Topic: Surreptitious Glances

[jackster]

. . . We see these glances as a kind of groping in the dark, and will to connect in spite of the contraints and fear of the unknown.  . . . .

Yes, Thomas, groping indeed.
It has occurred to me that these glances, as used here in this movie, are really quite inspired, as they are so familiar to so many of us in real life. Inasmuch that overt moves by men to elicit sexual interaction with other men is, or has been, forbidden by society, these surreptitious glances are one manner in which sexual interest has been manifest in the homosexual community for many years. How many times have we each experienced this, looking back, glancing around, catching another mans wandering eye? All very subtle indications of possible interest and attention. Yet, so subtle that the glance can be effectively “waved-off” as an innocent, unmeaning, accidental, eye contact if the recipient is not of a receptive mood or temperament.

How remarkably insightful for both Ang and Heath and Jake to pick up on this “language” and use it so very, very, subtly and yet so effectively in this film. If you weren’t gay, and hadn’t been the subject of this type of behavior, you might not even see or recognize these glances, certainly not most of them. They could have been played up and made into a big thing, which would of course only have ruined the entire effect. As it were, it is almost as if a secret language is being spoken, one that even the recipients maybe do not yet fully understand. Genius, especially given the orientation of these men.

[lancecowboy]

Yes, Thomas, groping indeed.
It has occurred to me that these glances, as used here in this movie, are really quite inspired, as they are so familiar to so many of us in real life. Inasmuch that overt moves by men to elicit sexual interaction with other men is, or has been, forbidden by society, these surreptitious glances are one manner in which sexual interest has been manifest in the homosexual community for many years. How many times have we each experienced this, looking back, glancing around, catching another mans wandering eye? All very subtle indications of possible interest and attention. Yet, so subtle that the glance can be effectively “waved-off” as an innocent, unmeaning, accidental, eye contact if the recipient is not of a receptive mood or temperament.

How remarkably insightful for both Ang and Heath and Jake to pick up on this “language” and use it so very, very, subtly and yet so effectively in this film. If you weren’t gay, and hadn’t been the subject of this type of behavior, you might not even see or recognize these glances, certainly not most of them. They could have been played up and made into a big thing, which would of course only have ruined the entire effect. As it were, it is almost as if a secret language is being spoken, one that even the recipients maybe do not yet fully understand. Genius, especially given the orientation of these men.

You know, I never understood this secret language. Now I know why I was so bad at playing this pickup games in gay bars, or anywhere.    I am about as subtle as a bull in a china shop. I love what you said here, Jackster, especially the last part...even the recipients maybe do not yet fully understand. Genius...

Yup. You bet.

[FlwrChild]

Well lc, you quoted the same parts that stood out for me. Great post, jackster.

[tpe]

Thanks friends.  And sorrt for my particular choice of words.    I am glad nonetheless that you consider this choice of words sufficiently apt.


I do understand  jackster's reference to the glances as a kind of language -- be it perhaps coded or instinctive.  Although I have expereinced it time and time again, lance's comment reminds me of a time when such language was not all too clear to me, and there were instances when I had misinterpreted them and perhaps went too far or too inadequate in my response.  It must have been interesting for Ennis, who probably used it instinctively.  Body language, after all, has its own natural syntax that can sometimes be understood without confusion or misrepresentation...
 

[lancecowboy]

Thanks friends.  And sorrt for my particular choice of words.    I am glad nonetheless that you consider this choice of words sufficiently apt.


I do understand  jackster's reference to the glances as a kind of language -- be it perhaps coded or instinctive.  Although I have expereinced it time and time again, lance's comment reminds me of a time when such language was not all too clear to me, and there were instances when I had misinterpreted them and perhaps went too far or too inadequate in my response.  It must have been interesting for Ennis, who probably used it instinctively.  Body language, after all, has its own natural syntax that can sometimes be understood without confusion or misrepresentation...

I think they call it Emotional Quotience. Good sales people and politicians have lots of it. Geeks and nerds have less. I am of the latter, and have never been good at body language. Jack is of the first, and caught on to Ennis' instinctive surreptitious glances. That's what gave him courage, to start something in FNIT! Thanks everyone, for the answer to one of my most puzzling questions about Jack.

[tpe]

I think they call it Emotional Quotience. Good sales people and politicians have lots of it. Geeks and nerds have less. I am of the latter, and have never been good at body language. Jack is of the first, and caught on to Ennis' instinctive surreptitious glances. That's what gave him courage, to start something in FNIT! Thanks everyone, for the answer to one of my most puzzling questions about Jack.

You are too modest, lance.  Above all, what is required is a degree of sensitivity that is not lacking in you.  So it is with these surreptitious glances -- whether or not Ennis or Jack ever saw the other eyeing him, it was clear that they were sensitive to the appearance of it.  They felt the interest of the other and reacted accordingly.  THis accounts for the deep internal communication between the two, that sometimes finds expression in a beautiful expressiveness of body language.

[lancecowboy]

You are too modest, lance.  Above all, what is required is a degree of sensitivity that is not lacking in you.  So it is with these surreptitious glances -- whether or not Ennis or Jack ever saw the other eyeing him, it was clear that they were sensitive to the appearance of it.  They felt the interest of the other and reacted accordingly.  THis accounts for the deep internal communication between the two, that sometimes finds expression in a beautiful expressiveness of body language.

This is wonderful, tpe. That's the destiny that is meant to be, the love that is a force of nature. Their surreptitious glances were the connections that clicked into place easily, leading from the simple handshake to the sharing of childhood in the bar to the sharing of friendship up the mountain to the confessions by the fireside, and finally Jack taking the leap in FNIT. The absence of love's destiny is seen in the surreptitious glances that go nowhere, leading to nothing, or worse, leading to painful rejections or homophobic reactions. This puts those glances from the beginning in a whole new light, from the moment the truck pulled up, and Jack stole glances from his mirror while Ennis peeked from under his hat. Wow, I think I will have to watch the movie again, and savor each glance.  Move on over, FlwrChild, Ranchand. I am joining your party of glances counting.

[jackster]

Move on over, FlwrChild, Ranchand. I am joining your party of glances counting.

OK folks, let’s get this rodeo a goin’ here,
First, seems you gotta’ ID the different types of “glances” we’re seein’.
Here’s a simple starter list:
1. One Way - Glance at the other guy when he doesn’t (or can’t) see it - e.g. in Auguirre’s trailer or a long distance look.
2. Two Way - When the other guy briefly does see it (catches) you glancing - e.g. Ennis watchin’ Jack on his buckin’ horse.
3. Two Way Return – A glance back at the other guy after you seen him checkin' you – e.g Jack lookin’ back at Ennis, same scene.
4. Buck Nekkid Stare - At the other guy when you know he’s looking at you and he’ll know you’re lookin’ at him - e.g. around the campfire.

Here's a One-Way:


A Two-Way and Return (showin' some Jake tongue too!)


A Buck Nekkid


Maybe some a’ these ain’t “surreptitious”? - if so, please feel free to correct or amend my start.
Got more?

[tpe]

This is wonderful, tpe. That's the destiny that is meant to be, the love that is a force of nature. Their surreptitious glances were the connections that clicked into place easily, leading from the simple handshake to the sharing of childhood in the bar to the sharing of friendship up the mountain to the confessions by the fireside, and finally Jack taking the leap in FNIT. The absence of love's destiny is seen in the surreptitious glances that go nowhere, leading to nothing, or worse, leading to painful rejections or homophobic reactions. This puts those glances from the beginning in a whole new light, from the moment the truck pulled up, and Jack stole glances from his mirror while Ennis peeked from under his hat. Wow, I think I will have to watch the movie again, and savor each glance.  Move on over, FlwrChild, Ranchand. I am joining your party of glances counting.

I find the "language" in the first few scenes enchanting -- and quite realistic.  It was as if even before the first words were uttered between them, they were already in communication.  And in the scene with Aguirre, the more I watch it, the more I feel that they really weren't paying attention to him, or at least their attention was peripheral.

[tpe]

OK folks, let’s get this rodeo a goin’ here,
First, seems you gotta’ ID the different types of “glances” we’re seein’.
Here’s a simple starter list:
1. One Way - Glance at the other guy when he doesn’t (or can’t) see it - e.g. in Auguirre’s trailer or a long distance look.
2. Two Way - When the other guy briefly does see it (catches) you glancing - e.g. Ennis watchin’ Jack on his buckin’ horse.
3. Two Way Return – A glance back at the other guy after you seen him checkin' you – e.g Jack lookin’ back at Ennis, same scene.
4. Buck Nekkid Stare - At the other guy when you know he’s looking at you and he’ll know you’re lookin’ at him - e.g. around the campfire.

Maybe some a’ these ain’t “surreptitious”? - if so, please feel free to correct or amend my start.
Got more?

Wonderful, Jackster.  I think in the discussion of the surreptitious ones, we can also discuss the the ones that were more "direct", shall we say -- if by way of contrast.  But I think ALL of the above has that element of surreptitiousness -- sometimes, there is a way of directly looking at someone without seeming to do more than just "looking".  Do you know what I mean?  I hope this point is not too arcane...

[lancecowboy]

I find the "language" in the first few scenes enchanting -- and quite realistic.  It was as if even before the first words were uttered between them, they were already in communication.  And in the scene with Aguirre, the more I watch it, the more I feel that they really weren't paying attention to him, or at least their attention was peripheral.

Like I said, I was blind as a bat, because when I watched those scenes, I was puzzled, and confused. I knew something was going on, but I didn't understand what. It was like watching a foreign movie, and hearing the foreign dialog, knowing something was said, catching a few words here and there, but never understanding totally.

Thank you, everyone, for your translation. You have no idea how all the discussion here, made a whole lot of sense of bits and pieces of my past. It's like a whole new movie.

[tpe]

Like I said, I was blind as a bat, because when I watched those scenes, I was puzzled, and confused. I knew something was going on, but I didn't understand what. It was like watching a foreign movie, and hearing the foreign dialog, knowing something was said, catching a few words here and there, but never understanding totally.

Thank you, everyone, for your translation. You have no idea how all the discussion here, made a whole lot of sense of bits and pieces of my past. It's like a whole new movie.

Thanks you also, lance.  Like you, my appreciation for what was happening behind those scenes was relatively belated.  But the beginning scenes were so subtly and artfully composed that one can "feel" it first before realizing it.

[FlwrChild]

Thanks you also, lance.  Like you, my appreciation for what was happening behind those scenes was relatively belated.  But the beginning scenes were so subtly and artfully composed that one can "feel" it first before realizing it.

Much like it was for them, tpe.

Wonderful, Jackster.  I think in the discussion of the surreptitious ones, we can also discuss the the ones that were more "direct", shall we say -- if by way of contrast.  But I think ALL of the above has that element of surreptitiousness -- sometimes, there is a way of directly looking at someone without seeming to do more than just "looking".  Do you know what I mean?  I hope this point is not too arcane...

Absolutely and you make the point well. There can be many hidden layers even to a look that seems very open and one dimensional.

I find the "language" in the first few scenes enchanting -- and quite realistic.  It was as if even before the first words were uttered between them, they were already in communication.  And in the scene with Aguirre, the more I watch it, the more I feel that they really weren't paying attention to him, or at least their attention was peripheral.

Once again, I like the way you put this.


And jackster, I love your list and the pictures.


Lc, I get a lot out of discussions like these too. So many ways to look at it all.

[tpe]

Much like it was for them, tpe.

Absolutely and you make the point well. There can be many hidden layers even to a look that seems very open and one dimensional.

Once again, I like the way you put this.

And jackster, I love your list and the pictures.

Lc, I get a lot out of discussions like these too. So many ways to look at it all.

Thanks FlwrChild!  There are indeed so many ways to look at all this, and yes, I too learn a lot from the discussions here -- almost 3 years after our first appreciation of these scenes...

[FlwrChild]

I wonder which scenes we'll be talking about 20 years from now.

[jackster]

I wonder which scenes we'll be talking about 20 years from now.

Don't know 'bout you, (but I can guess).

For me - all of 'em. You bet.

[lancecowboy]

I wonder which scenes we'll be talking about 20 years from now.

Don't know 'bout you, (but I can guess).

For me - all of 'em. You bet.

Yup. You bet is right.

[tpe]

I wonder which scenes we'll be talking about 20 years from now.

Don't know 'bout you, (but I can guess).

For me - all of 'em. You bet.

As epitomized by these glances, so much of what makes BBM great is the "less is more" quality.  Yes, I think there is enough richness here to last a lifetime. 

[orangetruck]

Don't know 'bout you, (but I can guess).

For me - all of 'em. You bet.

Yup. You bet is right.

As epitomized by these glances, so much of what makes BBM great is the "less is more" quality.  Yes, I think there is enough richness here to last a lifetime. 

Yep, me too. I got 5 on it.  

[aintfoolin]

 Excellent posts!

Even in the confrontation when Ennis got  directly in Jack's face about Mexico, he was jealous and angry, but the look still said "YOUR MINE"

[smartestsonia]

Excellent posts!

Even in the confrontation when Ennis got  directly in Jack's face about Mexico, he was jealous and angry, but the look still said "YOUR MINE"

so true..I really get goosebumps when I watch that look of Ennis..he really cant stand the thought of Jack going to Mexico...his anger has so much of love hidden..he cant share Jack with other men..what they share is very precious and not just physical..what they have is something special and Ennis cant let Jack get involved with someone else and in the bargain fear of losing what they have....its hard for both in that situation as circumstances have bought them this far

[tpe]

Thanks orangetruck, aintfoolin, and smartestsonia. 

I agree very much with what aintfoolin said.  In fact, there was an old thread here about what I thought was Ennis's possessiveness, and it is indeed impressive to see him jealous in the Last Confrontation.  Although this is not exactly a surreptitious glance, we know that there is a lot more hidden in Ennis's seething face when he confronts Jack about Mexico.

[smartestsonia]

exactly thomas , there is a deep meaning to that glance....it spoke volumes saying that Jack I will not bear the fact that u r going to another man..dont ruin what we share...I will not stand that..

[tpe]

exactly thomas , there is a deep meaning to that glance....it spoke volumes saying that Jack I will not bear the fact that u r going to another man..dont ruin what we share...I will not stand that..

I would even call it the anti-surreptitious galnce, in the sense that like the other glaces, this one attempts to hide all, but it is different precisely because in his attempt to hide all, this one reveals too much.

[smartestsonia]

I would even call it the anti-surreptitious galnce, in the sense that like the other glaces, this one attempts to hide all, but it is different precisely because in his attempt to hide all, this one reveals too much.

IMO Ennis dint wana hide this exactly..he wanted Jack to know that he was not okay..I mean 20 years of being together and sharing such a bond who would be okay about it..its dam obvious..infact it was needed...

I think this was the loudest glance and Ennis wanted it to be this loud...he had tried to be submissive in so many instances earlier ..although this time when he realized that Jack would be sharing something special what they have with another man it was definitely not acceptable to Ennis....

[tpe]

IMO Ennis dint wana hide this exactly..he wanted Jack to know that he was not okay..I mean 20 years of being together and sharing such a bond who would be okay about it..its dam obvious..infact it was needed...

I think this was the loudest glance and Ennis wanted it to be this loud...he had tried to be submissive in so many instances earlier ..although this time when he realized that Jack would be sharing something special what they have with another man it was definitely not acceptable to Ennis....

But you could tell that he was trying hard to restrain himself.  After having acted the stoic for too long, he felt discomfited.  He certainly wanted Jack to know that he wouldn't tolerate such unfaithfulness, but I think he tried his best to make it look like that he was still very much in control.

[smartestsonia]

But you could tell that he was trying hard to restrain himself.  After having acted the stoic for too long, he felt discomfited.  He certainly wanted Jack to know that he wouldn't tolerate such unfaithfulness, but I think he tried his best to make it look like that he was still very much in control.

I have noticed submissive people expressing in my life and trust me they speak through their eyes and tone..it may be the softest tone and calmest glance but it speaks alot..i think Ennis was dam loud even with those mild glances...IMO even for he was in control and submissive initially, the next moment he was like dam angry and wanted Jack to know that...eventually it all came out as he knew that Jack being with someone else and him losing all he has was tearing him apart...

[tpe]

By way of contrast to what you said, smartestsonia, I felt that Jack's surreptitious glances had an almost pleading quality to them.   Take for example the one he gave Ennis inside Aguirre's trailer.  It was almost like he was begging Ennis to look back...

 

[orangetruck]

By way of contrast to what you said, smartestsonia, I felt that Jack's surreptitious glances had an almost pleading quality to them.   Take for example the one he gave Ennis inside Aguirre's trailer.  It was almost like he was begging Ennis to look back...

 

This scene says so much to me by way of exactly where they're both coming from. Behind different personality gates, both boys were dealing with a foreign attachment from which they'd probably always been prematurely cut.

I get that it must have been a lot like school, perhaps a desolate round of detention where the 2 or 3 kids can't genuinely hide their attraction to the other's reason for being there. And then of course you have that other higher power that brought Ennis and Jack together from such a distance. I'll bet it was a job seeing one's reflection in the other cowboy.

Like one cowboy was the other's incomprehensible reason to be in that one trailer. Whether it be Aguirre's or Ennis' later. With the extent of art I can see Ennis and Jack struggling out of the black capacity of a small trailer, and their task wasn't to sleep on separate parts of the mountain; the chore was to let their love step outside and be.

Something strikes me about how they came down the stairs leading to their 'proper' introduction. "Jack Twist"

"Ennis"
Jack's persistence to know Ennis' full name vs Ennis content to look straight ahead - this could be a gauge of their own acknowledgments of the same absurd connection they had just made upstairs. 

[smartestsonia]

By way of contrast to what you said, smartestsonia, I felt that Jack's surreptitious glances had an almost pleading quality to them.   Take for example the one he gave Ennis inside Aguirre's trailer.  It was almost like he was begging Ennis to look back...

 

I completely agree Thomas with what u said about Jack's glance...its very true about Jack....With reference to my previous post on Ennis I felt that even though Ennis tried to be in control initially it became the most loudest and most painful glance as his true feelings overpowered everything else...that spoke volumes..it was a glance filled with hurt and anger..I think his heart reflected on his face at that moment when we see that glance...Jack was involved with others and that was so unacceptable to Ennis.....he loved Jack so very deeply and it was so pure...he held on to him for so long as it was genuine and nothing or no one could replace that for Ennis...he couldn't share Jack with anyone...whenever I even think about that glance Ennis gave Jack it gives me chills..I feel shattered by the thought that Ennis felt that his world was torn apart as he almost felt like he lost everything..so he wanted Jack to know what his love has done to him and how helpless he has become ...so eventually he said that he is nobody and nowhere :\'( :\'(