Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?

[tpe]

 

You beat me here! I never expected this!

I should have asked for 3 or 4 names! 

 

I would have added Alma and Lureen then!   

Back to the topic: strictly speaking, FNIT was the only sex scene in the movie, correct?  Well, perhaps we should add SNIT and the Motel scene, but you really don't see them directly engaged in intercourse in both of them.  Is this too narrow a definition for a sex scene?  Perhaps the lack of explicitness in the SNIT and motel scenes makes some of us feel that they should have shown more?

[vedrana]

I would have added Alma and Lureen then!  

Back to the topic: strictly speaking, FNIT was the only sex scene in the movie, correct?  Well, perhaps we should add SNIT and the Motel scene, but you really don't see them directly engaged in intercourse in both of them.  Is this too narrow a definition for a sex scene?  Perhaps the lack of explicitness in the SNIT and motel scenes makes some of us feel that they should have shown more?

I always thought that all the sex (and in any kind intimate) scenes were not enough and in a way brutally cut of. But also, there are more average moviegoer who believe that these scenes were more than enough. They were the pointer for Ang Lee.

Maybe they should have made 2 versions -one for the majority, and the other for Brokies. Our would be 3-4 hours long.... 

[BlueMountain]

I always thought that all the sex (and in any kind intimate) scenes were not enough and in a way brutally cut of. But also, there are more average moviegoer who believe that these scenes were more than enough. They were the pointer for Ang Lee.

Maybe they should have made 2 versions -one for the majority, and the other for Brokies. Our would be 3-4 hours long.... 

I would of taken out Loreen's "explicent" scene I was so surprized by that. Very unexpected for Anne Hathaway!

[vedrana]

I would of taken out Loreen's "explicent" scene I was so surprized by that. Very unexpected for Anne Hathaway!

Believe me, Jack was even more surprised! 

But he endured it like always! 

[Lobsel-Vith]

I would of taken out Loreen's "explicent" scene I was so surprized by that. Very unexpected for Anne Hathaway!

I could not agree with you more! I've seen Anne's previous roles and that was absolutely shocking to me to see that. Plus I think it wasn't really suitable for the movie, but that's just my opinion... I would have preferred to see more of Jack and Ennis rather than seeing Alma and Loreen.

[BlueMountain]

I could not agree with you more! I've seen Anne's previous roles and that was absolutely shocking to me to see that. Plus I think it wasn't really suitable for the movie, but that's just my opinion... I would have preferred to see more of Jack and Ennis rather than seeing Alma and Loreen.

  Exactly! I would have loved to see more of Jack like that!

[manhattangirl]

Lureen and Jack on their first "date" and the FNIT,   Lureen was Jack,  Jack was Ennis,  but fast or slow he liked the direction she was going.  He found acceptance.  He married her.   Poor Jack.   JMO

[vedrana]

I could not agree with you more! I've seen Anne's previous roles and that was absolutely shocking to me to see that. Plus I think it wasn't really suitable for the movie, but that's just my opinion... I would have preferred to see more of Jack and Ennis rather than seeing Alma and Loreen.

I think that scenes with their wives/girlfriends were more than necessary. Those scenes have the message, and show us how they were doing with the women. Alma and Ennis were engaged to marry before, until Lureen just jump on Jack and made him marry her in a short term. But both man had very important part of their lives with their wives and even I love the scenes between E&J much much more, I would never take out the scenes with Alma and Lureen. Otherwise it would look like E&J had no sexual relationships with their wives at all, and that's not true.

Scene in the back of the car with Lureen for me is even funny in a way. Always brave Jack needed some time to adjust to the situation with some new parts of the body... But as always he did just fine! 

[vedrana]

Lureen and Jack on their first "date" and the FNIT,   Lureen was Jack,  Jack was Ennis,  but fast or slow he liked the direction she was going.  He found acceptance.  He married her.   Poor Jack.   JMO

This is a very good parallel.

I believe that Lureen was the best thing that could happen to Jack at the time. He was broke, alone, not very successful in rodeo, "busted up".... and there she was - young, beautiful, loaded, and-she liked him a lot at the beginning. I can't imagine what would Jack do and how would he manage to do anything in a such a desperate situation he was then. Ennis was already married, and not marring Lureen would mean nothing in that matter. So, IMO Lureen was the good choice at the time.

During next 17 years .... there were some chances with Ennis which Jack lost. Unfortunately.

[myprivatejack]

I think that scenes with their wives/girlfriends were more than necessary. Those scenes have the message, and show us how they were doing with the women. Alma and Ennis were engaged to marry before, until Lureen just jump on Jack and made him marry her in a short term. But both man had very important part of their lives with their wives and even I love the scenes between E&J much much more, I would never take out the scenes with Alma and Lureen. Otherwise it would look like E&J had no sexual relationships with their wives at all, and that's not true.

Scene in the back of the car with Lureen for me is even funny in a way. Always brave Jack needed some time to adjust to the situation with some new parts of the body... But as always he did just fine! 

I also think that love-sex scenes with their wives were necessary to see the difference that,somehow,there was between their own relationship and the one they have with women;what they wished to do and how to live and what they must do and to live.Also to see how influenced both of them were in their relationship with women for the bonds both of them had created up on the  mountain-remember the first sex scene with Alma in their first home,f.e...-.Sometimes we seem to "hate" Alma and Lureen,but we mustn't forget that both of them-specially Alma,a much more typical housewife depending on man-were a victims too of a situation they hadn't looked for and less still,wished...

[BlueMountain]

I think that scenes with their wives/girlfriends were more than necessary. Those scenes have the message, and show us how they were doing with the women. Alma and Ennis were engaged to marry before, until Lureen just jump on Jack and made him marry her in a short term. But both man had very important part of their lives with their wives and even I love the scenes between E&J much much more, I would never take out the scenes with Alma and Lureen. Otherwise it would look like E&J had no sexual relationships with their wives at all, and that's not true.

Scene in the back of the car with Lureen for me is even funny in a way. Always brave Jack needed some time to adjust to the situation with some new parts of the body... But as always he did just fine! 

  True! But remember when Ennis mentioned "You might be a sinner, but I myself havent had the opportunity" but do you thing that Jack actually had "sinned" before?

[vedrana]

True! But remember when Ennis mentioned "You might be a sinner, but I myself havent had the opportunity" but do you thing that Jack actually had "sinned" before?

Hm.. there's being a whole thread I think, or a discussion in a thread (not sure) about this.

I personally don't know! Considering the fact how bad he was doing in Texas (clown and all) maybe even not! Not sure anyway!

[Lobsel-Vith]

I think that scenes with their wives/girlfriends were more than necessary. Those scenes have the message, and show us how they were doing with the women. Alma and Ennis were engaged to marry before, until Lureen just jump on Jack and made him marry her in a short term. But both man had very important part of their lives with their wives and even I love the scenes between E&J much much more, I would never take out the scenes with Alma and Lureen. Otherwise it would look like E&J had no sexual relationships with their wives at all, and that's not true.

Scene in the back of the car with Lureen for me is even funny in a way. Always brave Jack needed some time to adjust to the situation with some new parts of the body... But as always he did just fine! 

Touché. I find that it did reinforce that they were trying to abide by society's standards and going and being with women. Haha, brave Jack. I don't remember, did he look surprised when she just tore her shirt off? Could that be why she said "Do you think I'm to fast?"

[vedrana]

Touché. I find that it did reinforce that they were trying to abide by society's standards and going and being with women. Haha, brave Jack. I don't remember, did he look surprised when she just tore her shirt off? Could that be why she said "Do you think I'm to fast?"

First she jumped on him, remove his hat and went for it. Suddenly she stopped and got up: Do you think I'm too fast? And then he said so funny sentence: Fast or slow, I just love the way you're going! After a few second of making out, she again got up and unbutton the shirt. And he was stunned: Oh, you are in a hurry!? ....    

[tpe]

I always thought that all the sex (and in any kind intimate) scenes were not enough and in a way brutally cut of. But also, there are more average moviegoer who believe that these scenes were more than enough. They were the pointer for Ang Lee.

Maybe they should have made 2 versions -one for the majority, and the other for Brokies. Our would be 3-4 hours long.... 

It is interesting how the sex scene(s) in BBM contrast sharply with the explicitness in Ang Lee's "Lust, Caution".  I think that understatement was the byword here, and perhaps it worked best for a general audience watching an intimate relationship between 2 men...

[tpe]

I would of taken out Loreen's "explicent" scene I was so surprized by that. Very unexpected for Anne Hathaway!

Oh God.  I apologize!  When I was talking about sex scenes here, I was excluding the heterosexual ones!     I stand corrected. 

[tpe]

I could not agree with you more! I've seen Anne's previous roles and that was absolutely shocking to me to see that. Plus I think it wasn't really suitable for the movie, but that's just my opinion... I would have preferred to see more of Jack and Ennis rather than seeing Alma and Loreen.

She said in interviews that it was very tough for her, since she was not this aggressive in real life, and she had to play a character who was not exactly who she was...

[tpe]

Lureen and Jack on their first "date" and the FNIT,   Lureen was Jack,  Jack was Ennis,  but fast or slow he liked the direction she was going.  He found acceptance.  He married her.   Poor Jack.   JMO

This is a very good parallel.

I believe that Lureen was the best thing that could happen to Jack at the time. He was broke, alone, not very successful in rodeo, "busted up".... and there she was - young, beautiful, loaded, and-she liked him a lot at the beginning. I can't imagine what would Jack do and how would he manage to do anything in a such a desperate situation he was then. Ennis was already married, and not marring Lureen would mean nothing in that matter. So, IMO Lureen was the good choice at the time.

During next 17 years .... there were some chances with Ennis which Jack lost. Unfortunately.

The comparison is indeed quite apt, IMO.  It is interesting to note that with Loreen, Jack was a bit more passive and allowed Loreen to do as she wished...

[tpe]

I also think that love-sex scenes with their wives were necessary to see the difference that,somehow,there was between their own relationship and the one they have with women;what they wished to do and how to live and what they must do and to live.Also to see how influenced both of them were in their relationship with women for the bonds both of them had created up on the  mountain-remember the first sex scene with Alma in their first home,f.e...-.Sometimes we seem to "hate" Alma and Lureen,but we mustn't forget that both of them-specially Alma,a much more typical housewife depending on man-were a victims too of a situation they hadn't looked for and less still,wished...

Again, I really must apologize for forgetting the heterosexual scenes...  But I agree that the scenes were necessary, if only to serve as a foil to the relationship between Ennis and Jack.  It was the aspect of their "public" lives that compared and contrasted sharply with their "private" one together.

[vedrana]

The comparison is indeed quite apt, IMO.  It is interesting to note that with Loreen, Jack was a bit more passive and allowed Loreen to do as she wished...

Hm... active enough I'd say! Even not on the top again! 

 

[vedrana]

It is interesting how the sex scene(s) in BBM contrast sharply with the explicitness in Ang Lee's "Lust, Caution".  I think that understatement was the byword here, and perhaps it worked best for a general audience watching an intimate relationship between 2 men...

A lots of average moviegoer have problem even with these few scenes. To be honest I was under average moviegoer when I had watched the movie for the first time. But it so was easy to adjust! 

[FlwrChild]

What wonderful posts! It's nice to catch up here. 

Just a quick response to the idea of having that heartwarming "Little Darlin'" from the reunion scene uttered in the movie. I don't think that it would have worked the same way on film. In the written story, we recognize the significance of such a statement:

"…….Late in the afternoon, thunder growling, that same old green pickup rolled in and he saw Jack get out of the truck, beat-up Resistol tilted back. A hot jolt scalded Ennis and he was out on the landing pulling the door closed behind him. Jack took the stairs two and two. They seized each other by the shoulders, hugged mightily, squeezing the breath out of each other, saying, son of a bitch, son of a bitch, then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack’s big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet saliva welling, and the door opening and Alma looking out for a few seconds at Ennis’s straining shoulders and shutting the door again and still they clinched, pressing chest and groin and thigh and leg together, treading on each other’s toes until they pulled apart to breathe and Ennis, not big on endearments, said what he said to his horses and daughters, little darlin."

 


Without that context, and having no previous endearments exchanged between them, it might have fallen flat in that moment and seemed too contrived. I must admit though, that in my head when I see this scene, I can hear Ennis of the SS whispering those words to Jack. 


For my feeling about the sex scenes in general and how we inevitably wish there had been more (whether scenes like FNIT/SNIT or just a sweet kiss or hug), I can't help thinking that this was partly done to bring to us that feeling they had of never enough time, never enough...

They had to get by on snippets of togetherness and fulfillment for the better part of 20 years. We can feel a little of what they felt because we feel the same way about the time we got to spend with them.

[manhattangirl]

What wonderful posts! It's nice to catch up here. 

Just a quick response to the idea of having that heartwarming "Little Darlin'" from the reunion scene uttered in the movie. I don't think that it would have worked the same way on film. In the written story, we recognize the significance of such a statement:

"…….Late in the afternoon, thunder growling, that same old green pickup rolled in and he saw Jack get out of the truck, beat-up Resistol tilted back. A hot jolt scalded Ennis and he was out on the landing pulling the door closed behind him. Jack took the stairs two and two. They seized each other by the shoulders, hugged mightily, squeezing the breath out of each other, saying, son of a bitch, son of a bitch, then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack’s big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet saliva welling, and the door opening and Alma looking out for a few seconds at Ennis’s straining shoulders and shutting the door again and still they clinched, pressing chest and groin and thigh and leg together, treading on each other’s toes until they pulled apart to breathe and Ennis, not big on endearments, said what he said to his horses and daughters, little darlin."

 


Without that context, and having no previous endearments exchanged between them, it might have fallen flat in that moment and seemed too contrived. I must admit though, that in my head when I see this scene, I can hear Ennis of the SS whispering those words to Jack. 


For my feeling about the sex scenes in general and how we inevitably wish there had been more (whether scenes like FNIT/SNIT or just a sweet kiss or hug), I can't help thinking that this was partly done to bring to us that feeling they had of never enough time, never enough...

They had to get by on snippets of togetherness and fulfillment for the better part of 20 years. We can feel a little of what they felt because we feel the same way about the time we got to spend with them.

Its just this kind of moment,  that would propel the movie to a totally different direction.   If he said those words in the film,  then what woud we talking about?   How would it change for us?  The ss in its simple way,  was so much  more explict than the movie.   

[tpe]

A lots of average moviegoer have problem even with these few scenes. To be honest I was under average moviegoer when I had watched the movie for the first time. But it so was easy to adjust! 

Yes, homosexual love scenes are "different" to the public at large, but that is to say that it should be any different, correct?  I don't want to say that it is a matter of "conditioning".  It's more a question of good taste and subtlety -- certainly, these must have been important in Ang Lee's vision of the scenes.

[tpe]

What wonderful posts! It's nice to catch up here. 

Just a quick response to the idea of having that heartwarming "Little Darlin'" from the reunion scene uttered in the movie. I don't think that it would have worked the same way on film. In the written story, we recognize the significance of such a statement:

"…….Late in the afternoon, thunder growling, that same old green pickup rolled in and he saw Jack get out of the truck, beat-up Resistol tilted back. A hot jolt scalded Ennis and he was out on the landing pulling the door closed behind him. Jack took the stairs two and two. They seized each other by the shoulders, hugged mightily, squeezing the breath out of each other, saying, son of a bitch, son of a bitch, then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack’s big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet saliva welling, and the door opening and Alma looking out for a few seconds at Ennis’s straining shoulders and shutting the door again and still they clinched, pressing chest and groin and thigh and leg together, treading on each other’s toes until they pulled apart to breathe and Ennis, not big on endearments, said what he said to his horses and daughters, little darlin."

 


Without that context, and having no previous endearments exchanged between them, it might have fallen flat in that moment and seemed too contrived. I must admit though, that in my head when I see this scene, I can hear Ennis of the SS whispering those words to Jack. 


For my feeling about the sex scenes in general and how we inevitably wish there had been more (whether scenes like FNIT/SNIT or just a sweet kiss or hug), I can't help thinking that this was partly done to bring to us that feeling they had of never enough time, never enough...

They had to get by on snippets of togetherness and fulfillment for the better part of 20 years. We can feel a little of what they felt because we feel the same way about the time we got to spend with them.

Yes, I think you are right here.  And also true is the sense of urgency imparted by not having more.  It makes us feel what they mjust have been going through...

[vedrana]

What wonderful posts! It's nice to catch up here. 

Just a quick response to the idea of having that heartwarming "Little Darlin'" from the reunion scene uttered in the movie. I don't think that it would have worked the same way on film. In the written story, we recognize the significance of such a statement:

"…….Late in the afternoon, thunder growling, that same old green pickup rolled in and he saw Jack get out of the truck, beat-up Resistol tilted back. A hot jolt scalded Ennis and he was out on the landing pulling the door closed behind him. Jack took the stairs two and two. They seized each other by the shoulders, hugged mightily, squeezing the breath out of each other, saying, son of a bitch, son of a bitch, then, and easily as the right key turns the lock tumblers, their mouths came together, and hard, Jack’s big teeth bringing blood, his hat falling to the floor, stubble rasping, wet saliva welling, and the door opening and Alma looking out for a few seconds at Ennis’s straining shoulders and shutting the door again and still they clinched, pressing chest and groin and thigh and leg together, treading on each other’s toes until they pulled apart to breathe and Ennis, not big on endearments, said what he said to his horses and daughters, little darlin."

 


Without that context, and having no previous endearments exchanged between them, it might have fallen flat in that moment and seemed too contrived. I must admit though, that in my head when I see this scene, I can hear Ennis of the SS whispering those words to Jack. 


For my feeling about the sex scenes in general and how we inevitably wish there had been more (whether scenes like FNIT/SNIT or just a sweet kiss or hug), I can't help thinking that this was partly done to bring to us that feeling they had of never enough time, never enough...

They had to get by on snippets of togetherness and fulfillment for the better part of 20 years. We can feel a little of what they felt because we feel the same way about the time we got to spend with them.

I don't see that "little darling" would in any way harm the reunion scene. On the contrary - I always wanted to hear it, and when Ennis is about to separate from Jack after the reunion kiss and in that moments he really whispered something, I just need it to be those lovely "little darling"!! Those words IMO shows how Ennis thought of Jack past 4 years -like his little darling, someone precious, someone he loved dearly and to whom he wanted to give all his tenderness. I really melt each time I think of those words and IMO it was not a good decision to cut them out. But then, I am so madly in love with BBM, that I am not competent to represent the majority of viewers and in my great passion for the movie, maybe I'd just spoil everything.... Luckily, wasn't me who decided....  

As for the last part, i believe that you're right here -never enough time, never enough... :\'( I remember right after I got my PBS; I always calculated how long time, how many days they had spent together...  And I always added some more to comfort myself... stupid, ha?

[tpe]

Its just this kind of moment,  that would propel the movie to a totally different direction.   If he said those words in the film,  then what woud we talking about?   How would it change for us?  The ss in its simple way,  was so much  more explict than the movie.   

This is a good point, MG.

[vedrana]

Yes, homosexual love scenes are "different" to the public at large, but that is to say that it should be any different, correct?  I don't want to say that it is a matter of "conditioning".  It's more a question of good taste and subtlety -- certainly, these must have been important in Ang Lee's vision of the scenes.

In fact, maybe it is even not a good taste, because wee saw (almost  ) everything they did - sex act, kisses, hugs, tenderness, feelings between them....so maybe the reason why we didn't see more of it, is just what FlwrChild said - never enough time for their love, never enough...  :\'(

Just to explain - when I said tenderness and feelings, I know that it has nothing to do with physical love, but for some viewers is also hard to accept it between two man. Anyway not less that a real physical contact. I know that it sounds strange, but it is that way.

[tpe]

In fact, maybe it is even not a good taste, because wee saw (almost  ) everything they did - sex act, kisses, hugs, tenderness, feelings between them....so maybe the reason why we didn't see more of it, is just what FlwrChild said - never enough time for their love, never enough...  :\'(

Just to explain - when I said tenderness and feelings, I know that it has nothing to do with physical love, but for some viewers is also hard to accept it between two man. Anyway not less that a real physical contact. I know that it sounds strange, but it is that way.

Well, I think it was good tatse.  The sex scenes were even more subtle than the standard heterosexual sex scenes that we see.  You can tell that for Ang Lee, "less is more" was a guiding principle in BBM.  Even FNIT -- it could have been more explicit.  But he simply stayed quite close to the description in the ss.  Had the spittle part been absent from the ss, I sense that Ang Lee would not have even "shown" it.

[manhattangirl]

I've always wondered if the love scenes were filmed more for the general (heterosexual) population.   What I mean,  I can't help but think of the book "Men are from mars, Woman are from Venus".  We are talking about two men.   no matter straight or gay, their men.   Do we tend to look at this from that point of view of a hereto relationship?     Will two men communicate verbally, or non verbally as a man and a woman.  I think of the covers of romance novels, the woman laid out in the arms of  a strong man looking down at her, rescuing her from some unknown danger.   Remember movie picture of  "Gone with the Wind", and then "Brokeback Mountain".     

I don't know if I'm making sense, but how would the FNIT and the SNIT played if were a man and a woman, how would you interpert it.   I was just wonering are we looking at it from our personal veiw point, or can we think out of the box,  and really look at it from their point of veiw and what do you think it is.