Author Topic: scenes of observation  (Read 141544 times)

Offline tpe

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #90 on: Oct 19, 2007, 09:55 AM »
   

   I should imagine another reason ennis could,nt just quit the jobs was because 

   he had child support to pay each month.
   

Yes, he was certainly more constrained, although I sometimes felt that he used his family obligations as an excuse.  I have in mind here the post-divorce meeting when he sent Jack away.

Offline tpe

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #91 on: Oct 19, 2007, 10:06 AM »
Things are seen in a rather different way when one is young and nobody depends on your economic support than when you´re older,with problems for this age and lack of job skills and with children to maintain,you right  O0.But I think it´s in this scene where we can see better not only this lack of a real communication we´ve spoken about sometimes,but also a kind of shellfishness on the part of both of them.Ennis doesn´t understand that Jack is arriving at a point of his life in which he wants ANSWERS,doesn´t want to wait more for a dream´s doing he´s seeing more and more far,as you tpe say.And this doesn´t understand that Ennis is arriving,on his side,at another point of his life in which all the economical and working questions I´ve indicated before are more dramatically outstanding,because Jack´s better social level avoid him to worry about them... %(
But there´s something that intrigues me in your post,tpe,and it´s what I´ve put in bold;can you explain,please,why do you think Ennis´s phrase is also a way of distancing himself?Do you really think he wanted to get away from his lover?For tiredness,for fear,for not liking so much how Jack has changed in last times?Jack is at the point of giving up really-IMO since the scene near the river in which Ennis answer was quite cinic even...-,but what about Ennis?Does he want to leave their relationship at that point,although later he realises he wants to see Jack again by sending him the last card?.I wonder.Can you explain the reasons?. :t)

Hello MPJ!

I do have this feeling that there was a part of Ennis -- voluntary or involuntary -- that tried to pull away.  When we say that Ennis is conflicted, we assume that there are forces pulling him apart -- in both ways. 

My feeling is that as Ennis got older, perhaps his fears and isolation were getting the better of him.  As you said, he was not as care-free and as confident as he was back in 63.  And perhaps there was the involuntary (?) pull to create some distance between himself and the love that had, afterall, caused him so much internal agony as much as it gave him joy.

It's not that he wanted Jack to go away.  It's just that there was a part of him that yearned for the burden inside him to be lifted, as a person trapped in a cave years for the storm to end.

Most of us can understand this, I think.  Sometimes, we do things in spite of ourselves.  We recognize the pull of certain things, even as we recognize that we sometimes years for what opposes it.

Let me start this way.  Does this make sense to you?


Offline lightnin flat

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #92 on: Oct 19, 2007, 10:24 AM »
Yes, he was certainly more constrained, although I sometimes felt that he used his family obligations as an excuse.  I have in mind here the post-divorce meeting when he sent Jack away.

   
          Yes i am almost sure if ennis wanted to sort something out when jack turned up to see him after the divorce he could of done even if he asked jack to stay in a motel till after the weekend when his girls would of gone home .They could of got together then but he didnt and taking in to account how far jack had driven.   
 But ennis could of just been caught of guard and not had time to think he was put on the spot you could say.   
 
Ennis was probaly more worried who was going to see them together and didnt have time to think. Probaly could of kicked himself once jack drove away.
 
if time were not a moving thing if i could make it stay this hour of love we share would allways be
there would be no coming days to shine a morning  light make us realise our night is over.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #93 on: Oct 19, 2007, 11:36 AM »
Hello MPJ!

I do have this feeling that there was a part of Ennis -- voluntary or involuntary -- that tried to pull away.  When we say that Ennis is conflicted, we assume that there are forces pulling him apart -- in both ways. 

My feeling is that as Ennis got older, perhaps his fears and isolation were getting the better of him.  As you said, he was not as care-free and as confident as he was back in 63.  And perhaps there was the involuntary (?) pull to create some distance between himself and the love that had, afterall, caused him so much internal agony as much as it gave him joy.

It's not that he wanted Jack to go away.  It's just that there was a part of him that yearned for the burden inside him to be lifted, as a person trapped in a cave years for the storm to end.

Most of us can understand this, I think.  Sometimes, we do things in spite of ourselves.  We recognize the pull of certain things, even as we recognize that we sometimes years for what opposes it.

Let me start this way.  Does this make sense to you?


I suppose I´ve understand,although sometimes it´s rather difficult for me because I can´t manage myself very well still in English... ~) Yes,he was catched between his duties-family,job,social pressures,etc-and the love he had for Jack.Indeed,a rather loud burden to lift by himself...Maybe unconsciously he was forcing Jack to arrive to this point of giving up.Do I understand or... *^)
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline jessi

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #94 on: Oct 19, 2007, 11:45 AM »
I suppose I´ve understand,although sometimes it´s rather difficult for me because I can´t manage myself very well still in English... ~) Yes,he was catched between his duties-family,job,social pressures,etc-and the love he had for Jack.Indeed,a rather loud burden to lift by himself...Maybe unconsciously he was forcing Jack to arrive to this point of giving up.Do I understand or... *^)

you did very well in English.  And wow do I disagree.  I also do not think either was being selfish, anymore than they had been since 1963.  they knew each other, knew the way it was and all this just had not been said.  Ennis had promised jack a long visit in August and Jack had cut his heart out the night at the campfire, and in the book that wasn't the night before either probably so Ennis had even more time to think on this.   I think Ennis was getting in a tighter box here, wouldn't be long before the childsupport would be over, getting old and harder to tramp all over the place, perhaps even worrying about more people coming in contact with them in the wild.  The one thing he did not want was to lose Jack, never see him again yet the way things were going couldn't last, but again, jack walking away forever was not what he was going for.  Of course he sent that post card, and I believe only one thing would have kept jack from being there.  Maybe something would have happened then to change the course, maybe not, it is a space, but not him being there.

jessi
I'm like one tiny insignificant star,
where your wonder shines on.
 
No thunder, not a storm
just rain, soft as tears wetting a cheek,
wiped with the ground. Mountain, heart stomped,
moans.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #95 on: Oct 19, 2007, 11:58 AM »
you did very well in English.  And wow do I disagree.  I also do not think either was being selfish, anymore than they had been since 1963.  they knew each other, knew the way it was and all this just had not been said.  Ennis had promised jack a long visit in August and Jack had cut his heart out the night at the campfire, and in the book that wasn't the night before either probably so Ennis had even more time to think on this.   I think Ennis was getting in a tighter box here, wouldn't be long before the childsupport would be over, getting old and harder to tramp all over the place, perhaps even worrying about more people coming in contact with them in the wild.  The one thing he did not want was to lose Jack, never see him again yet the way things were going couldn't last, but again, jack walking away forever was not what he was going for.  Of course he sent that post card, and I believe only one thing would have kept jack from being there.  Maybe something would have happened then to change the course, maybe not, it is a space, but not him being there.

jessi
Well,I was only saying that both of them didin´t understand-or aren´t able to fulfill-the other needs,they seem to be too catched in "their own loop" to put themselves in the other´s place sometimes.Is not this a kind of shellfishness?Yes,we´re shellfish when we love somebody and,at the same time,we´re able to do the greatest sacrifices...It´s in the human nature,I guess ^^)  or  #).They are our heroes,but even the heroes have their faults,and not for this we love them less-not me...- <^(
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #96 on: Oct 19, 2007, 12:05 PM »
Thanks LF, MPJ, and jessi.

For me, in particular, I love them specifically for their faults, and I can sympathize even with a conflicted Ennis, in the sense that everyone has been there: when we feel that we want and don't want something at the same time.

My own feeling is that Ennis was never simple, as much as Jack was not simple.  The same way that Jack loved Ennis even though he played around with other men, Ennis loved Jack even though there was something in him that struggled against loving another man.   

I think both of them are very human.




Offline jessi

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #97 on: Oct 19, 2007, 03:21 PM »
Thanks LF, MPJ, and jessi.

For me, in particular, I love them specifically for their faults, and I can sympathize even with a conflicted Ennis, in the sense that everyone has been there: when we feel that we want and don't want something at the same time.

My own feeling is that Ennis was never simple, as much as Jack was not simple.  The same way that Jack loved Ennis even though he played around with other men, Ennis loved Jack even though there was something in him that struggled against loving another man.   

I think both of them are very human.





I don't know if anybody is simple.  Jack's love for Ennis was all consuming.  The small amount of sex with other men had to be heartbreaking for him, and he explained why it happened at all.  Maybe till that point ennis didn't know, or didn't have to admit, how bad it got for Jack, bad enough that sometimes he actually sought out someone else, but that had no bearing on his love for Ennis. Jack understood Ennis, knew why he didn't give in to happiness, but must have been torture to try and accept, knowing it didn't have to be that way.  Ennis' love for Jack was absolute, timeless, and life defining.  They were human in complicated times, personal histories, circumstance... gentle souls and intelligent minds... they were good men who loved each other, so much that even all that was against them couldn't prevail; it could keep from having the sweet life, could keep them tormented, but couldn't allow them to let go.
I'm like one tiny insignificant star,
where your wonder shines on.
 
No thunder, not a storm
just rain, soft as tears wetting a cheek,
wiped with the ground. Mountain, heart stomped,
moans.

Offline tpe

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #98 on: Oct 22, 2007, 08:54 AM »
I don't know if anybody is simple.  Jack's love for Ennis was all consuming.  The small amount of sex with other men had to be heartbreaking for him, and he explained why it happened at all.   Maybe till that point ennis didn't know, or didn't have to admit, how bad it got for Jack, bad enough that sometimes he actually sought out someone else, but that had no bearing on his love for Ennis. Jack understood Ennis, knew why he didn't give in to happiness, but must have been torture to try and accept, knowing it didn't have to be that way.  Ennis' love for Jack was absolute, timeless, and life defining.  They were human in complicated times, personal histories, circumstance... gentle souls and intelligent minds... they were good men who loved each other, so much that even all that was against them couldn't prevail; it could keep from having the sweet life, could keep them tormented, but couldn't allow them to let go.

I had the same impression.  Did you notice that Jack's face as he entered the dark alley in Juarez didn't exactly look happy?  There was determination, yes, but he seemed like someone who was wishing to forget, and not exactly someone who was in search of pleasure...

« Last Edit: Oct 23, 2007, 07:49 AM by tpe »

Offline jessi

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #99 on: Oct 22, 2007, 11:44 AM »
I had the same impression.  Did you notice that Jack's face as he entered the dark alley in Juarez didn't exactly look happy?  There was determination, yes, but he seemed like someone who was wishing to forget, and not exactly someone who was in search of pleasure...



He was mad, so very hurt, his dreams kicked in the butt.  The pain is tangible.  Jack was getting back at Ennis and slamming his fist emotionally into a windshield.  Utter heartbreak, and Jake was perfect.

« Last Edit: Oct 23, 2007, 07:48 AM by tpe »
I'm like one tiny insignificant star,
where your wonder shines on.
 
No thunder, not a storm
just rain, soft as tears wetting a cheek,
wiped with the ground. Mountain, heart stomped,
moans.

Offline jessi

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #100 on: Oct 22, 2007, 11:45 AM »
OH NO!  I just hit 200 messages, I want Lureen back! OH NO! lol
I'm like one tiny insignificant star,
where your wonder shines on.
 
No thunder, not a storm
just rain, soft as tears wetting a cheek,
wiped with the ground. Mountain, heart stomped,
moans.

Offline tpe

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #101 on: Oct 23, 2007, 07:50 AM »
Jack was getting back at Ennis and slamming his fist emotionally into a windshield. 

I love this description.  Thank you jessi!

OT: congratulations, although I am sorry that you dislike the associations on your new title!  :)


Offline samwise_fan1965

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #102 on: Nov 05, 2007, 10:39 PM »
Something that caught my eye was that it seems (at least to me) like the only time we see Ennis truly happy is when he is standing on the landing at the reunion and later when he is smiling up at the stars. In both scenes we see Ennis with his guard down. When he is smiling down at Jack just before he runs down the stairs he looks so happy. Later, when he is sending up that little prayer, I love that little smile of joy on his face.

Offline tpe

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #103 on: Nov 06, 2007, 08:21 AM »
Something that caught my eye was that it seems (at least to me) like the only time we see Ennis truly happy is when he is standing on the landing at the reunion and later when he is smiling up at the stars. In both scenes we see Ennis with his guard down. When he is smiling down at Jack just before he runs down the stairs he looks so happy. Later, when he is sending up that little prayer, I love that little smile of joy on his face.


Yes, I think the reunion scenes show Ennis at his most incandescent.  We can also include the playful Whitmanesque times they shared up on BBM, and in the Dozy Embrace, you see him and Jack contented.


Offline samwise_fan1965

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #104 on: Nov 07, 2007, 11:05 PM »
Hi tpe! I like the embrace as well and wish like everyone else that we could have seen more of this type of thing from Ennis. There are times when he reminds so much of someone I used to know that it is scary, and then there are times he reminds me of myself at various times in life. But I guess we can all relate to these two fellows in one way or another!

Offline tpe

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #105 on: Nov 08, 2007, 09:10 AM »
Hi tpe! I like the embrace as well and wish like everyone else that we could have seen more of this type of thing from Ennis. There are times when he reminds so much of someone I used to know that it is scary, and then there are times he reminds me of myself at various times in life. But I guess we can all relate to these two fellows in one way or another!

It is perhaps the scene where we see them most visibly happy.  It is a happiness so different from that other great scene of happiness: the Dozy Embrace, no?  Whereas the former is all blazing and full of passion, the other is quiet and almost painful to view in all its beauty.

In both cases, we have an unforgettable embrace, no?  I agree, Ennis was so impulsive in the Reunion embrace, that it was scary. But in the Dozy embrace, he was deliberate.  We see two sides of his nature here. 


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #106 on: Nov 08, 2007, 09:41 AM »
Something that caught my eye was that it seems (at least to me) like the only time we see Ennis truly happy is when he is standing on the landing at the reunion and later when he is smiling up at the stars. In both scenes we see Ennis with his guard down. When he is smiling down at Jack just before he runs down the stairs he looks so happy. Later, when he is sending up that little prayer, I love that little smile of joy on his face.


Yup  <^(
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #107 on: Nov 15, 2007, 04:27 PM »
The morning of the confrontation, the scene starts out with both of them behind the back of Ennis's horse trailor, no doubt settling thm in for the ride home, but I see Ennis wiping his mouth before he picks up Jack's saddle, A sloppy goodbye kiss from Jack?....

btw, I don't recall Jack owning a horse of his own, and he owns a saddle? Anyway the horses saw and heard it all did'nt they? Best seat in the house, like a fly on the wall so to speak.

 I also see a rifle and various other items belonging to Jack, but no fishing pole. Hey Lureen, guess what! Did'nt she have a clue?  And later on, " Husbands don't ever wanna to dance with their wives", "Why is that Jack"? I hear a suspicious taunt, but maybe I'm wrong.  Hmmmm telling? Just a few observations of mine. Thanks.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #108 on: Nov 15, 2007, 06:10 PM »
The morning of the confrontation, the scene starts out with both of them behind the back of Ennis's horse trailor, no doubt settling thm in for the ride home, but I see Ennis wiping his mouth before he picks up Jack's saddle, A sloppy goodbye kiss from Jack?....

btw, I don't recall Jack owning a horse of his own, and he owns a saddle? Anyway the horses saw and heard it all did'nt they? Best seat in the house, like a fly on the wall so to speak.

 I also see a rifle and various other items belonging to Jack, but no fishing pole. Hey Lureen, guess what! Did'nt she have a clue?  And later on, " Husbands don't ever wanna to dance with their wives", "Why is that Jack"? I hear a suspicious taunt, but maybe I'm wrong.  Hmmmm telling? Just a few observations of mine. Thanks.

AF that had been so beautiful!!!  <^( I would had liked to see that goodbye kiss!!!!

Well, when Ennis called Lureen after Jack's death, she said that she knew who he was, Jack's fishing or hunting buddy!!! Because they used to hunt too!! Well, fishing and hunting, and "fishing and hunting", you know....  >:D

Offline tpe

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #109 on: Nov 16, 2007, 08:24 AM »
The morning of the confrontation, the scene starts out with both of them behind the back of Ennis's horse trailor, no doubt settling thm in for the ride home, but I see Ennis wiping his mouth before he picks up Jack's saddle, A sloppy goodbye kiss from Jack?....

A wonderful thought, aintfoolin!

Quote
btw, I don't recall Jack owning a horse of his own, and he owns a saddle? Anyway the horses saw and heard it all did'nt they? Best seat in the house, like a fly on the wall so to speak.

It is curious to think how the horses would have felt if they were truly sentient beings, although Buddhist thought has always thought so.


Quote
I also see a rifle and various other items belonging to Jack, but no fishing pole. Hey Lureen, guess what! Did'nt she have a clue?  And later on, " Husbands don't ever wanna to dance with their wives", "Why is that Jack"? I hear a suspicious taunt, but maybe I'm wrong.  Hmmmm telling? Just a few observations of mine. Thanks.

I noticed thais too.   I had assumed that he did have one, but that it was never really shown.  IN any case, I don't Lureen would have cared that much to notice...

Wonderful points of observation here, aintfoolin!


Offline tpe

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #110 on: Nov 16, 2007, 08:29 AM »

Well, when Ennis called Lureen after Jack's death, she said that she knew who he was, Jack's fishing or hunting buddy!!! Because they used to hunt too!! Well, fishing and hunting, and "fishing and hunting", you know....  >:D

Very good point, babytammy7!  It also shows that Lureen was pretty much disinterested, and this probably worked to Jack's benefit over the years.


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #111 on: Nov 16, 2007, 09:55 AM »
The morning of the confrontation, the scene starts out with both of them behind the back of Ennis's horse trailor, no doubt settling thm in for the ride home, but I see Ennis wiping his mouth before he picks up Jack's saddle, A sloppy goodbye kiss from Jack?....

btw, I don't recall Jack owning a horse of his own, and he owns a saddle? Anyway the horses saw and heard it all did'nt they? Best seat in the house, like a fly on the wall so to speak.

 I also see a rifle and various other items belonging to Jack, but no fishing pole. Hey Lureen, guess what! Did'nt she have a clue?  And later on, " Husbands don't ever wanna to dance with their wives", "Why is that Jack"? I hear a suspicious taunt, but maybe I'm wrong.  Hmmmm telling? Just a few observations of mine. Thanks.

I also noticed Ennis was quick to help Jack with heavy lifting, like the man usually does. I think this settles the question of who is which role. ;)

In the short story, I think the horse trailers is also on Jack's truck, but it makes more sense for Ennis. 14 hours with horses on a trailer is torture in the summer. Jack is rich enough to own his own saddle and horses, too. But I think Ennis always provides the horses and some of the non-perishables, while Jack always bring the food, beer, etc. Like the time after the reunion, Ennis was late, Jack was already peeling potatoes and putting them into the pot, like that time in '63 when Ennis came back after his first night out, and washed everywhere he could reach.

I think on the phone with Ennis, Lureen said something about "fishing buddy or hunting buddy, I knew that" so she wasn't sure or cared about what they did up there. She still suspected something. When Ennis said they herded sheep in Brokeback one summer in '63, and that Jack's favorite place was Brokeback, but never told her about Ennis and their twenty year friendship/relationship, she KNEW the reason Jack's long drives two three times each year, and all his drinking and lack of romance. She teared up real quick, but caught her composure to tell Ennis to go visit Lightning Flat. Then she hung up real cold and fast. Ennis was caught off guard. Anne Hathaway is such an amazing actress to bring out the charm and pain of Lureen. I like that better than the cold character in the short story. She also suffered so much, without the shock and trauma of what Alma went through. Their song is "No one loves you like I do" and Jack is certainly not loving her like any man. The irony must be a painful reminder every time they want to dance. Maybe THAT's why they never dance. Jack is reminded of the loneliness without Ennis, and Lureen is reminded of a husband who is inattentive or worse. I think she buries her love for Jack in the books, in the business to remind herself that he wasn't a mistake. She still loves him, as can be seen in the Thanksgiving scene. She also looked at him lovingly when their child was born. Jack was just too insecure at that time to stand up to old Newsome. Instead he went and sent the first postcard to Ennis. I guess in a way we have old Newsome to thank for the movie. Without him, Jack would never be driven back to Ennis' loving arms. He may play the loving father all his life, keeping the two shirts secret with only Jack's Ma knowing. Naw...Jack would've send that postcard sooner or later. Love is a force of nature. And every year when he visits Lightning Flat, the reminder will be there.



Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #112 on: Nov 18, 2007, 04:55 PM »
 This is something that has baffled me.

When Aguirre came into camp to inform Jack that his uncle was sick, was'nt Ennis suppose to be "pasturing the woolies" somewhere else? and was Jack's uncle really sick? or was this a "clever attempt by Aguirre to find out what was goin on up there? I mean in light of what he'd seen....????
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #113 on: Nov 18, 2007, 09:00 PM »
This is something that has baffled me.

When Aguirre came into camp to inform Jack that his uncle was sick, was'nt Ennis suppose to be "pasturing the woolies" somewhere else? and was Jack's uncle really sick? or was this a "clever attempt by Aguirre to find out what was goin on up there? I mean in light of what he'd seen....????

I don't think Aguirre would make up a story to go visit. He can come and go anytime. Thing is, he made a point with Jack, with the binoculars, like it says in the short story, that he can see what goes on up there in the mountain, and he wanted Jack, at least, to know that he knows what's going on. And the fact is, Jack knew that Aguirre knew, but didn't tell anything to Ennis. Is that friendship, or just protecting his own couple of high-altitude fu@$s a couple atimes a year? No matter what, I think true friendship speaks honestly. Jack isn't perfect, but he loves Ennis, and love can forgives a lot. Ennis can forgive Jack just about anything, even Mexico.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #114 on: Nov 19, 2007, 08:36 AM »
I don't think Aguirre would make up a story to go visit. He can come and go anytime. Thing is, he made a point with Jack, with the binoculars, like it says in the short story, that he can see what goes on up there in the mountain, and he wanted Jack, at least, to know that he knows what's going on. And the fact is, Jack knew that Aguirre knew, but didn't tell anything to Ennis. Is that friendship, or just protecting his own couple of high-altitude fu@$s a couple atimes a year? No matter what, I think true friendship speaks honestly. Jack isn't perfect, but he loves Ennis, and love can forgives a lot. Ennis can forgive Jack just about anything, even Mexico.

I do think that Aguirre pointing his binoculars up at where Ennis was working was a velied way of telling Jack that he (Aguirre) had seen what they were doing.

aintfoolin, what made you think that Ennis was pasturing the sheep somewhere else?




Offline aintfoolin

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #115 on: Nov 20, 2007, 05:10 AM »
  Tpe,

  Aguirre stated that he wanted the camper tender one place and the herder pasturing the sheep someplace else. Maybe I'm wrong but they appear to be in camp together, though Ennis is doing his job at that moment..  What time of day is it when this occurs? Looks to me like Aguirre spied on them having their love/wrestle fest that morning,  Did Jack leave camp with Ennis later that morning? or did Ennis never leave Jack? I'm confused I guess.  I am assuming it is still the day following SNIT and Ennis spent the whole night in camp with Jack. If you have another take on this , I'd be grateful,  please inform? Thanks.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline tpe

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #116 on: Nov 20, 2007, 07:43 AM »
  Tpe,

  Aguirre stated that he wanted the camper tender one place and the herder pasturing the sheep someplace else. Maybe I'm wrong but they appear to be in camp together, though Ennis is doing his job at that moment..  What time of day is it when this occurs? Looks to me like Aguirre spied on them having their love/wrestle fest that morning,  Did Jack leave camp with Ennis later that morning? or did Ennis never leave Jack? I'm confused I guess.  I am assuming it is still the day following SNIT and Ennis spent the whole night in camp with Jack. If you have another take on this , I'd be grateful,  please inform? Thanks.

Hello aintfoolin.  I don't think they were in camp together at that point.  Aguirre was pointing his binoculars way up on Brokeback mountain, where Ennis was pasturing the sheep.  IT's the same distance when Ennis looks up the mountain at Jack early in the movie -- Jack is a small speck to him from the camp site.  Yes, I think Aguirre spied on them that morning and probably reached Jack later that day; by then, Ennis had already left to go to the sheep high up on Brokeback.  And yes, I think he did spend the night with Jack, against Aguirre's instructions.


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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #117 on: Nov 21, 2007, 06:39 AM »
The sheep, beans, coyotes, and snowfall weren't important anymore, Ennis slept every night with Jack, awoke with him every morning, then it's over so suddenly.   The one human being in his whole life he connected with, and he was being taken away so soon.   How powerless he must have felt with Jack driving off, and there was nothing he could do about it, but fall on his knees and retch. 

The pain of loss, was so unbearable, and how human. 


 

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #118 on: Nov 21, 2007, 09:46 AM »
The sheep, beans, coyotes, and snowfall weren't important anymore, Ennis slept every night with Jack, awoke with him every morning, then it's over so suddenly.   The one human being in his whole life he connected with, and he was being taken away so soon.   How powerless he must have felt with Jack driving off, and there was nothing he could do about it, but fall on his knees and retch. 

The pain of loss, was so unbearable, and how human. 
 

You alway hit me where the truth is. There is no hiding from you, MG.

Every word your wrote above, and I bolded, was exactly what I felt when that phone call came, and the sky caved in on me twenty seven years ago. I denied it for a while, and even now I try not to remember it. In fact, I forgot about it until now. And I remember sitting on a grassy hill, like Ennis did, thinking ...  :\'(

No wonder that scene held special meaning to me all this time. I was there on that hill. Funny how memories can fade, but we still remember.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: scenes of observation
« Reply #119 on: Nov 24, 2007, 06:36 PM »
Hello aintfoolin.  I don't think they were in camp together at that point.  Aguirre was pointing his binoculars way up on Brokeback mountain, where Ennis was pasturing the sheep.  IT's the same distance when Ennis looks up the mountain at Jack early in the movie -- Jack is a small speck to him from the camp site.  Yes, I think Aguirre spied on them that morning and probably reached Jack later that day; by then, Ennis had already left to go to the sheep high up on Brokeback.  And yes, I think he did spend the night with Jack, against Aguirre's instructions.



Thanks Tpe for setting the record straight, to me the way the scene is presented , Ennis seems closer.
L Cowboy, sorry for your past experience concerning your loss, I'm glad you find solace within  the movie and this forum. Amazing! You and MG have a gift of extrordinary insight.  A wonderful way of word expression, I learn something every time you post. Thanks.

Ennis was seemingly powerless, but in reality he was not without choices. He made the one he thought best at the time imo. The passer-by who stopped to observe Ennis in the alley, out of concern was the recipient of Ennis's anger, anger at who? Jack? himself? or just the whole damn situation?Apparently, when he feels powerless, he punches things, or someone. I doubt he felt the physical pain of punching a brick wall, but the emotional impact of  pain and loss ,loosing Jack was  so overwhelming for him.In my opinion he could've used a punching bag.  :( :c)Great acting on Ledgers's part here. Just an observation.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...