Topic: scenes of observation

[tpe]

hmmm well I find myself concentrating on Ennis (who can blame me)? but I kind of find this scene cute from start to finish how Ennis acts. It's a scene that makes me smile  I'll try to watch the other guy more next time to form my opinion on him 

OK, do let us know what you think.  I just can't help viewing him as slightly contemptuous -- I hope this is not too strong a word!

[aintfoolin]

I feel the basque was just doing his job as an employee of Aguirre's. I don't see contempt with him warning Ennis that Aguirre will "have your ass" if Ennis let the sheep stray or telling Ennis that the soup boxes were harder to pack. Maybe Ennis did'nt get the "spuds" or the powdered milk, but he did get a smile from the basque. I think he liked Ennis, and would have gotten him the soup like Ennis wanted. MO.


The horses they used on Brokeback look like the same horses Ennis owned later on. Hmmmm.

Did Ennis ever get his own lighter, or borrowed Jack's all summer? Maybe cigarettes, and matches came in supply with the whiskey, what a boss Aguirre was!.

Jack had all the *extra* blankets. Enough to make pillows etc...

Jack was crappy with the can opener, but excellent with the lasso.

[tpe]

I feel the basque was just doing his job as an employee of Aguirre's. I don't see contempt with him warning Ennis that Aguirre will "have your ass" if Ennis let the sheep stray or telling Ennis that the soup boxes were harder to pack. Maybe Ennis did'nt get the "spuds" or the powdered milk, but he did get a smile from the basque. I think he liked Ennis, and would have gotten him the soup like Ennis wanted. MO.


The horses they used on Brokeback look like the same horses Ennis owned later on. Hmmmm.

Did Ennis ever get his own lighter, or borrowed Jack's all summer? Maybe cigarettes, and matches came in supply with the whiskey, what a boss Aguirre was!.

Jack had all the *extra* blankets. Enough to make pillows etc...

Jack was crappy with the can opener, but excellent with the lasso.

I thought the basque was slightly contemptuous because he had the nerve to tell Ennis what he should NOT order (i.e., the soup) -- because it was hard for him to pack.  If he were a disinterested employee of Aguirre, then he would have simply done his job, no matter what Ennis ordered.  Also the way he said "that's all we've got", was a bit dismissive of Ennis, and Ennis couldn't say anything to that...

And I loved the scene with the can opener!  As I posted before, it is possible that Jack spilling the beans on himself was unplanned, and Jake's reaction was spontaneous and charming. 

[babytammy7]

I know I posted this in the Ennis Del Mar pics thread, but I'd like to post it here too because I think that "this" is really interesting and unique and I wish I could get an answer from some of you about what that pillow means. I can't stop think about that since I found it. It gives me so many goosebumps every time I see it.

I quote myself, sorry. 

Have you noticed THOSE PILLOWS? One grey and the other one white? The grey one seems to be the one Ennis used every night because it's grey from using it so much, and it's all wrinkle and wasted......But the pure white one is immaculate, clean and without wrinkles......So it's obvious that Ennis didn't use it....

But then, why Ennis slept with two pillows? I know that some people do that, but they use BOTH pillows......but it seems to me that Ennis didn't ever touch that pillow, and still he had it with him, in his bed.....

Is that pillow for his Jack?  :\'( :\'( :\'( What that pristine pillow means?

I wish someone of the brokies met Diana O. had asked her about this.

[rimasworld]

Wow Tammy good observation, maybe this is another symbol? 

[rimasworld]

In the scene where Ennis is asking Jack if he ever went some place and people looked at him like they knew? (knew what?) Wasn't this Ennis' round about way of admitting his homosexuality? That entire scene to me seemed like Ennis was trying to come out but didn't know how.

[tpe]

Thanks Tammy.  I do find this detail intriguing -- if not downright haunting...

[Ranchand1]

      Don't remember that shot from the movie myself.

      It is something to ponder.  Wish I had some answer.  I rarely understand what I do let alone what someone else has done.

      Wanted to ask...

       If anyone noticed the difference and similarity between..

       "Jack fu**in Twist"   Ennis says at the reunion said withe elation as he bounds down the stairs.

       Compaired to..

       "Jack fu**in Twist"  Said at the last meeting with such anger/frustration realization?

        Twists me all up in knots.

       "Get beaver fever doin that"

[ethan]

Very interesting thread.

It took me many viewing after some time to notice the brand of the tractor



I thought it is interesting.

[jackster]

In the scene where Ennis is asking Jack if he ever went some place and people looked at him like they knew? (knew what?) Wasn't this Ennis' round about way of admitting his homosexuality? That entire scene to me seemed like Ennis was trying to come out but didn't know how.

I share your view here. I've always felt in this one scene Ennis is finally trying to open up to Jack about being queer, trying to verbally punch out his emotions here. You know how hard this musta' been for Ennis to talk about something like this. Unfortunately, just like what happened years earlier up on BBM when they were forced to break-up camp (He's cuttin' us out a whole months pay), Jack completely misses Ennis's expressed inner turmoil here and provides a work-a-day, logical response. And, just like years earlier, Ennis angrily interprets Jack's response as light and frivolous. The similarities in these two scenes is striking to me.

[manhattangirl]

I share your view here. I've always felt in this one scene Ennis is finally trying to open up to Jack about being queer, trying to verbally punch out his emotions here. You know how hard this musta' been for Ennis to talk about something like this. Unfortunately, just like what happened years earlier up on BBM when they were forced to break-up camp (He's cuttin' us out a whole months pay), Jack completely misses Ennis's expressed inner turmoil here and provides a work-a-day, logical response. And, just like years earlier, Ennis angrily interprets Jack's response as light and frivolous. The similarities in these two scenes is striking to me.

You are so right, Ennis was in the only way he could was reaching out to Jack, in both cases Jack wasn't able to read Ennis well enough to recognize the signs.  Some how, I may be wrong, but they really weren't able to get a real beat on each other's emotional state seeing it as something else from their own point of view, could this be because of scarcity of time they had with each other?

[tpe]

Very interesting thread.

It took me many viewing after some time to notice the brand of the tractor

I thought it is interesting.

And amusing, in a way.  I suspect that it is an oblique reference to Jack, although to see it on a tractor somehow feels slightly incongruous!

[tpe]

I share your view here. I've always felt in this one scene Ennis is finally trying to open up to Jack about being queer, trying to verbally punch out his emotions here. You know how hard this musta' been for Ennis to talk about something like this. Unfortunately, just like what happened years earlier up on BBM when they were forced to break-up camp (He's cuttin' us out a whole months pay), Jack completely misses Ennis's expressed inner turmoil here and provides a work-a-day, logical response. And, just like years earlier, Ennis angrily interprets Jack's response as light and frivolous. The similarities in these two scenes is striking to me.

You are so right, Ennis was in the only way he could was reaching out to Jack, in both cases Jack wasn't able to read Ennis well enough to recognize the signs.  Some how, I may be wrong, but they really weren't able to get a real beat on each other's emotional state seeing it as something else from their own point of view, could this be because of scarcity of time they had with each other?

Interesting.  I did feel that somehow, this scene was unique, in that it was one of the rare instances when Ennis opens up to Jack about his own fears as well as the way he sees himself (albeit through the supposed eyes of others.)  If one reads some paranoia in this, one can say that Ennis is perhaps projecting his own feelings and knowledge about himself into the eyes and reactions of other people.

[rimasworld]

You are so right, Ennis was in the only way he could was reaching out to Jack, in both cases Jack wasn't able to read Ennis well enough to recognize the signs.  Some how, I may be wrong, but they really weren't able to get a real beat on each other's emotional state seeing it as something else from their own point of view, could this be because of scarcity of time they had with each other?

Maybe it wasn't so much the lack of time but more the era of the time Ennis and Jack were brought up in. This was when men were supposed to be the strong silent types when it came to feelings and they had difficulty expressing anything of a personal nature, just kept alot inside, and this caused the miscommunication. It was looked on I think as a form of weakness to admit these things, you just took it like a man and kept quiet for the most part. And heaven forbid you ever let someone see you cry, that made you a sissy, less of a man.

[Ranchand1]

     Rimasworld

     Just wanted to say.

     Those attitudes are alive and well still today.  Least wheres I'm from.

     You can shed a tear when your horse dies but dont you dare cry over your daddy's passin. 

      I enjoy your discussion on Ennis here.  Yep Jackster you hit the nail on the head.  Jacks response sent Ennis into himself again slammin the door closed.

       

    "If you want to live your miserable life go right ahead."

     

[manhattangirl]

Maybe it wasn't so much the lack of time but more the era of the time Ennis and Jack were brought up in. This was when men were supposed to be the strong silent types when it came to feelings and they had difficulty expressing anything of a personal nature, just kept alot inside, and this caused the miscommunication. It was looked on I think as a form of weakness to admit these things, you just took it like a man and kept quiet for the most part. And heaven forbid you ever let someone see you cry, that made you a sissy, less of a man.

I'm wondering, maybe you answer this for me.  Ennis showed more of his vulnerability to Jack than he did with either Alma or Cassie.    Jack at times I feel you had did quite get understand Ennis and his inner turmoil, that Jack was acting more like a "guy" in the sense you almost have to hit over the head to make him understand, (I know I'm gonna get crucified on that one), but sometimes it happens. 

Ennis let his guard down, felt he could ask those questions of Jack, like  "you ever get the feeling they know", but Jack just didn't get it.   
 

[tpe]

I sometimes wonder whever Jack was being totally honest to Ennis in that scene -- that it was "normal" between him and Lureen.  I wonder whether he simply denied any problem because he wanted to reassure Ennis, or at least not admit that all this was affecting his marriage.

[rimasworld]

     Rimasworld

     Just wanted to say.

     Those attitudes are alive and well still today.  Least wheres I'm from.

     You can shed a tear when your horse dies but dont you dare cry over your daddy's passin. 

      I enjoy your discussion on Ennis here.  Yep Jackster you hit the nail on the head.  Jacks response sent Ennis into himself again slammin the door closed.

       

    "If you want to live your miserable life go right ahead."

     

Yeah, we have still have some of those gary cooper type cowboys here too. I still can't believe Jack was so obtuse he let what Ennis said go over his head. I mean he wasn't dumb but I think he had that mindset like Ennis of hey I'm a man and not a "queer". We know things were not "normal" between him and Lureen but he felt the need to say they were. Maybe it was all those years of walking on eggshells around Ennis, but here imo Ennis was trying to finally open the door about sexual preference. To me it seems sometimes Jack was more closed off about his feelings. Again, products of their era.

[rimasworld]

I'm wondering, maybe you answer this for me.  Ennis showed more of his vulnerability to Jack than he did with either Alma or Cassie.    Jack at times I feel you had did quite get understand Ennis and his inner turmoil, that Jack was acting more like a "guy" in the sense you almost have to hit over the head to make him understand, (I know I'm gonna get crucified on that one), but sometimes it happens. 

Ennis let his guard down, felt he could ask those questions of Jack, like  "you ever get the feeling they know", but Jack just didn't get it.   
 

yeah Jack's only response was "maybe you should get out of there, move to texas" and this just frustrated Ennis and there they went again into another misunderstanding.

[Ranchand1]

     That was a hard scene for me.

     Full of frustration and misunderstanding.  Missed chances.

     I dint know if it would have clicked what Ennis was tryin to say at that moment, myself.  However an hour later It might have hit me.   

     " and just maybe Laureen will adopt two young girls..

     

[lancecowboy]

I'm wondering, maybe you answer this for me.  Ennis showed more of his vulnerability to Jack than he did with either Alma or Cassie.    Jack at times I feel you had did quite get understand Ennis and his inner turmoil, that Jack was acting more like a "guy" in the sense you almost have to hit over the head to make him understand, (I know I'm gonna get crucified on that one), but sometimes it happens. 

Ennis let his guard down, felt he could ask those questions of Jack, like  "you ever get the feeling they know", but Jack just didn't get it.   
 

If anyone's going hit you over the head, manhattangirl, they'd have to hit me, too. Because I have always felt Jack was being insensitive in that scene. He just finished talking about high finance and all, and poor Ennis was trying to open up. Jack was still stuck on his own luxurious life in Texas, and not paying no mind to Ennis' pain. The two were beginning to drift apart from that Thanksgiving...and this was just another rift in the fabric of their friendship.

It's that interesting what you said about Jack being the typical guy in that scene. I always thought Ennis was the typical guy, strong and silent, while Jack was the emotional girlie type. By that scene, and certainly the final meeting scene, their roles have reversed, with Jack being the macho stud, and Ennis the cry baby. This never occurred to me until now. Thanks.

[Ranchand1]

     Cry baby...Macho stud

     What movie we talkin about again?

     I never thought of Jack as a macho stud or a girlyman.

     I certainly never thought of Ennis as a crybaby.

     I think something went over my head and I need some wings to catch it.
     
     I always thought they leveled each other out. Together made a whole.   
 the ebb and flow of relationship.

     One is strong at certain times the other is weak.  Then the other will have a bad time of it and the other step up. 

    Maybe I need another trip up that mountain.

    "You been to Mexico?"

     
     

     

[lancecowboy]

     Cry baby...Macho stud

     What movie we talkin about again?

     I never thought of Jack as a macho stud or a girlyman.

     I certainly never thought of Ennis as a crybaby.

     I think something went over my head and I need some wings to catch it.
     
     I always thought they leveled each other out. Together made a whole.   
 the ebb and flow of relationship.

     One is strong at certain times the other is weak.  Then the other will have a bad time of it and the other step up. 

    Maybe I need another trip up that mountain.

    "You been to Mexico?"

  Maybe I exaggerated a touch. No, Jack is no girlie man, but he is more emotional, and in touch with his feelings, like women more than men. And Ennis is the more masculine, in the sense of uptight uncomfortable talking about his feelings.

And no, Ennis was not a cry baby, but he became more in touch with his emotions, more self-aware.

As for Jack being a macho stud, isn't that what the mustache and leather jacket were suppose to tell us? He was trying to convey that I am a stud and you better do as I tell ya.

And no, Ranchand, you got them perfectly. No need to go up the mountain again, unless you want to.

[tpe]

     
     I always thought they leveled each other out. Together made a whole.   
 the ebb and flow of relationship.

     One is strong at certain times the other is weak.  Then the other will have a bad time of it and the other step up.      

I quote here the very same lines that lance highlighted, to show my agreement.  I do think that they were well matched.  One can argue that the match was not perfect, but one has to concede that they covered each other's weaknesses and kept the love going.

[Ranchand1]

     I don't know if there is such a thing as the perfect relationship.

     I mean how would you ever get to the hot make ups!

     Theres sometin to be said for a good fight every once in a while.  I think it can convey passion as well as get your point across. 

     Like Ennis I tend to hold things in to long then it comes out as anger. 

     "Them things i don't know...all them things I don't know."

[lancecowboy]

     I don't know if there is such a thing as the perfect relationship.

     I mean how would you ever get to the hot make ups!

     Theres sometin to be said for a good fight every once in a while.  I think it can convey passion as well as get your point across. 

     Like Ennis I tend to hold things in to long then it comes out as anger. 

     "Them things i don't know...all them things I don't know."

A perfect relationship is not about always agreeing with each other, and not having differences of opinions.

As we see in this forum, viva la difference. What matters is that while having differences of opinions, they respected each other, and did not ridicule or demean each other, ever. That says a lot about a relationship. They held each others' hearts in their own heart. Their love is the opposite of the stud ducks who always put others down. That's anti-love, toxic-love, if you can call it love at all. In fact, some people claim to have a lot of love, but their love is nothing like Ennis and Jack, more like John Twist and Old Newsome. Those kind of anti-love is better to do without.

Truthfulness, and respect for each other...Faithfulness, and loyalty for each other...That's Ennis and Jack at their best.

They are not always at their best, but enough times to make it memorable.

[Ranchand1]

    Trust and respect, faithfulness.   Preachin to the choir here.  I think it takes several trips around the mountain and some erosion of time till people get these.

    I have seen plenty of people "in love" that like to beat the crap out of one another. Talk to each other with such disgust, just put down after insult.   If thats love I want no part of it.

    Lucky I learned Love isn't a fuzzy feelin you get. Or when your hot and bothered.  Love is an action. 

    For example Ennis getting Jack some soup.  Jack washin Ennis's clothes or tryin to attend to his head wound.  The little things as well as the big you do for others.  You can say I Love You a million times but if you don't do anything to show it.  Its just words.

     "Was just sendin up a prayer of thanks.."

[tpe]

     I don't know if there is such a thing as the perfect relationship.

     I mean how would you ever get to the hot make ups!

     Theres sometin to be said for a good fight every once in a while.  I think it can convey passion as well as get your point across. 

     Like Ennis I tend to hold things in to long then it comes out as anger. 

     "Them things i don't know...all them things I don't know."

A "perfect" relationship is one that is not perfect.  I know this sound paradoxical, but do you get what I mean here?

 

[tpe]

A perfect relationship is not about always agreeing with each other, and not having differences of opinions.

Yes, I think we are no the same page... 

[Ranchand1]

     I think so.

    Like the sweetest, pain.  The double edge sword.  Cant have it one way without the other.  Yin/Yang.  Good/Evil....someone stop me.

    Like ...the good times wouldn't be so good if you didn't have the bad times to compare em too.

   Maybe thats why God put us here.  In light of eternity we will have known the evil of going our own way.  Heaven is much sweeter knowing what hell was/is like.  That his way,  was best after all.   

   Just a thought.  thanks tpe...