Topic: Which is the Greater Sorrow?

[tpe]

It must be so difficult to know/believe death is the real end. From all my heart I hope Ennis did believe in afterlife (such a nice and convenient word, thanks:-))

At the very least, Ennis in the end must have believed that Jack lives on -- under his (i.e., Ennis's) very skin.

[tpe]

Why do you think that Jack's love wasn't perfect? He was willing to do anything, to leave his own child (and wife), to go wherever Ennis would him to, he was patient, understanding... what more should've he done to have perfect love for Ennis? 

As much as in this world anything could be perfect, I think that his love was.

Well, no mortal love is perfect. 

But for Jack specifically -- he didn't have enough faith in Ennis's love for him.  And reciprocally, he felt that Ennis held back a part of himself, and he (i.e., Jack) somehow must have gotten the idea that even their love for each other had limits (i.e., read Proulx's passage on the Dozy Embrace.)

[myprivatejack]

I tend to agree with Thomas in that Jack's love wasn't perfect completely;firstly,for something so logical as to say that any human love is perfect,because any human being is neither...But also because,even if he had a lot of qualities we look for in any lover,he was as lack of real communication as Ennis was in another sense,maybe.As we have already said in other threads,his fear for losing Ennis avoid him to put things clearer enough many years before FC;for fear and,as Thomas says,maybe he wasn't too confident in Ennis love for him,maybe he wasn't too aware of the feelings his lover had for him.Maybe he wasn't so sure of himself as he seemed to be,and his fears made him loose Ennis little by little in some sense,thinking that saying his wishes in loud voice would make him run away...

[vedrana]

Well, no mortal love is perfect. 

But for Jack specifically -- he didn't have enough faith in Ennis's love for him.  And reciprocally, he felt that Ennis held back a part of himself, and he (i.e., Jack) somehow must have gotten the idea that even their love for each other had limits (i.e., read Proulx's passage on the Dozy Embrace.)

I tend to agree with Thomas in that Jack's love wasn't perfect completely;firstly,for something so logical as to say that any human love is perfect,because any human being is neither...But also because,even if he had a lot of qualities we look for in any lover,he was as lack of real communication as Ennis was in another sense,maybe.As we have already said in other threads,his fear for losing Ennis avoid him to put things clearer enough many years before FC;for fear and,as Thomas says,maybe he wasn't too confident in Ennis love for him,maybe he wasn't too aware of the feelings his lover had for him.Maybe he wasn't so sure of himself as he seemed to be,and his fears made him loose Ennis little by little in some sense,thinking that saying his wishes in loud voice would make him run away...

OK, no mortal love is perfect, that's right. But in the terms of that I see no faults in Jack's love.

He was afraid of losing Ennis. Is that a sign of an imperfection? Why it should be? Maybe he loved Ennis so much that he just couldn't bear to lose him.
Not to be confident in Ennis's love is a sign of an imperfection? Why should it it be? The pureness of his love was not a guaranty that Ennis's fears wouldn't overcome his love towards Jack.
For me these things are not the indicators of the imperfect love, but of human fear, of insecurity he felt in himself.

The limits were only the unfortunate circumstances in which this love took place and time. No other limits for Jack.

Jack was driving 14 hours to see Ennis after getting a note that he's divorced. After being rejected, he was ready to meet him the next month.... how much love and understanding anyone can have to be able to endure that. I am sure not many of us!

He comforted Ennis many times when he needed a comfort himself. Always with a deep understanding for him (Ennis).

He was ready to leave everything and everyone for Ennis. Without a second thought!

I can't see how his love could be more perfect.

[FlwrChild]

I had some thoughts on this myself but I'm not sure I could say it any better than loreen. I agree with that wholeheartedly.


More later if I can dust off my brain long enough to formulate a response.

[vedrana]

I had some thoughts on this myself but I'm not sure I could say it any better than loreen. I agree with that wholeheartedly.


More later if I can dust off my brain long enough to formulate a response.

Thanks for your kind words, but I'm sure you can formulate the respond much better than me! 

And I ain't foolin'!

[myprivatejack]

OK, no mortal love is perfect, that's right. But in the terms of that I see no faults in Jack's love.

He was afraid of losing Ennis. Is that a sign of an imperfection? Why it should be? Maybe he loved Ennis so much that he just couldn't bear to lose him.
Not to be confident in Ennis's love is a sign of an imperfection? Why should it it be? The pureness of his love was not a guaranty that Ennis's fears wouldn't overcome his love towards Jack.
For me these things are not the indicators of the imperfect love, but of human fear, of insecurity he felt in himself.

The limits were only the unfortunate circumstances in which this love took place and time. No other limits for Jack.

Jack was driving 14 hours to see Ennis after getting a note that he's divorced. After being rejected, he was ready to meet him the next month.... how much love and understanding anyone can have to be able to endure that. I am sure not many of us!

He comforted Ennis many times when he needed a comfort himself. Always with a deep understanding for him (Ennis).

He was ready to leave everything and everyone for Ennis. Without a second thought!

I can't see how his love could be more perfect.

You're the best Jack's defender,Loreen¡  No,all what you comment is not an imperfection for itself-maybe to love somebody madly and unconditionally is so?-,but what was imperfect-more or less-is the way he managed with these qualities of his love for Ennis.When I have said that he was afraid of losing him and that maybe he wasn't too aware of the greatness of his partner's love for him,I'm not saying that this is imperfect.   I'm saying that he had an unbearable lack of communication with Ennis to treat precisely these subjects,he waited too many years to talk about them until his explosion in FC.I don't know if this can't be called "an imperfection",but yes a fault,a mistake...
And,oh,come on¡...Ennis and Jack weren't any Gods or any supermen;they were just two human beings,with all that this word means.It's to say,they were imperfect,they had some faults and mistakes,THEY WERE HUMANS.It's for this same reason that we can see ourselves reflected in them,that we can feel their tragedy as ours; we feel them so close to us because they are just like any of us-including the negative parts-.JMHO.

[FlwrChild]

This is my take on Jack's love for Ennis:

First, I do think that he had faith in Ennis' love, even when Ennis couldn't admit to himself that that was what it was. His faith kept him going back for 20 years, despite the 'rejections', despite the fact that even between themselves they couldn't name what they meant to each other, and despite a sense of diminishing importance in Ennis' life. He kept the faith for both of them, holding their love in a special place inside just in case Ennis ever decided to come looking for it there.

And second, as to the communication issue, I've always said that I thought Jack understood very well how far he could tread with Ennis. His fears of pushing Ennis too far weren't an imperfection and his willingness to maintain the silence, keeping his feelings to himself, were born of the lessons he learned on those occasions when he did try to communicate more openly with Ennis. Each attempt to do so was met with a clear message of "Don't go there" or "I can't look at that too closely."

- "I ain't queer" elicits the necessary "Me neither" so as not to trigger Ennis' low startle point.

- "You gonna do this again next summer?" gets "Maybe not. I'm getting married." (this following the punch that was precipitated by Ennis's inability to handle Jack's attempt at comforting him - much too intimate a gesture for him to handle in that moment)

- "It could be like this..." gets him "I told you. It ain't gonna be like that."

- The divorce scene speaks for itself. :\'(

- "Maybe you should move" gets him mocked and belittled.

- And "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" is met with a heartbreaking silence.

I really don't think that Jack can be faulted for the lack of communication in their relationship. Each time he ventured to bring some open honesty to what he/they were feeling, Ennis made it only too clear that he wasn't willing to go there. And the risk that Ennis would get spooked and pull out of the relationship altogether was a very real one to Jack. I think he did what he needed to do for the sake of the relationship (and admittedly I bring some of my own personal baggage to that impression so I acknowledge this is why I feel so strongly about that point).

Did he do everything right? No, but I don't think that I would call that a mistake. And as mpj says, they were human with all the strengths and weaknesses that entails. And this is most definitely why we relate so strongly to their feelings and what they go through.

This is also why, as much as I too am willing to speculate about it, I also agree that we can't possibly compare their levels of sorrow against each other. Because at the end of the day, the gulf between them, both in life and in death, caused both of them more sorrow than I would ever wish on anyone.

[vedrana]

You're the best Jack's defender,Loreen¡  No,all what you comment is not an imperfection for itself-maybe to love somebody madly and unconditionally is so?-,but what was imperfect-more or less-is the way he managed with these qualities of his love for Ennis.When I have said that he was afraid of losing him and that maybe he wasn't too aware of the greatness of his partner's love for him,I'm not saying that this is imperfect.   I'm saying that he had an unbearable lack of communication with Ennis to treat precisely these subjects,he waited too many years to talk about them until his explosion in FC.I don't know if this can't be called "an imperfection",but yes a fault,a mistake...
And,oh,come on¡...Ennis and Jack weren't any Gods or any supermen;they were just two human beings,with all that this word means.It's to say,they were imperfect,they had some faults and mistakes,THEY WERE HUMANS.It's for this same reason that we can see ourselves reflected in them,that we can feel their tragedy as ours; we feel them so close to us because they are just like any of us-including the negative parts-.JMHO.

Babe, you know that I love Jack Twist so much so that I can't resent him anything....   

I am not saying that HE was perfect. If he really was, then he'd be able to make Ennis do anything. But Jack was human with all his personal imperfections. Still, he had a deep, pure, devoted and endless love for his Ennis. That's my stand here.

He did the best he could, and if he had known how to do better, I'm sure that he would've not saved any effort to do that. He would've done just anything that could make Ennis to stay with him forever. But he himself was human and he did many mistakes. These mistakes unfortunately had a direct impact on their relationship, but they didn't come from the imperfection of his love, but from the human imperfection per se.

[vedrana]

This is my take on Jack's love for Ennis:

First, I do think that he had faith in Ennis' love, even when Ennis couldn't admit to himself that that was what it was. His faith kept him going back for 20 years, despite the 'rejections', despite the fact that even between themselves they couldn't name what they meant to each other, and despite a sense of diminishing importance in Ennis' life. He kept the faith for both of them, holding their love in a special place inside just in case Ennis ever decided to come looking for it there.

And second, as to the communication issue, I've always said that I thought Jack understood very well how far he could tread with Ennis. His fears of pushing Ennis too far weren't an imperfection and his willingness to maintain the silence, keeping his feelings to himself, were born of the lessons he learned on those occasions when he did try to communicate more openly with Ennis. Each attempt to do so was met with a clear message of "Don't go there" or "I can't look at that too closely."

- "I ain't queer" elicits the necessary "Me neither" so as not to trigger Ennis' low startle point.

- "You gonna do this again next summer?" gets "Maybe not. I'm getting married." (this following the punch that was precipitated by Ennis's inability to handle Jack's attempt at comforting him - much too intimate a gesture for him to handle in that moment)

- "It could be like this..." gets him "I told you. It ain't gonna be like that."

- The divorce scene speaks for itself. :\'(

- "Maybe you should move" gets him mocked and belittled.

- And "Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" is met with a heartbreaking silence.

I really don't think that Jack can be faulted for the lack of communication in their relationship. Each time he ventured to bring some open honesty to what he/they were feeling, Ennis made it only too clear that he wasn't willing to go there. And the risk that Ennis would get spooked and pull out of the relationship altogether was a very real one to Jack. I think he did what he needed to do for the sake of the relationship (and admittedly I bring some of my own personal baggage to that impression so I acknowledge this is why I feel so strongly about that point).

Did he do everything right? No, but I don't think that I would call that a mistake. And as mpj says, they were human with all the strengths and weaknesses that entails. And this is most definitely why we relate so strongly to their feelings and what they go through.

This is also why, as much as I too am willing to speculate about it, I also agree that we can't possibly compare their levels of sorrow against each other. Because at the end of the day, the gulf between them, both in life and in death, caused both of them more sorrow than I would ever wish on anyone.

Well, as I predicted: this is such a beautiful post. 

I just want to explain my words about Jack not having the confidence in Ennis's love: he knew that Ennis loved him in his way. But the fear in Ennis was to strong that Jack always remained in the secured terrain, never moved from it. Did he have to be a little more persistent?  Maybe so! But even knowing that Ennis loved him (and after the reunion kiss who could suspect that love at all?), he didn't know when Ennis's love would be beaten by his fears and suppressed comprehension about their relationship. He wasn't confident what would prevail in Ennis in the certain moment.... if you can understand my words?

I believe that Jack had his chances during 20 years of "fishing" to make Ennis change his mind. Also, he should've never show so openly how he cared, coz that frightened stiffed Ennis even more, but obviously Jack also had his fears, not the same as Ennis, but with the same result - of destroying the chances for two of them.

As for their suffering I agree that during life they both suffered a lot in a different way as both of them were completely different persons, opposite I can say. Still, although I love Jack, I think that in the end Ennis got an extra, an earthly punishment for the rest of his life.
Jack (in the Brokeback Heaven) and Ennis on the Earth both know that they'll come together again, but Jack in peace, and Ennis in pain.... so the only part about the differences in their grief, I really have a firm stand on, is the part after Jack's death. Ennis payed his price then!

[FlwrChild]

Well, as I predicted: this is such a beautiful post. 

I just want to explain my words about Jack not having the confidence in Ennis's love: he knew that Ennis loved him in his way. But the fear in Ennis was to strong that Jack always remained in the secured terrain, never moved from it. Did he have to be a little more persistent?  Maybe so! But even knowing that Ennis loved him (and after the reunion kiss who could suspect that love at all?), he didn't know when Ennis's love would be beaten by his fears and suppressed comprehension about their relationship. He wasn't confident what would prevail in Ennis in the certain moment.... if you can understand my words?

I believe that Jack had his chances during 20 years of "fishing" to make Ennis change his mind. Also, he should've never show so openly how he cared, coz that frightened stiffed Ennis even more, but obviously Jack also had his fears, not the same as Ennis, but with the same result - of destroying the chances for two of them.

As for their suffering I agree that during life they both suffered a lot in a different way as both of them were completely different persons, opposite I can say. Still, although I love Jack, I think that in the end Ennis got an extra, an earthly punishment for the rest of his life. Jack (in the Brokeback Heaven) and Ennis on the Earth both know that they'll come together again, but Jack in peace, and Ennis in pain.... so the only part about the differences in their grief, I really have a firm stand on, is the part after Jack's death. Ennis payed his price then!

Oh, that is all so well said! Especially the bolded parts.

I'm not sure about Jack having other opportunities to change Ennis's mind. Or rather, I agree that there were opportunities but it's a difficult tightrope to walk between 'he had opportunities to change Ennis's mind' and "he should've never show so openly how he cared." That's not a lot to work with. And of course we'll never know if his patience all those years might have paid off someday, if Ennis might have finally come around, because they never had the chance to let their future play out. And for the faith in Ennis part, I guess what I meant was that it wasn't so much that he didn't have faith in Ennis' love, it was more that he knew what Ennis was capable of at that time. Again, this hits a little too close to home for me to be objective.

In any case, these bolded parts speak so perfectly of how I see our boys. Thank you.

[vedrana]

Oh, that is all so well said! Especially the bolded parts.

I'm not sure about Jack having other opportunities to change Ennis's mind. Or rather, I agree that there were opportunities but it's a difficult tightrope to walk between 'he had opportunities to change Ennis's mind' and "he should've never show so openly how he cared." That's not a lot to work with. And of course we'll never know if his patience all those years might have paid off someday, if Ennis might have finally come around, because they never had the chance to let their future play out. And for the faith in Ennis part, I guess what I meant was that it wasn't so much that he didn't have faith in Ennis' love, it was more that he knew what Ennis was capable of at that time. Again, this hits a little too close to home for me to be objective.

In any case, these bolded parts speak so perfectly of how I see our boys. Thank you.

Hi dear and thanks! 

Just to explain about Jack's chances during 20 years... Well, it is a long time and I always try to calculate how many times they have met, how much (little) happiness they have shared...  to go a little OT now - even Ennis's words in FC about them spending time in Don Wroe's cabin made my hurt heart suffer a little less for knowing that they at least one had a cozy, warm place to spend time together and somehow gave me a hope that during those years they had many many many beautiful moments together... OK, my computer is soaking now!  :\'( :\'( :\'(

So, in that light.. we don't know all the situations they had been through, so we don't know all the chances Jack had and maybe all times when Ennis was a bit softer than in awful divorce scene ( was he ever softer I wonder?)... those moments not known to us, Jack could've taken and made a progress with that stubborn Ennis! but he didn't! Unfortunately for both of them!   

Finally, none of us can be objective when it comes to our love for Ennis and Jack, I think!

[FlwrChild]

Aww c'mere.


Like you, I believe that they must have shared many beautiful moments over the years. Otherwise their time together wouldn't be worth making such efforts and sacrifices for. And you make a good point that we only see a tiny piece of their time together. Who knows what chances or moments to make changes might have come their way? I guess in the midst of our sorrow for them, we always have to remember the unique and beautiful love they had as well. 


And no, we'll never be objective in our love for Ennis and Jack, will we? 

[tpe]

It took me a while to read though all the wonderful posts here from yesterday.  Thanks all.   

I think that for me, the greater sorrow is not necessarily proportional to the greater love.  In fact, most of the time, we love a person most of all because of his imperfections.  I think this is not just true with the love of Jack for Ennis.  It is very true with Ennis's final realization of his love for Jack.  Many people miss this point, I think.  Ennis came to love and treasure the memory of Jack after death NOT IN SPITE of Jack's imperfection, but BECAUSE of it.  Ennis had not really realized until then how much Jack had also suffered.

[vedrana]

Aww c'mere.


Like you, I believe that they must have shared many beautiful moments over the years. Otherwise their time together wouldn't be worth making such efforts and sacrifices for. And you make a good point that we only see a tiny piece of their time together. Who knows what chances or moments to make changes might have come their way? I guess in the midst of our sorrow for them, we always have to remember the unique and beautiful love they had as well. 

And no, we'll never be objective in our love for Ennis and Jack, will we? 

It is just the greatness of that love that made our sorrow so difficult to bear. 
After my first PBS I feel like a former alcoholic - I take one day at the time, coz I never know when their sorrow is going to strike again, and what will cause it.

Nope, no objectivity! As much as we're not objective when it comes to our children, the same is with Ennis and jack. Coz they as well are the very part of us!

[vedrana]

It took me a while to read though all the wonderful posts here from yesterday.  Thanks all.   

I think that for me, the greater sorrow is not necessarily proportional to the greater love.  In fact, most of the time, we love a person most of all because of his imperfections.  I think this is not just true with the love of Jack for Ennis.  It is very true with Ennis's final realization of his love for Jack.  Many people miss this point, I think.  Ennis came to love and treasure the memory of Jack after death NOT IN SPITE of Jack's imperfection, but BECAUSE of it.  Ennis had not really realized until then how much Jack had also suffered.

Maybe not necessarily but almost always... I think. Coz why should you suffer for love if you don't really, deeply, truly love?

Hm... about imperfections that we love, I guess it is just the imperfections that can also make us hate the one who we loved!

I assume that your point is that Jack understood Ennis's suffer while he was alive, but it took the LF scene for Ennis to accept the truth about Jack's love and suffer? If so, I can agree with this. Still, as I said once, I believe that Ennis had started to open his eyes during FC, then during the conversation with Lureen, when he found out that Jack wanted to be buried on Brokeback and when he for the first time openly spoke put about their herding sheep, and the final strike and absolute clearness in his heart came with the shirts in Jack's room ...  :\'(

[tpe]

Maybe not necessarily but almost always... I think. Coz why should you suffer for love if you don't really, deeply, truly love?

Because true love usually entails sacrifices.  You have to die a bit before you say that you can truly say that you are in love.

Hm... about imperfections that we love, I guess it is just the imperfections that can also make us hate the one who we loved!

I assume that your point is that Jack understood Ennis's suffer while he was alive, but it took the LF scene for Ennis to accept the truth about Jack's love and suffer? If so, I can agree with this. Still, as I said once, I believe that Ennis had started to open his eyes during FC, then during the conversation with Lureen, when he found out that Jack wanted to be buried on Brokeback and when he for the first time openly spoke put about their herding sheep, and the final strike and absolute clearness in his heart came with the shirts in Jack's room ...  :\'(

I tend to think the other way -- that people who are too much alike and who seemingly look too perfect in their relationship are usually the ones to watch out for.  It's like faith -- you have to keep on questioning it; the day you stop questioning, you have stopped believing.

Sorrow can also be a constructive force, and I think that this was the case with Ennis after Jack died.  As for Jack, I think his remembering the DE the last time he met Ennis seems to suggest that the sorrow was also tempered.  He knew that he didn't love Ennis all those years in vain.

[vedrana]

Because true love usually entails sacrifices.  You have to die a bit before you say that you can truly say that you are in love.

I tend to think the other way -- that people who are too much alike and who seemingly look too perfect in their relationship are usually the ones to watch out for.  It's like faith -- you have to keep on questioning it; the day you stop questioning, you have stopped believing.

Sorrow can also be a constructive force, and I think that this was the case with Ennis after Jack died.  As for Jack, I think his remembering the DE the last time he met Ennis seems to suggest that the sorrow was also tempered.  He knew that he didn't love Ennis all those years in vain.

Still, the greater love mostly means a greater sorrow and your words in this post just confirm that.

I assume that the story about loving human imperfections is true, as long as the perfection in the relationship would be boring, at least. On the second thought, I think that you're right - it was just about Ennis's and Jack's imperfections which matched perfectly that drew them to each other.

Loving someone in vain? What is in vain or not in vain?? Jack loved devotedly, no matter what! 

_{That's why I love him - no matter what!}

[lancecowboy]

Sorry for missing the discussion for a while. There was enough sorrow so I had to take a break.

About imperfection...I think with love, the imperfections become endearing. They are the spices that make the relationship more interesting. They are no longer imperfections but characters; love makes us perfect in the eyes of the lover.

About greater sorrow from greater love...I don't know how to measure sorrow or love. What measurement does one take, to say this sorrow is greater or this love is greater. I think there can be qualitative measurements, for example, there is no greater love than to give one's life for a loved one. That's the ultimate measurement. But beyond that, what is the quantitative uncertainty, of Jack's love for Ennis...driving fourteen hours each way, two three times a year, for sixteen years...let's see...1345 hours over the years. And how about Ennis...his hours waiting for Jack that first time before bouncing down the stairs to kiss Jack...and those lonely hours in the bar, drinking beer after beer...and getting the cabin from Don Wroe, bringing the horses on his trailer year after year until he was broke, and could afford none no more. How do you measure love?

I really don't know who loves whom more.

Finally...I can't measure the sorrow by years of suffering, or depth of despair either. I dare say Ennis suffers longer, measured in years, but that's about all that can be said. Is it more painful to have your heart broken all at once, and face the pain of grief for years to come, as Ennis suffered after that postcard, that phone call; or is it more painful to have your heart broken one piece at a time, chipped away by the years of getting no where slowly with the love that is immovable from his circling the coffee pot? Jack and Ennis both suffered unnecessarily, because of old bigotry that never died, but lived on in young ones' memories.

What I love about Brokeback Mountain and Heath's performance in Jack's boyhood home, in the room kept just the way it was when Jack was a boy, is the liberation of Ennis from the young one's memories dominated and bullied all his life, into a new memory of love, shared with the love that he denied, and then in a flash, embraced with all his being and all his might a memory that was at that long moment seared into his soul as deeply as he breathed in Jack's scent from the shirt, as he took in the sight of the tiny room looking out into a desolate plain. That moment of liberation, although too late, was to me the climax and essence of Brokeback Mountain. I am sure others feel differently, as I have been told, but that's just me.

[tpe]

Still, the greater love mostly means a greater sorrow and your words in this post just confirm that.

I assume that the story about loving human imperfections is true, as long as the perfection in the relationship would be boring, at least. On the second thought, I think that you're right - it was just about Ennis's and Jack's imperfections which matched perfectly that drew them to each other.

Loving someone in vain? What is in vain or not in vain?? Jack loved devotedly, no matter what! 

_{That's why I love him - no matter what!}

Not necessarily.  Great love calls for great selflessness -- the ability to forget oneself and know the other in a way that transcends personal feelings/sorrows.  The greater the love, the greater the ability to suffer for the other, and in the language of love, that is NOT suffering.  Paradoxical? 

[tpe]

Sorry for missing the discussion for a while. There was enough sorrow so I had to take a break.

About imperfection...I think with love, the imperfections become endearing. They are the spices that make the relationship more interesting. They are no longer imperfections but characters; love makes us perfect in the eyes of the lover.

About greater sorrow from greater love...I don't know how to measure sorrow or love. What measurement does one take, to say this sorrow is greater or this love is greater. I think there can be qualitative measurements, for example, there is no greater love than to give one's life for a loved one. That's the ultimate measurement. But beyond that, what is the quantitative uncertainty, of Jack's love for Ennis...driving fourteen hours each way, two three times a year, for sixteen years...let's see...1345 hours over the years. And how about Ennis...his hours waiting for Jack that first time before bouncing down the stairs to kiss Jack...and those lonely hours in the bar, drinking beer after beer...and getting the cabin from Don Wroe, bringing the horses on his trailer year after year until he was broke, and could afford none no more. How do you measure love?

I really don't know who loves whom more.

Finally...I can't measure the sorrow by years of suffering, or depth of despair either. I dare say Ennis suffers longer, measured in years, but that's about all that can be said. Is it more painful to have your heart broken all at once, and face the pain of grief for years to come, as Ennis suffered after that postcard, that phone call; or is it more painful to have your heart broken one piece at a time, chipped away by the years of getting no where slowly with the love that is immovable from his circling the coffee pot? Jack and Ennis both suffered unnecessarily, because of old bigotry that never died, but lived on in young ones' memories.

What I love about Brokeback Mountain and Heath's performance in Jack's boyhood home, in the room kept just the way it was when Jack was a boy, is the liberation of Ennis from the young one's memories dominated and bullied all his life, into a new memory of love, shared with the love that he denied, and then in a flash, embraced with all his being and all his might a memory that was at that long moment seared into his soul as deeply as he breathed in Jack's scent from the shirt, as he took in the sight of the tiny room looking out into a desolate plain. That moment of liberation, although too late, was to me the climax and essence of Brokeback Mountain. I am sure others feel differently, as I have been told, but that's just me.

Well put. 

It is certainly hard to quantify love and its relationship to personal suffering.

And the role of memory...   

Liberation is not always joyful, but that does not mean that liberation is chained to suffering.  I think Ennis's sorrow inside the closet is one that does not lead the person to suicide or self negation.  It is a realization of true love that was both the root of his sorrow and his inevitable salvation through hope.

[lancecowboy]

Well put. 

It is certainly hard to quantify love and its relationship to personal suffering.

And the role of memory...   

Liberation is not always joyful, but that does not mean that liberation is chained to suffering.  I think Ennis's sorrow inside the closet is one that does not lead the person to suicide or self negation.  It is a realization of true love that was both the root of his sorrow and his inevitable salvation through hope.

Thanks, tpe, I was rather happy to put those words out there. They helped me solidify a few thoughts in my mind, and anchored them in place.

As you all already know, I saw that scene not as half empty but as half full, so I don't relate to the bolded part above, but the colored red part.

[vedrana]

Not necessarily.  Great love calls for great selflessness -- the ability to forget oneself and know the other in a way that transcends personal feelings/sorrows.  The greater the love, the greater the ability to suffer for the other, and in the language of love, that is NOT suffering.  Paradoxical? 

Hm.. this a a words game and a philosophy which I am not very good at. 

Are you saying that (e.g.) Jack's love for Ennis  being so true and so great allowed him to surpass the pain? I don't see it...

[tpe]

Thanks, tpe, I was rather happy to put those words out there. They helped me solidify a few thoughts in my mind, and anchored them in place.

As you all already know, I saw that scene not as half empty but as half full, so I don't relate to the bolded part above, but the colored red part.

I don't think it would be possible to think that Ennis could have ever contemplated suicide -- no proof, but that's the way I feel.  This is another indication that all was not lost.

[lancecowboy]

I don't think it would be possible to think that Ennis could have ever contemplated suicide -- no proof, but that's the way I feel.  This is another indication that all was not lost.

My thought exactly, tpe, and not only "no proof" but also "out of character".

[tpe]

My thought exactly, tpe, and not only "no proof" but also "out of character".

Exactly.  I think surrender of that kind was alien to the character, as developed by Proulx, Ang Lee, and Heath...

"If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it."  But I think -- in the end -- Ennis was able to stand it because he was now sure of his own ability to love.

[lancecowboy]

Exactly.  I think surrender of that kind was alien to the character, as developed by Proulx, Ang Lee, and Heath...

"If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it."  But I think -- in the end -- Ennis was able to stand it because he was now sure of his own ability to love.

"surrender" is an interesting word, thomas, I would choose another...Ennis is not a quitter. Jack might quit his different ventures, or not quit, but keep hold without making progress  (that's a different topic) . Ennis is not the type who quits, even divorcing Alma was not something he'd do easily.

Surrender implies submitting to another. In that sense, Ennis has been surrendering to his fears, to the memory of that treacherous event, to the authority figures in his life, all his life until Jack came along. I love the way Heath transformed Ennis from the quiet obedient Ennis in the trailer at the beginning, to the smoking, spitting, sidelong glancing resentful Ennis at the end, when Aquierre told 'em "all you ranch hand are never no good." The old Ennis would have kept still, internalize the put down, and blamed himself - surrender. The new Ennis with Jack by his side would take no BS from that old bully. The body language says so much. The fist unclenched a little after that summer, but clenched tight again in the alley.

Nope, Ennis would never quit. He'd kept going round the handle of that coffee pot, and stand it for as long as he could, even drinking beer after beer if he had to. The beauty of the sequence from the phone booth to Lightning Flat is precisely the discovery that you spoke of. In the kitchen with Jack's Ma, and in the closet with the two shirts, he found the love that he did not know existed, the love that he had all along, and could now claim for his own, no matter what.

[tpe]

"surrender" is an interesting word, thomas, I would choose another...Ennis is not a quitter. Jack might quit his different ventures, or not quit, but keep hold without making progress  (that's a different topic) . Ennis is not the type who quits, even divorcing Alma was not something he'd do easily.

Surrender implies submitting to another. In that sense, Ennis has been surrendering to his fears, to the memory of that treacherous event, to the authority figures in his life, all his life until Jack came along. I love the way Heath transformed Ennis from the quiet obedient Ennis in the trailer at the beginning, to the smoking, spitting, sidelong glancing resentful Ennis at the end, when Aquierre told 'em "all you ranch hand are never no good." The old Ennis would have kept still, internalize the put down, and blamed himself - surrender. The new Ennis with Jack by his side would take no BS from that old bully. The body language says so much. The fist unclenched a little after that summer, but clenched tight again in the alley.

Nope, Ennis would never quit. He'd kept going round the handle of that coffee pot, and stand it for as long as he could, even drinking beer after beer if he had to. The beauty of the sequence from the phone booth to Lightning Flat is precisely the discovery that you spoke of. In the kitchen with Jack's Ma, and in the closet with the two shirts, he found the love that he did not know existed, the love that he had all along, and could now claim for his own, no matter what.

Well, surrender has more than one meaning/connotation.    As I said, THAT kind of surrender was alien to Ennis's character.  But there is also such a thing as surrender to love or surrender to fate.

I think that if Jack taught Ennis anything in death, it was that he (Jack) lived a life of total surrender to his dream -- which was a dream of love.  It is precisely THIS form of surrender that Ennis understood in the end, and he is a stronger (not weaker) person because of it.

[vedrana]

Well, surrender has more than one meaning/connotation.    As I said, THAT kind of surrender was alien to Ennis's character.  But there is also such a thing as surrender to love or surrender to fate.

I think that if Jack taught Ennis anything in death, it was that he (Jack) lived a life of total surrender to his dream -- which was a dream of love.  It is precisely THIS form of surrender that Ennis understood in the end, and he is a stronger (not weaker) person because of it.

Love this! 

[lancecowboy]

Well, surrender has more than one meaning/connotation.    As I said, THAT kind of surrender was alien to Ennis's character.  But there is also such a thing as surrender to love or surrender to fate.

I think that if Jack taught Ennis anything in death, it was that he (Jack) lived a life of total surrender to his dream -- which was a dream of love.  It is precisely THIS form of surrender that Ennis understood in the end, and he is a stronger (not weaker) person because of it.

I don't mean to be bringing out the dictionary all the time, but we seem to be caught in some semantic interpretation web lately. 

1. to yield (something) to the possession or power of another; deliver up possession of on demand or under duress: to surrender the fort to the enemy; to surrender the stolen goods to the police.
2. to give (oneself) up, as to the police.
3. to give (oneself) up to some influence, course, emotion, etc.: He surrendered himself to a life of hardship.
4. to give up, abandon, or relinquish (comfort, hope, etc.).
5. to yield or resign (an office, privilege, etc.) in favor of another.

Before I looked up the meaning of surrender, I was going to suggest a different word to describe Jack and Ennis, their devotion to each other.

1. profound dedication; consecration.
2. earnest attachment to a cause, person, etc.
3. an assignment or appropriation to any purpose, cause, etc.: the devotion of one's wealth and time to scientific advancement.

In a sense, I can see what you mean by Jack's surrendering to his love for Ennis, to give himself up to the power of attraction to Ennis...the short leash, the fourteen hour drive each way. But in another sense, I also see Ennis' devotion to Jack, dedicating his life to those few times meeting each year, quitting job after job, losing a marriage, and countless opportunities like the job at the power plant, just to spend time with Jack.

Ennis also surrendered to a life of hardship, and his homophobia, until the revelation at the end with the two shirts, then he gained the power to shake free the self-imposed shackles, and gained strength from his devotion to the memory of Jack's love.

So, yeah, we are in agreement that Ennis was no quitter, and neither was Jack. They loved each other too much to quit. "I wish I knew how to quit you." was meant as "I can never quit...you/memory of you."