Topic: When did they start to fall in love?

[lightnin flat]

Yes.  Very well said!

               
                              Thank you.

                                             

[lamusica]

This must have been Ennis's first real taste of love.  He didn't recognize it for what it was while on the mountain, but the minute Jack drove away and he was left alone, walking down the road, the enormity of his loss hit him causing him to shake, get sick, vomit, get angry, beat his fist on the wall, etc.  When did he fall in love?  Probably it had been creeping up on him over the summer, then caught him good after the FNIT.  But it didn't affect him until he saw Jack drive away.  He STILL didn't see it for what it was then.  It took another four years before he finally figured out that what he felt for Jack was love.  Perhaps he realized he was missing something in his feelings for Alma, and that something was what he felt for Jack.  That had to be love.
I agree that Jack fell in love much earlier.  You can see it in his looks toward Ennis from early on in the film.  He was watching Ennis intently from the second he got out of his pickup and looked at Ennis standing by the trailer door.  Maybe Jack was always open to finding a new man.  Maybe his past had included many encounters, and maybe a few relationships with men, so he was always open to a new-comer.  Whatever the case, he was eyeing Ennis from point one.  Falling in love, however, may have happened at any time after that.  I think he loved him while on the mountain.  That's why he was so hurt when Ennis punched him on their last day there.  He was already in love and couldn't imagine why Ennis was so angry that he hit him so hard.  Just MHO.

[tpe]

This must have been Ennis's first real taste of love.  He didn't recognize it for what it was while on the mountain, but the minute Jack drove away and he was left alone, walking down the road, the enormity of his loss hit him causing him to shake, get sick, vomit, get angry, beat his fist on the wall, etc.  When did he fall in love?  Probably it had been creeping up on him over the summer, then caught him good after the FNIT.  But it didn't affect him until he saw Jack drive away.  He STILL didn't see it for what it was then.  It took another four years before he finally figured out that what he felt for Jack was love.  Perhaps he realized he was missing something in his feelings for Alma, and that something was what he felt for Jack.  That had to be love.
I agree that Jack fell in love much earlier.  You can see it in his looks toward Ennis from early on in the film.  He was watching Ennis intently from the second he got out of his pickup and looked at Ennis standing by the trailer door.  Maybe Jack was always open to finding a new man.  Maybe his past had included many encounters, and maybe a few relationships with men, so he was always open to a new-comer.  Whatever the case, he was eyeing Ennis from point one.  Falling in love, however, may have happened at any time after that.  I think he loved him while on the mountain.  That's why he was so hurt when Ennis punched him on their last day there.  He was already in love and couldn't imagine why Ennis was so angry that he hit him so hard.  Just MHO.

Interesting, lamusica.

I don't know if this makes sense, but I felt that both of them sort of fell in love with each other much earlier -- before they even knew it.  And it was Jack who first recognized and acknowlegded that love inside of him.

 

[FlwrChild]

Makes perfect sense, tpe. I was about to say something similar. My feeling is that they began to fall in love quite early on and it grew from there. I'd reference this passage from the short story:

They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected. Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

And I agree that Jack knew and recognized it as love long before Ennis did, or would admit to himself.

[myprivatejack]

For me it´s difficult to see clearly if these feelings described in the passage you have included are referring to a great friendship based in giving each other what they needed most-for example,in Ennis´case,open himself to somebody more than never before,what is clearly a Jack´s success-or a real love.What I see more clearly is that precisely these friendship,the way they give each other the best of themselves to have at young age the affection they didn´t have when children at 100%is what later became love.When?I agree with you,FlowrChild,that Jack fell in love and recognized it as love before Ennis, or at least,before Ennis put the name of love to "this thing",in his words and in his heart.

[lamusica]

Makes perfect sense, tpe. I was about to say something similar. My feeling is that they began to fall in love quite early on and it grew from there. I'd reference this passage from the short story:

They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected. Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

And I agree that Jack knew and recognized it as love long before Ennis did, or would admit to himself.

I think this is falling into friendship, as myprivatejack says below.  I have gone through those stages with people under certain conditions, but it never ended in LOVE.  Maybe it's the definition of love that we are not totally seeing the same way.

I feel love, true love, is something that happens after the friendship has set in and settled down.  The two find something even better than all the wonderful components of friendship to explore with one another.  This, to me, is the LOVE stage.

That's why I feel neither Jack nor Ennis really love one another completely on the mountain.  They just scratch the surface up there.  Time apart makes them realize that there is so much more in the other person that they want.  This is the love.

[FlwrChild]

Mmm, good points, myprivatejack and lamusica. Hard to say when the friendship developed into love.

I do believe, though, that what they felt by the time they left the mountain was indeed love. I do agree that the time apart brought the realization, but I think the feeling was already cemented, whether they recognized it or not. I think that's why Ennis collapses in the alley, and I think it's why Jack wanted so badly to establish an opportunity for them to see each other again. He certainly wouldn't have taken the shirt, either, as a token of just a good friendship. I guess I'll never know for sure when it happened, but I do believe the love was formed while they were on the mountain.

[welshwitch]

I think love can grow and develop from friendship which becomes deeper and leads on to realise that one is more involved with someone , that their presence is more necessary, than would be true just of friendship.

However, there's also the coup de foudre, that moment when you see someone and know that nothing in your life will ever be the same because this is the one. What comes later can be complications, difficulties, heartbreak; makes no difference. This is the sort of love that " bears it out even to the edge of doom", though it may not lead to a happy shared life.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

He certainly wouldn't have taken the shirt, either, as a token of just a good friendship. I guess I'll never know for sure when it happened, but I do believe the love was formed while they were on the mountain.

You make a very good point where Jack is concerned.

[tpe]

Makes perfect sense, tpe. I was about to say something similar. My feeling is that they began to fall in love quite early on and it grew from there. I'd reference this passage from the short story:

They were respectful of each other's opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected. Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

And I agree that Jack knew and recognized it as love long before Ennis did, or would admit to himself.

Thanks Flwrchild.  I wonder sometimes what made Jack more accpeting of himself and his feelings.  For Ennis, his lonely upbringing and his traumatic choldhood experience made it easier to understand the sublimation of his own feelings, but I had wondered what had prepared Jack this way.  He clearly did not have a very happy childhood, it seems.  But I guess there was no real trauma -- in the same sense as what Ennis went through (i.e., the fate of Earl).

[tpe]

I think this is falling into friendship, as myprivatejack says below.  I have gone through those stages with people under certain conditions, but it never ended in LOVE.  Maybe it's the definition of love that we are not totally seeing the same way.

I feel love, true love, is something that happens after the friendship has set in and settled down.  The two find something even better than all the wonderful components of friendship to explore with one another.  This, to me, is the LOVE stage.

That's why I feel neither Jack nor Ennis really love one another completely on the mountain.  They just scratch the surface up there.  Time apart makes them realize that there is so much more in the other person that they want.  This is the love.

I feel the same way in a lot of cases, lamusica.  But I am also aware of cases when there was a spark from the very beginning, and that a budding friendship only conformed what they had felt all along.  IN the case of Ennis and Jack, I somehow felt it was the latter, well, as far as the movie presented it.

But this is a matter of feeling, I guess.  Many relationships do happen more gradually, starting with friendship.

[tpe]

I think love can grow and develop from friendship which becomes deeper and leads on to realise that one is more involved with someone , that their presence is more necessary, than would be true just of friendship.

However, there's also the coup de foudre, that moment when you see someone and know that nothing in your life will ever be the same because this is the one. What comes later can be complications, difficulties, heartbreak; makes no difference. This is the sort of love that " bears it out even to the edge of doom", though it may not lead to a happy shared life.

Yes this is what I meant in my last post. And yes, sometimes, a love can be that which goes against fate itself.

[myprivatejack]

I think this is falling into friendship, as myprivatejack says below.  I have gone through those stages with people under certain conditions, but it never ended in LOVE.  Maybe it's the definition of love that we are not totally seeing the same way.

I feel love, true love, is something that happens after the friendship has set in and settled down.  The two find something even better than all the wonderful components of friendship to explore with one another.  This, to me, is the LOVE stage.

That's why I feel neither Jack nor Ennis really love one another completely on the mountain.  They just scratch the surface up there.  Time apart makes them realize that there is so much more in the other person that they want.  This is the love.

Well for me theorizing about friendship and love is very difficult,because we can´t speak and less still, put concret rules in feelings,but just LIVING THEM.But I think that in Ennis and Jack´s case,the coincidence in having had a difficult childhood and youth made them closer as to become good friends,affection was born and this,united with a sexual atrraction-clear in Jack´s case,hidden and guilty in Ennis´-became something deeper.The time in which these levels must have produced is the same,because you can´t measure them...
However,perhaps the premature separation made them idealize the time they have been together and themselves,creating a feeling that couldn´t but grow between them...

[aintfoolin]

I think this is falling into friendship, as myprivatejack says below.  I have gone through those stages with people under certain conditions, but it never ended in LOVE.  Maybe it's the definition of love that we are not totally seeing the same way.

I feel love, true love, is something that happens after the friendship has set in and settled down.  The two find something even better than all the wonderful components of friendship to explore with one another.  This, to me, is the LOVE stage.

That's why I feel neither Jack nor Ennis really love one another completely on the mountain.  They just scratch the surface up there.  Time apart makes them realize that there is so much more in the other person that they want.  This is the love.

 This is a great post lamusica,

But I do think they really did fall in love up on the mountain, but to them, it was not clearly defined to them at the time.

 Yes, they were friends first, but it is from this friendship that love grew to be up there. Everything that happened after this is built on that love.  My bet is somewhere around the time of the bear incident with Jack, and definitly by SNIT with Ennis.

I feel by then they were both aware that this was something beyond just a close friendship and I also think it was a suprise to both of them in SNIT that these feelings, this friendship had turned into love though niether could define or say it out loud. They just knew. I think it is this realization that Ennis tried to deny, that he had fallen in love with another man, Jack. but I feel Jack knew what had happened and wanted to build on it.

He knew Ennis was the *one* he could love forever when they came back down to Signal. Ennis knew it too, but he did'nt feel he could face the storm of society's wrath or get past the fear of the history of Earl and Rich. The reality of his love for Jack vs society came head to head back in Signal and he chose a "normal" life with Alma  over Jack  on the surface,trying to bury that fact that he really wanted to go with Jack. Again I feel Jack knew all of this, but had to let go. Ennis did'nt give him much choice with his "see ya around"  grand finaly. But Jack knew better imo. It took 4 years, two phony marriages with kids for Jack to recieve confirmation for what he knew back in Signal when he drove away was right. The reunion scene said it all. MO

[ragtimecowboy]

Think this means the film have to bee seen againg at least a couple of times

      That means that we all should go pop it in the DVD player and see whether it was when Jack dipped his bandana in the hot water after the horse threw Ennis, or when he stipped down and those corners of those beautiful blue eyes were being overworked from tying to sneak sideshots, or was it in the beginning when they were in the bar....

[BBBOY]

I believe they fell in love the moment they set eyes on each other at Aguire's trailor. Neither knew or understood it but it was there from the very first moment. Jack came to realize it sooner than Ennis but it was what we all hear about and believe can happen, love at first sight. The SS and movie were all about them trying to deal with it as they progressed through life without knowing what it really was.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

      That means that we all should go pop it in the DVD player and see whether it was when Jack dipped his bandana in the hot water after the horse threw Ennis, or when he stipped down and those corners of those beautiful blue eyes were being overworked from tying to sneak sideshots, or was it in the beginning when they were in the bar....

Considering their backgrounds, I don't believe their feelings of love were immediate.  I do believe they knew they were comfortable with each other at the bar.  Ennis seemed to have little trouble opening up about the death of his parents.  I can't imagine he talked about it much.

I believe Jack's growing feelings were more obvious early on.  He was quite pleased when Ennis talked about his upbringing after his parents were gone.  Since Ennis wasn't much of a talker Jack had to have felt Ennis liked him and was more comfortable around him.  Personally, I would have considered it a compliment to get that much out of him.

[FlwrChild]

I believe they fell in love the moment they set eyes on each other at Aguire's trailor. Neither knew or understood it but it was there from the very first moment. Jack came to realize it sooner than Ennis but it was what we all hear about and believe can happen, love at first sight. The SS and movie were all about them trying to deal with it as they progressed through life without knowing what it really was.

Sigh, that's just beautiful....

[BBBOY]

Sigh, that's just beautiful....

It's how I see it FlwrChild and what I have always believed is possible. Not many of us are that lucky, but those who have known it or believe know what I am talking about. 

[tpe]

I believe they fell in love the moment they set eyes on each other at Aguire's trailor. Neither knew or understood it but it was there from the very first moment. Jack came to realize it sooner than Ennis but it was what we all hear about and believe can happen, love at first sight. The SS and movie were all about them trying to deal with it as they progressed through life without knowing what it really was.

Interesting comments from BBBOY and ragtimecowboy. 

I admit that there is that possibility: that they were in love even before they knew it.  Did they really understand the nature of the attraction when they first met outside Aguirre's trailer? 

[tpe]

Considering their backgrounds, I don't believe their feelings of love were immediate.  I do believe they knew they were comfortable with each other at the bar.  Ennis seemed to have little trouble opening up about the death of his parents.  I can't imagine he talked about it much.

I believe Jack's growing feelings were more obvious early on.  He was quite pleased when Ennis talked about his upbringing after his parents were gone.  Since Ennis wasn't much of a talker Jack had to have felt Ennis liked him and was more comfortable around him.  Personally, I would have considered it a compliment to get that much out of him.

I somehow feel that each one felt that there was something different here.  I had always wondered why Ennis opened up to Jack in the bar -- too soon, perhaps, to share such intimate and painful details about one's life with a new acquaintance.  The fact that he was comfortable with Jack does seem to indicate that there was something inside of him that "recognized" and trusted Jack implicitly.  I also get this feeling sometimes -- when you feel that you like a person from the onset.  In some cases, it was as close as I cam to love at first sight.

[myprivatejack]

I somehow feel that each one felt that there was something different here.  I had always wondered why Ennis opened up to Jack in the bar -- too soon, perhaps, to share such intimate and painful details about one's life with a new acquaintance.  The fact that he was comfortable with Jack does seem to indicate that there was something inside of him that "recognized" and trusted Jack implicitly.  I also get this feeling sometimes -- when you feel that you like a person from the onset.  In some cases, it was as close as I cam to love at first sight.

I suppose that,beyond sexual attraction only,each one perceived that there was something that,at least,could lead them to become good friends and that it was from almost the beginning.And that for Ennis above all,was very important to meet someone who didn't belong to the "macho"man environment he was used to live in,I'm sure it was...This and his shared need for warmth(speaking in all the senses)made the rest from the bar scene onwards.

[tpe]

I suppose that,beyond sexual attraction only,each one perceived that there was something that,at least,could lead them to become good friends and that it was from almost the beginning.And that for Ennis above all,was very important to meet someone who didn't belong to the "macho"man environment he was used to live in,I'm sure it was...This and his shared need for warmth(speaking in all the senses)made the rest from the bar scene onwards.

Somehow, I had felt that the attraction came first -- as a kind of gut reaction, you know?  Then, each one -- Jack, especially -- started to probe and see if there was something beyond the sexual, in the realm of friendship and likeability.  Does this make sense?  I think with our lovers, it is like this many times.  Initially, physical attraction piques our interest, and then we start exploring the indovidual for signs of mutual interests or characteristics. 

In the end, I think love is founded on both.  Nature is wise in attracting us initially via physical attraction, and then proceeds to delve into deeper, more emotional/personal matters.

 

[athena0204]

I believe they fell in love the moment they set eyes on each other at Aguire's trailor. Neither knew or understood it but it was there from the very first moment. Jack came to realize it sooner than Ennis but it was what we all hear about and believe can happen, love at first sight. The SS and movie were all about them trying to deal with it as they progressed through life without knowing what it really was.

I'm a romantic idealist, and I believe in love at first sight. From the moment they first saw each other, these boys fell in love. I think they both realized it very soon, as with true love, you just know it, because you feel it with all your heart and soul. You can tell from the beginning that it wasn't just attraction...there was something deeper that both Jack and Ennis felt, it was true love, right from the start. They both opened up their feelings to each other from early on, and it's because they had that feeling of trust. They made each other feel free and complete, and you could tell that from the moment they met, their lives would never be the same because they had found true love. Each one showed the other the meaning and beauty of true love and how strong and unbreakable that wonderful bond is. Before that, Jack and Ennis didn't really have much meaning in their lives, but when they fell in love with each other, they both became aware of what it really is to live and what happiness is, because all they needed was each other, together, they were in heaven.

[tpe]

I'm a romantic idealist, and I believe in love at first sight. From the moment they first saw each other, these boys fell in love. I think they both realized it very soon, as with true love, you just know it, because you feel it with all your heart and soul. You can tell from the beginning that it wasn't just attraction...there was something deeper that both Jack and Ennis felt, it was true love, right from the start. They both opened up their feelings to each other from early on, and it's because they had that feeling of trust. They made each other feel free and complete, and you could tell that from the moment they met, their lives would never be the same because they had found true love. Each one showed the other the meaning and beauty of true love and how strong and unbreakable that wonderful bond is. Before that, Jack and Ennis didn't really have much meaning in their lives, but when they fell in love with each other, they both became aware of what it really is to live and what happiness is, because all they needed was each other, together, they were in heaven.

Well, I do tend to believe that love at first sight does happen. 

So you would say that it all started when they dirst set eyes on each other outside Aguirre's trailer...

[christie wood]

I'm a romantic idealist, and I believe in love at first sight. From the moment they first saw each other, these boys fell in love. I think they both realized it very soon, as with true love, you just know it, because you feel it with all your heart and soul. You can tell from the beginning that it wasn't just attraction...there was something deeper that both Jack and Ennis felt, it was true love, right from the start. They both opened up their feelings to each other from early on, and it's because they had that feeling of trust. They made each other feel free and complete, and you could tell that from the moment they met, their lives would never be the same because they had found true love. Each one showed the other the meaning and beauty of true love and how strong and unbreakable that wonderful bond is. Before that, Jack and Ennis didn't really have much meaning in their lives, but when they fell in love with each other, they both became aware of what it really is to live and what happiness is, because all they needed was each other, together, they were in heaven.

I love the idea of love at first sight too, me being a complete romantic.  I'd like to believe it was love at first sight for Ennis and Jack, but I'm not sure....I certainly think there was a connection, a spark, something they couldnt quite articulate (especially Ennis), and as time went on, that thing between them grew, stronger and stronger, until they realised.  So maybe, on thinking back,they both, if they'd been able to say it, knew that as soon as they saw the other, a fire had started, and it never went out.  I think it was a slow burning thing.....I think too that Jack was able to allow himself to think he was in love with Ennis far sooner than Ennis ever could.  I'm not saying Ennis didnt feel that, he was just so repressed there is no way he would admit that to himself.  Thats why we see him use anger as a way of expressing is feelings - anger when he sees Jack putting the tent down, anger when Jack tells him its time to go, anger when Jack has gone.  I think we can safely assume that at this stage, the anger Ennis is feeling is his love for Jack Twist.

[myprivatejack]

I love the idea of love at first sight too, me being a complete romantic.  I'd like to believe it was love at first sight for Ennis and Jack, but I'm not sure....I certainly think there was a connection, a spark, something they couldnt quite articulate (especially Ennis), and as time went on, that thing between them grew, stronger and stronger, until they realised.  So maybe, on thinking back,they both, if they'd been able to say it, knew that as soon as they saw the other, a fire had started, and it never went out.  I think it was a slow burning thing.....I think too that Jack was able to allow himself to think he was in love with Ennis far sooner than Ennis ever could.  I'm not saying Ennis didnt feel that, he was just so repressed there is no way he would admit that to himself.  Thats why we see him use anger as a way of expressing is feelings - anger when he sees Jack putting the tent down, anger when Jack tells him its time to go, anger when Jack has gone.  I think we can safely assume that at this stage, the anger Ennis is feeling is his love for Jack Twist.

I can quote what you say almost word by word,Chris; and I say "almost" because I'm not so romantic as I used to be-time flies like an arrow,you know¡-.So,as you,I'm not so sure that it was "love at first sight" because this words are often mistaken by "attraction at first sight",that's what Jack felt from the very moment he saw Ennis.He was more open to is feelings and sensations,but in any case there must be a basis to build something deeper;and that both of them found this building with time,sharing duties and confidences up in the mountain.From the rest of your post,I only can say that you've taken the words from my mouth¡.

[christie wood]

I can quote what you say almost word by word,Chris; and I say "almost" because I'm not so romantic as I used to be-time flies like an arrow,you know¡-.So,as you,I'm not so sure that it was "love at first sight" because this words are often mistaken by "attraction at first sight",that's what Jack felt from the very moment he saw Ennis.He was more open to is feelings and sensations,but in any case there must be a basis to build something deeper;and that both of them found this building with time,sharing duties and confidences up in the mountain.From the rest of your post,I only can say that you've taken the words from my mouth¡.

Thanks mpj, I'm glad what I said made some sense to you! I get so caught up in the emotions of the film, I'm not sure I'm expressing myself well.

[myprivatejack]

Thanks mpj, I'm glad what I said made some sense to you! I get so caught up in the emotions of the film, I'm not sure I'm expressing myself well.

Yes,you must be sure that it makes sense; what I'm not so sure in that what I say makes it for you because I don't know if I'm explaining myself well enough for language's problems... .Anyhow,is always difficult to theorize about what one feels,or what another persons or characters can feel...they're things one FEEL and LIVE,not always can speak about it properly.

[christie wood]

Yes,you must be sure that it makes sense; what I'm not so sure in that what I say makes it for you because I don't know if I'm explaining myself well enough for language's problems... .Anyhow,is always difficult to theorize about what one feels,or what another persons or characters can feel...they're things one FEEL and LIVE,not always can speak about it properly.

You explained yourself perfectly well, honestly, your english is amazing.    I dont know how I would be able to convey my feelings in another language, so you are doing great. 

It is hard to put things into words about feelings....and I think for someone like Ennis, who hardly talks at all, imagine how it must have been for him to have been hit by this thunderbolt of true love, standing in front him, and in the form of a man, no less?  When I watch the scene outside Aguirre's trailer, I wonder what thoughts are going through Ennis's mind, what is he thinking, what is he feeling when he peeks out from under his hat to look at Jack?  I bet his heart was pounding anyway.