Author Topic: Foreplay...??? (Read 36237 times)

shieldmaid · « **Reply #30 on:** Mar 27, 2006, 09:37 PM »

I also had the impression, after my 4th viewing of the movie, that Ennis had maybe "warmed up" to the idea of their intimacy while still half-asleep (that's what the screenplay says; he's half-asleep and Jack's "wide awake" when this first tent scene happens) but then when he woke up some more he was startled and tried to pull away. Yet Jack already had some sense (feeling a certain hardness press against his back when he pulled Ennis toward him, perhaps?) that Ennis was aroused and interested, at least physically. That for me is why the "clear slick" is already available and why Ennis so quickly decides to unbuckle his own pants and join in with Jack.

Sorry if my description seems unnecessarily graphic--I actually think this scene is pretty touching, too, since we see Jack take off his jacket and lean in to kiss Ennis, and he pursues that kiss even against Ennis's initial resistance.

BTW, we don't hear Jack saying "gun's going off" in the movie, do we? I've always tried to listen in for that line from the story, but I can't hear it.

n061857 · « **Reply #31 on:** Mar 27, 2006, 09:52 PM »

I have listened also and have not heard that. Stupid me - I had never thought of a possible arousal in Ennis prior to the actual act before.

keren_b · « **Reply #32 on:** Mar 28, 2006, 08:18 AM »

Quote from: shieldmaid on Mar 27, 2006, 09:37 PM

I also had the impression, after my 4th viewing of the movie, that Ennis had maybe "warmed up" to the idea of their intimacy while still half-asleep (that's what the screenplay says; he's half-asleep and Jack's "wide awake" when this first tent scene happens) but then when he woke up some more he was startled and tried to pull away. Yet Jack already had some sense (feeling a certain hardness press against his back when he pulled Ennis toward him, perhaps?) that Ennis was aroused and interested, at least physically. That for me is why the "clear slick" is already available and why Ennis so quickly decides to unbuckle his own pants and join in with Jack.

yeah, even if there was no foreplay I also think that Ennis was pretty much aroused by then because he responded so quickly, he didn't need much time to overcome his initial resistance and hesitations. BTW, I'm not sure Jack was expecting that reaction from Ennis! he was hoping for his cooperation, sure, but this burst of animalistic passion and the way Ennis grabbed him and flipped him over, I bet Jack was *a little* taken by surprise...

bram · « **Reply #33 on:** Mar 28, 2006, 08:26 AM »

Quote from: keren_b on Mar 28, 2006, 08:18 AM

Quote from: shieldmaid on Mar 27, 2006, 09:37 PM
I also had the impression, after my 4th viewing of the movie, that Ennis had maybe "warmed up" to the idea of their intimacy while still half-asleep (that's what the screenplay says; he's half-asleep and Jack's "wide awake" when this first tent scene happens) but then when he woke up some more he was startled and tried to pull away. Yet Jack already had some sense (feeling a certain hardness press against his back when he pulled Ennis toward him, perhaps?) that Ennis was aroused and interested, at least physically. That for me is why the "clear slick" is already available and why Ennis so quickly decides to unbuckle his own pants and join in with Jack.

yeah, even if there was no foreplay I also think that Ennis was pretty much aroused by then because he responded so quickly, he didn't need much time to overcome his initial resistance and hesitations. BTW, I'm not sure Jack was expecting that reaction from Ennis! he was hoping for his cooperation, sure, but this burst of animalistic passion and the way Ennis grabbed him and flipped him over, I bet Jack was *a little* taken by surprise...

I had no doubt that Ennis was aroused before Jack woke him up. I just didn't think that there had been any actual "foreplay".

shieldmaid · « **Reply #34 on:** Mar 28, 2006, 09:14 AM »

Quote from: bram on Mar 28, 2006, 08:26 AM

Quote from: keren_b on Mar 28, 2006, 08:18 AM
Quote from: shieldmaid on Mar 27, 2006, 09:37 PM
I also had the impression, after my 4th viewing of the movie, that Ennis had maybe "warmed up" to the idea of their intimacy while still half-asleep (that's what the screenplay says; he's half-asleep and Jack's "wide awake" when this first tent scene happens) but then when he woke up some more he was startled and tried to pull away. Yet Jack already had some sense (feeling a certain hardness press against his back when he pulled Ennis toward him, perhaps?) that Ennis was aroused and interested, at least physically. That for me is why the "clear slick" is already available and why Ennis so quickly decides to unbuckle his own pants and join in with Jack.

yeah, even if there was no foreplay I also think that Ennis was pretty much aroused by then because he responded so quickly, he didn't need much time to overcome his initial resistance and hesitations. BTW, I'm not sure Jack was expecting that reaction from Ennis! he was hoping for his cooperation, sure, but this burst of animalistic passion and the way Ennis grabbed him and flipped him over, I bet Jack was *a little* taken by surprise...

I had no doubt that Ennis was aroused before Jack woke him up. I just didn't think that there had been any actual "foreplay".

I agree--I don't think foreplay occurs at all; they're overcome by their mutual lust. The second tent scene and the reunion kiss outside Ennis's apartment show us foreplay. Well, now that I say that, do we think that foreplay occurred after the cuddling we see in the second tent scene, or was a part of that cuddling? For me, I define cuddling as holding one another, stroking faces, etc., while foreplay is more sexually directed--kissing, stroking other parts of the body, etc. In the story, they're pressed tightly together--Proulx says chest, thighs, groins, etc. Seems like foreplay to me.

n061857 · « **Reply #35 on:** Mar 28, 2006, 10:04 AM »

I second that motion: forelpay and I think there was probably alot of cuddling after.

mactwck · « **Reply #36 on:** Apr 28, 2006, 08:19 PM »

I believe the iniamacy that Ms. Proux was speaking of is the friendship that develops bteween Ennis and Jack. As we women know you can be intimate with someone without ever touching them. (That sounds sexist, doesn't it?) The conversations that they had were intimate, hopes, dreams, etc....When they deepened their intimacy she meant they were finally physical. My two cents worth anyway.

shieldmaid · « **Reply #37 on:** Apr 29, 2006, 08:10 AM »

Quote from: mactwck on Apr 28, 2006, 08:19 PM

I believe the iniamacy that Ms. Proux was speaking of is the friendship that develops bteween Ennis and Jack. As we women know you can be intimate with someone without ever touching them. (That sounds sexist, doesn't it?) The conversations that they had were intimate, hopes, dreams, etc....When they deepened their intimacy she meant they were finally physical. My two cents worth anyway.

That's an interesting point--I hadn't thought about that, but I think that's at least part of it. They spend so much time getting to know each other, even taking care of each other (when Ennis gets hurt by falling off his horse, the "no more beans" exchange, etc.), that those moments are a kind of foreplay.

jason · « **Reply #38 on:** May 03, 2006, 12:01 PM »

Quote from: Toadily on Mar 16, 2006, 02:59 PM

I think that Proulx and the screen writers were saying is Ennis wouldn't have been open to foreplay at first, he was stunned by his feelings
so he dove in, remember this is Ennis, he fights things.

... the story also says, in the first half of that famous sentence which I don't see quoted, but which describes E in a central way, "Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, [and he wanted none of it when Jack siezed his left hand ...] ...

So thisw all rings true for me ... some alcohol, fear of foreplay at this ealry stage, and a violent approach to intense situations (e.g. Fourth of July scenes), ANDhis character trait of really going for something when he's decided to

shieldmaid · « **Reply #39 on:** May 04, 2006, 07:27 AM »

Quote from: jason on May 03, 2006, 12:01 PM

Quote from: Toadily on Mar 16, 2006, 02:59 PM
I think that Proulx and the screen writers were saying is Ennis wouldn't have been open to foreplay at first, he was stunned by his feelings
so he dove in, remember this is Ennis, he fights things.

... the story also says, in the first half of that famous sentence which I don't see quoted, but which describes E in a central way, "Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, [and he wanted none of it when Jack siezed his left hand ...] ...

So thisw all rings true for me ... some alcohol, fear of foreplay at this ealry stage, and a violent approach to intense situations (e.g. Fourth of July scenes), ANDhis character trait of really going for something when he's decided to

For me, this topic is also tied to Proulx's description of the scene in which Ennis holds Jack next to the campfire: "the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, not even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not want to see nor feel that it was Jack he held." Ennis has to acclimate himself gradually to the ideas of both foreplay and cuddling--but the desire to do so is definitely there.

FlwrChild · « **Reply #40 on:** May 05, 2006, 12:57 AM »

Quote from: proulxfan on Mar 15, 2006, 09:55 PM

One part of the short story still puzzles me and I'm curious as to how others interpret this:"'Jesus Christ, quit hammerin and get over here. Bedroll's big enough'...It was big enough, warm enough, and in a little while they had deepened their intimacy considerably." This is followed by Jack reaching over and grabbing Ennis's hand and, well,... you know the rest. But I wonder what Annie meant by deepening their intimacy...it's suggestive that there was some kind of touching, snuggling leading up to the "big moment". This line doesn't make it into the screenplay. Anybody else have some insight about this??

Here's my take:
"...and in a little while they had deepened their intimacy considerably" - insert implied message here - 'by which I mean' - and she goes on to explain just exactly how they deepened their intimacy. And in this case, I think intimacy only implies physical intimacy - they had quick, frantic sex. I don't think any amount of foreplay is implied. And as to the 'clear slick', it can show up pretty quickly (my turn to apologize for being graphic) and let's remember these are 19 year old guys we're talking about - arousal itself can take place pretty quickly! It all seemed pretty natural to me.
That having been said, on a personal note, I like how it played out on screen better than in the book. Just something about the wonderful way it was filmed. Great scene! Anyway, that's my two cents.

rug52861 · « **Reply #41 on:** May 05, 2006, 11:42 PM »

I believe the author did not mean physically intimate. She was referring to all the conversations they had previously had. They even exchanged the names of their boyhood dogs! These two knew more about each other than anyone else. I'm sure they revealed their hopes and dreams; their fears and worst nightmares that had come true. For E, it was losing his parents and not finishing high school. For Jack, it was having that horrid father and having that bathroom scene from the book imprinted on his psyche. Ennis was getting married in two months to Alma and I'm sure he hadn't revealed many things to her that he revealed to Jack. I just realized that as I write this, by the time the tent scene happened, they had fallen in love with each other, unbeknownst to themselves. Oh Wow!!!
I felt the tent scene was very real. Come on!! These guys were 19. Ennis and confessed to Jack he was a virgin in the Water Walking Jesus singing scene, remember! I don't believe it takes much to arouse a 19 year old virgin!!!
How do we quit this BBM syndrome??? I'm not sure I want to, but I can't keep perusing these sights every night!

Patriot1 · « **Reply #42 on:** May 06, 2006, 12:01 AM »

Quote from: rug52861 on May 05, 2006, 11:42 PM

I believe the author did not mean physically intimate. She was referring to all the conversations they had previously had. They even exchanged the names of their boyhood dogs! These two knew more about each other than anyone else. I'm sure they revealed their hopes and dreams; their fears and worst nightmares that had come true. For E, it was losing his parents and not finishing high school. For Jack, it was having that horrid father and having that bathroom scene from the book imprinted on his psyche. Ennis was getting married in two months to Alma and I'm sure he hadn't revealed many things to her that he revealed to Jack. I just realized that as I write this, by the time the tent scene happened, they had fallen in love with each other, unbeknownst to themselves. Oh Wow!!!
I felt the tent scene was very real. Come on!! These guys were 19. Ennis and confessed to Jack he was a virgin in the Water Walking Jesus singing scene, remember! I don't believe it takes much to arouse a 19 year old virgin!!!
How do we quit this BBM syndrome??? I'm not sure I want to, but I can't keep perusing these sights every night!

Welcome rug52861. Your first post here is a great one for me. I, for some reason, never thought about all the things they must have talked about. You are correct, they probably told each other things that Ennis never told his own brother. Very good observation. Hmmmmm.....I just have to rethink Ennis.

Patriot1 · « **Reply #43 on:** May 06, 2006, 12:05 AM »

Quote from: rug52861 on May 05, 2006, 11:42 PM

How do we quit this BBM syndrome??? I'm not sure I want to, but I can't keep perusing these sights every night!

Oh! I think the solution is to marry some guy who loves BBM also and then he can get on the forum one night and you the next. That way you cut your time in half. Of course while he is on the forum you can sit behind him and watch.

proulxfan · « **Reply #44 on:** May 07, 2006, 02:53 PM »

Quote from: Patriot1 on May 06, 2006, 12:05 AM

Quote from: rug52861 on May 05, 2006, 11:42 PM
How do we quit this BBM syndrome??? I'm not sure I want to, but I can't keep perusing these sights every night!

Oh! I think the solution is to marry some guy who loves BBM also and then he can get on the forum one night and you the next. That way you cut your time in half. Of course while he is on the forum you can sit behind him and watch.

...and maybe snuggle with him while you're at it, you know, put your arms around him, nuzzle him a bit and hum some half-remembered song in his ear...

Patriot1 · « **Reply #45 on:** May 07, 2006, 03:02 PM »

Quote from: proulxfan on May 07, 2006, 02:53 PM

Quote from: Patriot1 on May 06, 2006, 12:05 AM
Quote from: rug52861 on May 05, 2006, 11:42 PM
How do we quit this BBM syndrome??? I'm not sure I want to, but I can't keep perusing these sights every night!

Oh! I think the solution is to marry some guy who loves BBM also and then he can get on the forum one night and you the next. That way you cut your time in half. Of course while he is on the forum you can sit behind him and watch.

...and maybe snuggle with him while you're at it, you know, put your arms around him, nuzzle him a bit and hum some half-remembered song in his ear...

Well you know Proulxfan, I thought of that... and more, but figured if that happened neither of us would ever be on the forum for more than a minute a night. :o

proulxfan · « **Reply #46 on:** May 07, 2006, 06:53 PM »

Well, that would just force you to be very concise! :D :D And the forum, blessed though it be, isn't everything.

Rønnaug · « **Reply #47 on:** Jun 03, 2006, 06:23 PM »

I think that depening their intimacy only means they lay very close to eachother... they hadn't touched apart from the handshake at the first meeting outside Aguirres trailer, and when Jack tried to clean Ennis wound after the bear incident. Even that last time I am not sure it was more than fingers brushing quickly...

They lay next to eachother sleeping, Jack mayby arching slowly closer to Ennis over a certain amout of time so that when he did reach over they were right next to eachother. ... look at the scene in the film... it pans over them and you see that Jack has alot of bedroll on his side... It was cold... They got warm... thats my opinion.

ms.bluesky · « **Reply #48 on:** Jul 15, 2006, 03:07 PM »

i really dont know i would have like to see some cuddling before the sex scene but whatever

FulOfSadness · « **Reply #49 on:** Aug 02, 2006, 05:26 PM »

I think they were just sleeping close. In the short story Annie says 'Ennis wanted nothing of it when Jack grabbed his hand and pulled it to his erected <0<k.' Like in the movie, they were sleeping till Jack made the first move. If him and Ennis had been cuddling, i don't think Ennis would of 'wanted none of it'.

Silk · « **Reply #50 on:** Aug 03, 2006, 02:30 PM »

First intimacy began when Ennis finnally opened up and began to talk about himself to Jack. Jack said that is more than you have said in two weeks. They were going close and giving up their inner struggles to one another. That is how intimacy begins.

Jack was sleeping and I think he unconsiously reached over for Ennis' arm to warm himself and bring him closer for warmth but that simple jesture threw them into confronting advancement on the intimacy. Ennis was surprised and a bit angry which when he looked at Jack and saw the love in his eyes he gave into a sudden feeling of attraction and lust. It was like a dance from that first talk when Ennis gave up a part of himself he had never given up to anyone. Isn't that how a love begins first giving up your inner soul and heart before you give the ultimate with your body.

Anyway that is how I see it.

FulOfSadness · « **Reply #51 on:** Aug 10, 2006, 08:05 PM »

Quote from: ejr on Aug 10, 2006, 08:01 PM

Quote from: FulOfSadness on Aug 02, 2006, 05:26 PM
I think they were just sleeping close. In the short story Annie says 'Ennis wanted nothing of it when Jack grabbed his hand and pulled it to his erected <0<k.' Like in the movie, they were sleeping till Jack made the first move. If him and Ennis had been cuddling, i don't think Ennis would of 'wanted none of it'.
Don't be too sure, Ennis was behind Jack and maybe Jack kinda felt something poking him and thought that Ennis was making the first move. After all, Ennis must have already been aroused because the sex happened instantainously.

Of course thats possible, but thats not the same thing as 'cuddling' Ennis's erection sticking into Jack's back isn't cuddling.

I'm saying i don't think he was like smooching him, or anything like that.

chameau · « **Reply #52 on:** Aug 10, 2006, 08:49 PM »

Quote

Ennis was behind Jack and maybe Jack kinda felt something poking him and thought that Ennis was making the first move. After all, Ennis must have already been aroused because the sex happened instantainously.

That's a very good point Ejr

Plus the fact Ennis was drunk so inhibitions were very low.

keren_b · « **Reply #53 on:** Aug 10, 2006, 11:42 PM »

Quote from: chameau on Aug 10, 2006, 08:49 PM

Quote
Ennis was behind Jack and maybe Jack kinda felt something poking him and thought that Ennis was making the first move. After all, Ennis must have already been aroused because the sex happened instantainously.

That's a very good point Ejr

Plus the fact Ennis was drunk so inhibitions were very low.

Yes, but I agree with fullofsadness, that's not foreplay. I don't think Ennis was ready for foreplay by this point, a quick f**k yes, but no forplay. I tend to think that by "deepened their intimacy considerably" Annie meant that they were simply lying very close to each other and got aroused, but when Jack seized Ennis's hand and placed it on his erection (an attempt to initiate foreplay, perhaps) Ennis "wanted none of it" and just grabbed him and went for it.

lauren · « **Reply #54 on:** Nov 23, 2006, 12:02 AM »

i love this topic...

although i've never read the screenplay but i hope i can do so someday...btw, thanx for sharing all of all views on that scene. it really brightened by horizons on what really happened that night in the tent. i thought that scene was too fast. one minute there were sleeping and the next sex took place...what i can say is wow!

Del Mar Twist · « **Reply #55 on:** Dec 23, 2006, 09:55 AM »

To me the answer is in the short story. In the short story both Jack and Ennis are more like movie Ennis, the quiet type. In the movie Jack was more open and friendly. The intimacy part comes into the story through them opening up to each other and becoming friends, before this they were very solitude types.

In the tent Jack was aroused, that much we know, and perhaps Ennis was also, not all arousals are from sexual feelins. Ennis had been drinking and he might have been aroused due to that strain, but when Jack initiated the sexual contact it quickly became a sexual arousal, it does happen.

After reading the short story, which was written very well, I prefer the movie. Being a short story, the plot moved too fast, and that connection was just made too fast. We know Jack had these feelings, but Ennis never did, and then after one night he changes, the next morning there were no doubts, like there was in the movie.