Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?

[orangetruck]

Interesting comments, orangetruck.  I am sorry iof my comments about a separate peace may have brought us here on shifty ground.  As to your comment about premeditation and inhibition, I see what you mean, and I must admit that these are more than plausible.  I think we certainly cannot underestimate the Earl and Rich story and its effect on Ennis.  I think above all, "separation" traslates here to ALIENATION.  IMO, we see this aleination even in the most lyrical of sex scenes. 

Ok maybe it's because I'm from Roswell, but I gotta lean on that word. Good call.

Cripes though, no sorries. Trust that at least 75% of my recent discussion here spawns from my (off and on) fixation on my overly "safe" approach to the two shirts.

I do get that way 

I think what that boils down to is how the concept felt familiar to me when I first read the synopsis of the SS in mid '05, online, which seemed to catch me in time. Oh wow, come to think of it I think y'all even have a thread made just for this kind of issue: PBS.

Will be looking into it here in the real near future, I'm sure. 
 

[tpe]

But is it really an overly "safe" approach to the two shirt? 

There is an undeniable lyricism to it, after all. 

[orangetruck]

But is it really an overly "safe" approach to the two shirt? 

There is an undeniable lyricism to it, after all. 

Impossibly undeniable   

[tpe]

The we are in agreement then. 

[orangetruck]

The we are in agreement then. 

As we often are, give or take some personal idiosyncrasies I at times seem to tangle into my projection of the film.

Brokeback is certainly difficult for me sometimes. And it's great to find the process of untangling in the forum. 

[tpe]

Well, BBM is certainly a very personal expereince, when all is said and done.  Our perception of the sex scenes is very personal.  We don't take it as is.  We have no choice but to project -- and that is why it finds so many voices ... assumes so many guises.

[hippiewannabe]

Hi, new member here!  I saw the movie before reading the SS where, as we know, there was no SNIT.  I'm personally really glad the SNIT was added - I love the depth of emotion and complete lack of dialogue - it makes the scene much more sensual.  One SS detail I thought was nice was Jack taking a drag from Ennis' cigarette in the motel scene - I think that would have added a nice intimacy to the movie.  BTW - doesn't everyone love how Ennis pulls Jack's arm tighter around him a few times?  "I didn't think I'd hear from you again (pulls arm, little smile) - I figured you was sore from that punch."  So adorable!  I have to agree with earlier posters that I would have liked to see at least one more scene when Ennis and Jack are older - how the sex had changed, how it stayed the same, kissing Jack now that he has a mustache, etc. and I wish I could have had a close up of the shirtless romping that Aguirre witnessed.  I posted on a different thread how hot I thought all the sex/kissing scenes were; I absolutely loved them.  But what made them hot was the passion and intense depth of their feelings.  I don't think a Jack/Randall scene would have affected me quite so much.

I love this website!   

[tpe]

Welcome, hippiewannabe!  And thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. 

I too am glad that the movie added some beautiful scenes like SNIT that was not in the ss.  And speaking about the motel scene, I really think the movie version is much more poetic and less visceral -- when we read the short story, we get the feeling that the setting was so sordid, and we didn't really get to see this in the movie version.  And yes, I loved that beautiful tug in the arm.  And I think jack's response was a gently rocking motion, correct?

[myprivatejack]

I agree with you Molly,as regards to the scenes you marked.Speaking about the motel scene too,I love the way it has been made;it's true that the s.s. description is that of a sordid setting,but also a little more real-a 3rd class Wyoming motel couldn't be a very nice place then...-.However,I think that letting aside the setting's look allow us to center ourselves more in the two boys,the feelings they have for each other and the way we receive the sensations all this gives us.What makes beautiful this little room is not its ornaments,but the love its walls are "breathing" in this very moment.

[tpe]

I agree with you Molly,as regards to the scenes you marked.Speaking about the motel scene too,I love the way it has been made;it's true that the s.s. description is that of a sordid setting,but also a little more real-a 3rd class Wyoming motel couldn't be a very nice place then...-.However,I think that letting aside the setting's look allow us to center ourselves more in the two boys,the feelings they have for each other and the way we receive the sensations all this gives us.What makes beautiful this little room is not its ornaments,but the love its walls are "breathing" in this very moment.

Yes, I had also been discussing this "shift" in the motel scene elsewhere.  I love the way you said "and the way we receive the sensations all this gives us".    I do think that the film version is more SENSUAL than the one envisioned in the ss.  Nothing distracts from the 2 of them.  There are no superfluous "ornaments" and distractions. 

[myprivatejack]

Yes, I had also been discussing this "shift" in the motel scene elsewhere.  I love the way you said "and the way we receive the sensations all this gives us".    I do think that the film version is more SENSUAL than the one envisioned in the ss.  Nothing distracts from the 2 of them.  There are no superfluous "ornaments" and distractions. 

Thanks,Thomas¡ Well,I only hope to have made sense with this phrase.We must keep our attention in the two of them and the love they're feeling and the one they made us feel for both of them too.Even what they're saying in that moment is superfluous;there're only Ennis and Jack,Jack and Ennis,loving each other.Who needs to know how the room is?...

[vedrana]

Hippiewannabe, u got a good point about the closure of the scene where Aquierra watchs them. At first I though he only saw them wresling. Later, I realised that he saw it all!

There is another scene (sorry if anyone already mentioned it)  -after they jump into the river on their first "fishing" after 4 years. They should have show something more there.... THEY JUST SHOULD HAVE!

Shame on me!

[aintfoolin]

Thanks,Thomas¡ Well,I only hope to have made sense with this phrase.We must keep our attention in the two of them and the love they're feeling and the one they made us feel for both of them too.Even what they're saying in that moment is superfluous;there're only Ennis and Jack,Jack and Ennis,loving each other.Who needs to know how the room is?...

 At that point, I doubt either one of them  bothered to scan the room much except one target.. the bed ..for a very long period of time!. Perhaps when they finally came up for air  and smokes were lit ,maybe they bothered to noticed the lamps and drapes. By the looks of both of them, this was intense.  Ennis looks exhausted, drained,  and barely able to stay awake..and we all  know what that means.

If I were to change a sex scene it would be FNIT, I've often thought that it woud've been nice ( for me at least) if Ennis had'nt flipped Jack over and the whole scene of love-making took place face to face. Jack may have been willing, but Ennis not so much. In any case the sex scenes were tastefully done , but with these two gorgeous cowboys, the imagination runs wild you see.

Again, more love scenes when they got older would have been delicious."Brilliant couplings" indeed. Thanx.

[vedrana]

Aintfoolin, during FNIT Ennis was not mentally able to look at Jack. He just sexually burst and that's that! Even in SNIT he could barely look at Jack's widely open and loving eyes. And the way that Jack was not only willing but also surrender himself to Ennis is too good to be true!

PS: to oppose!

[hippiewannabe]

Aintfoolin, during FNIT Ennis was not mentally able to look at Jack. He just sexually burst and that's that! Even in SNIT he could barely look at Jack's widely open and loving eyes. And the way that Jack was not only willing but also surrender himself to Ennis is too good to be true!

PS: to oppose!

I think, too, that during most of their time on the mountain that first summer, Ennis is somewhat in denial - I think AP had written as much in the SS when speaking of the dozy embrace: "Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held."  Of course in the movie, the SNIT contradicts this, since we know they are very much face to face.  But in looking at the SNIT, I notice that Ennis has trouble making direct eye contact with Jack - he's either looking down, or his eyes are closed, as you mentioned, Loreen.  I think that once we get to the reunion, Ennis has opened up more to his love for Jack and is more comfortable with face to face encounters, IMO.  Ennis is full of fear - he's unsure who he is, he is terrified of what might happen if they're discovered - maybe avoiding face to face contact makes it less "real."  Lots of food for thought!

[manhattangirl]

By the time of the reunion, Ennis knows about heterosexual love and sex during those four years away from Jack.   He almost consumes Jack when they did meet again. his passion was alive again.  whatever valley he felt himself in before,  Jack brought him back to that mountain mentally and physically, and there he wanted to stay not wanting to risk anything more.  IMO.

[aintfoolin]

Aintfoolin, during FNIT Ennis was not mentally able to look at Jack. He just sexually burst and that's that! Even in SNIT he could barely look at Jack's widely open and loving eyes. And the way that Jack was not only willing but also surrender himself to Ennis is too good to be true!

PS: to oppose!

It's OK to oppose friend, don't be sorry. It's just what I would change if circumstances were different. . Certainly during FNIT Ennis was not ready to make love face to face, hell Jack could'nt even manage a kiss off of him ... not yet. Neither was he in SNIT, but then Jack's approach was so much  more different. Ennis, just by finding the courage to enter SNIT was a huge leap!, but this time Jack took the lead in how the love-making progressed which was  much more softer and less urgent. Although Ennis did have trouble maintaining eye contact with jack, Jack held his gaze and made it more about feeling and yes, confirmation of what they both felt. This is my favorite scene in the film and I would'nt change a thing about it. It was Jack, making Ennis feel comfortable with what they both  had discovered. It was about them both discovering  a deep intimacy with each other . It was proof that true love had found them, changed them , and bonded them together for the rest of their lives. Personally, I find it on par with the DE as one of the most honest moments of truth to them that finally they had found love. Thanx.

[aintfoolin]

By the time of the reunion, Ennis knows about heterosexual love and sex during those four years away from Jack.   He almost consumes Jack when they did meet again. his passion was alive again.  whatever valley he felt himself in before,  Jack brought him back to that mountain mentally and physically, and there he wanted to stay not wanting to risk anything more.  IMO.

 Hello Manhattangirl,

I agree with every thing you've said here. Beautifully said!!

From the valley,back to the Mountain and yes it was Ennis's passion for Jack that reignited the flame to a fiery blaze once more.

I don't think even the sun could've outshown Jack for Ennis that day!

[atalley]

After listening to Heath on interviews, he was showing his nervousness in SNIT by not keeping eye contact.  (Heath said "I knew I had that to give"). 

I would have loved another scene before them "spooning" when they were older.

[orangetruck]

After listening to Heath on interviews, he was showing his nervousness in SNIT by not keeping eye contact.  (Heath said "I knew I had that to give"). 

I would have loved another scene before them "spooning" when they were older.

As would so many of us. 

[tpe]

Thanks,Thomas¡ Well,I only hope to have made sense with this phrase.We must keep our attention in the two of them and the love they're feeling and the one they made us feel for both of them too.Even what they're saying in that moment is superfluous;there're only Ennis and Jack,Jack and Ennis,loving each other.Who needs to know how the room is?...

To put it more bluntly, Jack cared only to smell the scent of Ennis above the reek and rancidity of the sordid room.  The human senses can be so selective/relative.  And as the poets have said, the smell of a lover's armpits is perfume.

 

[tpe]

At that point, I doubt either one of them  bothered to scan the room much except one target.. the bed ..for a very long period of time!. Perhaps when they finally came up for air  and smokes were lit ,maybe they bothered to noticed the lamps and drapes. By the looks of both of them, this was intense.  Ennis looks exhausted, drained,  and barely able to stay awake..and we all  know what that means.

If I were to change a sex scene it would be FNIT, I've often thought that it woud've been nice ( for me at least) if Ennis had'nt flipped Jack over and the whole scene of love-making took place face to face. Jack may have been willing, but Ennis not so much. In any case the sex scenes were tastefully done , but with these two gorgeous cowboys, the imagination runs wild you see.

Again, more love scenes when they got older would have been delicious."Brilliant couplings" indeed. Thanx.

There is something more of the "animal" in the style of love-making we see in FNIT.  We all know that this serves a very deliberate purpose, of course.  FNIT is more about raw physical desire than about love, IMO.

[tpe]

Aintfoolin, during FNIT Ennis was not mentally able to look at Jack. He just sexually burst and that's that! Even in SNIT he could barely look at Jack's widely open and loving eyes. And the way that Jack was not only willing but also surrender himself to Ennis is too good to be true!

PS: to oppose!

Very good point.  It is the looking (or lack thereof) that is most telling in those scenes.

[tpe]

I think, too, that during most of their time on the mountain that first summer, Ennis is somewhat in denial - I think AP had written as much in the SS when speaking of the dozy embrace: "Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held."  Of course in the movie, the SNIT contradicts this, since we know they are very much face to face.  But in looking at the SNIT, I notice that Ennis has trouble making direct eye contact with Jack - he's either looking down, or his eyes are closed, as you mentioned, Loreen.  I think that once we get to the reunion, Ennis has opened up more to his love for Jack and is more comfortable with face to face encounters, IMO.  Ennis is full of fear - he's unsure who he is, he is terrified of what might happen if they're discovered - maybe avoiding face to face contact makes it less "real."  Lots of food for thought!

I would like to think of FNIT and SNIT as stages in an ascent, rather than scenes in direct contradiction/contradistinction with each other.  But I know what you mean here, and -- yes -- the contrast between the two is unmistakable.

Which is why I think FNIT and SNIT should be taken as ONE unit (along with the intervening scenes).  They make sense together, and we are more loathe to chane them if we look at them as a pair.

[orangetruck]

To put it more bluntly, Jack cared only to smell the scent of Ennis above the reek and rancidity of the sordid room.  The human senses can be so selective/relative.  And as the poets have said, the smell of a lover's armpits is perfume.

 

Love it.

I think for me the bottom line is there's an acute intimacy in taking in one's lover by way of any of the 5 (6) senses, scent psychologically being the strongest connection?  

[tpe]

By the time of the reunion, Ennis knows about heterosexual love and sex during those four years away from Jack.   He almost consumes Jack when they did meet again. his passion was alive again.  whatever valley he felt himself in before,  Jack brought him back to that mountain mentally and physically, and there he wanted to stay not wanting to risk anything more.  IMO.

CONSUMES is so apt a term here, MG!  I certainly get the sense that he is trying to eat Jack whole in the Reunion kiss/embrace.  I don't think this scene would be bettered by changes.  

[tpe]

Love it.

I think for me the bottom line is there's an acute intimacy in taking in one's lover by way of any of the 5 (6) senses, scent psychologically being the strongest connection?  

I feel that sense is the most primitive -- we certainly smell before we see.

Even if we were to change the motel scene to make it more explicit, I don't think it would gaim much.  Perhaps it would even lose.  Like the sense of smell, there is power in sensing before seeing.

[tpe]

After listening to Heath on interviews, he was showing his nervousness in SNIT by not keeping eye contact.  (Heath said "I knew I had that to give"). 

I would have loved another scene before them "spooning" when they were older.

I think with age, the director sought to express a less physical attachment between them.  I am content with the scene right before the Last Confrontation.  It is not really a sex scene anymore, although I would still call it a love-making scene, even though we only see them sleeping together.

[orangetruck]

I feel that sense is the most primitive -- we certainly smell before we see.

Even if we were to change the motel scene to make it more explicit, I don't think it would gaim much.  Perhaps it would even lose.  Like the sense of smell, there is power in sensing before seeing.

I like how taste is so dependent on smell. And how, like MG says, Ennis was ready to consume Jack, tasting him, inhaling him. Like the act of his soul getting into Jack's as physically close as possible. Scent, like that especially of a dog's, is so closely tied into memory, yes? And come to think of it, with every sniff came the power of their first Summer, the birth of their love. I remember seeing the motel scene and perceiving Ennis' damp curly head and cute little ear as something almost newborn. I found it very sensually refreshing and certainly not just because they had just made love again. But more along the lines of being perfect. It was warm and aromatic.

[tpe]

I like how taste is so dependent on smell. And how, like MG says, Ennis was ready to consume Jack, tasting him, inhaling him. Like the act of his soul getting into Jack's as physically close as possible. Scent, like that especially of a dog's, is so closely tied into memory, yes? And come to think of it, with every sniff came the power of their first Summer, the birth of their love. I remember seeing the motel scene and perceiving Ennis' damp curly head and cute little ear as something almost newborn. I found it very sensually refreshing and certainly not just because they had just made love again. But more along the lines of being perfect. It was warm and aromatic.

The act of "eating" someone during love-making certainly encompases ALL the senses.  Sight, smell, taste, and touch.  We see it all in the reunion kiss.  No need to change it, IMO.  It has everything, without having the need to be any more explicit.