Author Topic: Does author of short story use proper English? Yes. The boardmembers?  (Read 22809 times)

Offline manila_rocks

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I noticed in the short story that the author says, for example,  "Ennis's dog went to town".

However, on the BBM board almost everyone says "Ennis' dog went to town"

Please help me understand the correct form to use when a regular man's name ends in "s".

dumbfounded in manila..



Offline manila_rocks

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I also have noted that the spellcheck software on this board always suggests using the 's.  Not unlike the author of the short story.


Offline rane99

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I also have noted that the spellcheck software on this board always suggests using the 's.  Not unlike the author of the short story.



'Ennis' dog went to to town' would be correct.
However, please know that books are not always correct.  One of my hobbies is to find typos is books. Doesn't happen that often, but that's part of the fun!
So's long as the bluebirds sing and there's a whiskey spring

Offline manila_rocks

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If what you say is correct, the author of the short story has riddled the entire thing with poor grammar.

I am shocked at annie.  If this is true.

Offline proulxfan

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If you check out Strunk and White's " The Elements of Style", a classic and condensed reference on issues like these, you will see that Ennis's dog is the correct way to do it. I believe Ennis' is used if Ennis is plural.
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline tpe

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As discussed by a number of my friends, it seems that the old rule is to use 's whenever there is a plural form ending with an s.

Example: The lovers' faces.

For the case of Ennis, the old rules indicate the following:

Example:  Ennis's face.

In current usage, I think "Ennis' face" is probably acceptable (and more common, I suspect).

Offline proulxfan

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Well, Annie and I are both older types, and we'll stick to our guns!
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline tpe

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Well, Annie and I are both older types, and we'll stick to our guns!

Grammatically speaking, you are in the right. :)

Offline dirtbiker

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Hmmm.. from my college English days, we were taught that if a singular noun has an "s" ending, and you want to indicate the possessive, one should drop the resulting extra "s" ending and  just the apostrophe.  But I have seen lay publications still using the 's after "s" endings....

Offline proulxfan

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I can go on and on about stuff like this as my minor in college was linguistics. It may actually be true that the rules are changing, and as a devotee of descriptive vs prescriptive grammars, I always felt that usage determined what was in fact grammatical; if people use it and understand what is said, then it is in fact grammatical-in spoken language. For whatever reason, when it comes to writing, I do a complete one-eighty, and it takes me a long time to write because I want to be clear. EB White was my model in this, and I tend to rely on him for judgment calls. I know this topic must be fascinating to all y'all out there, so I'll shut up now.  :)
« Last Edit: Feb 08, 2006, 02:15 PM by proulxfan »
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline backtobrokeback

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English teacher here. 

We have some serious exception-taking to the rules going on - but that's fairly typical of English, as well as a delightful schism between American and British forms, also fairly (and increasingly) common:

Nouns (not including names): Plural nouns that end in s (like “guys”) don’t add another s to form the possessive, e.g., the students’ lounge. “The students’ apartment” is the standard spelling. (Chicago Manual of Style, American English)

First names:  Chicago style adds an apostrophe and an s: James’s, Iris’s.  But please see CMS 7.17–23 for more examples and exceptions to the rule. 

At this point it devolves into: "Q. When indicating possession of a word that ends in s, is it correct to repeat the s after using an apostrophe? For example, which is correct: “Dickens’ novel” or “Dickens’s novel”?

A. Either is correct, though CMS 15 recommends the latter. Please consult 7.18–22 for a full discussion of the rules for forming the possessive of proper nouns, including exceptions and examples. For a simpler statement of the rule, see paragraph 5.26. For a discussion of the alternative practice of simply adding an apostrophe to form the possessive of proper nouns ending in s, see paragraph 7.23."

For my personal preference: Ennis's and Jack's families, Ennis and Jack's love for each other, Jack kissed Ennis on the Del Mars' back stairs, Jack rode Ennis's <horse>, etc.

If you care to read a British article (none the more helpful, full of contradictions and exceptions), but still very very funny http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/apostrophe.htm

:)

-backtobrokeback
He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands. Make the pledge! Go Back to Brokeback whenever, however you can. Join the BTB Project.

Offline proulxfan

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I wanna see "Jack rode Ennis's <horse>" included in a style manual. Trust me, it would be of enormous help memorizing the rules!! :D :D :D
roflmao
« Last Edit: Feb 08, 2006, 01:48 PM by proulxfan »
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline tpe

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English teacher here. 

We have some serious exception-taking to the rules going on - but that's fairly typical of English, as well as a delightful schism between American and British forms, also fairly (and increasingly) common:

Nouns (not including names): Plural nouns that end in s (like “guys”) don’t add another s to form the possessive, e.g., the students’ lounge. “The students’ apartment” is the standard spelling. (Chicago Manual of Style, American English)

First names:  Chicago style adds an apostrophe and an s: James’s, Iris’s.  But please see CMS 7.17–23 for more examples and exceptions to the rule. 

At this point it devolves into: "Q. When indicating possession of a word that ends in s, is it correct to repeat the s after using an apostrophe? For example, which is correct: “Dickens’ novel” or “Dickens’s novel”?

A. Either is correct, though CMS 15 recommends the latter. Please consult 7.18–22 for a full discussion of the rules for forming the possessive of proper nouns, including exceptions and examples. For a simpler statement of the rule, see paragraph 5.26. For a discussion of the alternative practice of simply adding an apostrophe to form the possessive of proper nouns ending in s, see paragraph 7.23."

For my personal preference: Ennis's and Jack's families, Ennis and Jack's love for each other, Jack kissed Ennis on the Del Mars' back stairs, Jack rode Ennis's <horse>, etc.

If you care to read a British article (none the more helpful, full of contradictions and exceptions), but still very very funny http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/apostrophe.htm

:)

-backtobrokeback

backtobrokeback, thank you!  :):):)

Offline backtobrokeback

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Meaningful discourse and motivation are two key elements of successful language acquisition.

For example:  "Jack's hand slid between Ennis's legs as their year's separation melted into memory, as Alma's and Lureen's smoldering resentments faded into the darkness, and their love's expression took shape in each other's caressing hands." 

See how much more sense the apostrophes make now?  See how much more you want to read that sentence?  Who says grammar is boring?

:)
He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands. Make the pledge! Go Back to Brokeback whenever, however you can. Join the BTB Project.

Offline proulxfan

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Now you write the kind of grammar book I can read again and again and again...!
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline tpe

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Meaningful discourse and motivation are two key elements of successful language acquisition.

For example:  "Jack's hand slid between Ennis's legs as their year's separation melted into memory, as Alma's and Lureen's smoldering resentments faded into the darkness, and their love's expression took shape in each other's caressing hands." 

See how much more sense the apostrophes make now?  See how much more you want to read that sentence?  Who says grammar is boring?

:)

Apostrophes?  What apostrophes?  Your example sentence is so distracting...  ;)

Offline dirtbiker

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Who would've thought that BBM would have spawned off a discussion on punctuation rules???  Hee hee  ::)

Offline *Froggy*

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Who would've thought that BBM would have spawned off a discussion on punctuation rules???  Hee hee  ::)

hahahaaha! Thankx for making me laugh..I needed this! ;)
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Offline CherryCake

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Meaningful discourse and motivation are two key elements of successful language acquisition.

For example:  "Jack's hand slid between Ennis's legs as their year's separation melted into memory, as Alma's and Lureen's smoldering resentments faded into the darkness, and their love's expression took shape in each other's caressing hands." 

See how much more sense the apostrophes make now?  See how much more you want to read that sentence?  Who says grammar is boring?
:)
 

Once again, I learned something from here! YEEEHAAAAW
« Last Edit: Feb 08, 2006, 06:44 PM by CherryCake »
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Offline hidesert

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If you check out Strunk and White's " The Elements of Style", a classic and condensed reference on issues like these, you will see that Ennis's dog is the correct way to do it. I believe Ennis' is used if Ennis is plural.

You are correct proulxfan, on page one of Strunk and White they use the example: Burns's poems.   

Names such as Burns, James, Ennis etc require an "'s" because they are singular names that end in "s".  Their names are not Burn, Jame or Enni.

"Elements of Style" - the friend of all writers.  I'm on my third copy.


 
« Last Edit: Feb 11, 2006, 12:08 PM by hidesert »

Offline *Froggy*

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Wow! thankx all.
Support bacteria, they are the only culture some people have!


If you press me to say why I loved him, I can say no more than because he was he, and I was I.
~ Michel Eyquem de Montaigne (1533-1592) ~ (Thankx to gimmejack)

Offline manila_rocks

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Bottom line.   Annie is a masterful writer and a queen of English grammar.

Annie rocks.

Offline proulxfan

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Amen, brother!!
Jack: " Nice to know you, Ennis Del Mar."

Offline Cowboy Cody

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I gave her short stories to a colleague the other day, he said, it's not correct, but it's the type of writing that keeps you creative and glued to the subject at hand.

Personally, I prefer Backtobrokeback's grammar lesson's. I mean, MAH GAWD, that made me sit up and take notice!
You were goin' up there to go fishin'....NO SHIT! GIMME SEX!

Offline backtobrokeback

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Could you clarify what's "not correct" - I mean, their 'country grammar', sure, but her apostrophe's?  I thought I explained that.  Please print my post or have your friend call me.

btb
He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands. Make the pledge! Go Back to Brokeback whenever, however you can. Join the BTB Project.

Offline Cowboy Cody

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He objected to the writing style as a way to teach writing and grammar. He's an english teacher, but IMHO, he's a little off kilter.

I certainly would trust your take, as I already do.
You were goin' up there to go fishin'....NO SHIT! GIMME SEX!

Offline backtobrokeback

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Good heavens! 

A) you can teach by bad example as well as by good, and there are both in there
B) you can teach how to do authentic dialect, as opposed to 'fake cowboy', and why the author's commitment to place matters
C) you can teach the effect of language on perception of a person (lower class, regional dialect, etc.)
D) I would not hesitate to use BBM for a lit class, creative writing class, what have you - the characterization, the plot threads, the imagery, I wouldn't know where NOT to use BBM.

Sorry, I'm fighting a different battle here at my college and I'm in tirade mode.  :-)

-btb
He pressed his face into the fabric and breathed in slowly through his mouth and nose, hoping for the faintest smoke and mountain sage and salty sweet stink of Jack but there was no real scent, only the memory of it, the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands. Make the pledge! Go Back to Brokeback whenever, however you can. Join the BTB Project.

Offline *Froggy*

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A) you can teach by bad example as well as by good, and there are both in there
B) you can teach how to do authentic dialect, as opposed to 'fake cowboy', and why the author's commitment to place matters
C) you can teach the effect of language on perception of a person (lower class, regional dialect, etc.)
D) I would not hesitate to use BBM for a lit class, creative writing class, what have you - the characterization, the plot threads, the imagery, I wouldn't know where NOT to use BBM.

I wanna be an English lit. teacher at uni too!!!

thankx btb!

x Froggy
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If you press me to say why I loved him, I can say no more than because he was he, and I was I.
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Offline Cowboy Cody

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Now my Bubba - he can write! His English is perfect, grammar, etc. He's got a true flair for it, myself, I'm more in tune to writing in historical style.

I'd love to teach at a uni someday!
You were goin' up there to go fishin'....NO SHIT! GIMME SEX!

Offline bram

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Okay, I think I've been using it right. I would say it was Ennis's horse, but I live in my parents' house. I don't always use proper grammar, but I like to think that I know how.
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