Topic: What if... ?!

[babytammy7]

I know this is another silly what if….But I’ve thought about this several times now…and it’s making me cry and I need to talk about it.

You know how much Jack risked, the things he did to be with Ennis; you know about his endless beyond strong and constant love, how much he hoped and dreamt all his life. You know he did the first move in FNIT; he sent that postcard after four years apart; he was not angry for the punch; he drove 14 hours to be with Ennis all those years and he drove the same distance all happy like a boy without a second thought when he learned about Ennis divorce; he talked about Ennis to his parents; he said to Lureen that his favourite place in the world was BBM; he wanted his ashes there; he kept the shirts for 20 years. But you also know that he started to drink a lot because of his despair and hurt and sadness; you know he went Mexico and he was with Randall because of those same feelings of bitterness and loneliness…You know he became careless because his dreams were shattered with those Ennis no. Jack was passionate and devoted. His world moved around Ennis. Ennis was EVERYTHING for him. So sometimes I wonder what Jack had done if Ennis had died before him…

Ennis was broken, beaten and extremely sad, but he was a stoic, he learned things, painful but true things with Jack’s death, and also he found beautiful things like Jack loved him for real all those years. But what about Jack? Jack didn’t have shirts to find…..not someone telling him that Ennis favourite place was BBM, not Ennis parents saying to him that Ennis talked a lot about him, not even some imaginary Ennis diary saying “hey, I always wanted to live with you and I loved you all the time”. Jack was already a wreck after that last time they met; you can see that in his face the Dozy Embrace flashback.....

What do you think Jack had done when he found about Ennis death? Had he gone to WY to talk to Junior? Had he said to her who really was him for Ennis? Or who was really Ennis for him? Had he asked for Ennis ashes (if Ennis had wanted to be incinerated…)? Had he got those ashes to BBM? Had he lived with Randall after that (I don’t believe that not even for a second!!!) or had he been unable to be with another man? I know for sure that he had been so shattered, so hurting, so sad, that I bet he had gone almost crazy….And I think he had been unable to touch Randall again. I think he had felt so so guilty for what he did, for what he said to Ennis last time (I wish I know how to quit you), for never saying to Ennis “I love you” (Even if he did that because Ennis was not ready to hear that; but you know Jack: he could feel guilty for things he was not responsible for). I can see him crying like a baby in front of Lureen, in front of Junior, in front of anyone….Do you think he had drunk to death? Do you think he had tried to forget with some unknown guy, being all risky and careless till he found the death too?

I know I’m being all nasty here, but I’m not asking this for curiosity….I’m a Jack girl, and for some strange reason I can not see him facing his lover’s death the same way that Ennis (and I know Ennis was devastated). I see him crying, screaming, crazy, drunk….punched and wishing death. His dreams were dead long time ago, but now the wonderful human being that made him have those dreams was dead too, so what he had left? He spent his whole life dreaming to live with Ennis, being more and more bitter because he couldn't have him.....You know how much that hurt Jack and made him suffer...so imagine that suddenly he can't even have him 3 or 4 times a year...He'll never ever be with his love again... :\'( :\'( :\'(

Sorry if this is too dark or inappropriate. I’m having a Jack day..I’m sad and I’ve cry a lot reading about him, and just right one minute ago I saw a pic of his face in the DE scene…..full of devotion to Ennis, so so so full of love, that I thought:“It’s impossible for this man to loose his Ennis. He never gave up, he never stopped loving…He would have gone in November, I just know that”, so suddenly that question was there again… "God, what this man totally in love had done without Ennis?” Just thinking about it hurts like hell.  :\'( :\'( :\'(

Thank you for reading this rambling.  Sometimes I need that.

[tpe]

Thanks Tammy.  You know, there is a grain of truth to what you say here.  Gyllenhaal pretty much admitted it when he said that he believed Ennis to be more faithful than Jack. 

Still, I wonder whether Ennis's death would also have changed Jack fundamentally.  Would we have expected it from Ennis, had Jack not died?  Everything we see about Ennis beforehand seemed to indicate otherwise -- no?  And yet the abiding faithfulness surmounted everything in the end.  Perhaps even his own fears...

[LuvJackNasty]

Aw Thomas, that made me teary  :\'(

  Tammy
I'm not sure what I think Jack would do. Would he be in Wyoming as soon as possible? I believe so and I do think that much like he faced Aguirre the next summer, he would have faced Alma and the girls to find out and pay his respects, carry out any wishes or do his damndest to do so. I'm of the belief that Jack was murdered and I think that after the final confrontation that Jack got reckless, mainly stemming from depression, and that led to his death. In that scene they both admit that they can't stand it, but there was no "fix" either: "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved." And Jack was clinging to the memory of a time that once held so much promise. So in saying all of that, I think that almost the same thing would have eventually played out for Jack. I don't think that that is implying that he is weak, Jack was not weak, but that the love inside of him was so strong and Ennis's death would have taken Jack with it.

[babytammy7]

Aw Thomas, that made me teary  :\'(

  Tammy
I'm not sure what I think Jack would do. Would he be in Wyoming as soon as possible? I believe so and I do think that much like he faced Aguirre the next summer, he would have faced Alma and the girls to find out and pay his respects, carry out any wishes or do his damndest to do so. I'm of the belief that Jack was murdered and I think that after the final confrontation that Jack got reckless, mainly stemming from depression, and that led to his death. In that scene they both admit that they can't stand it, but there was no "fix" either: "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved." And Jack was clinging to the memory of a time that once held so much promise. So in saying all of that, I think that almost the same thing would have eventually played out for Jack. I don't think that that is implying that he is weak, Jack was not weak, but that the love inside of him was so strong and Ennis's death would have taken Jack with it.

Thank you so much, Thomas, Michelle. 

I agree with every word you said, Michelle. I've always thought that Jack had a depression after all those years hoping and getting only "no" and dissapointment in return. That's why he drank so much, that's why he was bitter. I agree with Jack clinging to the memory of a time that held so much promise (the DE).....And god you made me cry bad with your last line, but I know it's totally true and I agree even if that breaks my heart: "...the love inside of him was so strong and Ennis's death would have taken Jack with it."  :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(

[tpe]

Thanks Michelle and Tammy. 

Memories die hard -- as much as dreams die hard.

Had Jack not died, perhaps the dream of a life with Ennis would have died, even as the love and the memories would have continued to live on.  His death certainly put an end to the dream of the sweet life, but we know that a newly enlightened Ennis will never forget.

[keren_b]

You know how much Jack risked, the things he did to be with Ennis; you know about his endless beyond strong and constant love, how much he hoped and dreamt all his life. You know he did the first move in FNIT; he sent that postcard after four years apart; he was not angry for the punch; he drove 14 hours to be with Ennis all those years and he drove the same distance all happy like a boy without a second thought when he learned about Ennis divorce; he talked about Ennis to his parents; he said to Lureen that his favourite place in the world was BBM; he wanted his ashes there; he kept the shirts for 20 years. But you also know that he started to drink a lot because of his despair and hurt and sadness; you know he went Mexico and he was with Randall because of those same feelings of bitterness and loneliness…You know he became careless because his dreams were shattered with those Ennis no. Jack was passionate and devoted. His world moved around Ennis. Ennis was EVERYTHING for him. So sometimes I wonder what Jack had done if Ennis had died before him…

Tammy, I just have to say I love how you described Jack's devotion here.

I'm not sure what I think Jack would do. Would he be in Wyoming as soon as possible? I believe so and I do think that much like he faced Aguirre the next summer, he would have faced Alma and the girls to find out and pay his respects, carry out any wishes or do his damndest to do so. I'm of the belief that Jack was murdered and I think that after the final confrontation that Jack got reckless, mainly stemming from depression, and that led to his death. In that scene they both admit that they can't stand it, but there was no "fix" either: "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved." And Jack was clinging to the memory of a time that once held so much promise. So in saying all of that, I think that almost the same thing would have eventually played out for Jack. I don't think that that is implying that he is weak, Jack was not weak, but that the love inside of him was so strong and Ennis's death would have taken Jack with it.

I've never thought about this possibility before, but when i read this I have to agree. :\'(

Some very insightful posts here. Thank you.

[tpe]

I agree with keren.  I it wonderful to read these insightful posts after not having seen them for a while.

[atalley]

Thank-you, Tammy.

[lauren]

Yup. No matter how you look at it, it always ends up tragically.

The first time I saw the movie, I couldn't believe Jack was dead. Seriously. I expected him to pop up at some point and tell Ennis "Hey, everyone thinks I died, we can be together now". (I know, it doesn't make sense, but I was in serious denial there).

But now that I think about it, I don't think a happy ending was possible for them. Even when I try to come up with other scenarios for the end of the story, the outcome is always the same. It's ultimately Jack's death that made Ennis truly realize his feelings and what Jack meant to him. They would never have been together the way they should have, had Jack lived.

Well, I depressed myself now. PBS is going strong tonight.  :'(

I felt the same way too!! I was so shocked when I saw the word 'Deceased' on the postcard. I thought someone else had died. I only realized it was Jack when Ennis made that phone call to Lureen. Even then, I still didn't want to believe that Jack had died. I thought it was Lureen's idea of keeping Jack away from Ennis or that Jack had moved out. Anything but not the fact that Jack had died. It was so painful for me to admit that Jack had finally died when Ennis went to collect Jack's ashes from his parents. If that scene wasn't there, I still wouldn't believe that Jack had died but the most painful moment was when Ennis held the shirt Jack wore on the last day they were on Brokeback Mountain. My tears were uncontrollable then.
 
It's true that if Jack hadn't died, Ennis would never truly appreciate how much he loved him but if Jack had broken up with Ennis, it would have the same effect. The main point is making Ennis realize how important Jack is to him right? Maybe Jack could break up with Ennis and move to Mexico. Ennis drops by for a visit and saw how happy Jack is with his new partner and his heart aches for Jack but he wouldn't admit it. As usual he would just keep his silence until Jack's partner proposes (is that possible?) to Jack and he accepts. Ennis realizes that he would lose him forever if he didn't act so he fights for Jack's love and its a happy ending. I just love happy endings...

[tpe]

I felt the same way too!! I was so shocked when I saw the word 'Deceased' on the postcard. I thought someone else had died. I only realized it was Jack when Ennis made that phone call to Lureen. Even then, I still didn't want to believe that Jack had died. I thought it was Lureen's idea of keeping Jack away from Ennis or that Jack had moved out. Anything but not the fact that Jack had died. It was so painful for me to admit that Jack had finally died when Ennis went to collect Jack's ashes from his parents. If that scene wasn't there, I still wouldn't believe that Jack had died but the most painful moment was when Ennis held the shirt Jack wore on the last day they were on Brokeback Mountain. My tears were uncontrollable then.
 
It's true that if Jack hadn't died, Ennis would never truly appreciate how much he loved him but if Jack had broken up with Ennis, it would have the same effect. The main point is making Ennis realize how important Jack is to him right? Maybe Jack could break up with Ennis and move to Mexico. Ennis drops by for a visit and saw how happy Jack is with his new partner and his heart aches for Jack but he wouldn't admit it. As usual he would just keep his silence until Jack's partner proposes (is that possible?) to Jack and he accepts. Ennis realizes that he would lose him forever if he didn't act so he fights for Jack's love and its a happy ending. I just love happy endings...

Thanks for sharing this, lauren.  Interesting: your initial impression was that the postcard was Lureen's doing...

And I agree that whether jack died or simply broke off the relationship, the effect would have been the same.  Some kind of shock was needed to lift Ennis out of the rut, so to speak...

[lauren]

Thanks for sharing this, lauren.  Interesting: your initial impression was that the postcard was Lureen's doing...

And I agree that whether jack died or simply broke off the relationship, the effect would have been the same.  Some kind of shock was needed to lift Ennis out of the rut, so to speak...

Ennis was already in a pretty bad condition after their last meeting. He was expressionless even when Cassie confronted him and cried in front of him. All he need was a slight push, making him think that he was losing Jack and he would be running after him in no time. After all, it isn't hard to imagine Jack leaving him considering the things Jack had spoken during their last meeting and his twenty years of pent up anger. Its easy for Ennis thoughts to be running wild after that if he found out of a possible love affair between Jack and his neighbour or that Jack is moving in with another guy...

[tpe]

Ennis was already in a pretty bad condition after their last meeting. He was expressionless even when Cassie confronted him and cried in front of him. All he need was a slight push, making him think that he was losing Jack and he would be running after him in no time. After all, it isn't hard to imagine Jack leaving him considering the things Jack had spoken during their last meeting and his twenty years of pent up anger. Its easy for Ennis thoughts to be running wild after that if he found out of a possible love affair between Jack and his neighbour or that Jack is moving in with another guy...

So you thought that after the Final Confrontation, Ennis had a premonition of Jack possibly leaving him?  Well, it was true, although I bet the Ennis never imagined that the leave-taking would be in the form of an early and sudden death...

In any case -- Ennis shouldn't have took Jack's love for granted.  We don't have anything in this life forever...

[min]

So you thought that after the Final Confrontation, Ennis had a premonition of Jack possibly leaving him?  Well, it was true, although I bet the Ennis never imagined that the leave-taking would be in the form of an early and sudden death...

In any case -- Ennis shouldn't have took Jack's love for granted.  We don't have anything in this life forever...

Yes, I agree that Ennis took Jack's love for granted.  If they hadn't had what turned out to be their FC, he would have been happy to carry on with their fishing trips for the next 20 years IMO.

It was a hard lesson to learn that nothing in this life is forever...

[vedrana]

It's true that if Jack hadn't died, Ennis would never truly appreciate how much he loved him but if Jack had broken up with Ennis, it would have the same effect. The main point is making Ennis realize how important Jack is to him right? Maybe Jack could break up with Ennis and move to Mexico. Ennis drops by for a visit and saw how happy Jack is with his new partner and his heart aches for Jack but he wouldn't admit it. As usual he would just keep his silence until Jack's partner proposes (is that possible?) to Jack and he accepts. Ennis realizes that he would lose him forever if he didn't act so he fights for Jack's love and its a happy ending. I just love happy endings...

This is so true! I always believed that as much as it was Ennis' fault, Jack had his mistakes too, but his were made in the need of Ennis' love, and Ennis' mistakes were made cos of a fear.

I think that if Jack didn't die, they'll find a way to enjoy the sweet life, cos Jack wasn't the same man any more and he showed it clearly during FC! Ennis had to give in finally.

And it is just that - one small step that Ennis would have probably done to have a sweet life with Jack, made us even more anxious about Jack's death!  :\'(

[vedrana]

So you thought that after the Final Confrontation, Ennis had a premonition of Jack possibly leaving him?  Well, it was true, although I bet the Ennis never imagined that the leave-taking would be in the form of an early and sudden death...

In any case -- Ennis shouldn't have took Jack's love for granted.  We don't have anything in this life forever...

Isn't it partially Jack's fault too, to let Ennis treat him (and his love) like that?

[rimasworld]

And it is just that - one small step that Ennis would have probably done to have a sweet life with Jack, made us even more anxious about Jack's death!  :\'(
[/quote]
I'm not sure if Ennis could have ever committed totally ,but I think he was willing to try to change some after FC. Even though nothing was resolved, I think they both had given each other some food for thought that could have carried over if they had their next meeting and so on. Neither one of the boys could let go of each other for good after the reunion. They had to be in each other's lives some way, and really considering the time and where they lived, it was difficult for them. Death even didn't completely separate them since Jack was still with Ennis in his dreams and the shirts. Even though the ending is VERY sad, I think it is also so VERY moving and what makes it such a masterpiece in films.

[vedrana]

And it is just that - one small step that Ennis would have probably done to have a sweet life with Jack, made us even more anxious about Jack's death!  :\'(

I'm not sure if Ennis could have ever committed totally ,but I think he was willing to try to change some after FC. Even though nothing was resolved, I think they both had given each other some food for thought that could have carried over if they had their next meeting and so on. Neither one of the boys could let go of each other for good after the reunion. They had to be in each other's lives some way, and really considering the time and where they lived, it was difficult for them. Death even didn't completely separate them since Jack was still with Ennis in his dreams and the shirts. Even though the ending is VERY sad, I think it is also so VERY moving and what makes it such a masterpiece in films.

This is a very good point! Even after Jack's death, they are together in a way - Jack's spirit IS in the shirts and accompanies Ennis in his dreams.

And sure! If they ended up together, this story wouldn't have a half of it's power and influence on us. Still... I always daydream of them together, not only in spirit, but in body. Even then I am somehow melancholic and sad, cos that lovely summer on Brokeback is so sadly distant, that it hurts even if I see them together in my thoughts. How stupid this sounds, ha? 

[tpe]

Yes, I agree that Ennis took Jack's love for granted.  If they hadn't had what turned out to be their FC, he would have been happy to carry on with their fishing trips for the next 20 years IMO.

It was a hard lesson to learn that nothing in this life is forever...

Exactly, which only makes the final lesson all the harder for him to bear.  In a sense, it was his punishment.  If there is ever a moral to the story, this is probably it.

[tpe]

Isn't it partially Jack's fault too, to let Ennis treat him (and his love) like that?

Yes, but that fault is more forgivable, IMO.  He did it more for Ennis than for himself, of course.

Ennis also thought that he was doing Jack a favor by not giving in.  But unlike the case with Jack, it was really his underlying fear that was at the heart of his hesitation.

[tpe]

And it is just that - one small step that Ennis would have probably done to have a sweet life with Jack, made us even more anxious about Jack's death!  :\'(

I'm not sure if Ennis could have ever committed totally ,but I think he was willing to try to change some after FC. Even though nothing was resolved, I think they both had given each other some food for thought that could have carried over if they had their next meeting and so on. Neither one of the boys could let go of each other for good after the reunion. They had to be in each other's lives some way, and really considering the time and where they lived, it was difficult for them. Death even didn't completely separate them since Jack was still with Ennis in his dreams and the shirts. Even though the ending is VERY sad, I think it is also so VERY moving and what makes it such a masterpiece in films.

I also think that there was a change after the Final Confrontation.  Remember that in the story, the word "almost" was used in describing the situation after.  So the implication was that there was a slight change.  That we see Ennis finally put things to rest with Cassie is a clear indication that he had begun to move in the right direction.

[vedrana]

Yes, but that fault is more forgivable, IMO.  He did it more for Ennis than for himself, of course.

Ennis also thought that he was doing Jack a favor by not giving in.  But unlike the case with Jack, it was really his underlying fear that was at the heart of his hesitation.

Sure it's more forgivable! I could forgive Jack a lot of things....  many many things... 

As I said once, I can't resent him a thing. It is just that his uncontrollable love for Ennis took away his common sense and he wasn't thinking clear because of that love. Pity! Cos he also had few aces in his pocket! If he knew how to use them, things could've gone to the other side, the one of their sweet life...  :\'(

[tpe]

Sure it's more forgivable! I could forgive Jack a lot of things....  many many things... 

As I said once, I can't resent him a thing. It is just that his uncontrollable love for Ennis took away his common sense and he wasn't thinking clear because of that love. Pity! Cos he also had few aces in his pocket! If he knew how to use them, things could've gone to the other side, the one of their sweet life...  :\'(

I also think he was honestly trying to give Ennis the space he needed, fearing that to deny him that would make him like a skittish horse -- reacting "unproportionally" to every little thing/suggestion.  Jack probably thought that going slow was the best way to inevitably change Ennis...  Well, it later proved to be. that 20 years was clearly not enough time, so jack probably felt cheated out of those 20 years...

[vedrana]

I also think he was honestly trying to give Ennis the space he needed, fearing that to deny him that would make him like a skittish horse -- reacting "unproportionally" to every little thing/suggestion.  Jack probably thought that going slow was the best way to inevitably change Ennis...  Well, it later proved to be. that 20 years was clearly not enough time, so jack probably felt cheated out of those 20 years...

The best indicator of that was the scene when Jack arrives after Ennis divorced! OMG! That had to be more than devastating for Jack, still he only said: Well than, see you next month?!?! This is unbelievable! He should have knocked Ennis down like he had knocked Jack on Brokeback! But he just left, all in tears... damn Jack! You were such a henpecked!

Sure, after 20 years of patient waiting and deep understanding, when Jack figured out that Ennis hasn't changed a bit, he felt betrayed! And than he snapped, and was about to make a change in Ennis' world, but sadly he left for good....

[tpe]

The best indicator of that was the scene when Jack arrives after Ennis divorced! OMG! That had to be more than devastating for Jack, still he only said: Well than, see you next month?!?! This is unbelievable! He should have knocked Ennis down like he had knocked Jack on Brokeback! But he just left, all in tears... damn Jack! You were such a henpecked!

Sure, after 20 years of patient waiting and deep understanding, when Jack figured out that Ennis hasn't changed a bit, he felt betrayed! And than he snapped, and was about to make a change in Ennis' world, but sadly he left for good....

Yes, I thought that in that scene, he was almost superhuman.  He didn't even break down until he had driven away.

[vedrana]

Yes, I thought that in that scene, he was almost superhuman.  He didn't even break down until he had driven away.

Ennis saw that Jack was highly dissapointed, but he didn't know how much! Not that he didn't care, but there was always something more important than Jack!  :\'(

[tpe]

Ennis saw that Jack was highly dissapointed, but he didn't know how much! Not that he didn't care, but there was always something more important than Jack!  :\'(

Yes, I think Ennis didn't realize just how much it affected Jack.

[vedrana]

Yes, I think Ennis didn't realize just how much it affected Jack.

Hm... and even had he realize, would he have changed his mind and let Jack stay only for a day or two, if not completely give in??

[rimasworld]

Yes, I think Ennis didn't realize just how much it affected Jack.

Oh what we do for love. What happened in that scene would have been more than enough for a lot of people to quit someone. It was really awful and even though I know Ennis wasn't trying to be mean or blow Jack off, he did through his fear.

[tpe]

Hm... and even had he realize, would he have changed his mind and let Jack stay only for a day or two, if not completely give in??

I think Ennis was also sensitive to Jack's feelings.  He might have compromised had he known how Jack really felt, IMO.  But then again, perhaps he was blind by choice to the possibility of Jack hurting...

[tpe]

Oh what we do for love. What happened in that scene would have been more than enough for a lot of people to quit someone. It was really awful and even though I know Ennis wasn't trying to be mean or blow Jack off, he did through his fear.

Yes, I was actually thinking of how this in most real life situation whould have led to a break-up.  I would say that few people would have undergone such a treatment.