Topic: Would you change the sex scenes and, if so, how...?

[tpe]

But isn't it truth that just at the end he was fully aware of everything? I believe that had he known that it was love, deep, strong, everlasting... he would've take his chances no matter "whut"!!! I believe that in his mind things have never got clear until the end.  :\'(

I don't think he became fully aware of everything until he saw the shirts inside Jack's closet many years after. 

[atalley]

I don't think that BBM would have the same effect on everyone if the scenes had been more explicit (especially SNIT).  It's the gentleness of this particular scene that moves us.  I love to hear the kisses & see Ennis surrender underneath Jack. 

[Lobsel-Vith]

I don't think that BBM would have the same effect on everyone if the scenes had been more explicit (especially SNIT).  It's the gentleness of this particular scene that moves us.  I love to hear the kisses & see Ennis surrender underneath Jack. 

I do too. When I saw Ennis just lay on Jack I was like "Awww", it was so romantic and I love it. I also agree that if they were more explicit we wouldn't have had the same effect. I like them how they are, although a little extra wouldn't have been bad in FNIT. SNIT though was perfect just how it was, lovely, romantic, and absolutely perfect. 

[vedrana]

I don't think he became fully aware of everything until he saw the shirts inside Jack's closet many years after. 

Well, that's what I said - Ennis had some strange picture and explanation for "this thing" in his head and the process of revealing the truth to himself started during FC and finished with the shirts. Before that, Ennis let it stay blur, maybe coz it was easier for him that way. Only when faced to the ugly things - Jack's infidelity and his death, he opened his eyes and recognized the truth - the Love they had! :\'(

[vedrana]

I don't think that BBM would have the same effect on everyone if the scenes had been more explicit (especially SNIT).  It's the gentleness of this particular scene that moves us.  I love to hear the kisses & see Ennis surrender underneath Jack. 

I don't think that I will ever be able to understand what in SNIT makes me crazy, but there's something about that scene, that is beyond magical. The awkwardness, shy Ennis, Jack's eyes and lust in him, development of Ennis's surrendering, tender kisses, yearning for love of both of them.... I really don't know. But it is very very special!

I'd like to see a bit more though...

I also think that no other love scene would ever come even close to this one regarding the effect that it had on me!  ... and the surprisingly long time that the effect lasts...

[tpe]

I don't think that BBM would have the same effect on everyone if the scenes had been more explicit (especially SNIT).  It's the gentleness of this particular scene that moves us.  I love to hear the kisses & see Ennis surrender underneath Jack. 

I do too. When I saw Ennis just lay on Jack I was like "Awww", it was so romantic and I love it. I also agree that if they were more explicit we wouldn't have had the same effect. I like them how they are, although a little extra wouldn't have been bad in FNIT. SNIT though was perfect just how it was, lovely, romantic, and absolutely perfect. 

I don't think that I will ever be able to understand what in SNIT makes me crazy, but there's something about that scene, that is beyond magical. The awkwardness, shy Ennis, Jack's eyes and lust in him, development of Ennis's surrendering, tender kisses, yearning for love of both of them.... I really don't know. But it is very very special!

I'd like to see a bit more though...

I also think that no other love scene would ever come even close to this one regarding the effect that it had on me!  ... and the surprisingly long time that the effect lasts...

I agree.

Some people may in fact be turned off by explicitness.  The beauty of the scene is that they found (IMO) the right balance between lyricism and passion.  It is tantalizing to both the senses and to the heart.

And yes.  It is magical.

[vedrana]

I agree.

Some people may in fact be turned off by explicitness.  The beauty of the scene is that they found (IMO) the right balance between lyricism and passion.  It is tantalizing to both the senses and to the heart.

And yes.  It is magical.

I am sure that an empty explicitness would have a negative impact on me, and I know that cutting of the love scenes was meant to show how they never had enough time for sharing the love for each other. Even so, I'd prefer more of them, sharing tenderness or (as Rose said) dancing, or any moment they were truly close...

After BBM we remain hungry of Ennis and Jack together. That is surely a good effect for the director, but it is not easy for us/me.

[myprivatejack]

I agree.

Some people may in fact be turned off by explicitness.  The beauty of the scene is that they found (IMO) the right balance between lyricism and passion.  It is tantalizing to both the senses and to the heart.And yes.  It is magical.

I am sure that an empty explicitness would have a negative impact on me, and I know that cutting of the love scenes was meant to show how they never had enough time for sharing the love for each other. Even so, I'd prefer more of them, sharing tenderness or (as Rose said) dancing, or any moment they were truly close...

After BBM we remain hungry of Ennis and Jack together. That is surely a good effect for the director, but it is not easy for us/me.

Yes,I agree in that what makes BBM so compelling is this delicate balance between passion and tenderness;it's not,it mustn't be a simply effectiveness object to look for a completely different reactions and sensations in viewers.It must be,above all,a way to make us feel closer to their tragic and endless love,and a greater explicitness wouldn't get this exactly-or at least,with the same strength...-.
And I agree also with Loreen in that the way their love scenes are cut,almost always suddenly,must be a way to show that first,even in their happiest moments in the mountain,society rules and misunderstanding was always there,threatening their happiness-it's the case of Aguirre's spying them-,and second,that they had never had enough time to share good moments,because these rules and misunderstanding didn't allow them to,and all what they had-apart of BBM-was little pieces of happiness,as a humble and poor gift in their unlucky lives...

[vedrana]

Yes,I agree in that what makes BBM so compelling is this delicate balance between passion and tenderness;it's not,it mustn't be a simply effectiveness object to look for a completely different reactions and sensations in viewers.It must be,above all,a way to make us feel closer to their tragic and endless love,and a greater explicitness wouldn't get this exactly-or at least,with the same strength...-.
And I agree also with Loreen in that the way their love scenes are cut,almost always suddenly,must be a way to show that first,even in their happiest moments in the mountain,society rules and misunderstanding was always there,threatening their happiness-it's the case of Aguirre's spying them-,and second,that they had never had enough time to share good moments,because these rules and misunderstanding didn't allow them to,and all what they had-apart of BBM-was little pieces of happiness,as a humble and poor gift in their unlucky lives...

Yup! And you said it so  :\'( :\'( :\'(

When will these stupid tears stop??

[tpe]

I am sure that an empty explicitness would have a negative impact on me, and I know that cutting of the love scenes was meant to show how they never had enough time for sharing the love for each other. Even so, I'd prefer more of them, sharing tenderness or (as Rose said) dancing, or any moment they were truly close...

After BBM we remain hungry of Ennis and Jack together. That is surely a good effect for the director, but it is not easy for us/me.

Yes, as we had discussed before the big loss of data, I think this was deliberate on the part of Ang Lee.  He certainly was capabale of being more explicit -- as in the sex scenes in "Lust, Caution".  But he held back for BBM, and I think that what you say here is an important element in this choice.  I also think that more restraint with respect to the sex scenes would have been more accessible to a wider audience...

[babytammy7]

I just want to repost something I wrote for Loreen and got deleted when the forum had that big problem last week. 

I really think that there were not more sex scenes filmed. Ang said in a very known interview that he knew that people probably would want more sex scenes but that he filmed only what we can see in the movie because he thought that filming more loving scenes would be abusing of his young actors: Heath and Jake.
As you know, Ang filmed SNIT only with his camera man, Heath and Jake there, because he knew that his actors had some issues with the intimate scenes; so he really thought that wanting his actors to film more sex was truly an abuse.

Also he wanted to show with the few sparse sex scenes that there was never enough time for our boys, and that with time they really became more buddies than lovers, what made Jack really frustrated with that couple of f*cks a year…Oh well, we had a long talk about this while back in this thread, about how at the end they looked like they really were fishing buddies….**sigh**

Also it’s true that Ang filmed lots of takes of all the loving scenes. But they were not different from each other. I mean, Heath and Jake didn’t have to do different things in every take, like kiss more in a take or touch more in another. They just filmed again and again the same scene doing the same things till Ang thought that he had enough material to choose the right take, the one he thought was the best and showed what he really wanted to convey.

[atalley]

Wonder if any scenes were "ad libbed"?  The reason I ask...a long time ago either here or IHJ, someone said that Heath might have been telling Jake (basically in the reunion scene)-"okay, that's enough".

[tpe]

I just want to repost something I wrote for Loreen and got deleted when the forum had that big problem last week. 

I really think that there were not more sex scenes filmed. Ang said in a very known interview that he knew that people probably would want more sex scenes but that he filmed only what we can see in the movie because he thought that filming more loving scenes would be abusing of his young actors: Heath and Jake.
As you know, Ang filmed SNIT only with his camera man, Heath and Jake there, because he knew that his actors had some issues with the intimate scenes; so he really thought that wanting his actors to film more sex was truly an abuse.

Also he wanted to show with the few sparse sex scenes that there was never enough time for our boys, and that with time they really became more buddies than lovers, what made Jack really frustrated with that couple of f*cks a year…Oh well, we had a long talk about this while back in this thread, about how at the end they looked like they really were fishing buddies….**sigh**

Also it’s true that Ang filmed lots of takes of all the loving scenes. But they were not different from each other. I mean, Heath and Jake didn’t have to do different things in every take, like kiss more in a take or touch more in another. They just filmed again and again the same scene doing the same things till Ang thought that he had enough material to choose the right take, the one he thought was the best and showed what he really wanted to convey.

I agree with this. 

Certainly, part of the reason may lie on not wanting to make the actors a bit too uncomfortable.  And this inluded the heterosexual scenes as well, I think.  Anne had mentioned a number of times that she felt uncomfortable portraying Lureen, because the character's sexual aggressiveness  was so different from her own. 

But there are certainly multiple reasons to account for the restraint and sparseness of the sex scenes, as you mention here.

[tpe]

Wonder if any scenes were "ad libbed"?  The reason I ask...a long time ago either here or IHJ, someone said that Heath might have been telling Jake (basically in the reunion scene)-"okay, that's enough".

I should think so.    But I wonder hjow much ad libbing went on in the man-to-man sex scenes -- given how uncomfortable the actors may have been, they probably tried to keep things under control and well-scripted. 

It reminds me of the recent news in Prince of Persia, where Jake's co-star could,'t help tonguing Jake during one of the kiss scenes -- she just got carried away! 

[vedrana]

What I said previously is that the way Ang Lee filmed the sex scenes and all the scenes between them (cut and unfinished) left us all in hunger of Ennis and Jack! We were/ are and will always be hungry of them.

BT, if we believe everything that Ang Lee says, than I can completely agree with you. 

[tpe]

We also shouldn't forget other points brought up -- that it may have been easier on the actors not to dwell on the details of the sex, and it would be easier for a general audience to accept such restraint.   And as I had also said, even the heterosexual sex scene between Jack and Lureen cused uneasiness on Anne's part, because in real life, she claimed to be not that sexually aggressive, and the character's behavior went against the grain of who she really was...

[vedrana]

We also shouldn't forget other points brought up -- that it may have been easier on the actors not to dwell on the details of the sex, and it would be easier for a general audience to accept such restraint.   And as I had also said, even the heterosexual sex scene between Jack and Lureen cused uneasiness on Anne's part, because in real life, she claimed to be not that sexually aggressive, and the character's behavior went against the grain of who she really was...

Heterosexual scenes anyway were a bit more explicit and longer... at least I think so... Ann knew what to expect in the back seat of the car, when she accepted the role, so she had to be prepared for that joy.

Finally, I would definitely love to see more of E&J together, but Lee absolutely accomplished the effect of  depicting their relationship in the terms of time lacking.

Never enough time, never enough....

[tpe]

Heterosexual scenes anyway were a bit more explicit and longer... at least I think so... Ann knew what to expect in the back seat of the car, when she accepted the role, so she had to be prepared for that joy.

Finally, I would definitely love to see more of E&J together, but Lee absolutely accomplished the effect of  depicting their relationship in the terms of time lacking.

Never enough time, never enough....

Yes, the hetero scenes were more explicit, but still not as explicit as in Lee's "Lust, Caution"  I would have traded any of them for more E&J scenes -- but I am biased, of course! 

[vedrana]

Yes, the hetero scenes were more explicit, but still not as explicit as in Lee's "Lust, Caution"  I would have traded any of them for more E&J scenes -- but I am biased, of course! 

In this case, we all are!

I think women here on the forum maybe even more than man... 

[tpe]

In this case, we all are!

I think women here on the forum maybe even more than man... 

Don'r be so sure about it among the gay men. 

[vedrana]

Don'r be so sure about it among the gay men. 

Well, I am not sure, but I know how we/I think, and it would be difficult to surpass that! 

[tpe]

Well, I am not sure, but I know how we/I think, and it would be difficult to surpass that! 

You would be very surprised.     That's the most I can say here...

[vedrana]

You would be very surprised.     That's the most I can say here...

  Can you say a little more, pleaseeeee!  ( ( ( 

Hm... to be persistent - you know that for ladies the pleasure of watching 2 men is double! 

But, if you're talking strictly about explicitness, than... well, I give up! 

I almost forgot , I am a  !

[tpe]

Can you say a little more, pleaseeeee!  ( ( ( 

Hm... to be persistent - you know that for ladies the pleasure of watching 2 men is double! 

But, if you're talking strictly about explicitness, than... well, I give up! 

I almost forgot , I am a  !

Yes, I better not go there.     Perhaps when we meet one of these days, we can talk about it.   

[vedrana]

Yes, I better not go there.     Perhaps when we meet one of these days, we can talk about it.   

If so, I am making reservations for Vienna, right now!

 

[athena0204]

I always felt that SNIT is too short. I really wish it was just a little longer, just 30 seconds to a minute longer. Just a tad bit more explicitness would be okay, as long as it showed it in a tender and romantic way. I love that scene, it is one of the most beautiful in the entire film, and it really shows that their intimacy with each other is making love, the sex is an expression of their true love and that passion and romance lasted all those years. So yeah, just make SNIT a bit longer, and maybe add a short, tender scene from one of their meetings in the subsequent years after their reunion, like the one where they were at Don Wroe's cabin would be nice. Other than that, there's not much else to add. And yes the passage of time showed how little time they had spent together over twenty years, but it definitely did not detract from their love or indicate that it had diminished into just a friendship. There was the couple of months on Brokeback Mountain the first summer, then two or three times a year they would meet for several days to a week for about 15-16 years. When you add it all up, the total time they must have spent together during all those years would be a few months shy of a year. That's why it's so heartbreaking at the end, in the last scene, when the passage of all that time really catches up to them, and they realize how much time they've lost in this life, time when they could have just been together from the first summer on, or at least from the reunion on. And they could have spent that time just being themselves, being who they are and living a life that suits them, a life of happiness and freedom that they deserve, instead of being in chains, feeling trapped and miserable as they pretended to be something they weren't, living the wrong life, only being alive for the few times a year they could be together. It's just too sad thinking about it. But over all that time, it's beautiful to see how their love remained so strong, and during their last trip, at the scene where Ennis has his arms around Jack while they are sleeping gives a glimpse of what their life would be like as they aged together. It always remained a deep, true, and powerful romantic love, just like any soulmates who go through the years together.

[orangetruck]

I always felt that SNIT is too short. I really wish it was just a little longer, just 30 seconds to a minute longer. Just a tad bit more explicitness would be okay, as long as it showed it in a tender and romantic way. I love that scene, it is one of the most beautiful in the entire film, and it really shows that their intimacy with each other is making love, the sex is an expression of their true love and that passion and romance lasted all those years. So yeah, just make SNIT a bit longer, and maybe add a short, tender scene from one of their meetings in the subsequent years after their reunion, like the one where they were at Don Wroe's cabin would be nice. Other than that, there's not much else to add. And yes the passage of time showed how little time they had spent together over twenty years, but it definitely did not detract from their love or indicate that it had diminished into just a friendship. There was the couple of months on Brokeback Mountain the first summer, then two or three times a year they would meet for several days to a week for about 15-16 years. When you add it all up, the total time they must have spent together during all those years would be a few months shy of a year. That's why it's so heartbreaking at the end, in the last scene, when the passage of all that time really catches up to them, and they realize how much time they've lost in this life, time when they could have just been together from the first summer on, or at least from the reunion on. And they could have spent that time just being themselves, being who they are and living a life that suits them, a life of happiness and freedom that they deserve, instead of being in chains, feeling trapped and miserable as they pretended to be something they weren't, living the wrong life, only being alive for the few times a year they could be together. It's just too sad thinking about it. But over all that time, it's beautiful to see how their love remained so strong, and during their last trip, at the scene where Ennis has his arms around Jack while they are sleeping gives a glimpse of what their life would be like as they aged together. It always remained a deep, true, and powerful romantic love, just like any soulmates who go through the years together.

It's taking all I got at the moment to not just send a couple streams down my cheeks. Wow, you hit it with this one.   

[athena0204]

It's taking all I got at the moment to not just send a couple streams down my cheeks. Wow, you hit it with this one.   

Aww, thank you. 

[tpe]

Although scenes like the SNIT, the Reunion Kiss, and the (sexless) Dozy Embrace feel way too short, there is a timeless quality to them -- something that touches us and brands/imprints itself deeply into our psyche.  That is the mark of great Art, IMO.

[myprivatejack]

Although scenes like the SNIT, the Reunion Kiss, and the (sexless) Dozy Embrace feel way too short, there is a timeless quality to them -- something that touches us and brands/imprints itself deeply into our psyche.  That is the mark of great Art, IMO.

Yes,I think that Art with capital letters,the great Art you mention,is this one that makes us feel a great deal of sensations in few time,among other things...That one that gets to become one of our best memories in spite of its short lenght.And doubtless,these BBM scenes join these two conditions.However,I think that they're short on purpose,to remark how short is happinness time,how fast their time of freedom and love in BBM passed.