Topic: When did they start to fall in love?

[welshwitch]

It's true too that onlookers often see people falling in love when the two involved aren't yet aware of it. We see Jack falling in love though I don't know whan he realises himself that's what it is; Ennis however much he may sense the truth never admits it to himself till Jack is dead. But long before they leave the mountain they have found each other.

[tpe]

I do suspect that the attraction between the two of them was immediate.  The glances they exchanged in Aguirre's trailer is most telling.  But when did attraction first blossom into love?  It is a wonderful question worth exploring. 

[welshwitch]

I have a feeling that there is often a strong physical atraction between two people long before they love each other - in fact the physical thing may even subside before it becomes obvious that it's mutated into love, which is lasting and less violent than physical desire. Physical closeness can remain a part of it - it does with Jack and Ennis - but once more lasting emotions are involved involvement and commitment grow.

[lachlan]

I think that Annie Proulx tried to settle this issue, at least in regard to Ennis, in the short story on their night in the Motel Siesta. Ennis makes it pretty clear that he hadn't realised how attached he was to Jack until some time after they parted company in Signal; then it was too late to resume the relationship. In her discussion about the transformation from story to screenplay, Proulx stresses that her original intention was to use that scene as central to the entire narrative, thus dispelling many of the primary ambiguities. According to her, it was Ang Lee who shifted much of the dialogue and the revelations to a later point in the plot. I'd love to see how the screenplay read up until Lee made that shift. There must be copies around as it was at least six years in circulation before Ang Lee took it on.

[manhattangirl]

I have a feeling that there is often a strong physical atraction between two people long before they love each other - in fact the physical thing may even subside before it becomes obvious that it's mutated into love, which is lasting and less violent than physical desire. Physical closeness can remain a part of it - it does with Jack and Ennis - but once more lasting emotions are involved involvement and commitment grow.

Remember when Jack confessed to Ennis "I miss you so much sometimes,  I can hardly stand it".  Its physical and indeed emotional.   

[tpe]

I think that Annie Proulx tried to settle this issue, at least in regard to Ennis, in the short story on their night in the Motel Siesta. Ennis makes it pretty clear that he hadn't realised how attached he was to Jack until some time after they parted company in Signal; then it was too late to resume the relationship. In her discussion about the transformation from story to screenplay, Proulx stresses that her original intention was to use that scene as central to the entire narrative, thus dispelling many of the primary ambiguities. According to her, it was Ang Lee who shifted much of the dialogue and the revelations to a later point in the plot. I'd love to see how the screenplay read up until Lee made that shift. There must be copies around as it was at least six years in circulation before Ang Lee took it on.

Hello lachlan.  I would agree that one could interpret the reunion as the exact point where we can definitively say that Ennis and Jack realized that they were in love.  Not to discount earlier possibilities, but I do think that the reunion signalled a realization in both Ennis and Jack that they could not set themselves apart forever.

OT: Proulx has of course mentioned that she fought the change where part of the Motel dialog was shifted later to the scene up in the mountains ("You know it could be like this...")  But in her essay that accompanies the screenplay, she did finally admit that the shifted dialog did work cinematically.  The shift was not very great, but I think it did work.

[aintfoolin]

 The FNIT, SNIT, The reunion scene ,and the Dozy embrace stand out as scenes of acceptance of one or the other's feelings of unmistakable love...and the willingness to act on it no doubt. In other scenes  we see the struggle to sustain it.I feel the attraction was there from the beginning, but by SNIT in tent I think they both realized they were in love , the eyes spoke volumes no question about it imo.

[manhattangirl]

For me:

The FNIT, was Ennis's  sexual awakening.  Ennis felt it when Jack took his hand, Ennis didn't think, but acted instinctively.  Ennis took Jack  naturally, without instruction.   Jack submitted to him.  But did they understand this was how it was going to be from now on?   And up until this point, did Ennis understand this over whelming urge and did he ever feel this for Alma?

The  SNIT, Jack guided Ennis,  Jack showed Ennis in the ways of making love,  the first kiss, arkward, gentle, Jack's assurances that its all right.  Ennis totally giving into Jack's body, touching him, smelling him, feeling him.   And most importantly the trust they had to have for each other in taking such a step as this.  This was intimacy.  There was no turning back for either of them, and they knew it. 

The "dozy embrace"  was totally Jack's understanding of love they had.  What was Ennis's "dozy embrace"?  I didn't see it.   Was it there?   I didn't see anything symbolizing Ennis acknowledgement of what they had, until after Jack died, and still it was a symbol more attributed to Jack then to Ennis.

[SierraVista]

For me:

The FNIT, was Ennis's  sexual awakening.  Ennis felt it when Jack took his hand, Ennis didn't think, but acted instinctively.  Ennis took Jack  naturally, without instruction.   Jack submitted to him.  But did they understand this was how it was going to be from now on?   And up until this point, did Ennis understand this over whelming urge and did he ever feel this for Alma?

The  SNIT, Jack guided Ennis,  Jack showed Ennis in the ways of making love,  the first kiss, arkward, gentle, Jack's assurances that its all right.  Ennis totally giving into Jack's body, touching him, smelling him, feeling him.   And most importantly the trust they had to have for each other in taking such a step as this.  This was intimacy.  There was no turning back for either of them, and they knew it. 

The "dozy embrace"  was totally Jack's understanding of love they had.  What was Ennis's "dozy embrace"?  I didn't see it.   Was it there?   I didn't see anything symbolizing Ennis acknowledgement of what they had, until after Jack died, and still it was a symbol more attributed to Jack then to Ennis.

Oh Yeah. Nice guy that Jack.

Jack pretty well FUC*ED things up for Ennis. Screwed up his head and his life. Knew he was engaged yet ,like the clever and shrewd coyote he was,dismissed the fact and manipulated his way into Ennis confidance,took advantage of his insecurities and loneliness,waited until the right moment at night or early morning when he was so drunk he couldn't even stand,finally got Ennis into the tent then offered himself up to satisfy his carnal desires and snatch away Ennis virginity from Alma.Something that what was rightfully her due from her bethrothed.When Alma finally got to enjoy her husband he had already been fully conditioned phyically and emotionally to equate the act anally by association of nearly a full summer with Jack. When Ennis would turn Alma on her belly he didn't feel he was degrading her since he associated it with the type of love making he did with his very first and only partner.God only knows how many partners Jack had prior to Ennis.As if enough damage wasn't done, he pursued Ennis even after they both had married.

 I guess Ennis should have completely disregarded all possible ramaifications upon his daughters if they couldn't accept their fathers taking up with a man.Certainly his daughters peers unacceptance would have created a good ole time for all.If things turned out so badly for Jack because Ennis kept him at a distance ,exactly what the hell should he have expected? YEAH,that Jack was some "thinker".

[manhattangirl]

Oh that terrible Jack the "sexinator", goes around making Innocent unsuspecting victims into raving sexually confused repressive depressives.  No,  that is not my point.

All I wanted to know what was it that brought Ennis to understanding of his love for Jack.   And some of us get so upset at the fact that Ennis was engaged, how many times have we done things that we thought we supposed to do, and come up against something that seem more right than anything else?     Would we be so incensed if this was another woman?  I really don't think so, our overwhelming refrain would be "follow your heart my boy". And as for being drunk is an idea I really never bought into.  Believe me he's probably been drunk before, knew what is was and how to deal.   

Is Ennis so mentally deficient, that he doesn't know what is going on, but aware more than most of the dangerous ground he was walking, and treaded lightly, because of that fear.   Still trying to hold on to the one thing that mattered to him, and it mattered, Jack mattered.  His love for him mattered to him.    All I wanted to if there was someting that show his love for Jack, if there was symbol something I missed.  But I understand now, just loving Jack, fighting to keep it, under the strain of his fears, is a sort testament in itself.










 

[FlwrChild]

But I understand now, just loving Jack, fighting to keep it, under the strain of his fears, is a sort testament in itself.
 

Beautifully put manhattangirl.

As to when he first fell in love with Jack, I guess that's hard to quantify. And there's when he fell in love as compared to when he realized it was love. I don't think he truly understood and appreciated what they had until Jack died. But I always thought the "ain't no reins" scene was an indicator of how strongly he felt about Jack. And the short story gives us a lot of clues. The 'headlong, irreversible fall' he felt at the end of the first summer, telling Jack at the reunion scene how bad he felt at that time and that it "Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights." And in the movie, I think the SNIT showed him opening up to Jack and choosing to be in the relationship in a way that was so much more intimate and tender than the FNIT that I always took that to be the beginning of the decision to love Jack.
Hmm, now I'm rambling.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Oh Yeah. Nice guy that Jack.

Jack pretty well FUC*ED things up for Ennis. Screwed up his head and his life. Knew he was engaged yet ,like the clever and shrewd coyote he was,dismissed the fact and manipulated his way into Ennis confidance,took advantage of his insecurities and loneliness,waited until the right moment at night or early morning when he was so drunk he couldn't even stand,finally got Ennis into the tent then offered himself up to satisfy his carnal desires and snatch away Ennis virginity from Alma.Something that what was rightfully her due from her bethrothed.When Alma finally got to enjoy her husband he had already been fully conditioned phyically and emotionally to equate the act anally by association of nearly a full summer with Jack. When Ennis would turn Alma on her belly he didn't feel he was degrading her since he associated it with the type of love making he did with his very first and only partner.God only knows how many partners Jack had prior to Ennis.As if enough damage wasn't done, he pursued Ennis even after they both had married.

 I guess Ennis should have completely disregarded all possible ramaifications upon his daughters if they couldn't accept their fathers taking up with a man.Certainly his daughters peers unacceptance would have created a good ole time for all.If things turned out so badly for Jack because Ennis kept him at a distance ,exactly what the hell should he have expected? YEAH,that Jack was some "thinker".

I don't want to start an argument here, however I am somewhat floored by what I am reading.  Let's remember a couple of key points:

a.  Ennis was perfectly capable (drunk or sober) of preventing any unwanted sexual advances from Jack.
b.  Ennis was perfectly capable of discouraging future communication from Jack.  He could have answered "no" to Jack's first postcard.  Whatever feelings he still felt for Jack could have remained on ice indefinitely. As it turned out Ennis could barely contain himself at the sight of Jack after 4 years apart.  It didn't look as though future ramifications were foremost in Ennis's thoughts.

It seems that in your eyes Ennis was some sort of victim here at the hands of Jack.  I disagree.  I also remember being insecure like Ennis at age 19 and 20.  However, no one was touching me inappropriately unless I wanted them too...and I wasn't as physically capable of preventing it as Ennis.

I believe in preserving the sanctity of marriage and family.  However, it is a crime for our society to force two adults into marriages that they may not be capable of honoring.  The damage depicted in this film as a result was hurtful and widespread.  I don't condone some of the choices made, but I understand how the heart can often overrule one's logic.

[LuvJackNasty]

Well in the BBM I watched Jack was not a predator and Ennis was not a spineless wimp who was powerless and couldn't think for himself.  It was Ennis that laid out the rules for the summer- A one shot thing. He never threatened Jack or even stayed away from him. He voluntarily went into the tent during SNIT. Jack sent out a postcard to Ennis which Ennis CHOSE to respond to, not to mention that he was the one who grabbed Jack and started that kiss. Ennis chose to quit his jobs and Ennis chose to not ranch up with Jack.  I could go on and on. If Jack had so much power and influence over Ennis then they would have never parted ways in 1963 and we wouldn’t be sitting here having a discussion. With the exception of falling in love, their relationship was a series of choices- the choice to continue it, to meet up, to accept the constraints on it etc.

As to when he first fell in love with Jack, I guess that's hard to quantify. And there's when he fell in love as compared to when he realized it was love. I don't think he truly understood and appreciated what they had until Jack died. But I always thought the "ain't no reins" scene was an indicator of how strongly he felt about Jack. And the short story gives us a lot of clues. The 'headlong, irreversible fall' he felt at the end of the first summer, telling Jack at the reunion scene how bad he felt at that time and that it "Took me about a year to figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights." And in the movie, I think the SNIT showed him opening up to Jack and choosing to be in the relationship in a way that was so much more intimate and tender than the FNIT that I always took that to be the beginning of the decision to love Jack.
Hmm, now I'm rambling.

Well said  It's hard to pinpoint that exact moment because it was a feeling that built up during their time spent together. There are so many little glances and as Flwrchild pointed out so many clues as to what they were feeling during that summer.

[LuvJackNasty]

Well said CSC 

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I agree the begining of their love was hard to pinpoint.  This isn't a story where there were fireworks from the start.  As stated in earlier posts, there were moments where you could see them growing closer.

[Mars]

I entirely share manhattangirl, FlwrChild, City Slickin' Cowboy and LuvJackNasty thoughts.

[manhattangirl]

Oh Yeah. Nice guy that Jack.

Jack pretty well FUC*ED things up for Ennis. Screwed up his head and his life. Knew he was engaged yet ,like the clever and shrewd coyote he was,dismissed the fact and manipulated his way into Ennis confidance,took advantage of his insecurities and loneliness,waited until the right moment at night or early morning when he was so drunk he couldn't even stand,finally got Ennis into the tent then offered himself up to satisfy his carnal desires and snatch away Ennis virginity from Alma.Something that what was rightfully her due from her bethrothed.When Alma finally got to enjoy her husband he had already been fully conditioned phyically and emotionally to equate the act anally by association of nearly a full summer with Jack. When Ennis would turn Alma on her belly he didn't feel he was degrading her since he associated it with the type of love making he did with his very first and only partner.God only knows how many partners Jack had prior to Ennis.As if enough damage wasn't done, he pursued Ennis even after they both had married.

 I guess Ennis should have completely disregarded all possible ramaifications upon his daughters if they couldn't accept their fathers taking up with a man.Certainly his daughters peers unacceptance would have created a good ole time for all.If things turned out so badly for Jack because Ennis kept him at a distance ,exactly what the hell should he have expected? YEAH,that Jack was some "thinker".

We have to be honest with ourselves.  This is the prevailing feeling that many have.   The key word is love, when did they fall in love?    That one word sticks in people craw.  The thought of love, like it was something only deserved by those who believe in the conventions set down by all societies, ignoring the acceptance of one's love for another of the same sex, and saying yes it happens, it's been going on throughtout the history of the world. 

Jack preyed on Ennis.   Instead of looking at them as two young men in love.   Ennis must have been, had to be a victim, Jack with no morals, depraved, took advantage of him, the victimizer.  How sad.  one's own sexuality,  I always believed was something to be accepted,  It had to be, because what cure is there? and did one want to be cured?   

[tpe]

To define when love begins is really tricky, no?

In the reunion, we are sure at they are truly in love.  And in the SNIT, we do feel that there is more to their feelings than mere sensual gratification, especially if we take into account the tenderness of it all.

I do suspect that love started earlier than these two scenes where we see their love close to actuality.  And yet, scenes like these do remind us that by the time love reveals itself to many of us, it is already fully formed within.  The miracle is that it still manages to surprise us when we are finally there.  So it is in the case of Ennis and Jack.

[FlwrChild]

To define when love begins is really tricky, no?

In the reunion, we are sure at they are truly in love.  And in the SNIT, we do feel that there is more to their feelings than mere sensual gratification, especially if we take into account the tenderness of it all.

I do suspect that love started earlier than these two scenes where we see their love close to actuality.  And yet, scenes like these do remind us that by the time love reveals itself to many of us, it is already fully formed within.  The miracle is that it still manages to surprise us when we are finally there.  So it is in the case of Ennis and Jack.

Beautiful Thomas. And so true.

[tpe]

Beautiful Thomas. And so true.

In many ways, we are the last to know when we are in love, no?

[zephK]

In many ways, we are the last to know when we are in love, no?

  Watch Ennis's eyes in the "That's the most I've talked in a year" scene.  He surprises himself with his openness with Jack, and you can actually see him wonder if he's revealed too much and question whut's happening here.  That Mr. Ledger did not get the Oscar is proof enough that AMPAS is too wrapped up in its own myths to matter anymore to intelligent and aware moviegoers.

[aintfoolin]

Personally as I watch the opening scenes Jack: " Your folks just stop at Ennis?....and "Pleased to meet you Ennis Del Mar" Watch the eyes !  How flirtatious is THAT???

[zephK]

Personally as I watch the opening scenes Jack: " Your folks just stop at Ennis?....and "Pleased to meet you Ennis Del Mar" Watch the eyes !  How flirtatious is THAT???

  Ya know, this has gotten me shot down before, but I really think that Jack (even in the famous lounging on the truck scene) isn't so much cruising Ennis, or flirting with him, as just being very interested.  Think about it: they're both described as being from lonesome far away ranches with the nearest neighbor 8 to 10 miles away.  They're both highschool drop outs.  How far along in the line of social skills do we think they got?  Schools that remote can have fewer students in grades 9-12 than most of us had in home room.  I remember about 16, maybe 17, years ago seeing a graduating class (on Johnny Carson) from some place in Nebraska that was as remote as Sage or Lighning Flats that was a total of 6 guys, and they were the largest class in the school!  (Remember Ennis had to drive an hour each way between from where he lived with his brother and sister and the school - with two hours of commuting each day, so something says to me there was no time for band practice or football...IOW, zero socializing)  What I'm saying is that I think their intial reactions to one another are excited interest just because the guy they're going to work with and be alone with for the summer is someone around their own age from a similar background, that rare someone in their lives who they can identify with, who they want to know more about.  I think this is the just the entrance to the path to their love affair, not necessarily portraying sexual desire.  I really believe Jack when he says, "Happy to know you, Ennis Del Mar," but I'm not so sure he already thinks he's going to get in Ennis's shorts, just yet, since just to have a friend their own age would be a genuine novelty for either boy.

[tpe]

Their eyes speak so many times in scenes wherein hardly any words are exchanged.  You really get to see their love surfacing from deep inside:

- When Jack looks down at Ennis's campfire, look at Jack's eyes.

- When Ennis looks up at Jack with ther sheep, look at Ennis's eyes.

Perhaps one of the most beautiful instances is when Jack has finished packing and he looks at the sulking Ennis at some distance.  At that very moment, you see all the love and sympathy that would last a lifetime in Jack's eyes.

At that moment, there is no doubt that Jack loved Ennis above all things.

[welshwitch]

The look in Jack's eyes when he tries to clean up Ennis's face and Ennis brushes his hand away speaks volumes -and the way he wants to touch Ennis suggests he's feeling more than just concern for an injured friends.

[tpe]

The look in Jack's eyes when he tries to clean up Ennis's face and Ennis brushes his hand away speaks volumes -and the way he wants to touch Ennis suggests he's feeling more than just concern for an injured friends.

WW, yes, this is an excellent example.  There is a clear suppression of feeling in his face -- as if he does not want to reveal much.  Surely this is love peeking out.

[LuvJackNasty]

  Watch Ennis's eyes in the "That's the most I've talked in a year" scene.  He surprises himself with his openness with Jack, and you can actually see him wonder if he's revealed too much and question whut's happening here.  That Mr. Ledger did not get the Oscar is proof enough that AMPAS is too wrapped up in its own myths to matter anymore to intelligent and aware moviegoers.

I giggle at that part because he's so quiet, makes that comment and then keeps on talking.  Just shows how confortable he is with Jack and almost proud of himself for getting such a reaction out of Jack 

[LuvJackNasty]

WW and TPE- all of those are beautiful moments for our boys  No words are needed at certain points.

[tpe]

WW and TPE- all of those are beautiful moments for our boys  No words are needed at certain points.

This is why I am surprised when I read comments outside this forum about people complaining that the FNIT happed just out of the blue.  These people should be more observant.  They are the people who have to be hit by an on-coming train before they realize that they can't cross to the other side.

[zephK]

This is why I am surprised when I read comments outside this forum about people complaining that the FNIT happed just out of the blue.  These people should be more observant.  They are the people who have to be hit by an on-coming train before they realize that they can't cross to the other side.

  I'm sure this has been said before, but this is one of the most signal parts of the movie: it begins (in Signal) in silence.  Other than Jack's half-heard "Shit!" when he kicks the pickup, the boys' first scenes are done in silence, but so much goes on that we have to get used to understanding that using "gestures and looks" as well as words is the usual way of communicating in the society in which they grew up!  The fist sentence in the film isn't spoken until four and a half minutes have gone by, and neither of the main characters speak (other than that throwaway curse) in the first six and a half minutes!  The movie tells us how to watch it, that gestures and looks are going to be equally important as the spoken word, because they are equally important to the boys.