Author Topic: When did Jack decide? (Read 62900 times)

Patriot1 · « **Reply #120 on:** Mar 13, 2006, 11:48 PM »

Quote from: jackie62 on Mar 13, 2006, 11:57 AM

This is one of the big questions that grabs all of us.

patriot1 has really made me rethink what I'd believed the relationship dynamics to have been. From his powerful post i want to touch on a couple of themes.

After reading your post my first reaction was to re watch the movie and write down all the reasons I believe what I do. Then, I realized it was not my job to convince people I am correct and they are wrong. We all see the movie in our own way and the author, screen writers and director intentionally left thing ambiguous so we could.

So, I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything. I am going to be satisfied that no matter how you see the movie you will all come away knowing this is the best movie ever, the acting was beyond words and the directing made this the best movie ever. It has to be. Everyone here has said no movie has ever affected them like this one has.

n061857 · « **Reply #121 on:** Mar 14, 2006, 09:16 AM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Mar 13, 2006, 02:12 AM

As a matter of fact, I know all too well what it is like to be closeted AND repressed AND isolated. I have never been with another person of any gender, except for once and that experience lasted three minutes, was one way and was horrible.

But tell me what statement you are talking about and we can discuss it.

Patriot 1, I am soooooo sorry to hear of your isolation. Isn't this forum a blessing? - Nancy

n061857 · « **Reply #122 on:** Mar 14, 2006, 09:26 AM »

[quote author=jackie62 link=topic=1766.msg41903#msg41903 date=1142269060

I feel the book and the movie are a little different here but they say the same thing to me.
In the book,Ennis admits to Jack in the motel ,that he threw up after their parting and while it took him along time he realized "I shouldn't a let you out of my sights . Too late then by a long way."

Quote

Jackie, Isn't it a shame this admission was not in the movie. I truly believe that both men knew they were in love (or whatever terminology you want to use), when they had been separated for four years and the intensity of their feelings and desires never diminished and in fact grew stronger. That was the test. - Nancy

Patriot1 · « **Reply #123 on:** Mar 14, 2006, 09:43 AM »

Quote from: n061857 on Mar 14, 2006, 09:16 AM

Quote from: Patriot1 on Mar 13, 2006, 02:12 AM

As a matter of fact, I know all too well what it is like to be closeted AND repressed AND isolated. I have never been with another person of any gender, except for once and that experience lasted three minutes, was one way and was horrible.

But tell me what statement you are talking about and we can discuss it.

Patriot 1, I am soooooo sorry to hear of your isolation. Isn't this forum a blessing? - Nancy

My dear, you could never know how much of a blessing.

Lilie · « **Reply #124 on:** Mar 14, 2006, 12:35 PM »

Wow, so many thoughtful posts. Thanks so much, guys.

Patriot1, wonderful posts about Ennis and his love for Jack - I was ready to totally agree with you but then jackie62 made me see things with a new perspective. This movie is so rich and full of details. I still believe Ennis didn't realize the strength and meaning of his love for Jack until it was too late. Or maybe he knew, but didn't let himself accept what it meant. I'm not sure. But after so many insightful posts, I don't know what else I could add, really.

Quote from: Patriot1 on Mar 13, 2006, 02:12 AM

As a matter of fact, I know all too well what it is like to be closeted AND repressed AND isolated. I have never been with another person of any gender, except for once and that experience lasted three minutes, was one way and was horrible.

I'm so sorry about this. I hope BBM and this forum have helped you.

matsuki33 · « **Reply #125 on:** Mar 14, 2006, 12:35 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on Mar 14, 2006, 09:43 AM

Quote from: n061857 on Mar 14, 2006, 09:16 AM
Quote from: Patriot1 on Mar 13, 2006, 02:12 AM

As a matter of fact, I know all too well what it is like to be closeted AND repressed AND isolated. I have never been with another person of any gender, except for once and that experience lasted three minutes, was one way and was horrible.

But tell me what statement you are talking about and we can discuss it.

Patriot 1, I am soooooo sorry to hear of your isolation. Isn't this forum a blessing? - Nancy

My dear, you could never know how much of a blessing.

Patriot 1 you can count on us always we'll be your friends

Stephen · « **Reply #126 on:** Mar 14, 2006, 01:52 PM »

Lilie; I agree; for Ennis it is wisdom too late; that's the tragedy of the story; Annie Proulx in an interview went so far as to say that Ennis would most likely remain homophobic and withdrawn, and maybe move in with Alma Jr. and her husband!

Lilie · « **Reply #127 on:** Mar 14, 2006, 02:03 PM »

Quote from: Stephen on Mar 14, 2006, 01:52 PM

Lilie; I agree; for Ennis it is wisdom too late; that's the tragedy of the story; Annie Proulx in an interview went so far as to say that Ennis would most likely remain homophobic and withdrawn, and maybe move in with Alma Jr. and her husband!

Really? That's interesting. Myself, I've always thought Ennis would probably live alone for the rest of his life. In my mind, now that he's realized what Jack meant to him, he'll love him and keep him in his heart forever, stay with him. I never considered him moving in with Alma Jr. I can see it. I thought he'd made some progress in his homophobia, though, since he finally accepted that he was in love with another man.

pierralex · « **Reply #128 on:** Mar 14, 2006, 02:13 PM »

The reason why he would move in with Alma jr is that the ranch in which he's working has just been sold at the beginning of the story. So if he doesn't find another job quickly enough, he might move in to Alma jr. But I think if he find a new job he'll continue living alone.

Stephen · « **Reply #129 on:** Mar 14, 2006, 02:14 PM »

Yes, I,too, imagined him living alone, mayby sadder but a bit wiser.... although Ennis realized the love Jack had for him, it was a one time deal (as he said after the first tent scene) and for the rest of his life Jack would remain his only love and this would never translate into Ennis becoming a gay man in and of the world.

Lilie · « **Reply #130 on:** Mar 14, 2006, 02:26 PM »

Quote from: Stephen on Mar 14, 2006, 02:14 PM

Yes, I,too, imagined him living alone, mayby sadder but a bit wiser.... although Ennis realized the love Jack had for him, it was a one time deal (as he said after the first tent scene) and for the rest of his life Jack would remain his only love and this would never translate into Ennis becoming a gay man in and of the world.

Yes, exactly. That's tragic and filled with hope at the same time.

Quote

The reason why he would move in with Alma jr is that the ranch in which he's working has just been sold at the beginning of the story. So if he doesn't find another job quickly enough, he might move in to Alma jr. But I think if he find a new job he'll continue living alone.

Oh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

frenchcda · « **Reply #131 on:** Mar 14, 2006, 10:00 PM »

Patriot quote:

frenchcda, I am not sure what statement I made that you are referring to. Which one was it?

As a matter of fact, I know all too well what it is like to be closeted AND repressed AND isolated. I have never been with another person of any gender, except for once and that experience lasted three minutes, was one way and was horrible.

But tell me what statement you are talking about and we can discuss it.

" Ennis was never, with the possible exception of that one time while holding Jack, in love with Jack. I don't think he could even conseve of being in love with Jack he was so homophobic and hung up on their sexual encounters."

Italian_Dude · « **Reply #132 on:** Mar 15, 2006, 12:07 AM »

hmm i have a question?

So.. did Jack and Lureen seperate and then Jack moved back home and had a ranch with that guy, who was the husband of the yappy girl and he asked him to go to this cabin to fish?? is that what happened? thats what I think happened but I've never been fully sure.

sam · « **Reply #133 on:** Mar 15, 2006, 06:52 AM »

Quote from: Italian_Dude on Mar 15, 2006, 12:07 AM

hmm i have a question?

So.. did Jack and Lureen seperate and then Jack moved back home and had a ranch with that guy, who was the husband of the yappy girl and he asked him to go to this cabin to fish?? is that what happened? thats what I think happened but I've never been fully sure.

I think that that is what Jack intended to do. But that it never really happened because his life was suddenly and tragically cut short... :'( Jack's father in the scene with Ennis tells Ennis of Jack's plans...he calls the plans of his son a "half-baked notion" and then informs Ennis that "it never come to pass". (Meaning: it never happened...)

I do think that Jack was having an "affair" with Randall though... Like so many before me have already earlier said in some ot the other threads: In the whiskey drinking evening scene with Ennis, where he says that he has a "thing goin' on with the ranch foreman's wife over in Childress"...I do also personally agree with all the others that Jack was (in truth) referring to Randall when he makes this remark...(he just changes the "gender")

Jack and Randall might have been having an affair together, but I don't think that it was of any "major" significance. And I don't think that Jack ever divorced Lureen, or ever actually moved up to Lightning Flat with Randall.

Above all: I don't think that Jack ever stops loving, wanting, or yearning for a sweet life with Ennis. Ennis was/is what the Spanish so rightly label: his 'gran amor'...(sigh!) In my opinion, this thing with Randall was just to take care of his "physical needs"...just like all his trips to "Mexico"...

sam

Stephen · « **Reply #134 on:** Mar 15, 2006, 07:30 AM »

I agree, Sam; Randall was someone to keep Jack from going over the edge: in the last scene between Jack and Ennis, Jack asserts powerfully how he is different from Ennis, that a f*** every so often on Brokeback is not enough....... It's interesting to note that it took about 20 years for Jack to reach his threshold and have it out with Ennis even though Jack has an abiding love for Ennis which, as the song says, is a love that will never die.

matsuki33 · « **Reply #135 on:** Mar 15, 2006, 08:16 AM »

Well i have to say this Randall was just physical but not emotional at all, Ennis in the other hand was beyond physical. I don't know but the more i see the movie i see that Jack is getting himselft to a deadend i mean all over the years he desperatly tries to get Ennis live with him, move nearby him. he tries to do everything he can think about but Ennis was not willing and ready for that. Jack was in love with Ennis he wanted so desperatly that when he thougth that he could never have him as he wanted he just broke himself in pieces :'( :'( :'( :'(

sam · « **Reply #136 on:** Mar 15, 2006, 08:30 AM »

Quote from: Stephen on Mar 15, 2006, 07:30 AM

I agree, Sam; Randall was someone to keep Jack from going over the edge: in the last scene between Jack and Ennis, Jack asserts powerfully how he is different from Ennis, that a f*** every so often on Brokeback is not enough....... It's interesting to note that it took about 20 years for Jack to reach his threshold and have it out with Ennis even though Jack has an abiding love for Ennis which, as the song says, is a love that will never die.

Oh! So True, Stephen! I haven't stood still by this thought that you just revealed to me (that it takes Jack 20 years to reach his "threshold")... A revelation! Oooohhhhhh!

Now you made me cry again...!

And yes, matsuki33, u r so right: Ennis was indeed: beyond physical... So crushing! I am crying again. (When will this ever stop?)

sam

Lilie · « **Reply #137 on:** Mar 15, 2006, 07:39 PM »

Quote

And yes, matsuki33, u r so right: Ennis was indeed: beyond physical... So crushing!

Yes. I believe Ennis was his soulmate, really. I usually don't like throwing that word around, but I can't find no best way of describing what they had.

Quote

i mean all over the years he desperatly tries to get Ennis live with him, move nearby him. he tries to do everything he can think about but Ennis was not willing and ready for that.

Yeah, that's heartbreaking. Everything he did and say, practically telling him how much he loved him and needed him, but Ennis was too repressed. The tragedy of it all is that Ennis understands what Jack was trying to tell him during all these years only when it's too late for Jack to know it.

matsuki33 · « **Reply #138 on:** Mar 15, 2006, 07:49 PM »

:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
that is what broke my heart there it was too late, my fiance and i were really sad at that part b

JnE · « **Reply #139 on:** Jul 10, 2011, 07:33 PM »

Okay, I really appreciate this thread.

It seriously helped me to figure some things out.

I hope that I'm not committing some monumental forum fopaux by bumping such a freaken old thread!

If so, however, please advise and I will make sure to never committ such a major gaffe again.

Stephen · « **Reply #140 on:** Jul 14, 2011, 07:24 AM »

JnE, it's never too late to join in on a thread here; I entered my response here 5 years ago, and now you are the first in a long time to respond to this interesting question: When did Jack decide....

? Yes, it's a revelatin to think that it took 20 years.....Stephen.

JnE · « **Reply #141 on:** Jul 14, 2011, 10:15 PM »

Thanks, Stephen! Much appreciated!!

I've been reading the 2006 boards on this forum, and it's so cool to see that there are still people checking back that contributed from way back then!

This whole thing is quite enthralling to me. One thread I read started with, "A very important part of this post is the definition of 'quit'. This has caused more confusion, disagreement, and argument than could ever have been imagined. Therefore, please take note that here, 'quit' means 'allow to go' or 'set free' - it DOES NOT mean 'stop loving' or 'forget about'." And, of course, you know the truth of this. "When Did Jack Decide?" and "Why Did Jack Quit Ennis?" are two boards that really spoke to me, since the possibility is horrible to think on, and yet it stares straight at us from Jack's lost eyes in that last meeting. After pondering on it, I've come to the definite conclusion that IF Jack did decide to 'quit' Ennis, it would not have lasted, because Jack would not have been able to stand his dreamlife without his true love, and Ennis would not have been able to "stand" something so heartwrenching that he could "fix"! Jack settling on a life with Randall is no different than Ennis settling on a life with Alma! Jack was seeking constant companionship, but as Ennis had already proven, if it's not with the one you love with all your heart, it simply does not lead to a fulfilling life, in itself a slow death. Afterall, Alma was a good, loving, and agreeable wife (for quite a while even after viewing the kissing scene!!). She wanted to give and be all for Ennis. The companionship was there for him, but he could not encompass it. For Jack, however, as nice as Annie was, it was not the same as Alma to Ennis. Annie let her daddy take over, losing herself, and becoming cold and distant in the process; so Jack had yet to learn the lesson of living with someone who loves you more than you do them. If he had done this, things would have fallen into perspective soon enough, with Randall getting the short end of that stick. I also believe that from the moment Ennis rejected Jack, after Ennis' divorce, Jack started slowly dying - the emotional death becoming complete at the end of their last meeting. His hope was lost, leading Jack to commit a sort of slow suicide by becoming reckless, which was another proof that Jack was not going easily into that second-rate cohabitation. In truth, if he had lived, Jack and Ennis' love would have had no choice but to pull them both back together again... as is proven by the fact that even death could not prevent this from happening.

haveacrush · « **Reply #142 on:** Aug 10, 2011, 02:18 PM »

i dont think.. this is obviously my personal view that Jack never really decided anything. There is no clear hint in either the movie or the short story that he had decided to move on.yes the frustration in the confrontation scene was evident because this was the first and last confrontation they ever had. it was more of a lovers spat. May be what had happened during the dance sequence (which everybody had been mentioning) is that Jack had come to terms to the fact that he can never have the "sweet life" he had once wished to have but at the same time he knew he would not be able to let go of Ennis.

rimasworld · « **Reply #143 on:** Aug 11, 2011, 12:57 AM »

Quote from: haveacrush on Aug 10, 2011, 02:18 PM

i dont think.. this is obviously my personal view that Jack never really decided anything. There is no clear hint in either the movie or the short story that he had decided to move on.yes the frustration in the confrontation scene was evident because this was the first and last confrontation they ever had. it was more of a lovers spat. May be what had happened during the dance sequence (which everybody had been mentioning) is that Jack had come to terms to the fact that he can never have the "sweet life" he had once wished to have but at the same time he knew he would not be able to let go of Ennis.

I agree with you and that's what I love about this movie. So much is left to the viewer's own interpretation. It's not an in your face this is how it is movie. It really makes you think and wonder about what really happened.

haveacrush · « **Reply #144 on:** Aug 12, 2011, 01:09 PM »

Quote from: rimasworld on Aug 11, 2011, 12:57 AM

I agree with you and that's what I love about this movie. So much is left to the viewer's own interpretation. It's not an in your face this is how it is movie. It really makes you think and wonder about what really happened.

thanks rimasworld ... cant agree more its the beauty of the movie that it is wide open to interpretations , oh Well !!! that can even be a whole new topic to discuss on .. what say rimasworld ? you can start the topic or i will