to simply comprise the individual's future, both scenarios serve to authenticate a man's history, thereby perhaps underlying the balance between past and future. I see equilibrium as the present. And however the outside world treated Jack and Ennis, it was one foot back on Brokeback and in that moment everything in its right place. Not the same outside where wars against the individual were bound to breakout on him like acne, especially back in the 60's.

Yet as it would sit, equilibrium is the bottom line - - or maybe make that middle line. And a couple times a year that's exactly where they'd be. No character flaws, no staples on bulletins of homophobia, no real tire irons, just that particular moment. It was even the breaking point of Earl's picture. It was the present, this kind of compromise between society and nature, which truly felt like their own when they were with each other. But at the very least I have to think equilibrium and peace are along the same line, even if the latter is notoriously temp. 

This said, you mention equilibrium can sometimes mean peace, and separation other times. Could we consider that equilibrium was represented for Ennis in the two shirts he kept in his closet? One can say the love of his life had finally been arrested, and the other might say that his own war was now over. Sobering, yes. If nothing else. 

Equilibrium is like the present in that they're both under the same influence, and also like that spot up on Brokeback where even after 20 years their love never tilted backwards or into the future, and never gets old.

[tpe]

Hello orangetruck.

At the risk of going so very out of topic on this thread, I will say that yes, I think Ennis reached a kind of equilibrium in the ned.  It is this equilibrium that allowed him the grace to accept his daughter's invitation.  If at all, he is certain of his love and faithfulness. 

Linking this with the subject at hand, there is one scene that I would not change -- and that it SNIT.  At this moment, I can argue that Ennis was ata point of equilibrium between his love and his fears.  We see later that this equilibrium didn't stop him from drifting away from what was really in his heart.  The sense of movement did not exactly bring him to the place he and Jack had hoped for/longed for.  But in the end, Ennis did reach some form of equilibrium, if only because he had made a separate peace.

[orangetruck]

Hello orangetruck.

At the risk of going so very out of topic on this thread, I will say that yes, I think Ennis reached a kind of equilibrium in the ned.  It is this equilibrium that allowed him the grace to accept his daughter's invitation.  If at all, he is certain of his love and faithfulness. 

Linking this with the subject at hand, there is one scene that I would not change -- and that it SNIT.  At this moment, I can argue that Ennis was ata point of equilibrium between his love and his fears.  We see later that this equilibrium didn't stop him from drifting away from what was really in his heart.  The sense of movement did not exactly bring him to the place he and Jack had hoped for/longed for.  But in the end, Ennis did reach some form of equilibrium, if only because he had made a separate peace.

Like not exactly reaching what was hoped for, but being teetered onto that step closer to his daughter.

If stoic Ennis didn't know love before, that is the difference now. What now seems to have been robbed from him for so many years, could now be seen as the weight that pulls the blinds just sufficiently from his eyes..

He would probably come to know that peace existed, could have remained. Just maybe not in this lifetime.

[tpe]

Like not exactly reaching what was hoped for, but being teetered onto that step closer to his daughter.

If stoic Ennis didn't know love before, that is the difference now. What now seems to have been robbed from him for so many years, could now be seen as the weight that pulls the blinds just sufficiently from his eyes..

He would probably come to know that peace existed, could have remained. Just maybe not in this lifetime.

Yes, I don't think it ended the way he had hoped it to end.  But isn't life like this most of the time?  Yes, this equilibrium allowed him to respond to his daughter's love.  It gave Ennis a place to stand, in terms of love.

The equilibrium didn't exactly lift the weight from him, nor did it open his eyes completly to the light.  Nor will it likely bring him peace in his lifeime.  The same can be said about the more intimate scenes with Jack: they didn't exactly resolve things for him or give him lasting peace.  But we should undertand that it is through the absence of any lasting peace that brought them together over and over again.  It is sort of paradoxical -- that their love for each other only made them to reach out for what was beyond them.  In the end, I think that both had to come to terms with a separate peace.

[orangetruck]

Yes, I don't think it ended the way he had hoped it to end.  But isn't life like this most of the time?  Yes, this equilibrium allowed him to respond to his daughter's love.  It gave Ennis a place to stand, in terms of love.

The equilibrium didn't exactly lift the weight from him, nor did it open his eyes completly to the light.  Nor will it likely bring him peace in his lifeime.  The same can be said about the more intimate scenes with Jack: they didn't exactly resolve things for him or give him lasting peace.  But we should undertand that it is through the absence of any lasting peace that brought them together over and over again.  It is sort of paradoxical -- that their love for each other only made them to reach out for what was beyond them.  In the end, I think that both had to come to terms with a separate peace.

Nor do I think the love he had with Jack will bring peace in the future. Paradoxical, good way to put it.

I think the blinds were pulled up just enough to accept that he loved Jack, and couldn't deny his daughter relative support.

If they were bound to separate peaces, then the coming together to be intimate in the only place where it was safe, put them the closest to each other. I think because they didn't know what was happening or understand why they came back to Brokeback, this couldn't be called peace. Quite common really, that love and relationships don't always create peace.

But on the looking back, Ennis, now knowing what he's got since it's gone, understands how vast a place Brokeback had offered. It made his present atmosphere feel lonely and small. Ya seen his trailer looking out into that field? And he doesn't have this other world in the mountains to escape to now, which could be why he was reluctant to step outside. In SNIT Ennis knew what he was facing as far as crossing a line went. But he didn't know it was love he'd slipped into. What I find most paradoxical about this is that he could face his love dead on right there in the tent but it would take its leaving 20 years later for stoic Ennis to get the full affect.

I may be hopeless, as I'm inclined to find the closest thing Ennis could equate with peace who he was, is this memory, this knowledge, this power of a better place.

[tpe]

Nor do I think the love he had with Jack will bring peace in the future. Paradoxical, good way to put it.

I think the blinds were pulled up just enough to accept that he loved Jack, and couldn't deny his daughter relative support.

If they were bound to separate peaces, then the coming together to be intimate in the only place where it was safe, put them the closest to each other. I think because they didn't know what was happening or understand why they came back to Brokeback, this couldn't be called peace. Quite common really, that love and relationships don't always create peace.

But on the looking back, Ennis, now knowing what he's got since it's gone, understands how vast a place Brokeback had offered. It made his present atmosphere feel lonely and small. Ya seen his trailer looking out into that field? And he doesn't have this other world in the mountains to escape to now, which could be why he was reluctant to step outside. In SNIT Ennis knew what he was facing as far as crossing a line went. But he didn't know it was love he'd slipped into. What I find most paradoxical about this is that he could face his love dead on right there in the tent but it would take its leaving 20 years later for stoic Ennis to get the full affect.

I may be hopeless, as I'm inclined to find the closest thing Ennis could equate with peace who he was, is this memory, this knowledge, this power of a better place.

In a way, the sex scenes, especially the early ones back in 63, were done in a manner that already points to future ambiguities/incongruities that would develop between them.  Part of the reticence in these scenes speak of some degree of separateness that had not been breached.  This is why I think that the sex scenes -- though they may not be totally satisfying -- have a sure purpose in marking both intimacy and alienation.  We see the roots of separate peace in these scenes -- even in the inability of Ennis to look at Jack and recognize that it was Jack he held in his arms (as in DE) or who was in bed with him (as in the Motel scene.)

[orangetruck]

In a way, the sex scenes, especially the early ones back in 63, were done in a manner that already points to future ambiguities/incongruities that would develop between them.  Part of the reticence in these scenes speak of some degree of separateness that had not been breached.  This is why I think that the sex scenes -- though they may not be totally satisfying -- have a sure purpose in marking both intimacy and alienation.  We see the roots of separate peace in these scenes -- even in the inability of Ennis to look at Jack and recognize that it was Jack he held in his arms (as in DE) or who was in bed with him (as in the Motel scene.)

Heard. But I think somehow it had been breached. Underneath, at least. Early indications of future ambiguities is interesting, and a good point. To me they could be the duties of a tyrant, an unfortunate messenger.

I might have indentations in the brain with this subject, but the roles they take on in the (early) sex scenes seem to have already come from something predetermined. Something almost genetic. For instance, Ennis having seen Earl. Jack having not. Ennis' trauma did go deep as his sexuality or his allowance of, and it seemed to rob him of his natural being, whatever that could have been. In a sense I think Ennis' identity had been stolen from him. Separation does seem inherent in most of said scenes, but I think this can ring simply as a tendency towards different sets of inhibition; the line then having been drawn by false identity. Thanks to Earl, thanks to dad, thanks to time and place, what have you. Maybe each man had a different peace, but when one man gets X'd out, the one still living only then finds himself, in my opinion. And Ennis' former self yields to a more personable him, leaving the notion that the peace had left with Jack - - Just to entertain that Ennis had finally accepted his love for Jack, and maybe for himself. And that one was gone.

I don't disagree with the idea of separate peaces. It's just elusive ground, for me, since I still have it in my mind that his real 'birth' can be seen in his postcard of the mountains. And I'm sure he feels many things when looking at the shirts and postcard, not excluding a oneness unlikely to be felt again. A peace perhaps, but I'm having a stubborn time calling it separate; Maybe peace isn't to be fully realized until the afterlife. Maybe Jack knows.

[tpe]

Interesting comments, orangetruck.  I am sorry iof my comments about a separate peace may have brought us here on shifty ground.  As to your comment about premeditation and inhibition, I see what you mean, and I must admit that these are more than plausible.  I think we certainly cannot underestimate the Earl and Rich story and its effect on Ennis.  I think above all, "separation" traslates here to ALIENATION.  IMO, we see this aleination even in the most lyrical of sex scenes.