Topic: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"

[Tony]

    Dear Jackster - nah, I didn't start it, Aintfoolin did.  She used the "M" word, and now, all this quacking.  I would say, the concept of a license, a formal piece of paper, is relatively modern.  But also, the concept of romantic love within a marriage is also only about 800 years old (ref: Love in the Western World, Denise de Rougement).  Concepts of what a marriage is, then, seem to vary, so it's too soon to send postcards to friends.
   We can probably keep on getting those newer insights we keep trying for, (MG certainly did), but the only area I feel sure of is that some kind of hook-up occurred on the mountain that was not disolvable.  By that, I mean, if they had never met again, it was a sacred zone in their hearts, they would have carried with them.  The shirts didn't appear in Jack's closet after the reunion----they'd been there already for 4 years.  And Ennis' near nervous breakdown, waiting to see if Jack would show, spoke much about what he'd been carrying along deep inside.
  I'd settle for saying something had occurred which was not disolvable, and that was "sacred" to both of them.  So it wouldn't be a summer fling that later developed into a great love.  Paraphrasing AP, they went up the mountain one way, came down, another.  Altered completely.

[tpe]

"Marriage", "Marriage of the Heart", or a "Summer Thing",  maybe we are hung up on terms, I don't know.  Ennis called it "the thing",  they couldn't defined what it was they had, but fought to hold on to it, and to the point of fighting each other.   I think what they had is just beyond words.     JMO.

I personally feel that marriage isn't exactly the right word when it comes to describing the thing between Ennis and Jack.  Then again, I do tend to agree that a lot of it goes beyond words.  But "love" is probably the closest we can get -- commonplace it may seem to so many of us who hear the word abused and overused all the time.

[athena0204]

Athena - MG - Tony

Yeah, I think we're all sayin' the same thing.
Just depends on if you're using the legal, philosophical, or religious definition of marriage. What the boys had and felt went beyond all these I think. Tony got this started so he's gonna' have to finish it. 

Yeah, I tend to look at marriage in a philosophical way. For me, it's not something that's constituted in a ritual or on a piece of paper. How many people have gotten married when they didn't love each other? Way too many! For me, marriage has to be a marriage of the soul, and that's what Jack and Ennis had. When I think of the word marriage, I think of it's real meaning...a bond. And it's clear that where it really mattered, in their hearts and souls, Ennis and Jack were married to each other.

[aintfoolin]

Yeah, I tend to look at marriage in a philosophical way. For me, it's not something that's constituted in a ritual or on a piece of paper. How many people have gotten married when they didn't love each other? Way too many! For me, marriage has to be a marriage of the soul, and that's what Jack and Ennis had. When I think of the word marriage, I think of it's real meaning...a bond. And it's clear that where it really mattered, in their hearts and souls, Ennis and Jack were married to each other.

 I totally agree with this. I don't think anyone was really saying they were " married" in a traditional sense, standing before the man , promising to love honor and obeying( ..obeying?... somehow I don't like that)..but , there was that bond.

 They sensed either in a way long term married couples do.Wethered the storms of a relationship. Major pieces of their lives were wrapped up in this. An emotionall investment was made on the mountain, a  secret, but sarcred bond was created there between them. They may not have said it out loud , no eloquent speeches or shouting from the roof tops, but I feel they said I love you in many ways.

 Ennis was *committed to Jack by his love and  need for him, carried a *prescence* of Jack with him and that kept him faithful and not marry Cassie or anyone else. It is definitly a romantic notion of *marriage*, but there's  no license or legal papers , signed on the dotted line here. It's just hearfelt love and a  need to be a part of each other's  lives, if only in secret. It was them against the world.

 Ennis was changed by Jack and v/v. Take another look at Ennis's eyes in SNIT, if that's not need and wanting, I don't know what those words mean.  They are both vulnerable to love , Jack, putting himself out there as the leader, the example, the standard. Jack knows Ennis was realising something in those moments and he felt the same. He loved Jack though he coud'nt even speak it but so much is said with deeds or just a simple  gesture. Reversing the shirts, The Dozy embrace spoke volumes about his feelings for Jack, and Jack's gentle stroke of Ennis's cheek by the river are examples.  All things speak to a bonding that lasted beyond Brokeback Mt. Nah, they made not have had a peice of paper that says so, but there was a " marriage of the heart" , a meeting of the minds that lasted 20 yrs.

 Only death parted them. And even then , though Jack was gone, Ennis  finally stood up for him and their love. He'd defended Jack and their love once in Alma's kitchen ,and again in OMT's kitchen. MHO.

[babytammy7]

    Dear Jackster - nah, I didn't start it, Aintfoolin did.  She used the "M" word, and now, all this quacking.  I would say, the concept of a license, a formal piece of paper, is relatively modern.  But also, the concept of romantic love within a marriage is also only about 800 years old (ref: Love in the Western World, Denise de Rougement).  Concepts of what a marriage is, then, seem to vary, so it's too soon to send postcards to friends.
   We can probably keep on getting those newer insights we keep trying for, (MG certainly did), but the only area I feel sure of is that some kind of hook-up occurred on the mountain that was not disolvable.  By that, I mean, if they had never met again, it was a sacred zone in their hearts, they would have carried with them.  The shirts didn't appear in Jack's closet after the reunion----they'd been there already for 4 years.  And Ennis' near nervous breakdown, waiting to see if Jack would show, spoke much about what he'd been carrying along deep inside.
  I'd settle for saying something had occurred which was not disolvable, and that was "sacred" to both of them.  So it wouldn't be a summer fling that later developed into a great love.  Paraphrasing AP, they went up the mountain one way, came down, another.  Altered completely.

That's beautiful friend. Totally agree!!

I personally feel that marriage isn't exactly the right word when it comes to describing the thing between Ennis and Jack.  Then again, I do tend to agree that a lot of it goes beyond words.  But "love" is probably the closest we can get -- commonplace it may seem to so many of us who hear the word abused and overused all the time.

Yeah Thomas, now we meet someone and already we are in love with him/her; two months and we quit; next week we are sooooo in love with a another person. And so on. People say "I love you" all the time, without even know what that is.  To like is not love.

I totally agree with this. I don't think anyone was really saying they were " married" in a traditional sense, standing before the man , promising to love honor and obeying( ..obeying?... somehow I don't like that)..but , there was that bond.

 They sensed either in a way long term married couples do.Wethered the storms of a relationship. Major pieces of their lives were wrapped up in this. An emotionall investment was made on the mountain, a  secret, but sarcred bond was created there between them. They may not have said it out loud , no eloquent speeches or shouting from the roof tops, but I feel they said I love you in many ways.

 Ennis was *committed to Jack by his love and  need for him, carried a *prescence* of Jack with him and that kept him faithful and not marry Cassie or anyone else. It is definitly a romantic notion of *marriage*, but there's  no license or legal papers , signed on the dotted line here. It's just hearfelt love and a  need to be a part of each other's  lives, if only in secret. It was them against the world.

 Ennis was changed by Jack and v/v. Take another look at Ennis's eyes in SNIT, if that's not need and wanting, I don't know what those words mean.  They are both vulnerable to love , Jack, putting himself out there as the leader, the example, the standard. Jack knows Ennis was realising something in those moments and he felt the same. He loved Jack though he coud'nt even speak it but so much is said with deeds or just a simple  gesture. Reversing the shirts, The Dozy embrace spoke volumes about his feelings for Jack, and Jack's gentle stroke of Ennis's cheek by the river are examples.  All things speak to a bonding that lasted beyond Brokeback Mt. Nah, they made not have had a peice of paper that says so, but there was a " marriage of the heart" , a meeting of the minds that lasted 20 yrs.

 Only death parted them. And even then , though Jack was gone, Ennis  finally stood up for him and their love. He'd defended Jack and their love once in Alma's kitchen ,and again in OMT's kitchen. MHO.

I agree once again. This is gorgeous AF. And yeah, even with Jack dead they were not separated. Ennis had Jack EVERYDAY in his thoughts, in his heart and in his dreams.

[manhattangirl]

"You ain't found anyone else to marry?"  How do you think Jack sees marriage?  Asking this of man he would lay down with.  Do you think their idea, Jack and Ennis,  sees marriage in a totally different way then we speak of it.  Jack confides to Ennis that his marriage to Lureen could be phoned in.  What did he think, expect in a marriage, when his total being was devoted to Ennis, and Ennis couldn't get pass his need for Jack, to even function in any kind of relationship.   

I think neither understood how powerful their relationship was.  How it effected each of them, how it affected their relationship to those close to them.  Neither of them had a clue.  And sat back wondered why didn't marriage work for either of them. 

[jackster]

. . . I think neither understood how powerful their relationship was.  How it effected each of them, how it affected their relationship to those close to them.  Neither of them had a clue.  And sat back wondered why didn't marriage work for either of them. 

MHG I think you've illustrated a significant tenet of the tale here. Neither guy really understood the significance this male relationship had to each other (at this point). One reason we never hear the word "love" spoken between them. They didn't get it, or wouldn't (or couldn't) allow themselves to get it. One reason this discussion of marriage is so interesting to me. How did they see their marriages, vs this friendship? That's why I brought up the strict traditional American definition of marriage, it seems they both felt "marriage" was like gettin' the truck license. Something that was almost required by law, so you did it, maybe didn't want to, maybe didn't understand why, but everybody did it. Didn't question it. They had no models, no examples to guide them in their own relationship (with each other), so being country boys, they just went along with it, not really understanding it. Not knowing where it might lead. Jack had ideas but couldn't show Ennis how it'd work. Not until Ennis finds the shirts does either of them really understand the real depth and significance of their accidental meeting and the life they shared together. JMHO

[Matt Nasty]

MHG I think you've illustrated a significant tenet of the tale here. Neither guy really understood the significance this male relationship had to each other (at this point). One reason we never hear the word "love" spoken between them. They didn't get it, or wouldn't (or couldn't) allow themselves to get it. One reason this this discussion of marriage is so interesting to me. How did they see their marriages, vs this friendship? That's why I brought up the strict traditional American definition of marriage, it seems they both felt "marriage" was like gettin' the truck license. Something that was almost required by law, so you did it, maybe didn't want to, maybe didn't understand why, but everybody did it. Didn't question it. They had no models, no examples to guide them in their own relationship, so being country boys, they just went along with it, not really understanding it. Not knowing where it might lead. Jack had ideas but couldn't show Ennis how it'd work. Not until Ennis finds the shirts does either of them really understand the real depth and significance of their accidental meeting and the life they shared together. JMHO

great post it makes alot of sense

[manhattangirl]

MHG I think you've illustrated a significant tenet of the tale here. Neither guy really understood the significance this male relationship had to each other (at this point). One reason we never hear the word "love" spoken between them. They didn't get it, or wouldn't (or couldn't) allow themselves to get it. One reason this discussion of marriage is so interesting to me. How did they see their marriages, vs this friendship? That's why I brought up the strict traditional American definition of marriage, it seems they both felt "marriage" was like gettin' the truck license. Something that was almost required by law, so you did it, maybe didn't want to, maybe didn't understand why, but everybody did it. Didn't question it. They had no models, no examples to guide them in their own relationship, so being country boys, they just went along with it, not really understanding it. Not knowing where it might lead. Jack had ideas but couldn't show Ennis how it'd work. Not until Ennis finds the shirts does either of them really understand the real depth and significance of their accidental meeting and the life they shared together. JMHO

You see that's why I have such a hard time with reasons for Ennis to go ahead and marry Alma was it out of love.  No, I don't think so, It was that "I stick with beans" mentality which Ennis stubbornly held on to.   He brother marry, so did his sister, and at nineteen, on his own, busting out on his own was out of the question, you marry.    So Ennis in all his convention did what was expected.  Jack on the other hand was so opposite of Ennis in that respect.   My God, what must have been like to hear Jack talk, his attitude, his sense of humor, the way he'll look Ennis straight in the eyes.  How could Ennis resist this force in front of him, and the feelings that rose up in him for this man. 

Then Jack's question.  The concept of marriage, what did it really mean to them.  Thanks Jackster you understand where I'm coming from. 

[Tony]

That's why I brought up the strict traditional American definition of marriage, it seems they both felt "marriage" was like gettin' the truck license. Something that was almost required by law, so you did it, maybe didn't want to, maybe didn't understand why, but everybody did it. Didn't question it. They had no models, no examples to guide them in their own relationship (with each other), so being country boys, they just went along with it, not really understanding it. Not knowing where it might lead. Jack had ideas but couldn't show Ennis how it'd work. Not until Ennis finds the shirts does either of them really understand the real depth and significance of their accidental meeting and the life they shared together. JMHO

   
    This is at the core of the dilemma for our two boys.  We could put aside the issue of Ennis' fears of a homophobic culture, and there would STILL have been problems.  There's a set script for growing up, getting married, having kids, and dying.  Where is the manual for a collision of two souls, with a love that transcends gender and, yes, the standard model of "just enough love to get by"?
  This "thing" Ennis said came over them, seemed directly referring to their sexual entanglement, but he was to find that there was some unknown, unheard of, binding of each to the other, for which there was no license, and clearly, no manual to follow.  What county office would you go to, to register a meeting of two souls?  The core of this story is that they had found a love most of the world does not provide for, regardless of gender.
   Jackster has it right on. IMO, that they were stuck with an unknown.

[babytammy7]

"You ain't found anyone else to marry?"  How do you think Jack sees marriage?  Asking this of man he would lay down with.  Do you think their idea, Jack and Ennis,  sees marriage in a totally different way then we speak of it.  Jack confides to Ennis that his marriage to Lureen could be phoned in.  What did he think, expect in a marriage, when his total being was devoted to Ennis, and Ennis couldn't get pass his need for Jack, to even function in any kind of relationship.   

I think neither understood how powerful their relationship was.  How it effected each of them, how it affected their relationship to those close to them.  Neither of them had a clue.  And sat back wondered why didn't marriage work for either of them. 

MHG I think you've illustrated a significant tenet of the tale here. Neither guy really understood the significance this male relationship had to each other (at this point). One reason we never hear the word "love" spoken between them. They didn't get it, or wouldn't (or couldn't) allow themselves to get it. One reason this discussion of marriage is so interesting to me. How did they see their marriages, vs this friendship? That's why I brought up the strict traditional American definition of marriage, it seems they both felt "marriage" was like gettin' the truck license. Something that was almost required by law, so you did it, maybe didn't want to, maybe didn't understand why, but everybody did it. Didn't question it. They had no models, no examples to guide them in their own relationship (with each other), so being country boys, they just went along with it, not really understanding it. Not knowing where it might lead. Jack had ideas but couldn't show Ennis how it'd work. Not until Ennis finds the shirts does either of them really understand the real depth and significance of their accidental meeting and the life they shared together. JMHO

What county office would you go to, to register a meeting of two souls?  The core of this story is that they had found a love most of the world does not provide for, regardless of gender.   Jackster has it right on. IMO, that they were stuck with an unknown.

Gorgeous posts everyone!! I see what you're saying here and I totally agree!!

[lancecowboy]

Gorgeous posts everyone!! I see what you're saying here and I totally agree!!

   
    This is at the core of the dilemma for our two boys.  We could put aside the issue of Ennis' fears of a homophobic culture, and there would STILL have been problems.  There's a set script for growing up, getting married, having kids, and dying.  Where is the manual for a collision of two souls, with a love that transcends gender and, yes, the standard model of "just enough love to get by"?
  This "thing" Ennis said came over them, seemed directly referring to their sexual entanglement, but he was to find that there was some unknown, unheard of, binding of each to the other, for which there was no license, and clearly, no manual to follow.  What county office would you go to, to register a meeting of two souls?  The core of this story is that they had found a love most of the world does not provide for, regardless of gender.
   Jackster has it right on. IMO, that they were stuck with an unknown.

MHG I think you've illustrated a significant tenet of the tale here. Neither guy really understood the significance this male relationship had to each other (at this point). One reason we never hear the word "love" spoken between them. They didn't get it, or wouldn't (or couldn't) allow themselves to get it. One reason this discussion of marriage is so interesting to me. How did they see their marriages, vs this friendship? That's why I brought up the strict traditional American definition of marriage, it seems they both felt "marriage" was like gettin' the truck license. Something that was almost required by law, so you did it, maybe didn't want to, maybe didn't understand why, but everybody did it. Didn't question it. They had no models, no examples to guide them in their own relationship (with each other), so being country boys, they just went along with it, not really understanding it. Not knowing where it might lead. Jack had ideas but couldn't show Ennis how it'd work. Not until Ennis finds the shirts does either of them really understand the real depth and significance of their accidental meeting and the life they shared together. JMHO

wow, this is fantastic discussion. I finally understand the question, and the scene. I never could figure what's the big deal with it. Now I see it is at the heart of their relationship. Instead of the expected marriage, that time and space, they were faced with something different, something Jack jumped on and ready to ride off into their sweet cow and calf operation together, but something that Ennis did not know how to deal with.

I just found a song before reading this topic that makes me realize it is Ennis' way to not do anything half way.

Celine Dion's When I Fall in Love with You, describes what Ennis went through from the diner to find the two shirts:

When I fall in love
It will be forever
Or I'll never fall in love

In a restless world
Like this is
Love is ended before it's begun
And too many
Moonlight kisses
Seem to cool in the warmth of the sun

When I give my heart
I give it completely
Or I'll never give my heart

And the moment I can feel that you feel that way too
Is when I fall in love with you


That's the magic and sad moment in the closet in Lightning Flat.

Ennis could never marry anyone but Jack. He knew it deep down before that moment. He had an inkling of it in the diner with Cassie. He had no doubt of it when he hugged the two shirts, and smelled Jack, and felt Jack, and yearned for Jack.

The question is not:  "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"

The question ought to be: "All this time, you never once thought about us being married, and raising our own cows and calfs?"

[aintfoolin]

Gorgeous posts everyone!! I see what you're saying here and I totally agree!!

 I totally agree too, with all the great posts. It makes sense. they just sort of *drifted* into marriage, thinking they were *fixing* something. Rarely does it play out that way.  Both Jack and Ennis did'nt go out  of their way, looking for wives or even  each other., it kind of just happened by accident.. An opportunity for marriage to the women was an expectation of society, but they both took a huge leap considering their immature sense of what marriage means in a traditional sense.  So young at 19 yrs. old,They had not the time, or the inclination to find out.

By the time  they really understood  traditional marriage as society defines  it, they had responsibilities to wives and children. Neither really knew these women,  lived with them yes, had kids, but not really IMHO and  certainly they, (Alma, Lureen, nor Cassie,) definitly did'nt really know Jack and Ennis..  Had no idea. How could Jack or Ennis work it out with women in their lives when feelings for each other remain alive and well  within relationships with them?  And to what end?  Unspoken vows had already been taken. Nothing permanent was forthcoming here . No other person could touch this.

Jack nor Ennis  had need not  expect a  fresh, composed,  traditional marriage because their hearts already belonged to some one else.  They'd already lived  those moments. So they drifted until they'd both had enough of  *playing house* and  drifted apart. Society decided  whom they should marry gender-wise, Man marries woman, have children, and create some kind of life together till death do them part, and they yeilded somewhat to the expectations, but love knows no gender . It is an entity of feeling,  two hearts bonded together, no license required. so there they were.  I agreed with Jack when he said " you and Alma, that's a life? Jack knew it was merely an existence, not a fullfilling life not unlike his own . Ennis admits he is stuck with what he got. Before it was all said and done,  Alma  found some dignity and filed for divorce from Ennis and Jack was phoning his marriage with Lureen  in like MG said.  Both found themselves stuck in traps of their own making, they were  only digging their holes deeper. once he got out,  Ennis chose not to repeat the same mistake twice.

These two marriages dissolved because Jack and Ennis were already in love with each other, bonded in mind, body and soul to each other on Brokeback Mt.. Unconditional freindship that evolved into an  expressed  same-sex love. Neither could conceive of loving some one else this way.  Jack did'nt think that Ennis knew "how bad it gets" , I think he did, he would know, cuz he was the one in constant  battle with it, and it was winning.  might not have been  dealing in the  exact same way Jack was dealing with this *thing*, but a seperate set of circumcumstances stood before Ennis. Both trying to figure out this *thing* (called love)  in their own way, they  both found it worthy of continuance ,  and it was equal in it's power over both of them. So what's missing? I think it's a mature verbal acknowlegment , communication , and compromise. They both tried to conform and *blend in* seperatly  but it would'nt  play,  happiness depended on having the other near,  Who could resist that? Any one can get a license and call themselves *married*, but without the dedicated heart, it is for nil. In spite of it all, this one lasted. MHO.

[jackster]

. . . .  Where is the manual for a collision of two souls, with a love that transcends gender and, yes, the standard model of "just enough love to get by"? . . .

Could be Tony that we we've all been reading and watching an introductory chapter in this manual. One of the reasons we're all so drawn to this tale, it's showing us, making real for us, issues and directions that haven't been clarified before. Thank you, Annie, Ang, Heath. Thank you, ennisjack.com.

[babytammy7]

I totally agree too, with all the great posts. It makes sense. they just sort of *drifted* into marriage, thinking they were *fixing* something. Rarely does it play out that way.  Both Jack and Ennis did'nt go out  of their way, looking for wives or even  each other., it kind of just happened by accident.. An opportunity for marriage to the women was an expectation of society, but they both took a huge leap considering their immature sense of what marriage means in a traditional sense.  So young at 19 yrs. old,They had not the time, or the inclination to find out.

By the time  they really understood  traditional marriage as society defines  it, they had responsibilities to wives and children. Neither really knew these women,  lived with them yes, had kids, but not really IMHO and  certainly they, (Alma, Lureen, nor Cassie,) definitly did'nt really know Jack and Ennis..  Had no idea. How could Jack or Ennis work it out with women in their lives when feelings for each other remain alive and well  within relationships with them?  And to what end?  Unspoken vows had already been taken. Nothing permanent was forthcoming here . No other person could touch this.

Jack nor Ennis  had need not  expect a  fresh, composed,  traditional marriage because their hearts already belonged to some one else.  They'd already lived  those moments. So they drifted until they'd both had enough of  *playing house* and  drifted apart. Society decided  whom they should marry gender-wise, Man marries woman, have children, and create some kind of life together till death do them part, and they yeilded somewhat to the expectations, but love knows no gender . It is an entity of feeling,  two hearts bonded together, no license required. so there they were. I agreed with Jack when he said " you and Alma, that's a life? Jack knew it was merely an existence, not a fullfilling life not unlike his own . Ennis admits he is stuck with what he got. Before it was all said and done,  Alma  found some dignity and filed for divorce from Ennis and Jack was phoning his marriage with Lureen  in like MG said.  Both found themselves stuck in traps of their own making, they were  only digging their holes deeper. once he got out,  Ennis chose not to repeat the same mistake twice.

These two marriages dissolved because Jack and Ennis were already in love with each other, bonded in mind, body and soul to each other on Brokeback Mt.. Unconditional freindship that evolved into an  expressed  same-sex love. Neither could conceive of loving some one else this way.  Jack did'nt think that Ennis knew "how bad it gets" , I think he did, he would know, cuz he was the one in constant  battle with it, and it was winning.  might not have been  dealing in the  exact same way Jack was dealing with this *thing*, but a seperate set of circumcumstances stood before Ennis. Both trying to figure out this *thing* (called love)  in their own way, they  both found it worthy of continuance ,  and it was equal in it's power over both of them. So what's missing? I think it's a mature verbal acknowlegment , communication , and compromise. They both tried to conform and *blend in* seperatly  but it would'nt  play,  happiness depended on having the other near,  Who could resist that? Any one can get a license and call themselves *married*, but without the dedicated heart, it is for nil. In spite of it all, this one lasted. MHO.

Oh WOW, AF!!! This is so so so well said!!! I love it.

[tpe]

"You ain't found anyone else to marry?"  How do you think Jack sees marriage?  Asking this of man he would lay down with.  Do you think their idea, Jack and Ennis,  sees marriage in a totally different way then we speak of it.  Jack confides to Ennis that his marriage to Lureen could be phoned in.  What did he think, expect in a marriage, when his total being was devoted to Ennis, and Ennis couldn't get pass his need for Jack, to even function in any kind of relationship.   

I think neither understood how powerful their relationship was.  How it effected each of them, how it affected their relationship to those close to them.  Neither of them had a clue.  And sat back wondered why didn't marriage work for either of them. 

I think that Jack's marriage to Lureen was a step taken by Jack in order to forget Ennis and move on.  It would seem that for Ennis and Jack, marriage was in the natural order of things, and that perhaps their affection for each other was just something that they could outgrow.  I think that Jack early on though that marriage was the reality and that his love for Ennis was more like a dream, a fluke.  Only later on did Jack (I think) take the pragmatic approach to marriage as a screen that would protect him and Ennis from suspicion. The latter is what I suspect both Ennis and Jack had in mind in the case of Cassie.

[tpe]

The question is not:  "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"

The question ought to be: "All this time, you never once thought about us being married, and raising our own cows and calfs?"

Wonderful insight here, lance!

[Matt Nasty]

Wonderful insight here, lance!

i agree with this lances post was beautiful

[aintfoolin]

i agree with this lances post was beautiful

 I agree Lance is right. It's about them and no one else. Jack is seeking validation from Ennis concerning their relationship after so much time.  Ennis has not married because of his love for Jack, Jack is tired of holding on to a half-life  in Texas, and loves Ennis , and always have.  How long must he wait?  "What about US?", god, after all this time, why could'nt they communicate better? Straight up, without the innuendo, and guessing games?  though Jack was calm telling Ennis he "can't hardly stand it" ,I could feel his frustration here.  and Man, I loved Ennis dearly , he had his reasons,  but the silence.. what in the world...?  they were'nt  19 anymore and Jack was'nt looking for  eloquent speeches or romantic declarations from Ennis,  Just that  I feel Ennis owed Jack answers, after 20 yrs., really...  I'm just sayin... Sorry, it's not the first time I've wanted to bash Ennis over the head and wake him up in the film, instead of telling Jack through his actions to *dream on*.  Jack could'nt have made it any clearer imo without coming straight out with it like Lance said. Am I wrong here?... Vent over. Thanx.

[manhattangirl]

 I agree Lance is right. It's about them and no one else. Jack is seeking validation from Ennis concerning their relationship after so much time.  Ennis has not married because of his love for Jack, Jack is tired of holding on to a half-life  in Texas, and loves Ennis , and always have.  How long must he wait?  "What about US?", god, after all this time, why could'nt they communicate better? Straight up, without the innuendo, and guessing games?  though Jack was calm telling Ennis he "can't hardly stand it" ,I could feel his frustration here.  and Man, I loved Ennis dearly , he had his reasons,  but the silence.. what in the world...?  they were'nt  19 anymore and Jack was'nt looking for  eloquent speeches or romantic declarations from Ennis,  Just that  I feel Ennis owed Jack answers, after 20 yrs., really...  I'm just sayin... Sorry, it's not the first time I've wanted to bash Ennis over the head and wake him up in the film, instead of telling Jack through his actions to *dream on*.  Jack could'nt have made it any clearer imo without coming straight out with it like Lance said. Am I wrong here?... Vent over. Thanx.

Oh please keep venting, this is the big question.  After all those years, don't you think you can be up front with your lover and "Hey, what's up with us ?" .   Jack had to get really fed up with Ennis.  The next morning was when he did.   Which moment would have been better, the night before, or the next morning when Jack was in a foul mood, and Ennis pushing the date back. 

[lancecowboy]

 I agree Lance is right. It's about them and no one else. Jack is seeking validation from Ennis concerning their relationship after so much time.  Ennis has not married because of his love for Jack, Jack is tired of holding on to a half-life  in Texas, and loves Ennis , and always have.  How long must he wait?  "What about US?", god, after all this time, why could'nt they communicate better? Straight up, without the innuendo, and guessing games?  though Jack was calm telling Ennis he "can't hardly stand it" ,I could feel his frustration here.  and Man, I loved Ennis dearly , he had his reasons,  but the silence.. what in the world...?  they were'nt  19 anymore and Jack was'nt looking for  eloquent speeches or romantic declarations from Ennis,  Just that  I feel Ennis owed Jack answers, after 20 yrs., really...  I'm just sayin... Sorry, it's not the first time I've wanted to bash Ennis over the head and wake him up in the film, instead of telling Jack through his actions to *dream on*.  Jack could'nt have made it any clearer imo without coming straight out with it like Lance said. Am I wrong here?... Vent over. Thanx.

thanks, everyone, you all are always too kind to me.

I think manhattengirl said once that the most consistent characteristics between Ennis and Jack had been their inability to communicate verbal how they could communicate non-verbally. They can feel each other and the love they share, yet they cannot verbalize those feelings nor to communicate what to do with them. The only time that it came close was their reunion by the river with the fireside scene. But the tale of Earl and Rich put a damper on it, and it never opened up again.

Vent away, aintfooling...I am with you 100%.

[tpe]

thanks, everyone, you all are always too kind to me. [IMG]
I think manhattengirl said once that the most consistent characteristics between Ennis and Jack had been their inability to communicate verbal how they could communicate non-verbally. They can feel each other and the love they share, yet they cannot verbalize those feelings nor to communicate what to do with them. The only time that it came close was their reunion by the river with the fireside scene. But the tale of Earl and Rich put a damper on it, and it never opened up again.

Which was what made the "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry" scene all the more interrsting, because you feel that there was a lot of stuff happening underneath the seemingly casual conversation.  The only time we get an explicit glimpse of everything that lay underneath was when Jack finally says "Sometimes, I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  After this was silence.  In many ways, no words needed to be exchanged after that.

[babytammy7]

Oh please keep venting, this is the big question.  After all those years, don't you think you can be up front with your lover and "Hey, what's up with us ?" .   Jack had to get really fed up with Ennis.  The next morning was when he did.   Which moment would have been better, the night before, or the next morning when Jack was in a foul mood, and Ennis pushing the date back. 

Love your post AF.  A question here. Reading MG post I just thought about Jack the next morning. He was in a foul mood, but why? Because they had to part? Or because Ennis said NOTHING when he confessed that he missed Ennis so bad that he hardly can stand it?

[aintfoolin]

Love your post AF.  A question here. Reading MG post I just thought about Jack the next morning. He was in a foul mood, but why? Because they had to part? Or because Ennis said NOTHING when he confessed that he missed Ennis so bad that he hardly can stand it?

  Thanx Lance MG, BT, and Tpe, Would'nt change a thing in this classic work of art  Brokeback Mountain, things were as they were. but...sometimes ....

 BabyT,

 I think Jack was in a foul mood  because he was being asked to just stand it some more. Again  he feels his case was laid out , he can "hardly stand it." and his his needs have fallen on seemingly deaf ears. His hope, once again dashed.  Another long  lonely drive back to Texas , having accepted the status quo from the one he loves and needs. Not just sometime here and there , but all the time. No more time left to make his case and  time was of the essence. Again, he will visit his parents and head on back to a half-life that he can no longer tolerate in Texas. Misunderstood and treated like crap. And all for what? A man he loves with all his heart, but a man who can't really see him, hear him, feels what he feels the way he needs him to . ...but he loves him , no doubt.  He feels a tug on the short leash. ...Or maybe he's just not a morning person, in any case he's ready for a change.

 Once again, they have to part. Ennis does't make it any better by his silence, though that's when Ennis is trying to find away to tell Jack that Aug is kaput and Jack has to wait till Nov. to see em. Just a little tidbit of vital info that he's withheld  from Jack until Jack is ready to leave. of course he's done the latter in order to avoid , at the begginning of the trip, what he's dealing with now. Now Ennis has to deal with a Jack who's already in a foul mood, his ire has been raised  by not being told earlier, he's now  pissed off, and now feeling  somewhat manipulated by Ennis. He feels very unappreciated ( an understatement).  It's only part of the big picture though, where Jack feels his dreams of a ranch with Ennis slipping away. I say  Ennis has a way of magnifying Jack's frustration at the wrong moments creating his own minefields, again I adored Ennis ,and by god, he had his reasons and my heart went out for him but  Jack may have had the patience of Job. But when he got mad, well,... let's just say Ennis was not ready for this Jack. He had a temper. Sorry MO.

[tpe]

Love your post AF.  A question here. Reading MG post I just thought about Jack the next morning. He was in a foul mood, but why? Because they had to part? Or because Ennis said NOTHING when he confessed that he missed Ennis so bad that he hardly can stand it?

I suspect it was more of the former -- but I certainly can't discount the latter.  The scene from the night before exposed Jack's vulnerability.  But somehow, I feel that Jack felt that Ennis also felt the same way, even if he said nothing.

Jack was the one who instigated the discussion of marrying the night before.  It is curious that what started as a probing inquiry on Ennis ends with a vulnerable confession.  This is typical of Jack, who leaves his heart exposed.

[babytammy7]

  Thanx Lance MG, BT, and Tpe, Would'nt change a thing in this classic work of art  Brokeback Mountain, things were as they were. but...sometimes ....

 BabyT,

 I think Jack was in a foul mood  because he was being asked to just stand it some more. Again  he feels his case was laid out , he can "hardly stand it." and his his needs have fallen on seemingly deaf ears. His hope, once again dashed.  Another long  lonely drive back to Texas , having accepted the status quo from the one he loves and needs. Not just sometime here and there , but all the time. No more time left to make his case and  time was of the essence. Again, he will visit his parents and head on back to a half-life that he can no longer tolerate in Texas. Misunderstood and treated like crap. And all for what? A man he loves with all his heart, but a man who can't really see him, hear him, feels what he feels the way he needs him to . ...but he loves him , no doubt.  He feels a tug on the short leash. ...Or maybe he's just not a morning person, in any case he's ready for a change.

 Once again, they have to part. Ennis does't make it any better by his silence, though that's when Ennis is trying to find away to tell Jack that Aug is kaput and Jack has to wait till Nov. to see em. Just a little tidbit of vital info that he's withheld  from Jack until Jack is ready to leave. of course he's done the latter in order to avoid , at the begginning of the trip, what he's dealing with now. Now Ennis has to deal with a Jack who's already in a foul mood, his ire has been raised  by not being told earlier, he's now  pissed off, and now feeling  somewhat manipulated by Ennis. He feels very unappreciated ( an understatement).  It's only part of the big picture though, where Jack feels his dreams of a ranch with Ennis slipping away. I say  Ennis has a way of magnifying Jack's frustration at the wrong moments creating his own minefields, again I adored Ennis ,and by god, he had his reasons and my heart went out for him but  Jack may have had the patience of Job. But when he got mad, well,... let's just say Ennis was not ready for this Jack. He had a temper. Sorry MO.

Totally agree again, AF.  You really know our boys so well. This is a very heartbreaking post but I know it's the truth, so I have to stand it because I can't fix it. But still, Jack's feelings there make me feel all weak and broken. Poor baby.  :\'( :\'( :\'( Can you believe that after my second view of BBM I knew the whole dialogue of the confrontation scene by heart? It was a big stunning impact for me, and my friends at work used to ask me to perform the whole thing for them, because they loved it. But I always said no...because that made me cry. Oooppss, sorry, big OT here. BTW call me Tammy. 

I suspect it was more of the former -- but I certainly can't discount the latter.  The scene from the night before exposed Jack's vulnerability.  But somehow, I feel that Jack felt that Ennis also felt the same way, even if he said nothing.

Jack was the one who instigated the discussion of marrying the night before.  It is curious that what started as a probing inquiry on Ennis ends with a vulnerable confession.  This is typical of Jack, who leaves his heart exposed.

Beautifully said Thomas. Yeah, that was Jack.

[myprivatejack]

Love your post AF.  A question here. Reading MG post I just thought about Jack the next morning. He was in a foul mood, but why? Because they had to part? Or because Ennis said NOTHING when he confessed that he missed Ennis so bad that he hardly can stand it?

I suspect it was more of the former -- but I certainly can't discount the latter.  The scene from the night
before exposed Jack's vulnerability.  But somehow, I feel that Jack felt that Ennis also felt the same way, even if he said nothing.

Jack was the one who instigated the discussion of marrying the night before.  It is curious that what started as a probing inquiry on Ennis ends with a vulnerable confession.  This is typical of Jack, who leaves his heart exposed.

I tend to think that there was a mess of confronted feelings inside Jack the morning they had to leave:one more time,they had to be apart,but one more time moreover,without having a clear and direct answer to his wishes.Even more and worse this time,because he had been very clear in showing the feelings he had for Ennis,perhaps Jack' s first and only time when he really declares his love-even if he had showed it in many ways many times before,never in oral way...-.
And he had been so clear after a question I agree with some Brokies who has remarked before that carries an implicit reference to their relationship and its future.As a matter of fact,the more I read your posts,the clearer I see this...Jack-the same than Ennis somehow-knows very well that his lover can't be ever happy with a woman,and he's at ease in this sense.But he also knows that he had too many fears,that can be "calmed" with the socially well seen presence of a wife in his life,that's for sure,and he feels anxious in this other sense.He knows that if Ennis gets married,it would be more difficult for him to get what he wishes,not everybody is Alma...And he knows also that they have arrived to a point when they need to resolve their future together,they can' t be lovers for the eternity;so,in their never clear enough way of communicating between them,he tries to estimate Ennis reaction to see what he can hope from him.I think is for this reason that this enquire on Ennis ends with Jack's confession;for him,one thing and another goes together...And yes,Thomas,Jack always leaves his heart exposed,it' s true;but IMO never enough as to be able to be as friends as goods as lovers,never with enough trust.I don' t know if this makes sense.

[aintfoolin]

I suspect it was more of the former -- but I certainly can't discount the latter.  The scene from the night before exposed Jack's vulnerability.  But somehow, I feel that Jack felt that Ennis also felt the same way, even if he said nothing.

Jack was the one who instigated the discussion of marrying the night before.  It is curious that what started as a probing inquiry on Ennis ends with a vulnerable confession.  This is typical of Jack, who leaves his heart exposed.

 Yes, all you say is true, but don't you think that Jack was trying to boil it all down for Ennis? make it plain without just coming right out with it. Seeking some verbal response from Ennis that he is reason #1 why Ennis has not re-married? The whole confession starts out " Tell you what, truth is, sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it", narrowing it back down to him and Ennis.  in response to learning about Cassie, and admitting his own affair with some ranch foreman's wife ( I assume LaShawn, but somehow I can't see that, more likely Randall himself.), but anyway, Jack was saying despite all that, It was Ennis he really needed? Underneath that calm exterior, It's as if  Jack reckons he has to say" It's  Jack , your friend and lover of 20 yrs. and I'm still waiting.
  Was Jack not  enough to the point? All Ennis had to do was read between the lines just a little?  Jack was sayin * what about me? us? .  And can it be tied in with the next mornings goings on? Be the reason why Jack looked so weary and in a foul mood to begin with. Or was Ennis too pre-occupied with knowing this will be the last time for a while with Jack, and just wanted to prolong the peace as long as he could? your right , Jack was putting his vulnerabilty out there along with his heart.  As you say,  so much more was going here beneath the surface talk for sure.

[tpe]

Beautifully said Thomas. Yeah, that was Jack.

Thanks Tammy. 

I tend to think that there was a mess of confronted feelings inside Jack the morning they had to leave:one more time,they had to be apart,but one more time moreover,without having a clear and direct answer to his wishes.Even more and worse this time,because he had been very clear in showing the feelings he had for Ennis,perhaps Jack' s first and only time when he really declares his love-even if he had showed it in many ways many times before,never in oral way...-.
And he had been so clear after a question I agree with some Brokies who has remarked before that carries an implicit reference to their relationship and its future.As a matter of fact,the more I read your posts,the clearer I see this...Jack-the same than Ennis somehow-knows very well that his lover can't be ever happy with a woman,and he's at ease in this sense.But he also knows that he had too many fears,that can be "calmed" with the socially well seen presence of a wife in his life,that's for sure,and he feels anxious in this other sense.He knows that if Ennis gets married,it would be more difficult for him to get what he wishes,not everybody is Alma...And he knows also that they have arrived to a point when they need to resolve their future together,they can' t be lovers for the eternity;so,in their never clear enough way of communicating between them,he tries to estimate Ennis reaction to see what he can hope from him.I think is for this reason that this enquire on Ennis ends with Jack's confession;for him,one thing and another goes together...And yes,Thomas,Jack always leaves his heart exposed,it' s true;but IMO never enough as to be able to be as friends as goods as lovers,never with enough trust.I don' t know if this makes sense.

Beautiful deduction.    I underline the part that I find very insightful.

[tpe]

Yes, all you say is true, but don't you think that Jack was trying to boil it all down for Ennis? make it plain without just coming right out with it. Seeking some verbal response from Ennis that he is reason #1 why Ennis has not re-married? The whole confession starts out " Tell you what, truth is, sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it", narrowing it back down to him and Ennis.  in response to learning about Cassie, and admitting his own affair with some ranch foreman's wife ( I assume LaShawn, but somehow I can't see that, more likely Randall himself.), but anyway, Jack was saying despite all that, It was Ennis he really needed? Underneath that calm exterior, It's as if  Jack reckons he has to say" It's  Jack , your friend and lover of 20 yrs. and I'm still waiting.
  Was Jack not  enough to the point? All Ennis had to do was read between the lines just a little?  Jack was sayin * what about me? us? .  And can it be tied in with the next mornings goings on? Be the reason why Jack looked so weary and in a foul mood to begin with. Or was Ennis too pre-occupied with knowing this will be the last time for a while with Jack, and just wanted to prolong the peace as long as he could? your right , Jack was putting his vulnerabilty out there along with his heart.  As you say,  so much more was going here beneath the surface talk for sure.

I think Jack at that post was trying to cut through all the obfuscation -- all the conventions that have come to dominate their meetings and their relationship.  So many things have been left unsaid, over the years, and this was Jack's first attempt to address this head-on.  His confession is a way of telling Ennis that for all their tiptoeing around each other, there is something that cannot be denied: that he loves him.