Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?

[vedrana]

Aren't they? 

I've said before that SNIT reaches farther than any sugar coated Hollywood love scene I've seen. It's so down to earth yet it's playing Tennis with Mars as it's ball! 

  

 

[tpe]

The timing and/or rapture of the "quick" passionate scenes is what effectively incorporates them into the bigger picture, yes? They could have easily been diluted or overshadowed..

There is a lot in BBM and the sex scnes in particular that is coded.  The terminology you use is quite apt.  And yes, the coding is also manifest in how they are incorporated into the bigger picture -- the meanings gain an extra layer of richness.

[orangetruck]

There is a lot in BBM and the sex scnes in particular that is coded.  The terminology you use is quite apt.  And yes, the coding is also manifest in how they are incorporated into the bigger picture -- the meanings gain an extra layer of richness.

For instance, to elongate:

Take FNIT and stretch it into SNIT. I can see FNIT is stunningly lyrical and (not that SNIT isn't) SNIT is more coded. If only as far as their chemistry is allowed.

Or even vise versa, depening on the perception.

[atalley]

I don't unerstand what you mean by "coded".

[orangetruck]

I don't unerstand what you mean by "coded".

Take Mary Had a Little Lamb.

No, no, not literally, put her down! 

Take the old rhyme Mary Had a Little Lamb, in English, and it's very easy to read. You could even probably predict what comes next and next. Now take the same rhyme and replace all its letters with numbers and all you get is some unfamiliar pattern which you're not sure how to read.

That said, I find in SNIT that Ennis and Jack did not know what they were doing like the back of their hand. It was a bit foreign to them. Hence, they took it slower than say, FNIT.

I hope that helped?

[tpe]

For instance, to elongate:

Take FNIT and stretch it into SNIT. I can see FNIT is stunningly lyrical and (not that SNIT isn't) SNIT is more coded. If only as far as their chemistry is allowed.

Or even vise versa, depening on the perception.

Again, this is an interesting point of view, orangetruck.  The natural thing for me is to associate lyricism with SNIT and not with FNIT as more coeded.  But thinking about this right now, I know what you mean.  FNIT can really be looked at as a careful "dance" -- in this sense, it can be thought of as lyrical.  And Jack taking Ennis to his breast in SNIT is definitely coded: one thinks subliminally of a "mother and child" -- and the same coded image is repeated in the Motel scene...

[tpe]

Take Mary Had a Little Lamb.

No, no, not literally, put her down! 

Take the old rhyme Mary Had a Little Lamb, in English, and it's very easy to read. You could even probably predict what comes next and next. Now take the same rhyme and replace all its letters with numbers and all you get is some unfamiliar pattern which you're not sure how to read.

That said, I find in SNIT that Ennis and Jack did not know what they were doing like the back of their hand. It was a bit foreign to them. Hence, they took it slower than say, FNIT.

I hope that helped?

Digression:

Another way to put it...

Do you know the nursery rhymes "What are little boys made of?"  and the accompanying rhyme entitled "What are little girls made of?"  Well, that is a perfect example of coded meanings.  For children, the rhymes are nonesensical.  For grownups, they understand the coded images.

Another famous example is the rhyme "Mary, Mary, quite contrary"

http://www.rooneydesign.com/MaryMary.htm

[vedrana]

Again, this is an interesting point of view, orangetruck.  The natural thing for me is to associate lyricism with SNIT and not with FNIT as more coeded.  But thinking about this right now, I know what you mean.  FNIT can really be looked at as a careful "dance" -- in this sense, it can be thought of as lyrical.  And Jack taking Ennis to his breast in SNIT is definitely coded: one thinks subliminally of a "mother and child" -- and the same coded image is repeated in the Motel scene...

Hm.. this is new for me. I never looked at their relationship, embrace and kissing like some coded family relations. I only saw the pure lust, but not only physical, more as a result of their mental adhesion to each other. It's only that Jack was braver side ( probably experienced) who gave Ennis courage to approach their sexual contact as something natural and normal. That's why he is the initiator, and leader in the game, as well as comforting side in all situations.... Ennis played well too, in this sex game! 

Anyway, I'll chew on this one! It's worthy! 

[atalley]

Loreen...I've always looked at the 2 scenes in this light too.

[vedrana]

Loreen...I've always looked at the 2 scenes in this light too.

Hm.. wait a sec  ... in which light' As mother and a child? Or pure lust? Please explain! 

[atalley]

Hi Loreen...I see the FNIT as their passion (lust) taking control.  As for SNIT, I see their love & getting to know 1 another more intimately.

[BlueMountain]

I think it was love, lust and passion for each other

[vedrana]

Hi Loreen...I see the FNIT as their passion (lust) taking control.  As for SNIT, I see their love & getting to know 1 another more intimately.

OK! I thought so! I agree with you here! It's just that IMO lust they felt for each other was beyond their power to controll themselves. It was obvious in each sex scene and that's what made FNIT, SNIT and the reunion kiss so extremely sensational.

As a viewer I feel extremely awkward when Aguirre saw them wrestling and kissing each other (and probably all the rest). I felt at that moment as if the purity of their relationship was polluted with his look as he showed undisguised repugnance. His reaction was so far away from mine during that lovely scene, that it made me highly uncomfortable. The rest of E&J days on the mountain were spoiled bacause this greedy bad man. 

[FlwrChild]

I love manhattangirl's description here. And I agree that the images presented allow us to see at a glance how much these two people love each other and are bound together, both in their passion and their love. While longer scenes might have given us more of that love and passion to watch play out, it wasn't needed to convey the message.

When I watch the scenes of them together I look at the way Jack grabs Ennis's arm in the FNIT, to pull him closer into him.  I think of  in the SNIT the way Ennis caresses Jack.  I think of the reunion scene when in front of god and everybody Ennis couldn't contain himself himself and slaps Jack's hat off his head and kisses him more passionately then he ever kissed Alma, or when their in the motel room and Ennis lays in Jack's arms, obliviously spent, and at peace. 

These scenes in itself are so moving, and so emotionally charged as close to showing love between two men, as pure as simple as any love scene between men and women.  It could be argue it could be longer, but why? When it hit us that first split second on seeing it, that these two were in love, and "we know the rest". JMO

I also think that on some level anyway, these scenes are probably intentionally short, meant to leave us with that same sense that Jack and Ennis themselves always had of never enough time, never enough, in order for us to better understand how they felt and give us a deeper entry into their hearts.

[orangetruck]

Again, this is an interesting point of view, orangetruck.  The natural thing for me is to associate lyricism with SNIT and not with FNIT as more coeded.  But thinking about this right now, I know what you mean.  FNIT can really be looked at as a careful "dance" -- in this sense, it can be thought of as lyrical.  And Jack taking Ennis to his breast in SNIT is definitely coded: one thinks subliminally of a "mother and child" -- and the same coded image is repeated in the Motel scene...

Yes, and also they were so drunk and spontaneous in FNIT that their emotions, their history and their consciousness didn't at some level exist. In SNIT, you could not just burn the material and go to bed. This was one man shaking hands with the other. That can be lyrical in one sense. In another, it can be coded as every move in SNIT did require the strict attention (or spirituality) of each man. I think it all depends on the magnifying glass being or not being used, which goes for both nights.

[vedrana]

I also think that on some level anyway, these scenes are probably intentionally short, meant to leave us with that same sense that Jack and Ennis themselves always had of never enough time, never enough, in order for us to better understand how they felt and give us a deeper entry into their hearts.

This could be one logical explanation of brutal interuption of all intimate scenes! Good point! 

[tpe]

Hm.. this is new for me. I never looked at their relationship, embrace and kissing like some coded family relations. I only saw the pure lust, but not only physical, more as a result of their mental adhesion to each other. It's only that Jack was braver side ( probably experienced) who gave Ennis courage to approach their sexual contact as something natural and normal. That's why he is the initiator, and leader in the game, as well as comforting side in all situations.... Ennis played well too, in this sex game! 

Anyway, I'll chew on this one! It's worthy! 

For me, FNIT was more about pure lust.  The SNIT was as much about love as it was sex, IMO.  I think this progression is good as it is.  And by "mother and child", I did not mean it was something about family relations; it was more about Jack being protective about Ennis, as a mother who reassures a scared and uncertain child.

[tpe]

Yes, and also they were so drunk and spontaneous in FNIT that their emotions, their history and their consciousness didn't at some level exist. In SNIT, you could not just burn the material and go to bed. This was one man shaking hands with the other. That can be lyrical in one sense. In another, it can be coded as every move in SNIT did require the strict attention (or spirituality) of each man. I think it all depends on the magnifying glass being or not being used, which goes for both nights.

I do agree that SNIT was more about connection -- as you said, in a more spiritual plane.  There was definitely more to it than raw passion, and the tenderness of the scene is a hint that it's not just about pure physical gratification.

The long drawn out kiss is a clear indication of this.

[tpe]

I also think that on some level anyway, these scenes are probably intentionally short, meant to leave us with that same sense that Jack and Ennis themselves always had of never enough time, never enough, in order for us to better understand how they felt and give us a deeper entry into their hearts.

Exactly, the shortness opf the scenes are so tantalizing.  It makes the audience share the feeling of borrowed time -- as Ennis and Jack would have felt it.

[vedrana]

For me, FNIT was more about pure lust.  The SNIT was as much about love as it was sex, IMO.  I think this progression is good as it is.  And by "mother and child", I did not mean it was something about family relations; it was more about Jack being protective about Ennis, as a mother who reassures a scared and uncertain child.

In FNIT I also see a lot of their love and connection, I see Jack consoling Ennis, waiting until he's calmed down after the first shock ( ),  trying to caress his face, and Ennis who is firstly defendind by grabbing Jack's shirt, later also touches his face with love and sensual expectations... they had it all there, it was just not so open as neither of them (particularly Ennis) had no courage to put 2 and 2 together. (Unfortunately, the same bad math in the future years cost them a whole beautiful world of sweet life...) But IMO, even it was the pure lust, the feelings were there, very visible IMO.

As for SNIT, well - there are often 2 sides in a relationship, one braver, seducing and comforting, and the other one - shy follower, who need encouragement and consolation. In SNIT was more than obvious who's who! 

Amazingly, the whole package - their emotions and their physical experience J&H perfectly passed to the viewers. I already said this: I felt like I was there in the tent, that miraculous it was! 

[tpe]

In FNIT I also see a lot of their love and connection, I see Jack consoling Ennis, waiting until he's calmed down after the first shock ( ),  trying to caress his face, and Ennis who is firstly defendind by grabbing Jack's shirt, later also touches his face with love and sensual expectations... they had it all there, it was just not so open as neither of them (particularly Ennis) had no courage to put 2 and 2 together. (Unfortunately, the same bad math in the future years cost them a whole beautiful world of sweet life...) But IMO, even it was the pure lust, the feelings were there, very visible IMO.

As for SNIT, well - there are often 2 sides in a relationship, one braver, seducing and comforting, and the other one - shy follower, who need encouragement and consolation. In SNIT was more than obvious who's who! 

Amazingly, the whole package - their emotions and their physical experience J&H perfectly passed to the viewers. I already said this: I felt like I was there in the tent, that miraculous it was! 

Interesting point of view on FNIT, loreen, because I had always looked upon FNIT as an almost desperate act on Jack's part.  It is as if Jack is telling himself: "To hell with caution.  I'll have him, whether or not he's ready to face the music..."

Still, what you say here makes sense, although it differs slightly from my own impression.  Very interesting.

[vedrana]

Interesting point of view on FNIT, loreen, because I had always looked upon FNIT as an almost desperate act on Jack's part.  It is as if Jack is telling himself: "To hell with caution.  I'll have him, whether or not he's ready to face the music..."
Still, what you say here makes sense, although it differs slightly from my own impression.  Very interesting.

.. the music??... Oh, God, this is funny!!!   I never heard of this expression, but it sounds like a music to me! 

Yes, tpe, I think that FNIT just had to have their emotions involved and it was shown through some very small gestures. At first I also couldn't see it, I thought that it was just a sexual burst - jump and over!

Now I realized that they couldn't have just jumped into it, and the very next day during SNIT suddenly to be in love, showing so much tenderness and affection that could melt anyone. There was much more in that tent during first night.

But please, feel free to oppose. I'd be more than glad to hear you opinion. Your point of view offten helped me a lot! 

[tpe]

Well, no need to oppose that much.    IN the FNIT, both of them were like springs that had just been released of all their potential energy, and it is reasonable to see that all that energy was not just sexual energy.  You are probably correct in saying that there is a lot of emotional potential energy involved here.  It was both an emotional as well as sexual release...

[vedrana]

Well, no need to oppose that much.    IN the FNIT, both of them were like springs that had just been released of all their potential energy, and it is reasonable to see that all that energy was not just sexual energy.  You are probably correct in saying that there is a lot of emotional potential energy involved here.  It was both an emotional as well as sexual release...

And for guy like Ennis only touching Jack's face in such a manner is a BIG sign of his affection. 

Sexual side of the scene is more than obvious (it is sex!), but we just need a time to figure out other lovely details, meticulously prepared by Ang Lee and H&J.

[manhattangirl]

 FNIT- Jack was doing what was natural,  it wasn't so much as a come on.  more of a natural thing in his mind, he wanted Ennis's touch, they mentally bonded, emotionally bonded.  it all led to him in his mind to the physical.  It just took Ennis a minute longer to figure it out.   That's why Ennis out of instinct didn't puunch the hell our of him, but out of instinct held on to him. 

We've look at this scene as Jack coming on to him.  it wasn't a come on,  more like a reaching out to a lover in the night, we've all done this without thinking, we turn to our lover and it just happens.  It's Ennis who had to learn what this meant.   It always took Jack to show Ennis the way.  I love this scene.

JMO.

[tpe]

And for guy like Ennis only touching Jack's face in such a manner is a BIG sign of his affection. 

Sexual side of the scene is more than obvious (it is sex!), but we just need a time to figure out other lovely details, meticulously prepared by Ang Lee and H&J.

Well, we are only shown the foreplay in SNIT, and not exactly the sex (as in FNIT)  Still, the beauty of this scene lies exactly in its romanticism and lush but quiet emotionalism.  It is good as it is, IMO. 

[tpe]

FNIT- Jack was doing what was natural,  it wasn't so much as a come on.  more of a natural thing in his mind, he wanted Ennis's touch, they mentally bonded, emotionally bonded.  it all led to him in his mind to the physical.  It just took Ennis a minute longer to figure it out.   That's why Ennis out of instinct didn't puunch the hell our of him, but out of instinct held on to him. 

We've look at this scene as Jack coming on to him.  it wasn't a come on,  more like a reaching out to a lover in the night, we've all done this without thinking, we turn to our lover and it just happens.  It's Ennis who had to learn what this meant.   It always took Jack to show Ennis the way.  I love this scene.

JMO.

Ennis's hesitation in FNIT is a crucial detail, as you rightfully point out MG.  Perhaps Ennis was thinking or fighting with himself in that pause: whether to ounch Jack or give in to his desires. 

And yes, as far as the FNIT goes, the overture was on Jack's part, but the control quickly shifted to Ennis (and Jack allowed it willingly.)  So yes, it is more like a reaching out -- bridging the samll gap between them so that Ennis himself could cross.

 

[vedrana]

Well, we are only shown the foreplay in SNIT, and not exactly the sex (as in FNIT)  Still, the beauty of this scene lies exactly in its romanticism and lush but quiet emotionalism.  It is good as it is, IMO. 

Hm... in fact I was reffering to FNIT when saying that it was sex! I mean... i can usualle recognize it on the screen....

[vedrana]

FNIT- Jack was doing what was natural,  it wasn't so much as a come on.  more of a natural thing in his mind, he wanted Ennis's touch, they mentally bonded, emotionally bonded.  it all led to him in his mind to the physical.  It just took Ennis a minute longer to figure it out.   That's why Ennis out of instinct didn't puunch the hell our of him, but out of instinct held on to him. 

We've look at this scene as Jack coming on to him.  it wasn't a come on,  more like a reaching out to a lover in the night, we've all done this without thinking, we turn to our lover and it just happens.  It's Ennis who had to learn what this meant.   It always took Jack to show Ennis the way.  I love this scene.

JMO.

Yes MG! 

I agree with this -emotional and mental bonds were already there. And Jack, as a leader took a step more to lead their relationship to the physical.

The scene is great, because it's the one when all the walls between Ennis and Jack crumbled down.

In SNIT they only remove the wall ruins and every possibility was open. 

[myprivatejack]

Yes MG! 

I agree with this -emotional and mental bonds were already there. And Jack, as a leader took a step more to lead their relationship to the physical.

The scene is great, because it's the one when all the walls between Ennis and Jack crumbled down.

In SNIT they only remove the wall ruins and every possibility was open. 

Loreen,I love the way you compare the two nights: In SNIT they only remove the wall ruins and every possibility was open. Even if I think that the only possibility that was open that second night was the one of discovering themselves in every sense and feel free as they wouldn't be anymore.